Wales v Georgia: Autumn Nations Cup Round 2.

First topic message reminder :

Wales play a Georgia team they dispatched with ease 12 months ago yet the situation is very different.7 losses in a row. JD2 injured. Defence coached sacked.

Wales' biggest weakness appears to be up front in the pack and given Georgia will fight and wrestle all day long, this could be Georgia's best chance to beat an established tier 1 team like Wales in a long, long time.

Botham and McNicholl called up. Hard to argue with the latter on the basis of talent. The former seems to be more of a steady, workmanlike option than the talent Wales so clearly need in the team, particularly in the 10 and 12 shirts.

Georgia really must fancy their chances against this Welsh team. I can see it being one for the purists as a nervous, ill disciplined, and ragged Welsh team is likely to struggle up against a big, bruising pack with a solid set piece. This might be a game that is played around the halfway line and goes from set piece to set piece, mistake to mistake. Neither team seems to have much in the way of a cutting edge and both have no hope of progressing to the final rounds of this 'tournament'.

It should stop the losing streak for Pivac, but the fact that it might not has to be playing on the coaches' minds. Lose, and that has to be curtains for Pivac and co. No pressure...



Wales:

Liam Williams; Johnny McNicholl, Nick Tompkins, Johnny Williams, Louis Rees-Zammit; Callum Sheedy, Kieran Hardy; Wyn Jones, Elliot Dee, Samson Lee, Jake Ball, Seb Davies, James Botham, Justin Tipuric (capt), Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Sam Parry, Nicky Smith, Leon Brown, Cory Hill, James Davies, Rhys Webb, Ioan Lloyd, Jonah Holmes.

LondonTiger wrote:This is the last thread in this page........

.. and this is a new page

rugby racing and beer wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one please tell me what Tipuric did last week against Ireland not only to keep his place, but take the captains arm band?

Turnover on the line, good line speed and kick chase pressure, good hands in the wide channels, put in more of a leader's performance than AWJ...

...do you want more?

So is it fare to say AWJ as played his last game for Wales, either has a player or as captain of the Welsh team?

majesticimperialman wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one please tell me what Tipuric did last week against Ireland not only to keep his place, but take the captains arm band?

Turnover on the line, good line speed and kick chase pressure, good hands in the wide channels, put in more of a leader's performance than AWJ...

...do you want more?

So is it fare to say AWJ as played his last game for Wales, either has a player or as captain of the Welsh team?

As this seems very much a development team, with a sprinkling of experience, then no, it is not fair to say that imo. The Wales XV for the following week against England will be much more informative on where Pivac is going with his selections.

majesticimperialman wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Can some one please tell me what Tipuric did last week against Ireland not only to keep his place, but take the captains arm band?

Turnover on the line, good line speed and kick chase pressure, good hands in the wide channels, put in more of a leader's performance than AWJ...

...do you want more?

So is it fare to say AWJ as played his last game for Wales, either has a player or as captain of the Welsh team?

No I don't think so. It's always hard to judge players when they're his age, I think some players get retired early by coaches when in reality age can simply be just a number.

AWJ hasn't been quite as consistent as he was in his prime for a few years now. I'd say you saw that on the 2017 Lions tour, it was either the first or second test that he looked off the pace in. But he bounced back and put in a great performance.

As he gets older, I think it's clear to see that he'll have more quiet/ineffective periods in games, and less gamechanging or dominant periods. How that manifests in terms of Wales, the Lions, and even club rugby all is sort of up in the air - judging rugby is very hard at the moment with the lockdown. It would be foolish to make too many black and white judgements on the back of such weird times and with so little rugby played.

As for his captaincy, off the field he is clearly the leader, and the captain's responsibilities by all accounts are far more organisational than inspirational. Particularly these days, they're a liason between player and coach. The leadership team will include Ken Owens, JD2, Tipuric, and to a lesser extent Sanjay, Biggar, and 1/2P. These players have been around for about a decade, they have the leadership skills we need on and off the field to help the team.

If AWJ cannot bounce back and if, say, Wales start playing better but he does not, then it's not major issue - it'll be a shame, but Tipuric is the obvious next leader off the line to be captain and it's not as if we're losing AWJ in his prime. We've probably squeezed the years out of AWJ than we lost from Warburton retiring before he was 30.

I wouldn't writ him off and you're probably WUMming but no I don't think it's fair to think he's played his last game. When he plays well he's still the best Welsh lock but when he doesn't, I think Jake Ball is a more reliable player in the position, and certainly more useful for Wales. The lack of quality in the position means he'll still be in with a shout for a while yet, if he's happy playing a bit part role I could see him hanging on until 2023.

First of all I am not saying AWJ should hang up his boots just yet. I do think he should think about it though.

He is the most capped player in the history. the game. He as not looked any where near the same player he was this time last year.

It is a pitty that since the RWC, when Pivac took over that the result of the last 6 games as been losses and he is not going out in a Blaze of glory.

Whilst it’s pretty obvious indeed what Madge is up to, that’s a good response to him.

I’d also add, that AWJ is probably the most durable of our locks (hope I don’t jinx him), so is always going to be involved up to the next RWC. I hope it is a WUM (a very poor one too) to suggest that he will never play for Wales again, as I’m sure nobody could be that short of rugby knowledge as much as they try to prove otherwise.

If we're building for the next RWC as Pivac et al have said, why have they not begun phasing him out? Even if we did phase him out I would still keep him around in some sort of consultancy or management role, but either way it's another blunder from Pivac. I suppose he isn't helped mind, there aren't many other locks available. Davies and Beard look in absolutely awful form. Seb Davies is too soft for rugby (and still selected by Pivac). Morgan Jones, Rhys Davies and Will Griffiths are going to need a lot of game time going forward - they look very good and hungry with the limited opportunities they've been afforded.

All reminds me a bit of England 15 years ago. A number of undropable players who werent performing at their previous best and seemed aloof to addressing that or respecting they way they were being asked to play and a paucity of new players to lift the mood and offer viable alternatives.

Once the rot of losses sets in theres a no win (pun not intended) situation for a coach in selections.

I think its quite brave of Pivac to make this statement in this game. Gives him a chance to see if the next generation is more able to buy into what he wants and execute his brand of rugby. They might not be the best individuals now but thats not always what makes the best team.

The French coach took a really brave approach to his selections and has been rewarded. Of course it was much easier from him since the bar of previous performances has been set much lower, and he had a golden generation of 21ish year olds to pick. Pivac doesn't quite have that luxury, and is also faced with a bit of an injury crisis. Howley of course got hammered for his conservative selections in the games he was in charge for, before and after he lost.

If the rest gives the likes of AWJ a chance to pick themselves up, and if the pressure of young players performing well in this game makes him respond in a positive way then Pivac will look like a genius. Either way I doubt it will be his last cap, and certainly had he been given that message there would've been leaks to the media to that effect.

Then again if this is just a scrappy win for Wales (don't think the loss is a realistic prospect) its only going to increase the ill feeling from the media to him and low mood in the camp.

I actually don't think it's a bad time for some of our older players to not be performing. Had we been 6 months out from a WC and Davies, Biggar, AWJ, Tipuric and Halfpenny had only just started to not play well, there's very little time for the next generation to bed in. With 3 years to go, while some of those names may regain their high levels, players like Johnny Williams, Sheedy, Seb Davies, Botham and LRZ have the opportunity to win their place, and be on 20 caps by the time 2023 comes around.

I have deliberately chosen to not include Faletau in that list, even though he hasn't been dominant over the last 3 games, his error count in a pack that has been bettered in every match is negligible. I still think he's top class and hopefully he has an opportunity to show on the Lions tour again what a brilliant player he is.

It's not like England at all.

England were blinded by their success. They were world champions, had dominated NH rugby for years, and expected the new guard to continue the legacy. When it became clear they had had a golden generation and that Woodward had added professionalism to aid the talented players, it was all a bit too late, the momentum had been lost and Robinson and Ashton were clearly not up to the job as an international head coach, for different reasons. There was also the fact that NZ were just about to create probably the best team they've had over the next 10 years as Henry, McCaw, and Carter laid the foundations for back to back RWCs and dominated a Lions tour. The international game developed a lot and England's style of rugby was left behind as other countries caught up or surpassed them in the professional stakes. England still dragged themselves to a WC final in 07. I'd say the period between 07-2011 was just as bad tbh as England were just as poor.

Wales are under no such pretences, have no such success to blind them, are well aware of their failings at club/regional level, are well aware of the international standard being pushed by other teams across the world.

It's not a particularly relevant comparison to make. A better one would probably be Scotland at the start of this decade, at least in terms of playing style and failure and team replenishment.

For all of Wales' perceived success, they won one 6Ns since 2013 and were in my eyes being left behind by the size of other countries. I've said it before by Ian Evans, Hibbard, Warburton, Roberts...these were big, big men and we haven't replaced their stature in the team and that's partly why the side is relatively easy to bully. Particularly so since Gatland left, but in all honesty SA showed how far Wales are off the physical standards in the RWC. Wales did unbelievably well to stay competitive in that game consider the size/power differential which was evident in basically every tackle.

For me, Scotland's main issue is power as well and Wales look like we're back having that issue as Pivac is asking them to play passing rugby that doesn't appear to be suitable to the test game at the moment. I don't think Wales are hampered by anything like England had after 2003, it's just not comparable other than replacing a coach and set up that was part of the furniture.

Wales aren't actually an old team. Only AWJ, Ken Owens, and JD2 are likely to retire before the next RWC. That's not exactly the England of 2003. Tipuric, Liam Williams, Halfpenny...they still have plenty of rugby left in them. The issue is the players who retired over the last 5 years, not the ones who are coming to an end now, and the fact that for the most part the individuals replacing them aren't as test match ready because: a. the regions are poor and don't prepare them for a higher standard of rugby b. Gatland's tactics minimised lack of talent, Pivac's relies on individual ability c. we're in the middle of a pandemic and it's very hard to build anything of note, let alone 'progressive' rugby as you might call it.

Pivac's done the right thing in picking a player like Rowlands to add bulk. He's given Watkin and Tompkins a shot at 12 and now Bleddyn and Haloholo will likely get a chance as well. He's done the right thing in looking at Wainwright as an 8 - for me, that's the position it's become fairly obvious he has to be tried in due to lack of options there, his potential as a carrier, and his lack of grit as a 6. He's trying to address the power gap Wales have compared to England, France, and even the Irish pack but it's tough when we're all in an arms race and the likes of Ireland and France just pick South Africans and pretend that's nationally representative rugby. Quinn Roux and CJ Stander...what they would add to this Welsh side in terms of bulk.

It's a completely different landscape to 2003 and England. It's not the right comparison to make. Wales has its own unique problems and I genuinely don't think the media outrage is all that genuine/bad. Everyone saw Wales play decent but flawed rugby in the Six Nations and although they've been poorer since lockdown, that's to be expected given the lack of rugby played and the sheer weirdness of the situation.

Everyone started taking notice of rugby in England after the RWC win. They became superstars overnight. But their captain retired after the game, Wilkinson was injured for 4 years, and the team started losing unthinkable games. It's not the same situation in Wales. We didn't expect Wales to be the same side - just look at the regions. Gatland came in, picked the Ospreys team that was one of the best sides in Europe, and beat England in his first game in charge. You can say Pivac had it 'better' than Gatland but I'd contest that, it's more complex than that.

If you look at hte 6Ns stats then they'retelling: Wales made something like the most passes, the most offloads, the most linebreaks, but also made the most knock ons, turned the ball over the most...they're genuinely trying to rip up and play a harder style of rugby. Bigger risk, bigger reward. It's just not working and they probably lost their nerve v Scotland despite not really being threatened by them. They only started playing v Ireland once the game was lost. Something's not right, clearly, but that doesn't mean it won't be fixed unlike England, who had to basically bin the coach and go back to up the jumper 10 man rugby in 2007.

mikey_dragon wrote:If we're building for the next RWC as Pivac et al have said, why have they not begun phasing him out?

Ask Haskell, Hartley, and Robshaw. There's an easy answer to that one that doesn't take a lot of time or effort to discover.

In terms of selections, I like what Pivac has done from day one. He's clearly got that one right, as he has when it comes to players outside Wales.

It's the performances that haven't been up to scratch and as a result there are question marks over certain positions.

These, really, are the only positions that have been nailed down under Pivac;

3. Francis
5. AWJ
7. Tipuric
11. Adams
13. JD2

Ken Owens, Faletau, and Liam/Halfpenny would also probably claim starting status as well but the first two haven't played enough to be certain of that just yet.

At 1, they gave Carre at chance to say 'go and make the shirt your own' but he hasn't taken it. No problem, we have good depth there, and Rob Evs to come back as well - almost a 50 cap international, good player, over his injury problems, and better in the loose than any of the other 1s.

At 4, it looks like Jake Ball has taken that position as Rowlands hasn't done a lot and Hill is a bit lightweight, but really it's up for grabs with Ball's injury issues. Again, a few options, none outstanding.

At 6, he tried Wainwright, didn't work, now SLH has done ok, and Botham gets a crack. Navidi, Moriarty, Ellis Jenkins waiting in the wings too. Depth, but no one is dominant, hence moving Wainwright to 8 - hopefully long term.

9 is probably Rhys Webb but age is against him. He's clearly the most talented 9 but fortunately no lack of options here, several good players.

10 is...honestly, who knows. This is the big one for how the team wants to play. Sheedy, Ioan Lloyd in with a great opportunity tomorrow. Several youngsters at the regions ready and waiting to replace Biggar and Anscombe if the latter never makes it back: AOB, Costelow, Sam Davies, Jarrod. All should win caps but only if the two Bristol youngsters don't make it.

12 is obvious, 13 likewise given JD2's injury/age issues and many of the 12 players may end up at 13 - namely Tompkins.



The options are decent. It's just a bit like Lancaster's England - several options in each position, no one really dominant or outstanding in each, which raises the prospect of constantly rotating instead of letting boys get settled.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:If we're building for the next RWC as Pivac et al have said, why have they not begun phasing him out?

Ask Haskell, Hartley, and Robshaw. There's an easy answer to that one that doesn't take a lot of time or effort to discover.

Dumb response.

rugby racing and beer wrote:In terms of selections, I like what Pivac has done from day one. He's clearly got that one right, as he has when it comes to players outside Wales.

It's the performances that haven't been up to scratch and as a result there are question marks over certain positions.

These, really, are the only positions that have been nailed down under Pivac;

3. Francis
5. AWJ
7. Tipuric
11. Adams
13. JD2

He hasn't got all his selections right at all.

Most if not all the performances haven't been up to scratch - not such a contentious view either.

In your opinion, thought I'd remind you seeing as you still struggle between opinion and fact. A highly contentious one at that if you've watched all our recent games. Adams is assured his place but I don't think the others are. AWJ should remain but be phased out as I and others have alluded to.

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:If we're building for the next RWC as Pivac et al have said, why have they not begun phasing him out?

Ask Haskell, Hartley, and Robshaw. There's an easy answer to that one that doesn't take a lot of time or effort to discover.

Dumb response.

But it's not, is it, your question is too facile. We have a perfect blueprint of how to develop a team while 'building towards a World Cup' (like everyone is, all the time). England reached a RWC final aided by 3 key men who weren't there. AWJ is in the same boat whether he makes it or not. Dropping him now when the team has major structural issues is pointless. You'd also do well to talk rugby and not just spout insults.

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:In terms of selections, I like what Pivac has done from day one. He's clearly got that one right, as he has when it comes to players outside Wales.

It's the performances that haven't been up to scratch and as a result there are question marks over certain positions.

These, really, are the only positions that have been nailed down under Pivac;

3. Francis
5. AWJ
7. Tipuric
11. Adams
13. JD2  

He hasn't got all his selections right at all.

Come on then, instead of just insulting people, let's have a discussion about rugby.

Why do you think that?

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:If we're building for the next RWC as Pivac et al have said, why have they not begun phasing him out?

Ask Haskell, Hartley, and Robshaw. There's an easy answer to that one that doesn't take a lot of time or effort to discover.

Dumb response.

But it's not, is it, your question is too facile. We have a perfect blueprint of how to develop a team while 'building towards a World Cup' (like everyone is, all the time). England reached a RWC final aided by 3 key men who weren't there. AWJ is in the same boat whether he makes it or not. Dropping him now when the team has major structural issues is pointless. You'd also do well to talk rugby and not just spout insults.

It was just a dumb reply, I haven't insulted anyone unless that person is a complete snowflake. I really shouldn't have to be explaining this . Posters were also warned not to make feeble complaints, I guess someone hasn't heeded that warning. It's clear that it's not only me who thinks that post was a dumb one, it's going for record dislikes again. My question was more of a rhetorical one anyway in response to what other posters have said. I haven't called for him to be dropped, not once. So if that is what you have surmised then you are struggling with basic comprehension.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:In terms of selections, I like what Pivac has done from day one. He's clearly got that one right, as he has when it comes to players outside Wales.

It's the performances that haven't been up to scratch and as a result there are question marks over certain positions.

These, really, are the only positions that have been nailed down under Pivac;

3. Francis
5. AWJ
7. Tipuric
11. Adams
13. JD2  

He hasn't got all his selections right at all.

Come on then, instead of just insulting people, let's have a discussion about rugby.

Why do you think that?

I haven't insulted anyone. I find it a bit rich coming from you anyway - each clueless comment posted dripping in irony and self-importance. This forum isn't enjoyable when you're around I'm sorry to say.

Well the answer is simple, he's made blunders in squad and matchday selection. I've already said Pivac hasn't been helped a great deal, but he still made the calls. I've been consistent in my views, I don't change them week by week like you in an attempt to try and appear clever.

Have to say even though england are playing one of the things I'm most looking forward to is Rees-Zammit. Hope he gets the ball a fair bit.

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:If we're building for the next RWC as Pivac et al have said, why have they not begun phasing him out?

Ask Haskell, Hartley, and Robshaw. There's an easy answer to that one that doesn't take a lot of time or effort to discover.

Dumb response.

But it's not, is it, your question is too facile. We have a perfect blueprint of how to develop a team while 'building towards a World Cup' (like everyone is, all the time). England reached a RWC final aided by 3 key men who weren't there. AWJ is in the same boat whether he makes it or not. Dropping him now when the team has major structural issues is pointless. You'd also do well to talk rugby and not just spout insults.

It was just a dumb reply, I haven't insulted anyone unless that person is a complete snowflake.

But it's not, and it's a perfect reposte to your seemingly rhetorical 'why'. There's your why: it neatly counters your point. Your question was flawed by its severe limitations - you possibly hadn't thought about, let alone expected, someone to answer your 'why' and as such don't know how to defend your assertion - and you don't seem to understand that, hence having to respond to insults.

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:In terms of selections, I like what Pivac has done from day one. He's clearly got that one right, as he has when it comes to players outside Wales.

It's the performances that haven't been up to scratch and as a result there are question marks over certain positions.

These, really, are the only positions that have been nailed down under Pivac;

3. Francis
5. AWJ
7. Tipuric
11. Adams
13. JD2  

He hasn't got all his selections right at all.

Come on then, instead of just insulting people, let's have a discussion about rugby.

Why do you think that?

I haven't insulted anyone. I find it a bit rich coming from you anyway - each clueless comment posted dripping in irony and self-importance. This forum isn't enjoyable when you're around I'm sorry to say.

Well the answer is simple, he's made blunders in squad and matchday selection. I've already said Pivac hasn't been helped a great deal, but he still made the calls. I've been consistent in my views, I don't change them week by week like you in an attempt to try and appear clever.

Ok, one sentence among the other insults is dealing with the topic at hand.

Can you elaborate on what you think are 'blunders'. We haven't got past the starting point yet of you disagreeing with me (for the sake of it?).

If you think he's made 'blunders' in selection, then explain. Your answer may be simple but at the moment it seems a tad too simple. You haven't actually stated why.

AWJ has had amazing longevity in his career but I have wondered if there has been a failure in the system in developing competition for him.

lostinwales wrote:AWJ has had amazing longevity in his career but I have wondered if there has been a failure in the system in developing competition for him.

In terms of positionally or in terms of leadership? And by system, do you mean Team Wales or Welsh rugby as a whole?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have to say even though england are playing one of the things I'm most looking forward to is Rees-Zammit.  Hope he gets the ball a fair bit.

Why would anyone vote this down?

Too many reports to sort out from the office, so locking this until I get home.

I hope everyone has calmed down. While things got a bit heated, my opinion is that none of the reports need actioning. A few of you perhaps were sailing close to the wind, but........

Trolling 1-0 Sanity

Hopefully the weather doesn't cause havoc tomorrow like it did v Scotland.

Wearing the Neath All Black shirt today then. Bound to be a lucky charm.

Let's hope they play like NZ and not like the Ospreys...

I feel like the WRU could do a much better job with our anthem. The football manage it, even without supporters.

The first scrum, Wyn Jones had his prop on toast and had no reward. Very poor by Pearce that. Particularly after the TH popped up.

Fantastic scrum so far.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fantastic scrum so far.

Nope...just that Georgia are anything but the fearsome pack everyone makes them out to be...

Let's just see how fit they are!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fantastic scrum so far.

Nope...just that Georgia are anything but the fearsome pack everyone makes them out to be...

Let's just see how fit they are!

Put a positive spin on it! I said before the england match it's not a pack to be feared but yes they'll tire quickly.

Awful to watch though, must be worse for supposed neutrals.

Wales need to score this first try then just open it up running from everywhere.....the Georgians wont be able to cope...

I know Roberts and Warburton have just highlighted it, but it’s obvious we should be playing with more tempo. Even if we are doing pick and goes etc.

There’s not much tempo, scrum half is moving too slow. That scrum straight to Johnny Williams in our 22 was the most tempo I’ve seen from Wales this year. Seb Davies is just a passenger, fail to see what he adds. The Dragons boys are doing alright.

Wales are making a meal of this. Not doing themselves any favours

Blowing smoke up Tipuric’s bottom, but surely he never released as he was the tackler

On recent form you’d have to predict 60 nil to England!

God it makes me angry watching Wales. Sat here grinding my teeth and huffing and puffing. Terrible half. All of the possession and little to show for it. Agree about the tempo. Seemed to be back to the worst of the Gatland era when we used to take so long to pick, drive, reset and go again. And still not really get anywhere. Just allows the defence to regroup and reset.

The Oracle wrote:God it makes me angry watching Wales.  Sat here grinding my teeth and huffing and puffing. Terrible half.  All of the possession and little to show for it.  Agree about the tempo.  Seemed to be back to the worst of the Gatland era when we used to take so long to pick, drive, reset and go again.  And still not really get anywhere. Just allows the defence to regroup and reset.

It’s so strange as you would assume Pivac would want to play a faster game, yet it’s not happening. I know confidence is low, but there’s still no need to seem so ponderous even with the weather as it is.

Wales have allowed Georgia to keep the game at a pace that they can cope with and have given them hope..so they are fighting.  

That should never have happened.  Should have just followed Englands plan and for 30 mins just make them scrum...they'd have been wrecked.

Or Wales style and just run run run from anywhere....move the big Georgians around the park...they'd be on their knees...

unfortunate Injury to Tipuric there

Looked like a decent tackle

Nothing wrong with the tackle, but the swinging arm did him

A yellow I think

The crowd not happy with that one!

BigGee wrote:Nothing wrong with the tackle, but the swinging arm did him

A yellow I think

Yeah, a yellow is probably right. Possibly one of those orange cards really where it’s not red, but a yellow could seem soft a little

That Georgian no.8 has been pretty decent. Few good rumbles today!