Misguided Gatland?

I read this article in the Western Mail last week:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2011/06/10/warren-gatland-follows-his-wasps-lead-by-taking-wales-stars-to-tough-polish-boot-camp-91466-28853203/

I didn't like what I was reading. Not because I think the Welsh squad should have it easy, but because I'm concerned that Gatland is misguided.

His comments suggest that he will select his World Cup squad on the basis of how hard the players work in training. All well and good, but the risk is that he'll take to New Zealand a player who is committed and hard-working but not actually that good a rugby player over a player who might not get stuck in to the same degree in training but is more likely to win you a game of rugby.

Am I wrong to worry?

Polish them boots.

Sounds like more mindgame nonsence from gatland. I'd imagine he already has his team picked. He probably thinks this sort of outburst will motivate his players but I doubt it will. Either way I seriously doubt he'll be picking in his squad based on this bootcamp.

Rodders, my concern is that he will. There's one player - I won't name names but his initials are HB - who must work phenomenally hard in training, because he certainly isn't getting selected for his performances on the field.

Hywel Burnett?

Lucky - I personally find it worrying. If this is how Gatland makes his decisions it certainly explains why he's stuck with the likes of J Thomas for so long.

Yes it could be he just wants to use it as a motivational tool for some in the squad, but I dunno, I think it's dangerous asking them to go all out in training. It's been such a long season already, if they go at it full tilt in training, they could really run the risk of burn out before the world cup.

That's what you get for putting a Hooker who lived in Fitzpatrick's shadow in charge of your team.



Warren 100 lines by tomorrow:

"training is not the real thing"

Luckless
Good post, I think the welsh coach has most of the players in mind already, so the worry is he keeps picking the same core players over the last 2 season who have performed only good enough to give Wales 4th spot in the 6N.

All players should give their coach 100%, then and only then can they be assessed if they are good enough.

A classic example is Mike Phillips, not happy at the Ospreys now it it could be two reasons

1. He has lost form (perhaps due to age, injury, motivation etc), and hence others have passed him

2. He is not happy, he is not motivated, thus he is not trying as hard, and hence others have passed him

The first one could be a problem as there are now better players in his position, the second one not so much as he can get his "form" back........So what is it?

You can only pick your best team passed on form not perceived Potential Skill Talent etc, Mr G can only assess form now not what a player "might have had/got"

The same could be applied to Byrne Henson Hook (Shane) Williams........... all have skill / potential but might not be on form

You should be worried if there are players who are not giving their all to be in that 30 man squad.

This is slightly reminiscent of the South African boot camp before the 2003 WC - let's hope the nudity is omitted as those with fake tans may stand out.... If the training regime produces players at peak physical fitness come the WC then it's all well and good. As has been alluded to, perhaps Gatland needs to concentrate on getting some senior players performing again, as a fit Welsh team with the elite calibre players on top form would be a real handful for any opposition.

Gatland has always held training performance quite high and in some cases it works others like the players mentioned obvioulsy not.

With the exception of one or two players I think most of us can pick the 30 man squad now and most of us would be happy with the squad picked.

Its how that squad then performs, I will be supporting them 100% come September but likewise if we crash out badly I will be the first to criticise the management/players if the deserve it.

"but Gareth Cooper did well in training, so we selected him ahead of Richie Rees who may be ahead of him at the Blues...." - Oh dear, lets hope that doesnt happen again...

I've said it before, Gatland coaches like an only child plays Chess. He's brilliant as long as he can move the other side's pieces as well as his own(in other words, the other side do exactly as he expects them to).

I doubt whether anyone takes anything Gatland says seriously anymore

I'll be honest: I'd rather see Wales bomb out at the group stage than get to the quarters playing such unimaginative rugby. Reaching the quarters would keep Gatland in a job and we'd get more of the same. Heads need to roll for things to change.

there is a lot to be said for sticking with a player through a dip in form. it gives the player a boost in confidence that could help the player re-find their form. but it is folly to stick with a player who has suffered a terminal loss of form.

when do you decide if a player is worth sticking with and, when they should be dropped and another player selected in their place

gats has failed to get this balancing act right. he has wasted time on certain players when others were crying out for some exposure. as a result we are going into rwc in an undercooked state when we could be really very strong.

time was never really on gatlands side.

The man is utterly misguided and has been from the start. The only thing that's better about Wales under Gatland is that we scrummage a bit better, tackle hard, and keep running around like headless chickens long after the opposition have stopped. The man is devoid of ideas, has no idea how to cure problems - I often wonder if he even sees a problem.

The best we can hope for is that the players completely ignore him, agree secretly on better tactics, win the world cup then he gets an offer off NZ to coach them so we can get rid of him


.... one can dream

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:The best we can hope for is that the players completely ignore him, agree secretly on better tactics...

Isn't that what England did at the last World Cup?

It's unlikely to happen and even if it did, Gatland would just select the players who hadn't mutinied. But you're right, I doubt Gatland even sees a problem with Wales at the moment - the players are following his instructions, after all, and the fault couldn't possibly lie with him!

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:
...
The best we can hope for is that the players completely ignore him, agree secretly on better tactics, win the world cup then he gets an offer off NZ to coach them so we can get rid of him

.... one can dream

We've already got one useless former hooker coaching at the top level thanks.

Speaking of which, can we interest you in one Mark Hammett?

luckless_pedestrian wrote:I'll be honest: I'd rather see Wales bomb out at the group stage than get to the quarters playing such unimaginative rugby. Reaching the quarters would keep Gatland in a job and we'd get more of the same. Heads need to roll for things to change.

Well that of course is your choice.

I am not so sure that things are as black as we are painting them - but that is always the way with the Welsh supporters! How short our memories are!

Gatland has done a pretty decent job - you remember the 40pt+ stuffings regularly handed out to us not so long ago? There have been little sign of those recently, even if we have been disappointing in our own performance sometimes. Even the grandslam side of 2005 was getting regular drubbings from the "big boys". 2004 to Gatland taking over NZ, SA, England, Argentina and (I think) Australia all put over 40 points past us at least once with us scoring few in reply.

He has made us hard to beat - now the side needs to take the next step and put together a full test match worth of the Rugby we all want to see, rather than just 20 minutes in a game.

It is true that we could do with a little more time before the WC - but we are where we are, and I for one am expecting a MUCH improved performance over our last campaign.

Should we blame the coaches for the fact that our players can be twenty points ahead and then fall asleep or twenty points behind before they start playing.
Most of our losses have come from basic mistakes from the players Knock-on's etc surely we cant put all the blame on the coaches that our hookers and jumpers are on another planet.
Most of the games we have lost have been reasonably close and we could have won most of them if we had cut out the silly mistakes.

Funnily enough in World Cups the Welsh are optermistic in we normally bomb, 1991, 1995, 1999. 2007
Yet in World Cups we go into very negativly we have actually done very well 1987, 2003.
Half the Welsh fans expect us to get knocked out by the islander sides, so with no pressure on the players they may well relax and enjoy themselves.

"He has made us hard to beat"

I disagree. We defend more strongly but couldn't attack our way out of a wet tissue. Defence is important but if you can't score why bother turning up? We might lose by less but I daresay our win% is rubbish. The big problems:

1. Weak performance at the breakdown results in turnovers or slow posession
2. Pedantic and dim scrum half with appalling pass technique who wants to fight the world then scuttles off whenever he meets someone bigger than him
3. Fly-halves under instructions to kick and rush
4. A big carthorse in midfield who can't pass being told to slam himself into brickwalls only for the cavalry to turn up late in dribs and drabs thus taking us back to point 1.
5. If we get as far as 5 lateral aimless passing back and forth in the 3/4s sendig us backwards or into touch

So if we don't kick the ball away we meekly hand it back. Rubbish. Total rubbish. Hope the players get smart quick and do well as a result - hope Gatland goes very swiftly.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:"He has made us hard to beat"

I disagree. .............

Disagree all you want - the results however would indicate you are wrong

With all the regional games he attends I'd be inclined to think he puts at least some emphasis on how the players perform outside the national squad.

What worries me in that case is he picks his squad on club form but his starting XV entirely on the training exercises. Might explain why some players rarely seem to be dropped if they have only but to really focus once they're called up to the squad...and then still not perform during games.

Just a thought, I doubt that's actually the case.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:"He has made us hard to beat"

I disagree. We defend more strongly but couldn't attack our way out of a wet tissue. Defence is important but if you can't score why bother turning up? We might lose by less but I daresay our win% is rubbish.

If by score, you mean score tries - then yes, we dont score as many tries,

But the reason we always make it tough for team is because we have 2 excellent goal kickers on the field, and one of the best long distance kickers in world rugby....it appears that Gatland is trying to recreate the SA team of 2007.

"Disagree all you want - the results however would indicate you are wrong"

Which ones? These ones?

Under Gatland Win %
2008: 71.4%
2008/09: 63.6%
2009/10: 33.3%
2010/11: 30%

Source: BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3194004.stm

Yeah, great results and I'm wrong ...

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:"Disagree all you want - the results however would indicate you are wrong"

Which ones? These ones?

Under Gatland Win %
2008: 71.4%
2008/09: 63.6%
2009/10: 33.3%
2010/11: 30%

Source: BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/3194004.stm

Yeah, great results and I'm wrong ...

I said he had made us harder to beat and you disagreed with that - I said nothing about us winning more games under him. You should stick to one argument at a time!

I would have thought that losing more games each year would qualify as being easier to beat

Damn - are you being deliberately obtuse or are you "hard of thinking"?

Read my original post. If you disagree with it, fine, but don't invent points of view for me.

ML wrote:Damn - are you being deliberately obtuse or are you "hard of thinking"?

Read my original post. If you disagree with it, fine, but don't invent points of view for me.

No, but clearly you are. You think we're harder to beat. Clearly because you perceive that we lose by smaller margins. I think that having a Win% of 30% is pathetic and shows that we're actually quite easy to beat. You see ML, you have to score more than the opposition to win regardless of how well you defend. Whilst I might agree if you said "We conceed fewer points on average" I can't agree with the statemet that he has made us harder to beat when we score much less than we used to and win far fewer games hence making us EASIER TO BEAT because the opposition know our attack is easy to nullify and manage to score more than us in a game.

Am I going too fast for you? Simple rule: scoring more than the opposition makes you hard to beat.

Still totally disregarding my argument I see - OK you go off and talk to yourself - because there is no point in discussing anything with you if you continue to misrepresent my position! LOL

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:You think we're harder to beat. Clearly because you perceive that we lose by smaller margins. I think that having a Win% of 30% is pathetic and shows that we're actually quite easy to beat.

To be fair Scotland and Italy have failed to beat us since Gatland arrived, in contrast to before. And out of the other 6N sides only France have managed to beat us more times than we've beaten them since 2007, as far as stats go that's a marked improvement during Gatland's reign and would suggest that we are at least slightly harder to beat.

Though admittedly we've sunk a little bit lower every year. There hasn't appeared to be any solid self-belief in this side since 2009/10. Even sparse wins have often been far from convincing. The players look more every season as if they were playing under Gareth Jenkins

ML wrote:Still totally disregarding my argument I see - OK you go off and talk to yourself - because there is no point in discussing anything with you if you continue to misrepresent my position! LOL

Which position? Your position that Gatland has made us harder to beat? Yes I totally mis-represented that. (Do I really have to go back and quote you?)



But yes it is pointless talking to you. Particularly if you throw the rattle out of the pram when someone disagrees with you.

Guys - its been a long day for some of us, feel free to carry on bickering but please dont cross the line and start throwing personal insults.

Cheers.

ML wrote:Still totally disregarding my argument I see - OK you go off and talk to yourself - because there is no point in discussing anything with you if you continue to misrepresent my position! LOL

Chill a little guys. At the moment you're disagreeing on the definition of "hard to beat". Which is fine, keep arguing your cases either way, just no "hitting"

Knowsit17 wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:You think we're harder to beat. Clearly because you perceive that we lose by smaller margins. I think that having a Win% of 30% is pathetic and shows that we're actually quite easy to beat.

To be fair Scotland and Italy have failed to beat us since Gatland arrived, in contrast to before. And out of the other 6N sides only France have managed to beat us more times than we've beaten them since 2007, as far as stats go that's a marked improvement during Gatland's reign and would suggest that we are at least slightly harder to beat.

Though admittedly we've sunk a little bit lower every year. There hasn't appeared to be any solid self-belief in this side since 2009/10. Even sparse wins have often been far from convincing. The players look more every season as if they were playing under Gareth Jenkins

Fair point Knowsit at least we are talking from the point of view of fact here rather than perception. Having said that are our improved results vs Scotland & Italy truly an indication of an improvement or, are you as I suspect you may be, very unhappy with our record since autumn 2009?

You see for me, I started to get unhappy with Gatland around about the time he started employing the aimless kick strategy and stubbornly refused to change tack despite the obvious handicap it gave the team (around summer 2009) and got really hacked off with him during the 2010 6N when he selected some of the most out of form and inappropriate players possible. Since then he's done nothing to convince me that he can recognise a player in form, or has any plan on taking the team forward and rediscovering our knack for scoring tries. Furthermore he's still selecting the likes of Bennett and we are still losing in the most abject and pathetic fashion I have seen since the 90's. Last season we won 30% of our games, down from 63% 2 seasons previously. The man should be known as Disaster Gatland. That's the biggest slump in form since Kennedy went down in the back of a car in Dallas.

Knowsit17 wrote:To be fair Scotland and Italy have failed to beat us since Gatland arrived, in contrast to before. And out of the other 6N sides only France have managed to beat us more times than we've beaten them since 2007, as far as stats go that's a marked improvement during Gatland's reign and would suggest that we are at least slightly harder to beat.

Though admittedly we've sunk a little bit lower every year. There hasn't appeared to be any solid self-belief in this side since 2009/10. Even sparse wins have often been far from convincing. The players look more every season as if they were playing under Gareth Jenkins

Weve won 8 of the last 9 against Scotland.
Wales havent sunk lower in recent years, were actually playing the 3 Nations teams once a year, sometimes 3 times a year, much has been made of the fact Wales hadnt won many games prior to this years 6 Nations but those defeats included 2 games against South Africa, 3 against New Zealand and 1 against Australia, theres no shame in losing to them to be honest. WE could so easily bring in teams like Canada and Georgia and run up 40 points and delude ourselves and think were good, or you can do what Gatland has done and try and improve the team by playing superiour teams.
We did actually win 3 games out of 5 in this years 6 Nations, thats not a bad season to be honest.

AlynDavies wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:To be fair Scotland and Italy have failed to beat us since Gatland arrived, in contrast to before. And out of the other 6N sides only France have managed to beat us more times than we've beaten them since 2007, as far as stats go that's a marked improvement during Gatland's reign and would suggest that we are at least slightly harder to beat.

Though admittedly we've sunk a little bit lower every year. There hasn't appeared to be any solid self-belief in this side since 2009/10. Even sparse wins have often been far from convincing. The players look more every season as if they were playing under Gareth Jenkins

Weve won 8 of the last 9 against Scotland.
Wales havent sunk lower in recent years, were actually playing the 3 Nations teams once a year, sometimes 3 times a year, much has been made of the fact Wales hadnt won many games prior to this years 6 Nations but those defeats included 2 games against South Africa, 3 against New Zealand and 1 against Australia, theres no shame in losing to them to be honest. WE could so easily bring in teams like Canada and Georgia and run up 40 points and delude ourselves and think were good, or you can do what Gatland has done and try and improve the team by playing superiour teams.
We did actually win 3 games out of 5 in this years 6 Nations, thats not a bad season to be honest.

Now we're talking - proper debate! Thank you Alyn for a cracking contribution and a different perspective which gives me some food for thought.

For me 3 out of 5 6N's is an ok return. However we drew with Fiji and lost to the Baa Baas, Got spanked by France, surrendered to England and threw away winnable games against South Africa and Australia. Ironically I agree with ML that the margins are narrower and we do have the defence to thank for that, but our attack is abysmal and we have major problems at the breakdown (lineout improved this season thank goodness - took 2 years to fix that!). Ultimately we won 3 out of 10 games and that's not good enough for me. Feel free to disagree but I think we've gone downhill badly.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

AlynDavies wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:To be fair Scotland and Italy have failed to beat us since Gatland arrived, in contrast to before. And out of the other 6N sides only France have managed to beat us more times than we've beaten them since 2007, as far as stats go that's a marked improvement during Gatland's reign and would suggest that we are at least slightly harder to beat.

Though admittedly we've sunk a little bit lower every year. There hasn't appeared to be any solid self-belief in this side since 2009/10. Even sparse wins have often been far from convincing. The players look more every season as if they were playing under Gareth Jenkins

Weve won 8 of the last 9 against Scotland.
Wales havent sunk lower in recent years, were actually playing the 3 Nations teams once a year, sometimes 3 times a year, much has been made of the fact Wales hadnt won many games prior to this years 6 Nations but those defeats included 2 games against South Africa, 3 against New Zealand and 1 against Australia, theres no shame in losing to them to be honest. WE could so easily bring in teams like Canada and Georgia and run up 40 points and delude ourselves and think were good, or you can do what Gatland has done and try and improve the team by playing superiour teams.
We did actually win 3 games out of 5 in this years 6 Nations, thats not a bad season to be honest.

Now we're talking - proper debate! Thank you Alyn for a cracking contribution and a different perspective which gives me some food for thought.

For me 3 out of 5 6N's is an ok return. However we drew with Fiji and lost to the Baa Baas, Got spanked by France, surrendered to England and threw away winnable games against South Africa and Australia. Ironically I agree with ML that the margins are narrower and we do have the defence to thank for that, but our attack is abysmal and we have major problems at the breakdown (lineout improved this season thank goodness - took 2 years to fix that!). Ultimately we won 3 out of 10 games and that's not good enough for me. Feel free to disagree but I think we've gone downhill badly.

Agree nearly 100%. Ultimately you could nitpick on the wins, say Scotland played horribly against us (which they did), that Italy were on top for much of the second half and made us look ordinary during which time. The Ireland game speaks for itself.

Playing the SH giants on a more regular basis is certainly ambitious and a step in the right direction imo. But surely to define us as progressing we'd have to be winning some too. In the 13 games we've played against the big 3 we've won just once and that solitary honour came in the first year of Gatland's appointment. With that in consideration, how could it be said that we haven't sunk lower Alyn? Not having been able to raise the bar of 2008!

The most painful of it is that again ultimately, we should have beaten SA twice last year (both times ahead at half time), a scrum advantage so superior was neglected against Australia, we could have even drawn against the AB's in 09. No shame in losing to them on paper but undoubtedly shame in not making such opportunities count and constantly failing to learn lessons. Sometimes I think this side has a phobia of finding itself in a winning position. The Baabaa's game is the most recent example of this unbelievable choking.

I wouldn't blame Gatland for the ills of welsh rugby. International form has reflected regional form. Some good stuff now and again but mostly unspectacular and falling short of expectation.

Over the last ten years Wales has slowly improved. We have beaten good teams, we have two grandslams for the first time in nearly thirty years. It's not been a bad decade.

The next step, beating the southern hemisphere teams is as great a challenge as it has always been. It's not impossible but our players need to believe they can do it. They have to be at there best and they have to work very hard to get there.

If England of 2007 could reach the finals, anyone could.

But it is far more down to the men on the pitch than the coaches who prepare them. All he can do is kick them up the bum when they get it wrong. I think Gatland is surrounded by some men good at butt kicking.

Totally:

Your views and comments mirror my thoughts and conclusions, our coaching is one dimensional with no plan B when plan A does not work (which is 90% of the time because every man and his dog knows what we are going to do). Yes we have a good defence but it needs to be because we kick it back to the opposition from 9, 10 and 15 hence our defence has a lot of practice. The worrying aspect is the introduction of players that don't tackle into the squad, look at the last 10 mins of the Baa Baas game.

I believe we have a good squad with cover in most positions, it is not extra fitness training needed for the WC it is tactics, set piece, practiced set moves, offloading with support play and in the case of the centres, passing skills.

As the original post I think these trips to Poland is not what is needed, it seems to me Gatland going over old ground, like his tactics no new ideas.

maestegmafia wrote:It is far more down to the men on the pitch than the coaches who prepare them. All he can do is kick them up the bum when they get it wrong. I think Gatland is surrounded by some men good at butt kicking.

I'm sorry, but SO MUCH of the responsibility lies with Gatland and co. He sends the team out with the gameplan we've seen for the last couple of seasons.

There are certain areas where we've improved - our scrum is a weapon and our back row, depending on personnel, can be a real asset. But we're not making best use the ball when we have it. If the players were sent out with encouragement, told to play what they see, told to back themselves, we might see a bit of life in our attack; but I fear that instead of having that licence to try things, they're afraid of trying things in case they go wrong and they'll get the 'kick up the bum' you're talking about. No wonder all we do is go side to side, making inches forward at a time: no one wants to risk anything.

A coaching team can do one of two things: it can inhibit the players or it can liberate them. The current national coaching team is doing the former.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:It is far more down to the men on the pitch than the coaches who prepare them. All he can do is kick them up the bum when they get it wrong. I think Gatland is surrounded by some men good at butt kicking.

I'm sorry, but SO MUCH of the responsibility lies with Gatland and co. He sends the team out with the gameplan we seen for the last couple of seasons.

There are certain areas where we've improved - our scrum is a weapon and our back row, depending on personnel, can be a real asset. But we're not making best use the ball when we have it. If the players were sent out with encouragement, told to play what they see, told to back themselves, we might see a bit of life in our attack; but I fear that instead of having that licence to try things, they're afraid of trying things in case they go wrong and they'll get the 'kick up the bum' you're talking about. No wonder all we do is go side to side, making inches forward at a time: no one wants to risk anything.

A coaching team can do one of two things: it can inhibit the players or it can liberate them. The current national coaching team is doing the former.

There is no proof that Gatland's regime is inhibiting the team. In fact his press statements point to the contrary. The players play no differently for him than they do for their clubs so i find it hard to allocate blame at his door.

Wales have been gifted a hand of conservative players, bar the brilliance of Shane Williams or James Hook there are few game changers and far too much weight is left on their shoulders. There is little else to choose from. Steven Jones is a bastion of consistency, but conservative, Mike Phillips is abrasive but ponderous. Gatland doesnt tell Steven Jones, Mike Phillips, James Hook or Lee Byrne when to kick the ball aimlessly to the opposition, they make that decision themselves, and they do it when there is little else on.

The players that made Wales exciting when they won well have not been in the team or have been out of form due to retirement, injury or self imposed exile. Dwayne Peel, Gavin Henson and Gareth Thomas made a big difference to the welsh backline in 2005. On form Henson, Peel and Byrne made a difference in 2008.

If wales can fill the voids left then they will play good exciting rugby, but we need more creativity behind and more intelligence. You cant coach that. You cant select it if it isn't available either.

In the last three years since Wales played some very good rugby we have had a consistent front five, built around very talented players like Adam Jones, Gethin Jenkins and Alun Wynn Jones. They are the reason our forward play has improved. Our backrow has suffered injury and lack of form but when we have had the best players available it has been good. We currently have quite a few positive selection headaches in the forwards. Though we have some very tough selection issues in the backs.

If Wales can find a balance of talent, exuberance, game reading and creativity similar to what we had a few years ago all will go well.

But it makes no difference who is coaching a team if they are playing at the sum of their parts.

Thats the place Ireland went to before the '07 world cup with Eddie.

That didn't turn out too well, Ireland played like drains. Mind you, the Munster lads were flying at the end of the season and went onto to win their 2nd Heineken Cup

Ireland have stopped going to Spala now (there is one of the ice thingys though in Ireland now for those who need it). According to the Irish players, Spala is no holiday camp, thats for sure.

If blame must go around, I don't think it's that rational to say it lies entirely with one or the other. Imo it ought to be shared as both parties usually play some part in failures.

Gatland can't be considered an individual who can do no wrong as some of his selections and supposed tactics reflect.

But it's evident that in taking the job, he was taking on a side with severe mental fragility issues. This was demonstrated under Gareth Jenkins and to an extent under Ruddock. Their heads are liable to "going down" so easily as some analysts have described. It's probably fair to say that self-belief will be the central pillar of this sides exploits during the WC.

He's just trying to make sure they hit next season running hard. Traditionally the international players start the season slowly. Most of them are only semi fit at the start of the november series and only just getting back into rugby after the off season. He wants them training hard and focussed thats all.

Hey guys great debate - lots of valid points. I'm in the camp that says Gatland has to take at least some rap for the performances. I've not seen a performance from Wales lacking in effort for a long time, so I'll commend him there. The players are at least motivated. What worries me most is bad tactics and skills executed badly under pressure. Now that's something Gatland CAN work on. Precious little evidence of it however.

I've no doubt Wales will go into the RWC like a bull at the gates but I seriously worry wether they will score tries or even get into games with the way they're playing.

Gatland isn't the only problem in Welsh rugby, but IMHO he certainly is a problem and when he goes I think I'll breathe a sigh of relief and raise a to my lips

maestegmafia wrote:There is no proof that Gatland's regime is inhibiting the team. In fact his press statements point to the contrary.

But he and Rob Howley have publicly castigated individual players for mistakes they've made in games. You have to assume that he's even more critical behind closed doors. If you have that in the back of your mind as a player, what are you going to do? Take a risk or play safe?

I appreciate that there's a difference between regional rugby (and Under-20 international rugby before that) and Test level, but Darren Edwards of the Dragons has said that he encourages players to try things and if it doesn't come off, not to worry but to try to make sure it comes off next time. The impression I get is that the Welsh coaching team are less forgiving.

Oh, and I'm aware that 'the impression I get' isn't the definitive truth of things. But none of us here know the whole story and these boards are here for opinions!

Some great points in this thread I will add though:

1) Gatland always wants to put Wales against the strongest nations. Consider our season for 2010. We played the 6 Nations in Febuary / March, then South Africa home in June, followed by a 2 week tour of Newzealand. Then welcomed all 3 major southern hemisphere nations here in Novemeber and a test against Fiji also. We could so easily go back to what we did in the 90's. Play the 5 /6 Nations, go one a tour of Zimbabwe / Namibia or the USA / Canada, then in November play 3 games against teams like Japan, Canada and Tonga, then have a one off test again a 3 Nation team. The truth is Gatland is making things hard for himself and trying to improve Wales. Is it really better for us to play weak nations all the time and pretend were world beaters after beating them with big scores? Yes it's great to see Wales winning but i'd much rather see us playing a 3 Nation side and losing while fighting hard than running many tries in against a team of amateurs.

2009-2010 Season.

07/11/2009 Wales 12 - 19 New Zealand Millennium Stadium
13/11/2009 Wales 17 - 13 Samoa Millennium Stadium
21/11/2009 Wales 33 - 16 Argentina Millennium Stadium
28/11/2009 Wales 12 - 33 Australia Millennium Stadium
06/02/2010 England 30 - 17 Wales Twickenham
13/02/2010 Wales 31 - 24 Scotland Millennium Stadium
26/02/2010 Wales 20 - 26 France Millennium Stadium
13/03/2010 Ireland 27 - 12 Wales Croke Park
20/03/2010 Wales 33 - 10 Italy Millennium Stadium
05/06/2010 Wales 31 - 34 South Africa Millennium Stadium
19/06/2010 New Zealand 42 - 9 Wales Carisbrook
26/06/2010 New Zealand 29 - 10 Wales Waikato Stadium

Now contrast this season, with a season long remembered in Welsh rugby fans minds, the 1993 / 1994 season.

16/10/1993 Wales 55 - 5 Japan National Stadium
10/11/1993 Wales 24 - 26 Canada National Stadium
15/01/1994 Wales 29 - 6 Scotland National Stadium
05/02/1994 Ireland 15 - 17 Wales Lansdowne Road
19/02/1994 Wales 24 - 15 France National Stadium
19/03/1994 England 15 - 8 Wales Twickenham
18/05/1994 Portugal 11 - 102 Wales Universitario Lisboa
21/05/1994 Spain 0-54 Wales Campo Universitaria
11/06/1994 Canada 15 - 33 Wales Fletcher's Field
18/06/1994 Fiji 8 - 23 Wales National Stadium
22/06/1994 Tonga 9 - 18 Wales Teufaiva
25/06/1994 Samoa 34 - 9 Wales Apia

Clearly Wales are trying to make things tougher and not taking easier games.


2) Gatlands selection policies are quizzical sometimes and only he can see the reason for the selection of certain individuals, Huw Bennett being a key one. But in truth as we don't have an A team it's very difficult for him to develop young players, he basically has to throw them stright into the mix and hope for the best. I heard the cost is £250k a season to run a A team so you wonder why the WRU dont bother when it's about the same value as the annual wages of a decent international player. The only realistic time he can experiment with changes and new players is in games against teams like Samoa, Fiji and the Barbarians and sometimes these players don't step up when needed meaning we too struggle in these games. The fact is I think a FULL Welsh team is better positioned than ever to beat teams like Fiji and Samoa in out world cup pool simply because were used to play much stronger and more physical teams.

3) People say it's wrong for Gatland to publicly come out and criticise players, but frankly many in this Welsh team arent kids anymore most have won 2 grand slams and are now in their late 20's or early 30's Wales needs these players to stand up and lead by example but often for far to many of them they don't do that. Ryan Jones made those silly errors against Fiji and gave away penalties which put Wales under pressure, he was our captain and needed to lead by example and keep a cool head, he didn't do that, so why should he be praised for putting his team under pressure? Gatland can't be responsible for what players do during a match. He can give Wales a game plan and prepare them the best he can, but the players are the ones who make the decisions during a game. Gatlands only problem is showing to much loyalty to many players who don't perform when given a chance. Biggar is one given several chances, but has clearly shown he isnt ready for this level yet. People like Deiniol Jones and Ian Gough showed their not good enough anymore for this level in the Fiji draw. While Huw Bennett showed glimpses of potential in 2003, yet in 2011 he's still part of the Wales squad while being THIRD (behind Richard Hibbard and Mefin Davies) choice hooker at the Ospreys and performs poorly in each game he plays for Wales.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:The best we can hope for is that the players completely ignore him, agree secretly on better tactics...

Isn't that what England did at the last World Cup?

It's unlikely to happen and even if it did, Gatland would just select the players who hadn't mutinied. But you're right, I doubt Gatland even sees a problem with Wales at the moment - the players are following his instructions, after all, and the fault couldn't possibly lie with him!

Isn't that what the Welsh players did to your last world cup coach............. a certain Gareth Jenkins

Gatland has had 4 yrs to prepare, he has stuck with so called "potentially world class players" and a surrounding tight nit core, who at best are average players who have no motivation to do better as they know there is almost no chance of been dropped

FB - Lee Byrne Off Form since Lions tour - Barry Davies, 1/2p , Prydie could have been tried in this position
Wings - 1/2p injured, Shane aging, and now injured - didnt bring anyone in (Stoddart, North, Brew) until injury forced his arm
Centre - Hook and Roberts never worked - Better options with Roberts are Jon Davies, Scott Williams, Ashley Smith
Centre - Henson well beggar belief
Half back - Tovey should have been given game time at least for 40 mins at some point
Half back - Phillips Off form since Lions, probably 3-4 scumhalves are ahead of him
8 - Delve, Faletau should have played alot more

and on and on