Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[beninho]

First topic message reminder :

8 bronze badges
The problem states, "If I buy two tickets with different numbers" – msinghal Jul 22 '15 at 6:40
Correct. I just wanted to clarify this explicitly, since this apparently causes the confusion in the internet the OP was writing about... – Bernhard Jul 22 '15 at 7:38
So let me get this right. If I have a 1 in 14 million of chance of winning the lottery, if I buy a further ticket with a different sequence of numbers to the first one for the same draw my chance of winning is slashed to 1 in 7 million? – Rickie Jul 22 '15 at 8:16
Yes, that is correct. – Bernhard Jul 22 '15 at 8:23

[westisbest]

I was on Twitter. It’s ok. Can be decent. Don’t go on it anymore.
Each to their own.

[JAS]

Just before next election tory will pledge to reduce corporation tax. Tge party of business and all that. Peopke will think great.

Tories have pretty much got the next election in the bag anyway.
Look at the body count and where this country sits on the Covid carnage league Table - Then look at the opinion polls
Look for a historical precedent of an 80 seat majority being overturned...there isn't one.

The only realistic conclusions we can draw are that either
The British public are extremely gullible & short sighted or
The British public have a weird self harm fetish or
The British public consider a weird form of Nationalism & subservience to an out of touch elite to be more important than their own prosperity or
a combination of all of the above
When I say British public I mean the bottom 90-99% of the wealth & income scale (There are obviously some winners in a vision of Tory Britain and it's the top 1%. The next lot i.e. 2-10% will be ok and have the prospect of a life free of financial worry...The rest....hmmm

Having said that, the only way to change that is to have electorate savvy, media savvy left of centre politicians full of charisma that can put coherent arguments for change across.
Even though I'm Left of centre, I look at the cabinet and the shadow cabinet and think sheeeeeeeet!! They're going to increase their majority next time round, not have it slashed.
Prime example, Look at Sunak then look at Dodds - Now she might well be competent but she has zero charisma so in front of the electorate in the heat of an election battle...she'll flop.

[Soul Requiem]

Or the electorate no longer buy into Labour lunacy, i'd wager that's closer to the truth.

[JAS]

Or the electorate no longer buy into Labour lunacy, i'd wager that's closer to the truth.

Just out of interest... would you call Attlee's 1945 program Lunacy now? Had you been around in 1945 would you have called it lunacy then?

What do you see in Starmer that makes you think...yep, he's going to implement a lunatic program if he's ever given the reigns of power. Although I disagreed I could see many being swayed by that being levelled at Corbyn.

That being said there is of course a difference between actual lunacy and the public perception of lunacy...going back to my previous post...the latter could apply via the aforementioned gullible trait...

[Soul Requiem]

Or the electorate no longer buy into Labour lunacy, i'd wager that's closer to the truth.

Just out of interest... would you call Attlee's 1945 program Lunacy now? Had you been around in 1945 would you have called it lunacy then?

What do you see in Starmer that makes you think...yep, he's going to implement a lunatic program if he's ever given the reigns of power. Although I disagreed I could see many being swayed by that being levelled at Corbyn.

That being said there is of course a difference between actual lunacy and the public perception of lunacy...going back to my previous post...the latter could apply via the aforementioned gullible trait...

Starmer is guilty by association with Corbyn, being a member of his shadow cabinet will follow him throughout his leadership tenure. The manifesto of 2019 won't just get forgotten because there's a new leader JAS, he campaigned as an MP based on it. Are you going to suggest that you don't consider all Tory MPs who ran in 2010 guilty of the perceived ills of austerity?

I'm not really interested in a manifesto from 76 years ago.

[JAS]

Or the electorate no longer buy into Labour lunacy, i'd wager that's closer to the truth.

Just out of interest... would you call Attlee's 1945 program Lunacy now? Had you been around in 1945 would you have called it lunacy then?

What do you see in Starmer that makes you think...yep, he's going to implement a lunatic program if he's ever given the reigns of power. Although I disagreed I could see many being swayed by that being levelled at Corbyn.

That being said there is of course a difference between actual lunacy and the public perception of lunacy...going back to my previous post...the latter could apply via the aforementioned gullible trait...

Starmer is guilty by association with Corbyn, being a member of his shadow cabinet will follow him throughout his leadership tenure. The manifesto of 2019 won't just get forgotten because there's a new leader JAS, he campaigned as an MP based on it. Are you going to suggest that you don't consider all Tory MPs who ran in 2010 guilty of the perceived ills of austerity?

I'm not really interested in a manifesto from 76 years ago.

Bit of an odd take. Does that then mean that Johnson is guilty by association of indecision with "strong and stable" May or Pro European because he served in the Cameron/Osbourne era?? To try and tar Starmer and Corbyn with the same brush is quite frankly hilarious. Starmer's biggest problem in the eyes of your average Labour voter is that he's more like Johnson than Corbyn. Id prefer him to be much more oppositional but the fact that he's not doesn't make him a lunatic as you're trying to imply nor does serving in Corbyn's shadow cabinet.

[McLaren]

What do you think was so wrong in the 2019 labour manifesto?

[JAS]

What do you think was so wrong in the 2019 labour manifesto?

Lack of pandemic planning
No mission to Mars
No more free handouts to global corporate tax evaders
Free internet for all
Public spending was about a 1/10 of what we’ve spent since
Basically it was a right Poopie show!! Sheer unadulterated lunacy eh!!

[Duty281]

Tories have pretty much got the next election in the bag anyway.
Look at the body count and where this country sits on the Covid carnage league Table - Then look at the opinion polls
Look for a historical precedent of an 80 seat majority being overturned...there isn't one.

The only realistic conclusions we can draw are that either
The British public are extremely gullible & short sighted or
The British public have a weird self harm fetish or
The British public consider a weird form of Nationalism & subservience to an out of touch elite to be more important than their own prosperity or
a combination of all of the above

Or the British public only have two real choices at any election, primarily because of FPTP, party funding and the broadcasting rules, and both of those choices are rubbish options.

[JAS]

Tories have pretty much got the next election in the bag anyway.
Look at the body count and where this country sits on the Covid carnage league Table - Then look at the opinion polls
Look for a historical precedent of an 80 seat majority being overturned...there isn't one.

The only realistic conclusions we can draw are that either
The British public are extremely gullible & short sighted or
The British public have a weird self harm fetish or
The British public consider a weird form of Nationalism & subservience to an out of touch elite to be more important than their own prosperity or
a combination of all of the above

Or the British public only have two real choices at any election, primarily because of FPTP, party funding and the broadcasting rules, and both of those choices are rubbish options.

A bit more of a plausible explanation than Souls to be fair Duty.

In a sense though, you're also touching on something else there....because those 2 options are indeed rubbish that then causes cracks to start appearing elsewhere. Some of the British public (i.e. Scotland, Wales & N.I.) rightly or wrongly do have a 3rd choice whilst the majority (i.e. England) do not. That in itself causes different tensions.

[Soul Requiem]

Plausible because it doesn't suit your anti Tory agenda, you are unable to appreciate that many people as backed up by the previous 4 general elections are not buying into the tired cliches you throw about.

The 2019 manifesto was a complete sh/t show from start to finish, a litany of promises that were never likely to be enacted, you may be naive enough to believe offering the world is a realistic proposition but it is not. I go about my daily life safe in the knowledge that i'm unlikely to ever see a truly left wing government and what a wonderful thing that is. You can carry on being bitter than your minority views are just that and making feeble excuses for why that is.

[JAS]

Plausible because it doesn't suit your anti Tory agenda, you are unable to appreciate that many people as backed up by the previous 4 general elections are not buying into the tired cliches you throw about.

The 2019 manifesto was a complete sh/t show from start to finish, a litany of promises that were never likely to be enacted, you may be naive enough to believe offering the world is a realistic proposition but it is not. I go about my daily life safe in the knowledge that i'm  unlikely to ever see a truly left wing government and what a wonderful thing that is. You can carry on being bitter than your minority views are just that and making feeble excuses for why that is.

Or plausible because it's plausible.

[Soul Requiem]

It's the same tired excuses from left wing voters that those voting Tory have somehow been duped rather than voting for whom they believe will serve them better.

[beninho]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

[beninho]

And tory voters weren't all duped. The ones who voted tory for brexit may have been, but they may also have been racist, or stupid.

Other tory voters just voted because they do.

Other tory voters are just downright arseh0les

[Soul Requiem]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

[JAS]

It's the same tired excuses from left wing voters that those voting Tory have somehow been duped rather than voting for whom they believe will serve them better.

Its not an excuse it's a valid observation, an observation which because of your beliefs you're trying to discredit.

For those at or near the top of the income and wealth distribution spectrum it makes perfect sense to vote Tory, of course it does (that being said there will be some in that bracket who perhaps might put a social conscience or a belief in a more cohesive society before their own self interest - but those people are rare).
As you come down the wealth distribution spectrum it becomes harder to justify voting Tory. The reason many do is that they believe that they can aspire to higher and it's only a matter of time before their hard work will get them to the upper echelons of income and wealth (again - nothing wrong with that). Is there some truth that at certain levels a Tory government will reward hard work more than a Labour one - sadly I think that is the case and I do concede that point.

As you come down further, past the median line and into the below average earners, the strugglers, the just about managing, the Brexit voting because "dirty foreigners are coming here taking our jobs" contingent. Are you seriously telling me those people carefully consider all the options, read manifestos, do research based on what's being proposed by each of the parties and make an objective judgement? No, they look at the Sun & Daily Fail front page on election day and go "Duh, yeah, those nasty Lefty, Commie Traitors will bankrupt the country, Im voting Tory"

[beninho]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

[beninho]

I like laughing at the racist brexiteers who don't like asylum seekers, but also voted out of the agreement about returning them to a prior eu state.

[Soul Requiem]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

Presumably selfish? And you wonder why nobody bothers engaging with you.

[Soul Requiem]

It's the same tired excuses from left wing voters that those voting Tory have somehow been duped rather than voting for whom they believe will serve them better.

Its not an excuse it's a valid observation, an observation which because of your beliefs you're trying to discredit.

For those at or near the top of the income and wealth distribution spectrum it makes perfect sense to vote Tory, of course it does (that being said there will be some in that bracket who perhaps might put a social conscience or a belief in a more cohesive society before their own self interest - but those people are rare).
As you come down the wealth distribution spectrum it becomes harder to justify voting Tory. The reason many do is that they believe that they can aspire to higher and it's only a matter of time before their hard work will get them to the upper echelons of income and wealth (again - nothing wrong with that). Is there some truth that at certain levels a Tory government will reward hard work more than a Labour one - sadly I think that is the case and I do concede that point.

As you come down further, past the median line and into the below average earners, the strugglers, the just about managing, the Brexit voting because "dirty foreigners are coming here taking our jobs" contingent. Are you seriously telling me those people carefully consider all the options, read manifestos, do research based on what's being proposed by each of the parties and make an objective judgement? No, they look at the Sun & Daily Fail front page on election day and go "Duh, yeah, those nasty Lefty, Commie Traitors will bankrupt the country, Im voting Tory"

I don't need to discredit it, you do that very well in all of your posts JAS, deciding in your ivory tower (literally rather than proverbially) what is better for those below you. It's the same self righteous nonsense that has plagued this country for decades, people vote Tory because they do reward hard work more than Labour do. You'll harp on about the lowest earners as if they've historically benefitted from Labour governments when regardless of who is in power they struggle so you end up with the choice between accepting your position (Labour) or aspiring for better (Tory).

You have two different types of low earner as set out above, my family background is more the latter and I won't make out as if we're poor because despite growing up on a council estate we certainly are not. This though is the real kicker, from a young age I was pushed to achieve in life and was given every opportunity to achieve, my father was the sole earner in my household who on top of being a fireman worked on building sites on his days off, as a taxi driver in the evenings, all in order to provide for me.

Then lets look at you and I, we have both benefitted from neoliberalism but you like to extol its ill whereas I prefer to extol it's gains.

[beninho]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

Presumably selfish? And you wonder why nobody bothers engaging with you.

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

[Soul Requiem]

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

Then you've already closed your mind so there is little point explaining my reasons when i'm aware of the response.

[beninho]

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

Then you've already closed your mind so there is little point explaining my reasons when i'm aware of the response.

I'll stick with presumably selfish then.

[Duty281]

Are you seriously telling me those people carefully consider all the options, read manifestos, do research based on what's being proposed by each of the parties and make an objective judgement? No, they look at the Sun & Daily Fail front page on election day and go "Duh, yeah, those nasty Lefty, Commie Traitors will bankrupt the country, Im voting Tory"

Is this just a very nasty prejudice you're exhibiting, or is there some evidence for it?

[Duty281]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

Presumably selfish? And you wonder why nobody bothers engaging with you.

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

You can't have read widely into the Brexit issue, then. If someone's primary reason for voting for Brexit was because they wanted the UK to regain control of negotiating and signing its own trade deals, for instance, how is that selfish?

[beninho]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

Presumably selfish? And you wonder why nobody bothers engaging with you.

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

You can't have read widely into the Brexit issue, then. If someone's primary reason for voting for Brexit was because they wanted the UK to regain control of negotiating and signing its own trade deals, for instance, how is that selfish?

Because you are wanting to strip rights from millions of people, while putting businesses in a perilous condition just because of sonething 1 person finds important. How is that not a selfish choice? Not saying its not important to that person. But it's a selfish choice.

[Soul Requiem]

Because you are wanting to strip rights from millions of people, while putting businesses in a perilous condition just because of sonething 1 person finds important. How is that not a selfish choice?  Not saying its not important to that person. But it's a selfish choice.

[beninho]

Because you are wanting to strip rights from millions of people, while putting businesses in a perilous condition just because of sonething 1 person finds important. How is that not a selfish choice?  Not saying its not important to that person. But it's a selfish choice.

Cone on then laughing boy, how isn't it?

[Soul Requiem]

By the same logic your reasons for voting remain are selfish, putting your opinion above that of others. Can you not see that?

[beninho]

By the same logic your reasons for voting remain are selfish, putting your opinion above that of others. Can you not see that?

And?

I'm not defending that, you seem to be though.

[Soul Requiem]

The old confuse the argument tactic.

[JAS]

Are you seriously telling me those people carefully consider all the options, read manifestos, do research based on what's being proposed by each of the parties and make an objective judgement? No, they look at the Sun & Daily Fail front page on election day and go "Duh, yeah, those nasty Lefty, Commie Traitors will bankrupt the country, Im voting Tory"

Is this just a very nasty prejudice you're exhibiting, or is there some evidence for it?

No...again it's an observation. Evidence?...see vote count.

For the record, and I know that this is going to sound duplicitous but based on the research I had done up to the point of the Brexit vote I actually voted leave.

The main reason I voted leave was because I took the view that the EU had become far too dysfunctional and disconnected from the majority of working people throughout the continent, I saw it rightly or wrongly as a corrupt organisation in the back pockets of big business that wasn't prepared to listen to the concerns of representatives of individual member states (Cameron). To be fair I still think that is the case but I now accept that a collective (for all its faults) SHOULD be better than the individual sum of parts - if it's perceived that it isn't then there's an obligation to try and change it from the inside, not leave and carp from the sidelines.

[Duty281]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

Presumably selfish? And you wonder why nobody bothers engaging with you.

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

You can't have read widely into the Brexit issue, then. If someone's primary reason for voting for Brexit was because they wanted the UK to regain control of negotiating and signing its own trade deals, for instance, how is that selfish?

Because you are wanting to strip rights from millions of people, while putting businesses in a perilous condition just because of sonething 1 person finds important. How is that not a selfish choice?  Not saying its not important to that person. But it's a selfish choice.

Because being selfish is about something that primarily benefits that one individual, not the whole group. The UK restoring its ability to sign new trade arrangements does not benefit one individual, it benefits the whole country, so it's not a selfish endeavour.

[beninho]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

Presumably selfish? And you wonder why nobody bothers engaging with you.

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

You can't have read widely into the Brexit issue, then. If someone's primary reason for voting for Brexit was because they wanted the UK to regain control of negotiating and signing its own trade deals, for instance, how is that selfish?

Because you are wanting to strip rights from millions of people, while putting businesses in a perilous condition just because of sonething 1 person finds important. How is that not a selfish choice?  Not saying its not important to that person. But it's a selfish choice.

Because being selfish is about something that primarily benefits that one individual, not the whole group. The UK restoring its ability to sign new trade arrangements does not benefit one individual, it benefits the whole country, so it's not a selfish endeavour.

But surely no one would vote for it, if they didn't think it would benefit them in one way or the other? And thought more about themselves over the people it would negatively impact?.

[beninho]

The old confuse the argument tactic.

Nope. My point still stands. People act in their own self interest.

[Duty281]

Are you seriously telling me those people carefully consider all the options, read manifestos, do research based on what's being proposed by each of the parties and make an objective judgement? No, they look at the Sun & Daily Fail front page on election day and go "Duh, yeah, those nasty Lefty, Commie Traitors will bankrupt the country, Im voting Tory"

Is this just a very nasty prejudice you're exhibiting, or is there some evidence for it?

No...again it's an observation. Evidence?...see vote count.

For the record, and I know that this is going to sound duplicitous but based on the research I had done up to the point of the Brexit vote I actually voted leave.

The main reason I voted leave was because I took the view that the EU had become far too dysfunctional and disconnected from the majority of working people throughout the continent, I saw it rightly or wrongly as a corrupt organisation in the back pockets of big business that wasn't prepared to listen to the concerns of representatives of individual member states (Cameron). To be fair I still think that is the case but I now accept that a collective (for all its faults) SHOULD be better than the individual sum of parts - if it's perceived that it isn't then there's an obligation to try and change it from the inside, not leave and carp from the sidelines.

But an observation based on what, and what specifically about the vote count? It just sounds very nasty, and unhelpful to your own case, to talk about a group of voters as 'these people' and make snide remarks about their intelligence and critical thinking.

[Duty281]

Sr2, you're a brexit voter, right? We're you duped or do you think you were away of everything that woukd happen, and are happy with it?

You say duped as if you know my reasons for voting leave in the first place which you do not and as it happens I was of what would happen.

It was a question, after all the negotiations and now it's happened, do you feel you got the brexit you thought you were getting? As obviously you didn't have an idea of what brexit would look like. Also, what we're your, presumably selfish, reasons for voting brexit?

Presumably selfish? And you wonder why nobody bothers engaging with you.

Because I can't see a genuine reason for brexit or a reason that any vote wasn't selfish. So, cone on then. Let's hear your reasons.

You can't have read widely into the Brexit issue, then. If someone's primary reason for voting for Brexit was because they wanted the UK to regain control of negotiating and signing its own trade deals, for instance, how is that selfish?

Because you are wanting to strip rights from millions of people, while putting businesses in a perilous condition just because of sonething 1 person finds important. How is that not a selfish choice?  Not saying its not important to that person. But it's a selfish choice.

Because being selfish is about something that primarily benefits that one individual, not the whole group. The UK restoring its ability to sign new trade arrangements does not benefit one individual, it benefits the whole country, so it's not a selfish endeavour.

But surely no one would vote for it, if they didn't think it would benefit them in one way or the other? And thought more about themselves over the people it would negatively impact?.

Some people do definitely vote with others' interest in mind, whether that's other demographics of the population or simply what they perceive to be best for the country as a whole. And if they're voting with what they perceive to be the best interest of the country as a whole then it wouldn't be selfish by definition, and they won't foresee a net-negative impact for either themselves or others.

[beninho]

So, you think people voted for brexit on the basis of thought that, the country woukd benefit from doing its own trade deals, which would be significantly different and better then the deals already in place. And this will impact people beneficially more then losing the rights under free movement etc, and the knock on impact to jobs, musicians, NI etc?

And they balanced that up before voting?

[Duty281]

So, you think people voted for brexit on the basis of thought that, the country woukd benefit from doing its own trade deals, which would be significantly different and better then the deals already in place.  And this will impact people beneficially more then losing the rights under free movement etc, and the knock on impact to jobs, musicians, NI etc?

And they balanced that up before voting?

Some people, yes, not all for that reason, obviously. The trade example was to show one reason that isn't 'selfish'.

[JAS]

Are you seriously telling me those people carefully consider all the options, read manifestos, do research based on what's being proposed by each of the parties and make an objective judgement? No, they look at the Sun & Daily Fail front page on election day and go "Duh, yeah, those nasty Lefty, Commie Traitors will bankrupt the country, Im voting Tory"

Is this just a very nasty prejudice you're exhibiting, or is there some evidence for it?

No...again it's an observation. Evidence?...see vote count.

For the record, and I know that this is going to sound duplicitous but based on the research I had done up to the point of the Brexit vote I actually voted leave.

The main reason I voted leave was because I took the view that the EU had become far too dysfunctional and disconnected from the majority of working people throughout the continent, I saw it rightly or wrongly as a corrupt organisation in the back pockets of big business that wasn't prepared to listen to the concerns of representatives of individual member states (Cameron). To be fair I still think that is the case but I now accept that a collective (for all its faults) SHOULD be better than the individual sum of parts - if it's perceived that it isn't then there's an obligation to try and change it from the inside, not leave and carp from the sidelines.

But an observation based on what, and what specifically about the vote count? It just sounds very nasty, and unhelpful to your own case, to talk about a group of voters as 'these people' and make snide remarks about their intelligence and critical thinking.

Observation based on anecdotal evidence of a circle of contacts, friends, relatives, work contacts, social contacts sometimes extending out to contacts of contacts.

Are you saying that such characterisations as I highlighted don't exist? Or that it's nasty to observe and point out that they do?

Obviously there's a lot more characterisations that could be drawn e.g. idiots like me who overthought the whole Brexit saga and still got it wrong!!

If you were to pile all the leave votes together, and think of all the main drivers for those people that voted leave, what do you think would have been the most common traits/motives?

Also with Brexit, depending on the way you look at now (admittedly with hindsight) there wasn't an option to vote for something better. It was a vote for either to stay the same or vote for something far riskier.

There is an emerging train of thought, we almost touched on it yesterday and I'm not saying I fully buy into it but it goes something like this. People are not happy with the general state of politics in the UK, there are basically two fairly unpalatable choices. Except on the fringes where there is another choice (Scottish & Welsh Nationalism and in NI there is an option of drifting toward republicanism). So the fringes have a Nationalist outlet. England at the core however doesn't have such an outlet so when Brexit came along it was subconsciously seen by many as an alternative, a kind of pseudo opportunity to display a bit of English nationalism. As I said, I don't fully buy into that narrative but I can see the logic in how that theory has been formulated.

[dynamark]

I must be missing something.We are in March 2021 and the third month out of the EU and there are still peppers in Tesco ! amazing stuff electricity is still on and water from the tap.Im not saying its been easy for some business sectors but its not been world end as predicted.
Re UK politics its pretty simple who do you trust to make the decisions that matter and labour have a very long way to go to prove they can be trusted.A lot of their past inroad was based on give aways and populist vote for us we,ll give you x . I happen to think I may never see another labour govt .Corbyn was a fool and starmer has no where to sit .Tories dont get it all right but they have a majority of public trust and thats what we vote for

[McLaren]

Soul Requiem

I am a bit late to this but I would be interesting in hearing why you voted for brexit? In my circle of friends there was pretty much only a few people who admitted to voting for Brexit, so I haven't really had the chance to talk to people about why the voted for it.

[Duty281]

Are you seriously telling me those people carefully consider all the options, read manifestos, do research based on what's being proposed by each of the parties and make an objective judgement? No, they look at the Sun & Daily Fail front page on election day and go "Duh, yeah, those nasty Lefty, Commie Traitors will bankrupt the country, Im voting Tory"

Is this just a very nasty prejudice you're exhibiting, or is there some evidence for it?

No...again it's an observation. Evidence?...see vote count.

For the record, and I know that this is going to sound duplicitous but based on the research I had done up to the point of the Brexit vote I actually voted leave.

The main reason I voted leave was because I took the view that the EU had become far too dysfunctional and disconnected from the majority of working people throughout the continent, I saw it rightly or wrongly as a corrupt organisation in the back pockets of big business that wasn't prepared to listen to the concerns of representatives of individual member states (Cameron). To be fair I still think that is the case but I now accept that a collective (for all its faults) SHOULD be better than the individual sum of parts - if it's perceived that it isn't then there's an obligation to try and change it from the inside, not leave and carp from the sidelines.

But an observation based on what, and what specifically about the vote count? It just sounds very nasty, and unhelpful to your own case, to talk about a group of voters as 'these people' and make snide remarks about their intelligence and critical thinking.

Observation based on anecdotal evidence of a circle of contacts, friends, relatives, work contacts, social contacts sometimes extending out to contacts of contacts.

Are you saying that such characterisations as I highlighted don't exist? Or that it's nasty to observe and point out that they do?

Obviously there's a lot more characterisations that could be drawn e.g. idiots like me who overthought the whole Brexit saga and still got it wrong!!

If you were to pile all the leave votes together, and think of all the main drivers for those people that voted leave, what do you think would have been the most common traits/motives?

Also with Brexit, depending on the way you look at now (admittedly with hindsight) there wasn't an option to vote for something better. It was a vote for either to stay the same or vote for something far riskier.

There is an emerging train of thought, we almost touched on it yesterday and I'm not saying I fully buy into it but it goes something like this. People are not happy with the general state of politics in the UK, there are basically two fairly unpalatable choices. Except on the fringes where there is another choice (Scottish & Welsh Nationalism and in NI there is an option of drifting toward republicanism). So the fringes have a Nationalist outlet. England at the core however doesn't have such an outlet so when Brexit came along it was subconsciously seen by many as an alternative, a kind of pseudo opportunity to display a bit of English nationalism. As I said, I don't fully buy into that narrative but I can see the logic in how that theory has been formulated.

They only exist in a tiny minority. To say whole groups of people only voted Tory because they had been duped/certain newspapers told them to/imply they're incapable of objective judgement is wide of the mark. And you also may be missing that this tiny minority also exists for Labour voters.

The vote for Brexit wasn't necessarily a vote between two things that were either good or bad. It was a vote to decide who governs the country, and which direction of travel we wanted to go down (broadly either a United States of Europe or not).

I see where you're coming from with the last paragraph, but ultimately Plaid Cymru is largely another Labour Party with Welsh Nationalism sprinkled in, the SNP the same only with Scottish Nationalism. A main difference between those two entities is the latter has become cult-like with Sturgeon at the helm. There may have been a sprinkle of English nationalism in the Brexit vote, but that sort of nationalism is pretty expired.

[JAS]

I must be missing something.We are in March 2021 and the third month out of the EU and there are still peppers in Tesco ! amazing stuff electricity is still on and water from the tap.Im not saying its been easy for some business sectors but its not been world end as predicted.
Re UK politics its pretty simple who do you trust to make the decisions that matter and labour have a very long way to go to prove they can be trusted.A lot of their past inroad was based on give aways and populist vote for us  we,ll give you x . I happen to think I may never see another labour govt .Corbyn was a fool and starmer has no where to sit .Tories dont get it all right but they have a majority of public trust and thats what we vote for

Coming from Leicestershire Dyna I'm pretty sure you're not involved with the fishing industry? Admittedly that's a very small fraction and yes you're right the world hasn't fallen apart like Cameron, Osbourne & yes Brown et al too predicted.
Day to day though, we don't see the queues at the channel ports, the disruption of supply chains (that may or may not have an effect down the line). Both sides of the debate clearly lied/exaggerated the effect of staying/leaving and since then Brexit has been dwarfed by something MUCH bigger and the world still hasn't fallen apart.

I'm beginning to think we may never see another Labour government either, not because I don't believe there should be, Christ there should, but the left is, I think irreversibly split between the unelectable Corbynite principled Socialist faction and the focus group led, Tory lite former Blairite faction led by Starmer. Starmer I see as a clever bloke who would genuinely want to do the best he could for Labour and the Country but there's too many in his own party that won't unite behind him (quid pro quo for the Blairites that backstabbed Corbyn persistently).That split though is actually a bigger chasm than the Pro/anti European Tory split that was and that's saying something. That means that it cannot hold the centre ground with any stability and it WILL inevitably lead to a break up of the party probably post '24 if Starmer flops.

[JAS]

The vote for Brexit wasn't necessarily a vote between two things that were either good or bad. It was a vote to decide who governs the country, and which direction of travel we wanted to go down (broadly either a United States of Europe or not).

In broad big picture terms yes...that was the gist of how it was framed by many....and there was an element of that that pushed me toward NO.

The European Project when it was the EEC was fine, when it started integrating closer is where it started going wrong and and much as I detested the woman, when Thatcher stood her ground over Maastricht she was bang on.

The steps that were made toward integration were clumsy at best, downright cynical at worst, depending on how you viewed it. To go for Monetary union but not fiscal union was the absolute red flag that the EU was completely and utterly dysfunctional. The dictats by the ECB that countries couldn't run deficits left countries like Greece with absolutely nowhere else to go except default and lifetime debt subservience to Germany (realistically the only country capable of running a permanent surplus in the EU bloc). So I thought the way to go was for Britain to try an use its influence to steer the EU back to a more loosely coupled group. It became clear though that the group didn't want to listen to Cameron or provide any sort of scope that could lead to a cessation of further integration, I could only assume that there were big vested interests pushing for further integration to suit their own ends. So there was a strong case for saying "F*** 'em, leave them to it" and I admit I fell for that. In retrospect though the right thing to do was to stay and fight to try and put things on a better footing.

[navyblueshorts]

The vote for Brexit wasn't necessarily a vote between two things that were either good or bad. It was a vote to decide who governs the country, and which direction of travel we wanted to go down (broadly either a United States of Europe or not).

In broad big picture terms yes...that was the gist of how it was framed by many....and there was an element of that that pushed me toward NO.

The European Project when it was the EEC was fine, when it started integrating closer is where it started going wrong and and much as I detested the woman, when Thatcher stood her ground over Maastricht she was bang on.

The steps that were made toward integration were clumsy at best, downright cynical at worst, depending on how you viewed it. To go for Monetary union but not fiscal union was the absolute red flag that the EU was completely and utterly dysfunctional. The dictats by the ECB that countries couldn't run deficits left countries like Greece with absolutely nowhere else to go except default and lifetime debt subservience to Germany (realistically the only country capable of running a permanent surplus in the EU bloc). So I thought the way to go was for Britain to try an use its influence to steer the EU back to a more loosely coupled group. It became clear though that the group didn't want to listen to Cameron or provide any sort of scope that could lead to a cessation of further integration, I could only assume that there were  big vested interests pushing for further integration to suit their own ends. So there was a strong case for saying "F*** 'em, leave them to it" and I admit I fell for that. In retrospect though the right thing to do was to stay and fight to try and put things on a better footing.

I think many are missing the link w/ the Brexit vote and those who felt that the political class for far too long had ignored them on anything - jobs, immigration etc etc. A bloody nose vote? I think so, largely. Will it fix the issues? Nope. This is what you get, though, when you have minnows and pipsqueaks for our politicians. They may be bright, intellectually, some of them, but they're scheisse politicians and too many are far too removed and/or don't give a 4X.

[JAS]

Sad news on the Saint :-(

Who didn't like saint & Greavesie

[beninho]

The thing with brexit is, it could be many different things to many different people.

As Duty281 says, for some it was about who governs the country. So if you "think" Europe did, you want brexit.

People see asylum seekers and think being out of Europe means treating them differently.

Sone didn't like the EU and wanted brexut for that.

Sone still rage about straight bananas and different light bulbs.


It could be what you wanted. An imaginary utopia.

[beninho]

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/hapless-defra-secretary-eustice-humiliated-and-schooled-by-the-eu/

Tory mp is deliberately trying to twist things to put blame back on the EU for the shellfish conditions after brexit.

I'm sure even brexiteers can see how wrong and daft this guy is coming across.

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