Rest of the World

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Duty281 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Duty281 wrote:So the most likely scenario is an Australia/New Zealand final at Lord's.

There are many things wrong with the WTC - points system is convulsed and perhaps not particularly fair - but Test cricket at neutral venues is something worth getting excited about! Shame it is only one game.

Yeah, I can't personally say that I am a fan of the WTC. The points system doesn't work properly, fixtures are of unequal value and weighting, and boiling an entire test championship down to one solitary fixture to decide the winner doesn't seem right to me.

That said, I think that Australia and New Zealand are the two best test teams in the world right now and, if that is the final, it would be the right fixture. A shame, as you say, that it's only one game and not, at least, a three-game series.

The current system is a temporary fudge to get around the unforseen situation and make the best of whatever fixtures could be fulfilled.

Had it gone to plan all the teams wouldve played home and away fixtures and had equal opportunities to earn points. That hasnt been the case, but at the same time I dont think anyone can argue theres not a clear top 3 teams with England sat just behind them and the rest of the world a significant step back from that.

One off game may be a bit unfair in that the toss could well play a major part in deciding it, but its always been about providing a focused big televised event rather than genuine competition. However the remaining fixtures pan out we should end up with two teams who deserve to be in the final even if New Zealand have just played at home. A long series in a neutral country just isn't viable in the modern calendar or that interesting to anything other than the hardcore fans.

One for Olly... Ashwin tagging Tim Paine in his celebratory tweet is levels of pettiness I aspire too!

https://twitter.com/ashwinravi99/status/1351445544414146563?s=21

Id be surprised if they make those changes ahead of the SA series and whilst they still have a chance at making the WTC.

As we discussed yesterday they are already looking for an opener, an all rounder and a mid order bat as well as back up for the front 4 bowlers. To find a new keeper and bed in a new captain and coach at the same time would be a big ripping up of the team for a tour thats in just a months time, and when theres not first class cricket being played at home for players to be knocking on the door from. Wade as a keeper certainly wouldn't be taking Aus forwards.

Labuschagne is only 18 tests into his career and asking him to captain to his own country would certainly be a thing. There will be a fair amount of pressure on him already.

Despite this loss they can still make the WTC final by beating SA who are in a even more of a pickle. If they don't make it it will be the right time for the leadership to resign.

If India can do this with a weakened team away from home, heaven knows what they are going to be like at home against England with a stronger side.

I suggested on here last match that maybe the India players are happier under Rahane than Kohli but doubted whether any captaincy change would be made.

Well whatever happens Rahane can always say: "We'll always have Brisbane."

Gooseberry wrote:Id be surprised if they make those changes ahead of the SA series and whilst they still have a chance at making the WTC.

As we discussed yesterday they are already looking for an opener, an all rounder and a mid order bat as well as back up for the front 4 bowlers. To find a new keeper and bed in a new captain and coach at the same time would be a big ripping up of the team for a tour thats in just a months time, and when theres not first class cricket being played at home for players to be knocking on the door from.  Wade as a keeper certainly wouldn't be taking Aus forwards.

Labuschagne is only 18 tests into his career and asking him to captain to his own country would certainly be a thing. There will be a fair amount of pressure on him already.

Despite this loss they can still make the WTC final by beating SA who are in a even more of a pickle. If they don't make it it will be the right time for the leadership to resign.

Presuming they do beat South Africa by a comfortable margin, it looks like we're heading for a India-Australia final now. What a rematch that could be!

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Another shockingly poor decision from me not to stay up and watch that. Incredible innings from Pant, and reading through the comments looks like even with 60 to get it would have been easy to shut up shop and take the 1-1. Credit to Gill too - not sure they can even consider going for it without his 91 at the clip he made it. Rahane in as skipper permanently?

Good luck England...

Tactically choosing to ignore we've got to play India 9 times in the next 6-9 months

More choosing to ingest this sort of content - https://twitter.com/vitu_e/status/1351442271686848513?s=21

After Sri Lanka, it's four tests against India, two against New Zealand, five against India, and five against Australia.

By the end of the year we might be thinking 'will England ever win again?'.

Duty281 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Id be surprised if they make those changes ahead of the SA series and whilst they still have a chance at making the WTC.

As we discussed yesterday they are already looking for an opener, an all rounder and a mid order bat as well as back up for the front 4 bowlers. To find a new keeper and bed in a new captain and coach at the same time would be a big ripping up of the team for a tour thats in just a months time, and when theres not first class cricket being played at home for players to be knocking on the door from.  Wade as a keeper certainly wouldn't be taking Aus forwards.

Labuschagne is only 18 tests into his career and asking him to captain to his own country would certainly be a thing. There will be a fair amount of pressure on him already.

Despite this loss they can still make the WTC final by beating SA who are in a even more of a pickle. If they don't make it it will be the right time for the leadership to resign.

Presuming they do beat South Africa by a comfortable margin, it looks like we're heading for a India-Australia final now. What a rematch that could be!

I think, if my maths is right and I understand the rules (either could be letting me down here), that Australia need to beat SA either 2-0 or 3-0 to make the final. 2-1 wouldn't cut it.
Should be a good series, SA obviously not as strong as they have been in previous series against Australia, but similarly not totally bereft of talent, particularly if they get Rabada fit and firing.

Duty281 wrote:

After Sri Lanka, it's four tests against India, two against New Zealand, five against India, and five against Australia.

By the end of the year we might be thinking 'will England ever win again?'.

England should beat India comfortably enough at home and I can the New Zealand series being drawn.

Fantastic match...great end to a remarkable series. Had to go out to practice so missed the finish and celebrations ... But it was clear after those two mad overs where they took Cummins and Lyon for 26 that India were wining this...tremendous performance

Can take nothing from India : lost two thirds of their preferred team , came to the Gabba Fortress , lost the toss and another bowler almost immediately...and still set a huge record chase to win on a pitch that was fizzing and popping on the last day. ... I am in awe . Thoroughly deserved series victory. A tribute to Rahane - and Shastri I guess - for managing morale and coming back from the wreckage of Adelaide.

I do have some criticisms of Australia but will save for another post ...this is all about Well Done India

Well, an utterly emotional moment, just don't have the words, even after I postponed the post here!. Just absolutely incredible! what a wonderful game this is!. What a performance from the Indian team! absolutely proud!

Pant, Gill, Sundar. The youngsters stepped up brilliantly! And a wonderful, firm foundation put together by Cheteshwar Pujara, who, as the skipper pointed out at the end, deserves every bit of credit as Pant and Gill and everyone else for doing what he did!

From the depth of 36 all out to here, what an incredible journey. Thought that ghost wasn't going to be berried any time soon. But what an emphatic way to that and more!

One thing that's slipped unde rather radar has been starts returns as the series has progressed.
4/53 in the first innings of the series, 4 wickets in the second test then 2/290 in the last two tests.

Only one second innings wicket in the series. Signs of fatigue perhaps?

Scuppered my leap up the tipping contest table if nothing else

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

After Sri Lanka, it's four tests against India, two against New Zealand, five against India, and five against Australia.

By the end of the year we might be thinking 'will England ever win again?'.

England should beat India comfortably enough at home and I can the New Zealand series being drawn.

Define "comfortably".

Starc was fairly obviously knackered after Sydney , I thought. I am a little surprised they didn't rest him.. Think they would have done so had Pattinson still been in the squad but it appears they didn't trust the other reserves. Also maybe a touch of arrogance ? We always win at the Gabba ?

Paine has shown a few times now he's not got a great grasp of tactics , especially when under second innings pressure. He did a good job in restoring morale after SA , but I think his time is about up - though I'm not sure who replaces him.  Cummins has enough on his plate surely...Smith is still a bit on the nose and I'm not sure Labuschagne is the right sort of personality to lead the side - though could be
totally wrong there.

Glaring error today was the ridiculous underuse of Green : 3 overs ? And he's supposed to be there as the fifth bowler ...could surely have put in a proper shift and left poor Cummins and Hazlewood (neither of whom deserved to be on the losing side ) with a bit of petrol in the tank for the always likely to be vital second new ball attack.
Could also have used Labuschagne a bit - even though I think he's basically wristy rubbish , he might have fluked a wicket and at least given Lyon a break. All smacked of having plan A and nothing in reserve...

But there it is. Had to lose one at the Gabba eventually , I guess. And India really did deserve the trophy - and after today , the series as well.
Australia have some thinking to do ahead of the SA tour - if it goes ahead.

And aren't the records for fourth innings run chases being rewritten seemingly every week these days ? All the t20 stuff seems to have changed what is seen as achievable , and batsmen are going for - and getting - targets that would have been unthinkable even ten years
ago.

Test Cricket still the best ...and aren't we lucky to be able to watch it all round the world these days ?  

Pal Joey wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

After Sri Lanka, it's four tests against India, two against New Zealand, five against India, and five against Australia.

By the end of the year we might be thinking 'will England ever win again?'.

England should beat India comfortably enough at home and I can the New Zealand series being drawn.

Define "comfortably".

It will be an evenly contested series but I can see England coming out on top 3-1. There will be a couple of sub 100 run wins like there were back in 2017 and I can see India winning big in the first or second test. I just get the feeling that there batting line up is set up to excel on bouncy rather than swinging pitches. They'll probably win 4-0 at home however.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

After Sri Lanka, it's four tests against India, two against New Zealand, five against India, and five against Australia.

By the end of the year we might be thinking 'will England ever win again?'.

England should beat India comfortably enough at home and I can the New Zealand series being drawn.

Ha ! England never do anything "comfortably " . But I'm less pessimistic than Duty about the prospects for the year ahead.
Think they are gradually improving, if still not the finished article . May get smashed : may surprise ; even abroad. I will wait and see.

alfie wrote:Starc was fairly obviously knackered after Sydney , I thought. I am a little surprised they didn't rest him.. Think they would have done so had Pattinson still been in the squad but it appears they didn't trust the other reserves. Also maybe a touch of arrogance ? We always win at the Gabba ?

Paine has shown a few times now he's not got a great grasp of tactics , especially when under second innings pressure. He did a good job in restoring morale after SA , but I think his time is about up - though I'm not sure who replaces him.  Cummins has enough on his plate surely...Smith is still a bit on the nose and I'm not sure Labuschagne is the right sort of personality to lead the side - though could be
totally wrong there.

Glaring error today was the ridiculous underuse of Green : 3 overs ? And he's supposed to be there as the fifth bowler ...could surely have put in a proper shift and left poor Cummins and Hazlewood (neither of whom deserved to be on the losing side ) with a bit of petrol in the tank for the always likely to be vital second new ball attack.
Could also have used Labuschagne a bit - even though I think he's basically wristy rubbish , he might have fluked a wicket and at least given Lyon a break. All smacked of having plan A and nothing in reserve...

But there it is. Had to lose one at the Gabba eventually , I guess. And India really did deserve the trophy - and after today , the series as well.
Australia have some thinking to do ahead of the SA tour - if it goes ahead.

And aren't the records for fourth innings run chases being rewritten seemingly every week these days ? All the t20 stuff seems to have changed what is seen as achievable , and batsmen are going for - and getting - targets that would have been unthinkable even ten years
ago.

Test Cricket still the best ...and aren't we lucky to be able to watch it all round the world these days ?  

Also we aren't seeing pitches crack and crumble as much as would've been the case historically.

Do agree that Green was underbowled, but Ill go back time and again to the fact he's still not taken a test wicket in the overs he has been given. He has however been economical, so when looking to tie Pant down should've been an option rather than seeing Starc get carted all over the ground.

Easy in hindsight of course but does seem Australia have been stung again by their reliance on a few superstars, and not trusting the reserves. India arguably benefitted by some of the injuries and issues they've had on tour, they had to be forced to pick Pant and Gill but that panned out pretty well, as did Sundar of all people!


As for England, India is going to be very tough to visit, any positive results would be huge. New Zealand tests I assume are before the WTC final? If they are in that they will be very fired up and it will give them an ideal warm up. They have a side well capable of playing on English pitches and will be tough to face. India at home, really hard to know. The last series was full of swings and England were arguably lucky to escape with a series win. This looks like a better squad, but so much depends on how fired up they are....they do seem to save their best for trips to Australia. With those being after the WTC final, if they are in it, they will be better warmed up than many tours but it will be seen as an anti climax. Away Ashes ...Australia could well be on a pretty comprehensive rebuild but if their front line bowlers are fit will be a rough ride.

Its been an emotionally draining day for many of us watching Indian team for ages.
And hoping for once in a life time miracle...have seen three miraculous tests in a row.
My thoughts on the game and series:

>In the aftermath of remarkable "Bouncability" , Fearlessness and Refusal to Die attitude of Rahane led team....it will be asked if it is owing to absence of Kohli

I think the answer is yes.
Does this mean Kohli should be replaced and Rahane a better captain?

No not right...I think kohli the taskmaster, pushing himself team, kicking everyone's back side, thru his overbearing personality has shaped the team into discipline & fighting mental frame. The core and the attitude of the team is because of Kohli.
His absence though was like a spring decompressed and allowing everyone to expand and express.
The lesson Kohli should learn...is he has brought them far pushing and must get more relaxed himself and give more space to team members......listen more to the ViceCapt, Ashwin, Rohit etal

The two areas that Rahane was definitely better in.....no whimsical last minute selections like Kohli did.
More prompt & more astute in making changes on field.

>The game itself was as oft referred to by Aussie commentators like a Heavy weight boxing match...both trading blow for blow and staring each other in the eye.
Until just after tea.....when Aus visibly flinched in fear of defeat.
Paine spread the fields with many boundary riders...and his bowlers started bowling wide / defensive lines
Generally when fear of defeat grips you...you start sliding down an unstoppable slippery slope in a high intensity fight like this one

> The Indian team was fearless...kept coming back.....and demonstrated an unbelievable depth of reserves...Shardul, Washington & Siraj will be contenders for the first XI at anytime.

A lot was said about India carrying 3 No.11s...but what wasn't oft said that the top-8 for this test was probably with more fire power than any other test side in the world....even covering the holes left by Kohli adequately.
As I said earlier it only will need one and half of Rohit-Pant-Gill to fire
and two of them fired 3/4th ...and with other around them took us thru.

> Aus cannot go on with Paine as a captain
His batting from No.7 is doughty and keeping OK......he sucks as a captain...too much reliant on the formula of same 4 bowlers..too defensive & wilts under assault as seen multiple times now in Eng and here.

Green as an bowler has talent but won't blossom under Paine.
Paine juts refused to see Indians are So comfortable against Lyon & Starc was so on dimensional and off radar.

They've gotta bring Smith back as a Captain

Difficult to be critical of Australia's overall Test record in recent years but they do tend to lose the tight matches, don't they.

It's also perhaps harsh to criticise a man who has almost 400 Test wickets but I've never been a big fan of Lyon. He should have bowled India out today and probably at Sydney last week and he should have won the match at Leeds in 2019.

You also have to think that India's long 4th innings rearguard at Sydney so tired the Aussie bowlers that they had little left on the long 5th day today.

Paine probably should be replaced. But he'll probably carry on for now as there is no obvious choice for captain.

You also have to think that India's long 4th innings rearguard at Sydney so tired the Aussie bowlers that they had little left on the long 5th day today.

TBF it would be epic level trolling to bring Smith back as captain for their first visit to SA since sandpaper gate, and have a South African batsman who averages 60 in the side when they are struggling to find one who can average 40.

KP_fan wrote:Its been an emotionally draining day for many of us watching Indian team for ages.
And hoping for once in a life time miracle...have seen three miraculous tests in a row.
My thoughts on the game and series:

>In the aftermath of remarkable "Bouncability" , Fearlessness and Refusal to Die attitude of Rahane led team....it will be asked if it is owing to absence of Kohli

I think the answer is yes.
Does this mean Kohli should be replaced and Rahane a better captain?

No not right...I think kohli the taskmaster, pushing himself team, kicking everyone's back side, thru his overbearing personality  has shaped the team into discipline & fighting mental frame. The core and the attitude of the team is because of Kohli.
His absence though was  like a spring  decompressed and allowing everyone to expand and express.
The lesson Kohli should learn...is he has brought them far pushing and must get more relaxed himself and give more space to team members......listen more to the ViceCapt,  Ashwin, Rohit etal

The two areas that Rahane was definitely better in.....no whimsical last minute selections like Kohli did.
More prompt & more astute in making changes on field.

>The game itself was as oft referred to by Aussie commentators like a Heavy weight boxing match...both trading blow for blow and staring each other in the eye.
Until just after tea.....when Aus visibly flinched in fear of defeat.
Paine spread the fields with many boundary riders...and his bowlers started bowling wide / defensive lines
Generally when fear of defeat grips you...you start  sliding down an unstoppable slippery slope in a high intensity fight like this one

> The Indian team was fearless...kept coming back.....and demonstrated an unbelievable depth of reserves...Shardul, Washington & Siraj will be contenders for the first XI at anytime.

A lot was said about India carrying 3 No.11s...but what wasn't oft said that the top-8 for this test was probably with more fire power than any other test side in the world....even covering the holes left by Kohli adequately.
As I said earlier it only will need one and half of Rohit-Pant-Gill to fire
and two of them fired 3/4th ...and with other around them took us thru.    

> Aus cannot go on with Paine as a captain
His batting from No.7 is doughty and keeping OK......he sucks as a captain...too much reliant on the formula of same 4 bowlers..too defensive & wilts under assault as seen multiple times now in Eng and here.

Green as an bowler has talent but won't blossom under Paine.
Paine juts refused to see Indians are So comfortable against Lyon & Starc was so on dimensional and off radar.

They've gotta bring Smith back as a Captain

KPF, agree with most of what you said about India in this post. Kohli's absance in a way kind of facilitated the team, in the sense that it gave them focus, also in the knowledge that their best batsman won't be there to save them and they'll have to do it all by themselves. Rahane seemed to have provided a good environment for the side to do what they did. But yes, it is Kohli who got this side into shape. It is he who pushed the most for the fast bowling revolution that has played such an important role. He may have pushed the likes of Ashwin and Pujara too much at times, but this is Kohli's victory too and though there could be calls for Rahane to be made the test captain, I would agree entirely with you, while there are learnings that Kohli can take from this win, and can relax a bit, this is Kohli's team for sure!
India having 3 number 11s? Don't think that is escapable. We not only went in with 3 number 11s this game but one of them was utterly and comically inept and probably couldn't differentiate between handle and middle of the bat! Poor Natarajan! What an entertainer he was with the bat! But what a tour, what a fairytale he has had! He is not likely to be one of the first reserves for the test side any time soon, but he is a solid limited overs prospect, and even if he may end up as a one test wonder, what a wonderful one test that would be!
KPF, you mentioned, Pant and Gill. But our man Pujara! He hasn't had the same kind of success as he had last time round when he went touring Australia. But nobody can deny him the credit for helping the side achieve what it has this time round as well. He may not have scored as many as last time, but he still averaged 116 balls per dismissal.

As for Australia, think the questions on Paine's captaincy would now get louder and legitimately so. Didn't seem a very good tactical captain, and though he has had one of his better test series with the bat, his keeping was ordinary and lets not even talk about his UDRS record! And as KPF said, Cameron Green is unlikely to develop into a half-decent bowling option under Paine though the lad has potential. He has the build, he has the pace. He may not have taken a wicket in nearly 40 overs of bowling in short, holding or end change overs, but they should invest a bit more in his bowling. He seems to have more than Mitch Marsh with both bat and ball as far as potential is concerned, it is also about using it in the best possible manner and Tim Paine doesn't seem to be the captain who can do that.
Smith as captain? I wouldn't be surprised if Australia end up going there, but think he really doesn't deserve to do that job again, after what they did in his charge... Cummins seems sharp not just as a bowler, but as a leadership material as well. Else it has to be Labuschagne.
Australia need to find a reliable opening bat to partner Warner, young Pucovski has potential but he seems a bit too fragile. Think they need to invest in him though, and hope he would be able to find a way around the short balls soon. Would be a test against Rabada and Nortje if that series goes ahead.
They also need to find a better middle order bat, Wade always feels stop-gap, Head isn't quite up there. Who else can come in?
And they actually need a better wicketkeeper who can keep and bat better. I am impressed with Alex Carey in the limited overs. Though you are less challenged as a keeper there, he seems to be a safe keeper, and a decent bat with a very fine temperament.

A think that struck me just now, is that for India only 2 players managed to play all 4 tests, Cheteshwar Pujara, and Ajinkya Rahane! Australia played all their 4 bowlers throughout the series. In fact other than the openers for this game, the rest all played all the 4 tests.

Great to see just how much world-wide coverage this Test has got. One English paper has gone as far to say that the match has "saved Test cricket".

That may be an exaggeration, but it may have saved FIVE-DAY Tests in that the result was in doubt deep into the final hour of the match at both Sydney and Brisbane.

There's been some excellent articles on this dramatic final day, none better than the Sydney Morning Herald piece by Greg Baum that I produce here:
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/thank-you-and-good-night-india-20210119-p56vd9.html

msp83 wrote:A think that struck me just now, is that for India only 2 players managed to play all 4 tests, Cheteshwar Pujara, and Ajinkya Rahane! Australia played all their 4 bowlers throughout the series. In fact other than the openers for this game, the rest all played all the 4 tests.

...and as noted Starcs exhaustion by the final day may have been the difference that made India's heist possible.

Quite a stat there. England got through 30 players in the '89 Ashes with just two playing all the games, but that was a 6 test series.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Id be surprised if they make those changes ahead of the SA series and whilst they still have a chance at making the WTC.

As we discussed yesterday they are already looking for an opener, an all rounder and a mid order bat as well as back up for the front 4 bowlers. To find a new keeper and bed in a new captain and coach at the same time would be a big ripping up of the team for a tour thats in just a months time, and when theres not first class cricket being played at home for players to be knocking on the door from.  Wade as a keeper certainly wouldn't be taking Aus forwards.

Labuschagne is only 18 tests into his career and asking him to captain to his own country would certainly be a thing. There will be a fair amount of pressure on him already.

Despite this loss they can still make the WTC final by beating SA who are in a even more of a pickle. If they don't make it it will be the right time for the leadership to resign.

Presuming they do beat South Africa by a comfortable margin, it looks like we're heading for a India-Australia final now. What a rematch that could be!

I think, if my maths is right and I understand the rules (either could be letting me down here), that Australia need to beat SA either 2-0 or 3-0 to make the final. 2-1 wouldn't cut it.
Should be a good series, SA obviously not as strong as they have been in previous series against Australia, but similarly not totally bereft of talent, particularly if they get Rabada fit and firing.

Yes, I think that's right - 2-0 or 3-0 to make the final. Anything worse would let New Zealand in ahead of them. An abandoned series would also cost Australia a place in the final. I think Australia should be able to achieve a two or three nil win, but of course a lot depends on how they pick themselves up after this gruelling defeat.

India need to win at least three tests out of the four against England to guarantee themselves a place in the final. Anything worse than that opens the door for a Aus/NZ final.

And England just need the small matter of beating Sri Lanka this week followed by a 3 or 4 nil win in India. Absolute doddle. 

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

After Sri Lanka, it's four tests against India, two against New Zealand, five against India, and five against Australia.

By the end of the year we might be thinking 'will England ever win again?'.

England should beat India comfortably enough at home and I can the New Zealand series being drawn.

I think it'll be a very tight series against both teams (if the NZ one happens, not 100% confirmed yet). Hopefully a great summer with crowds at the ground whichever way the results go.

I agree with the consensus that Paine over-bowled his four main bowlers and didn't use the 5th or 6th option often enough (especially Green). As voiced earlier I was surprised that Australia didn't rotate their seamers during this series, either. 

India batted a total duration of 441 overs in their final four innings of this series. Starc bowled 80. Hazlewood bowled 94. Cummins bowled 99. Lyon bowled 136. Green bowled 23. Labuschagne bowled 9. Any wonder the three main seamers were exhausted, after bowling that many overs in hot conditions?! The seamers also had to expend a lot of energy in those overs banging it in short, especially during the post-lunch period yesterday when Australia lost the plot and resorted to barely anything other than bouncers.

Duty281 wrote:I agree with the consensus that Paine over-bowled his four main bowlers and didn't use the 5th or 6th option often enough (especially Green). As voiced earlier I was surprised that Australia didn't rotate their seamers during this series, either. 

India batted a total duration of 441 overs in their final four innings of this series. Starc bowled 80. Hazlewood bowled 94. Cummins bowled 99. Lyon bowled 136. Green bowled 23. Labuschagne bowled 9. Any wonder the three main seamers were exhausted, after bowling that many overs in hot conditions?! The seamers also had to expend a lot of energy in those overs banging it in short, especially during the post-lunch period yesterday when Australia lost the plot and resorted to barely anything other than bouncers.

Worth noting Jofra bowled 156 overs in 4 Ashes tests with almost no first class cricket under his belt and coming off the back of the world cup, 42 in an innings in New Zealand, and 126 in 4 tests last summer. Sure its not as hot in England but that only causes discomfort at the time of bowling rather than any actual additional attrition to the body over a series. Starc was absolutely goosed by the time this test started and bowled noticeably less than Cummins who remained effective through the series. He only had a but part role in the white ball stuff too so cant blame that. 80 overs is not an excessive load across 4 tests even for a legit quick, cant help thinking their might be a low level wear and tear injury hampering him a bit.

One of things I felt Langer and the Aussies did well when they were over in England in 2019 was rotate their seamers. Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc, Siddle and Pattinson - a stable of five seamers who could all be relied upon to be called in and bowl. Yet there didn’t appear to be any thought of doing that between Tests vs India.

Siddle obviously retired but think Pattinson is fit and Jhye Richardson is a top prospect. Not sure if having Green as the fifth bowler made them complacent, but he isn’t a fifth bowler if you don’t use him! Other guys like Neser knocking about too.

Certainly the template for England later this anyway. Bat long and suck the juice out of the Aussies bowlers. Hopefully we are on the way to getting a bat line up who can do that.

Gooseberry wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I agree with the consensus that Paine over-bowled his four main bowlers and didn't use the 5th or 6th option often enough (especially Green). As voiced earlier I was surprised that Australia didn't rotate their seamers during this series, either. 

India batted a total duration of 441 overs in their final four innings of this series. Starc bowled 80. Hazlewood bowled 94. Cummins bowled 99. Lyon bowled 136. Green bowled 23. Labuschagne bowled 9. Any wonder the three main seamers were exhausted, after bowling that many overs in hot conditions?! The seamers also had to expend a lot of energy in those overs banging it in short, especially during the post-lunch period yesterday when Australia lost the plot and resorted to barely anything other than bouncers.

Worth noting Jofra bowled 156 overs in 4 Ashes tests with almost no first class cricket under his belt and coming off the back of the world cup, 42 in an innings in New Zealand, and 126 in 4 tests last summer. Sure its not as hot in England but that only causes discomfort at the time of bowling rather than any actual additional attrition to the body over a series. Starc was absolutely goosed by the time this test started and bowled noticeably less than Cummins who remained effective through the series. He only had a but part role in the white ball stuff too so cant blame that. 80 overs is not an excessive load across 4 tests even for a legit quick, cant help thinking their might be a low level wear and tear injury hampering him a bit.

80 overs across the last four innings of the series. He bowled 137 overs in the whole series (Hazlewood 144.4, Cummins 162.1).

Indian squad announced for the first 2 tests against England. Of course Kohli returns to lead the side, and both R Ashwin and Jasprit Bumrah are expected to be fit and ready for the first test. Ishant Sharma returns after injury. Washington Sundar is retained, and Axar Patel is the other spin bowling all-round option. Ravindra Jadeja, Mohammed Shami and Umesh Yadav are unavailable for selection with injury rehabilitation. The 3 may be ready for the last 2 games.
The one surprising call is to call up Hardik Pandya into the squad, seemingly as a batsman only. Kohli had earlier maintained that Pandya needs to bowl to be considered for tests, but it seems the selectors convinced him otherwise, in order to facilitate Hardik's full return as all-rounder in time for the England tour later this year. There is no place for T Natarajan in the test squad and opener Prithvi Shaw is dropped.

JDizzle wrote:One of things I felt Langer and the Aussies did well when they were over in England in 2019 was rotate their seamers. Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc, Siddle and Pattinson - a stable of five seamers who could all be relied upon to be called in and bowl. Yet there didn’t appear to be any thought of doing that between Tests vs India.

Siddle obviously retired but think Pattinson is fit and Jhye Richardson is a top prospect. Not sure if having Green as the fifth bowler made them complacent, but he isn’t a fifth bowler if you don’t use him! Other guys like Neser knocking about too.

Certainly the template for England later this anyway. Bat long and suck the juice out of the Aussies bowlers. Hopefully we are on the way to getting a bat line up who can do that.

We used that template in 2019 and it's a major reason why we came out of that series 2-2, once the batsmen knuckled down and batted long the Aussie bowling became less effective not withstanding Cummins. Stokes rightly gets most of the credit for Headingley but without Root and Denly digging deep it doesn't even become reasonably possible, before he launched that ridiculous assault they had 100 overs in their legs already. Pujara was vital to the India chase yesterday and in years to come his role will be forgotten.

I always felt that was more of a reaction to the 67ao than a predetermined plan to grind it out. They were just trying to avoid another humiliation with the bat! But it certainly worked and shows they can do it - and with hopefully improvements to batting line up with guys like Pope, Crawley and possibly Sibley over Roy and Denly it does give some hope.

No doubt everyone is still buzzing, boisterous and bubbly after Brisbane, so it could be time to put the win - and the whole series -into context.

Brisbane has been described as one of the great Test wins and the series as one of the finest. Certainly if you chuck in the stats - 36 all out in first Test, no Kohli after that, numerous injuries - the whole tour was a triumph.

So what can it be compared with in terms of overall series excitement coupled with an extraordinary turnaround? I offer a by no means exhaustive or definitive list off the top of my head.

1. 2005 Ashes. The Edgbaston drama after a decisive Aussie win in the first Test, the tight Nottingham finish, a closely fought series throughout and result of series in doubt until deep into final day of series.

2. 2001 India v Aus - A comeback to end all comebacks with the Laxman-Dravid stand after India has been steamrollered in the 1st Test and much of the second. Then a nail-biter in the 3rd Test before India edged home.

3. 1981 Eng v Aus - England staring down the barrel of a 2-0 deficit before the miracle of Headingley part one*, another nailbiter at Birmingham, more Botham heroics at Manchester and a 3-1 win for England.

4. 1960-61 Aus v WI - The tied Test, the last-pair gallantry by Aus to save the 4th Test and a narrow two-wicket win by the hosts to clinch the 5th Test and the series.

5. 1954-55 Aus v Eng - England absolutely hammered in the 1st Test (Tyson 1 for 160) before a reversal of fortune with England winning the next three Tests during which Tyson took 25 wickets.

No doubt others can come up with other examples.

* Stokes 2019 effort must be considered the miracle of Headingley part two.

msp83 wrote:Indian squad announced for the first 2 tests against England. Of course Kohli returns to lead the side, and both R Ashwin and Jasprit Bumrah are expected to be fit and ready for the first test. Ishant Sharma returns after injury. Washington Sundar is retained, and Axar Patel is the other spin bowling all-round option. Ravindra Jadeja, Mohammed Shami and Umesh Yadav are unavailable for selection with injury rehabilitation. The 3 may be ready for the last 2 games.
The one surprising call is to call up Hardik Pandya into the squad, seemingly as a batsman only. Kohli had earlier maintained that Pandya needs to bowl to be considered for tests, but it seems the selectors convinced him otherwise, in order to facilitate Hardik's full return as all-rounder in time for the England tour later this year. There is no place for T Natarajan in the test squad and opener Prithvi Shaw is dropped.

he All-India Senior Selection Committee met on Tuesday to pick the squad for the first two Test matches to be played at Chennai against England.

The team is as follows: Virat Kohli (Captain), Rohit Sharma, Mayank Agarwal, Shubman Gill, Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane (Vice-captain), KL Rahul, Hardik Pandya, Rishabh Pant (wicket-keeper), Wriddhiman Saha (wicket-keeper), R Ashwin, Kuldeep Yadav, Axar Patel, Washington Sundar, Ishant Sharma, Jasprit Bumrah, Md. Siraj, Shardul Thakur

The Committee also picked five net bowlers and five players as standbys.

Net Bowlers: Ankit Rajpoot, Avesh Khan, Sandeep Warrier, Krishnappa Gowtham, Saurabh Kumar

Standby players: K S Bharat, Abhimanyu Easwaran, Shahbaz Nadeem, Rahul Chahar, Priyank Panchal

I posted on the Eng winter tour thread....the above

I think selecting Pandya is a realization that it was a mistake to leave him out of the squad in Aus....and a bot of an overcompensation as there will be no room for him in India.

The thing to note following our discussion on spinners....that the standby spinners are Shahbaz Nadeem & Rahul Chahar

sirfredperry wrote:No doubt everyone is still buzzing, boisterous and bubbly after Brisbane, so it could be time to put the win - and the whole series -into context.

Brisbane has been described as one of the great Test wins and the series as one of the finest. Certainly if you chuck in the stats - 36 all out in first Test, no Kohli after that, numerous injuries - the whole tour was a triumph.

So what can it be compared with in terms of overall series excitement coupled with an extraordinary turnaround? I offer a by no means exhaustive or definitive list off the top of my head.

1. 2005 Ashes. The Edgbaston drama after a decisive Aussie win in the first Test, the tight Nottingham finish, a closely fought series throughout and result of series in doubt until deep into final day of series.

2. 2001 India v Aus - A comeback to end all comebacks with the Laxman-Dravid stand after India has been steamrollered in the 1st Test and much of the second. Then a nail-biter in the 3rd Test before India edged home.

3. 1981 Eng v Aus - England staring down the barrel of a 2-0 deficit before the miracle of Headingley part one*, another nailbiter at Birmingham, more Botham heroics at Manchester and a 3-1 win for England.

4. 1960-61 Aus v WI - The tied Test, the last-pair gallantry by Aus to save the 4th Test and a narrow two-wicket win by the hosts to clinch the 5th Test and the series.

5. 1954-55 Aus v Eng - England absolutely hammered in the 1st Test (Tyson 1 for 160) before a reversal of fortune with England winning the next three Tests during which Tyson took 25 wickets.

No doubt others can come up with other examples.

* Stokes 2019 effort must be considered the miracle of Headingley part two.

you could also count Eng's tour of India 2012-13 in this list

KP_fan wrote:

sirfredperry wrote:No doubt everyone is still buzzing, boisterous and bubbly after Brisbane, so it could be time to put the win - and the whole series -into context.

Brisbane has been described as one of the great Test wins and the series as one of the finest. Certainly if you chuck in the stats - 36 all out in first Test, no Kohli after that, numerous injuries - the whole tour was a triumph.

So what can it be compared with in terms of overall series excitement coupled with an extraordinary turnaround? I offer a by no means exhaustive or definitive list off the top of my head.

1. 2005 Ashes. The Edgbaston drama after a decisive Aussie win in the first Test, the tight Nottingham finish, a closely fought series throughout and result of series in doubt until deep into final day of series.

2. 2001 India v Aus - A comeback to end all comebacks with the Laxman-Dravid stand after India has been steamrollered in the 1st Test and much of the second. Then a nail-biter in the 3rd Test before India edged home.

3. 1981 Eng v Aus - England staring down the barrel of a 2-0 deficit before the miracle of Headingley part one*, another nailbiter at Birmingham, more Botham heroics at Manchester and a 3-1 win for England.

4. 1960-61 Aus v WI - The tied Test, the last-pair gallantry by Aus to save the 4th Test and a narrow two-wicket win by the hosts to clinch the 5th Test and the series.

5. 1954-55 Aus v Eng - England absolutely hammered in the 1st Test (Tyson 1 for 160) before a reversal of fortune with England winning the next three Tests during which Tyson took 25 wickets.

No doubt others can come up with other examples.

* Stokes 2019 effort must be considered the miracle of Headingley part two.

you could also count Eng's tour of India  2012-13 in this list

Yes, I'm sure there's a lot I've missed.

One I should have included is 1936/37 Aus v England where England won the first two Tests before Bradman (270, 212, 169) led the fightback for a 3-2 home victory.

sirfredperry wrote:No doubt everyone is still buzzing, boisterous and bubbly after Brisbane, so it could be time to put the win - and the whole series -into context.

Brisbane has been described as one of the great Test wins and the series as one of the finest. Certainly if you chuck in the stats - 36 all out in first Test, no Kohli after that, numerous injuries - the whole tour was a triumph.

So what can it be compared with in terms of overall series excitement coupled with an extraordinary turnaround? I offer a by no means exhaustive or definitive list off the top of my head.

1. 2005 Ashes. The Edgbaston drama after a decisive Aussie win in the first Test, the tight Nottingham finish, a closely fought series throughout and result of series in doubt until deep into final day of series.

2. 2001 India v Aus - A comeback to end all comebacks with the Laxman-Dravid stand after India has been steamrollered in the 1st Test and much of the second. Then a nail-biter in the 3rd Test before India edged home.

3. 1981 Eng v Aus - England staring down the barrel of a 2-0 deficit before the miracle of Headingley part one*, another nailbiter at Birmingham, more Botham heroics at Manchester and a 3-1 win for England.

4. 1960-61 Aus v WI - The tied Test, the last-pair gallantry by Aus to save the 4th Test and a narrow two-wicket win by the hosts to clinch the 5th Test and the series.

5. 1954-55 Aus v Eng - England absolutely hammered in the 1st Test (Tyson 1 for 160) before a reversal of fortune with England winning the next three Tests during which Tyson took 25 wickets.

No doubt others can come up with other examples.

* Stokes 2019 effort must be considered the miracle of Headingley part two.

I know it was only a two test series, but Sri Lanka's 2-0 victory over South Africa in South Africa in 2018 would be on the list of biggest shocks, and Kusal Perera's 153* when chasing 304, and that including a record breaking 10th wicket partnership, is still one of the best test matches, and test match innings I've seen to this day

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Indian squad announced for the first 2 tests against England. Of course Kohli returns to lead the side, and both R Ashwin and Jasprit Bumrah are expected to be fit and ready for the first test. Ishant Sharma returns after injury. Washington Sundar is retained, and Axar Patel is the other spin bowling all-round option. Ravindra Jadeja, Mohammed Shami and Umesh Yadav are unavailable for selection with injury rehabilitation. The 3 may be ready for the last 2 games.
The one surprising call is to call up Hardik Pandya into the squad, seemingly as a batsman only. Kohli had earlier maintained that Pandya needs to bowl to be considered for tests, but it seems the selectors convinced him otherwise, in order to facilitate Hardik's full return as all-rounder in time for the England tour later this year. There is no place for T Natarajan in the test squad and opener Prithvi Shaw is dropped.

he All-India Senior Selection Committee met on Tuesday to pick the squad for the first two Test matches to be played at Chennai against England.

The team is as follows: Virat Kohli (Captain), Rohit Sharma, Mayank Agarwal, Shubman Gill, Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane (Vice-captain), KL Rahul, Hardik Pandya, Rishabh Pant (wicket-keeper), Wriddhiman Saha (wicket-keeper), R Ashwin, Kuldeep Yadav, Axar Patel, Washington Sundar, Ishant Sharma, Jasprit Bumrah, Md. Siraj, Shardul Thakur

The Committee also picked five net bowlers and five players as standbys.

Net Bowlers: Ankit Rajpoot, Avesh Khan, Sandeep Warrier, Krishnappa Gowtham, Saurabh Kumar

Standby players: K S Bharat, Abhimanyu Easwaran, Shahbaz Nadeem, Rahul Chahar, Priyank Panchal

I posted on the Eng winter tour thread....the above

I think selecting Pandya is a realization that it was a mistake to leave him out of the squad in Aus....and a bot of an overcompensation as  there will be no room for him in India.

The thing to note following our discussion on  spinners....that the standby spinners are Shahbaz Nadeem & Rahul Chahar

Think I'd go with Kohli, Hardik can have no place in the test side without his bowling. And yes, you are right, he wouldn't have much room when the team is playing in India.
As for spinners, Washington, with his performance in that historic debut test of his, has made it to the test squad ahead of the likes of Nadeem, Chahar, Gopal, Jalaj and others. Axar has made the squad as well.
Between the 2 of them, who would you go for, KPF?
Axar offers the left-arm spin option that Jadeja does, and he's accurate as well. But he's a poor man's Jadeja at best. If there is some natural variation available from the track, there is no better spinner in the world than Jadeja. And his batting is proper test quality now. Patel doesn't have the nuanced variations that Jadeja has, and his batting is more number 8 than 6 or 7.
Though Washington is an offspinner like R Ashwin, their bowling styles are quite different. Washington does seem more of a defensive bowling option, perhaps he will show us a greater range on spinning tracks than he did at the Gabba. I wasn't a great fan of his batting having seen him in action only in limited overs cricket, but on the basis of the 2 test innings he has had, think he has the makings of a much better bat than Axar. So think I would go for Sundar over Axar.
Only 2 seamers in Bumrah and Ishant, and Kuldeep to be the 3rd spinner.

msp...I don't think selectors intend to play Axar

However given the scary injury situation in Aus....and given that Covid rules means its impossible to make replacements on a short notice.

selectors are being cautious and have 2 replacements/ standbys for each position.

If the main spinner i.e ashwin or Kuldeep is injured.....Nadeem will come in as he is the only real quality spinner in either squad or standbys
If Washington is injured....then the "spinner who can bat" replacement will be Axar
Point here being Axar is deemed the lowest in Peking order among 5th bowler/ 3rd spinner who can bat a bit.

On Washington's bowling.....don't be surprised if he picks a bagful of wickets.....with his speed and topspin styled bowling.....he could have a Kumble like affect....on Indian crumblers.

In Aus too his style being vastly diffrent to Ashwin's....his impact was no less..picked 4-fer that Ashwin would have been happy with

Afghanistan are well on course to make it 2 wins from 2 ODIs over Ireland, first time they will ever have won two on the bounce.

Their rise continues.

For those in the UK, Sky are broadcasting the upcoming Pakistan vs South Africa series which starts on Tuesday

Pakistan v SA, high profile test cricket back in Pakistan after the terror attack of 2009.
South Africa, back in Pakistan after 14 years, without a single player who was part of that historic 2007 tour, are struggling at the moment at 172-5. Dean Elgar made a half-century before giving it away with a poor shot, and Van Der Dussen was run-out and skipper de Kock had a bit of a slog and hold out. Markram was taken out early by Shaheen with a sharp catch at slip, and Faf fell to Yasir Shah soon after lunch.
Bavuma is battling away in the company of bowling all-rounder George Linde

SA do have Keshav Maharaj who is a fine number 9 who can bat 8 when really needed. But the seamers aren't much with the bat.
Really surprised they didn't pick Mulder, he was being talked up as the next best thing in South African cricket prior to the series and had a promising outing against Sri Lanka.
They've gone in with Ingidi and Nortje bboth to partner KG Rabada, think they should have picked only 1 of them and should have picked Mulder instead, and should have gone in with the more attacking spin option of Tabraiz Shamsi instead of Linde.
Anyways Linde is not doing any damage to his case though, by moving on to 25 in the rescue partnership with Bavuma.

Just when Bavuma seemed to stabilize things a bit for South Africa, another run-out, completely unnecessary and he's gone going for a risky second. Maharaj in, and he's not one to just hung around.

Very good to see Test cricket in Pakistan again and, due to Covid, a chance for Aleem Dar to stand in a home Test.

I guess P will be pleased to get SA out for 220. SA are as weak at the moment than at any time since coming back into the Test fold.

It doesn't help when their main batsmen get themselves out. I can see P making a good first innings score and going on to win.

Maybe.

Just as likely Pakistan get blown away for 150 in one innings or the other. They are not exactly a model of consistency

Indeed good to see them hosting a home series though : hope all goes well with the series. UAE has done well to keep Pakistani cricket afloat but it always seemed a somewhat sterile environment for cricket.

So much for my prediction. P are 15-2.

LATER: Even worse. 33-4

sirfredperry wrote:So much for my prediction. P are 15-2.

Ha. I wasn't trying to curse them , honest

Long way to go yet... but they won't want to lose any more wickets this evening...