England - what next?

First topic message reminder :

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Looking back on England teams with really good back row players who were also very good jumpers with some real height, there really aren't many I can recall.  From back in their heyday, players who were actual wing forwards, I can only think of Tom Croft (6'6", 17.5 st) and Tom Wood (6'5", 17.7 st).  And these guys were really good all over the pitch, not just lineout gurus.  I'm sure there were others, but these guys stick out for me.  

Maybe the hybrid approach is an attempt to replicate those players impact on the game, But the only real effective hybrid now is Lawes, who does a lot of the critical dog work the team needs.  Unfortunately, he in injured. But I still prefer him in the second row.  

The other lock I think England miss is Launchbury,  Not a candidate for the hybrid role when he recovers, but he also does a lot of dog work which makes the players around him better.  

In the next match, I would start Itoje and Ribbans in the second row.  Jonny Hill has been highly mediocre for England, though a good club player, plus he has that god-awful haircut which is an embarrassment to Queen and country.

Tim Rodber

Actually thinking about it Easter used to take a lot of lineout ball, but it is not something I'd say he was a specialist at

Jeez.  Tim Rodber.  As a Saints guy, how on earth could I not remember Timmy Rodber?  Tall, played lock, plus 6 or 8.  And played each position like to the manor born.  One of the best Saints I ever saw.  

Good catch with Easter, too.  I don't think he was as tall, but used to take a fair amount of lineout ball for Quins.  I remember he was their clutch, go to lineout receiver.  

Just remembered Martin Corry for Leicester.  Mostly second row, if my addled mind is still functioning.  But also ran out or subbed in at 6 or 8.  

There must have been more, but this is a list of some very good players.

One of my favorite players ever. And also one of my most proud moments...told it many a time on here but always ready to tell it again...

Falcons 7's competition - all the prem teams and we were the local guest invitation side. We got Northampton, Falcons and Tigers.
I absolutely leveled big Tim during the game in the best tackle you could possibly imagine. He was absolutely spewing hell fire furious...so i spent the rest of the game on the wing as far away as possible from him

That English back row of Rodber, Clarke and Richards was very effective. Amazing to think that Deano was the small one!

I seem to remember Robshaw taking a decent number of lineout balls. He and Curry are similarly sized so Tom should be able to do fairly well.

I reckon a lot of the lock at 6 argument is based on hot air and Jones wanting to play 3 locks instead of an actual NEED to.

That is a great story about Rodber and shows real smarts on your part!  You are a.braver man than I.  Back on the day, I played in a few matches  with Tim in the same side.  I thought he was the best player I ever played with and was glad I didn’t have to contest a ruck with him.

Reminds me of a funny story a good friend told me. He’s a Kiwi and was over here for a number years before going back home about 10 years ago.  His first old boys game he lines up in the centers and opposite him is former AB and brick wall Frank Bunce.  He said it took a week to feel better.

Jeez imagine playing against Bunce! now he was a beast aswell.

Its like the Jerry Collins story after the world cup...when he turned out for a local clubs 2nd team down in Devon! Imagine your the 6, walking out and he's your opposite...

He then used their socks when he played for the Baa Baas...

https://www.ruck.co.uk/the-inside-story-of-when-jerry-collins-played-for-barnstaple-rfc/

GeordieFalcon wrote:I dont get why they insist on a lock playing 6 when we have Ted Hill who is a lock sized 6...who dominates the collisions and contact exactly as they want!!???

He's being saved for after the Lions.

Mr Bounce wrote:That English back row of Rodber, Clarke and Richards was very effective. Amazing to think that Deano was the small one!

I seem to remember Robshaw taking a decent number of lineout balls. He and Curry are similarly sized so Tom should be able to do fairly well.

I reckon a lot of the lock at 6 argument is based on hot air and Jones wanting to play 3 locks instead of an actual NEED to.

Robshaw took loads of lineout balls for Quins - to the extent that if they really needed to win the lineout they would throw to him at the front, but for some reason was rarely used that way for England.

Corry was a 6 / 8 for most of his career, but moved to lock towards the end. Nick Easter did something similar at club level after his International career was over.

Another advantage of picking Dombrandt over Vunipola or Simmonds.

Poorfour wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:That English back row of Rodber, Clarke and Richards was very effective. Amazing to think that Deano was the small one!

I seem to remember Robshaw taking a decent number of lineout balls. He and Curry are similarly sized so Tom should be able to do fairly well.

I reckon a lot of the lock at 6 argument is based on hot air and Jones wanting to play 3 locks instead of an actual NEED to.

Robshaw took loads of lineout balls for Quins - to the extent that if they really needed to win the lineout they would throw to him at the front, but for some reason was rarely used that way for England.

Corry was a 6 / 8 for most of his career, but moved to lock towards the end. Nick Easter did something similar at club level after his International career was over.

A slightly cheap point coming but I can remember one noticeable occasion when England throw an important lineout to Robshaw at the front...

I think there are have been a lot of flankers who jump a lot at club who don't get used in international rugby. Quite simply I think it's because line-out defence is just so much better in international rugby.

From memory Corry only really played lock at the start of his career. Cozza was actually covering lock in the RWC final with Shaw and Grewcock both unavailable. A marvelous forward who could genuinely cover 8,6 and lock.

Saw a stat earlier on planet rugby that Daly had ended 11 attacks by himself this tournament. Looks a man lost.

Robshaw had a habit of calling the highest pressure throws to himself. It's not that that was a bad option as such but it meant that if the opposition had any sense they knew who to mark for those throws, and he just wasn't the guy who'd take that ball no matter what.

Robshaw had a great pair of hands. Mind, this is my professional judgement and have no personal experience.

My memories of Corey was he was always bloodier than Borthwick. And that says something. He was a tough sob.

Robshaw had a great pair of hands.  Mind, this is my professional judgement and have no personal experience.

My memories of Corey was he was always bloodier than Borthwick.  And that says something.  He was a tough sob.

Corey wouldn’t last 2 minutes nowadays. He always led with a high forearm when carrying normally towards the neck area of any potential tackler.

Martyn Quarry should make a comeback just to remind people what his name actually was.

That was a transcription error by my phone that I didn’t check. My humble apologies to Marvin Corey......

Gooseberry wrote:Martyn Quarry should make a comeback just to remind people what his name actually was.

As well as to remind people just how good he was. If Wilson is getting capped then Marty Corrie would be in contention. Great third jumper, massive work rate and could carry.

Probably because he was a Leicester Man and I was a Wasps fan, I always blamed Martine Covid when he was the England captain whenever England lost. He really was a hard old school player though.

Martian Quarry always seemed to be underated.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jeez imagine playing against Bunce! now he was a beast aswell.

Its like the Jerry Collins story after the world cup...when he turned out for a local clubs 2nd team down in Devon! Imagine your the 6, walking out and he's your opposite...

He then used their socks when he played for the Baa Baas...

https://www.ruck.co.uk/the-inside-story-of-when-jerry-collins-played-for-barnstaple-rfc/

My old club had Alistair McHarg turn out for them on quite a few occasions. Playing for London Scottish and living in the West Country, he would often find that the game was off when he was half way down the motorway. He would simply stop at a service station and give the club a ring asking if they could fit him in anywhere. He turned out for the third team on quite a few occasions.

For the youngsters here, Alistair was the other half of teh Scottish and British lions pairing with Gordon Brown (not the politician), possibly the best No.8  Scotland and the Lions never had. His skill set was that of a centre and he had some pace, probably due to him being 6'4" and under 16 stone. Perfect skill set for a No. 8 of the day.

I can remember playing with him when I was in my late teens, I was the same height as him, but a bit heavier mainly due to having a Deano style build. Having run through the opposition a few times and then just passed the ball to supporting players to actually score, the opposition Captain asked me, "Can't he get into your first team?" just not realising who he was.

Another side that frequently played a lot of "star" players, often Kiwis was the Black Diamonds based in London. They were like a Kiwi version of the Barbarians and would put together a side to match the opposition. Our season being their summer, there was often a few AB players over here doing the tour of Europe/homeland bit that was popular in the 60/7Os. Has anyone ever played against them?

One of several reasons I didn't play beyond schoolboy and colts level was that I was a 2nd row. That is fine when you are 13-14 and pushing 6' but not great when you are still 6' at 18 but there isn't anybody else who knows how to play that position.

At one point our colts team's other 2nd row was a Scottish hammer thrower who was about 6'9'' and 20 stone+. Scrumming alongside him was hillarious. I couldn't actually reach far enough around his chest to bind on.

I started playing at the age of 12, purely because the school rugby coach needed someone to make up the numbers for the game at the weekend. I was slightly short for my age, and for that reason he put me in at scrum half. Not knowing feck all about the game, I was rarely at rucks / mauls when I was meant to be, but was very enthusiastic about tackling

At half time he told me what I should be doing, so at the first scrum of the second half I was in the right position, and promptly levelled the other sides big number 8 when he tried to pick and go. Got moved to flanker and stayed there happily for the rest of my very limited playing career!

lostinwales wrote:One of several reasons I didn't play beyond schoolboy and colts level was that I was a 2nd row. That is fine when you are 13-14 and pushing 6' but not great when you are still 6' at 18 but there isn't anybody else who knows how to play that position.

At one point our colts team's other 2nd row was a Scottish hammer thrower who was about 6'9'' and 20 stone+. Scrumming alongside him was hillarious. I couldn't actually reach far enough around his chest to bind on.

I know that feeling, as a school boy at 16 I was 6'4" and 14 stone; a big lad for 16. I played alongside Dick Slaney who at 15 was 6'6" and 18 stone. He went on to represent GB at discus, but also to become "The Britain's Strongest Man", married Mary Decker, her 6-7 stone against his 20+ stone by then.

Underhill starts for Bath tomorrow.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Underhill starts for Bath tomorrow.

I'd presumed he was out for the tournament. It would be brilliant for England if Underhill can return for the final two fixtures.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Underhill starts for Bath tomorrow.

I'd presumed he was out for the tournament. It would be brilliant for England if Underhill can return for the final two fixtures.

No idea about his medical situation, but I think it might be better to stay with his club and continue rehab, recovery, or what not under the same people. Besides, if he plays for England, he might paper over (perhaps that's not exactly the right term) the deficiencies which need to be highlighted in order to improve in the long run. We might as well ride it out with the current squad, barring more injuries, and get other players more game time.

Potentially a year out for Willis.

"I've torn my MCL off the bone at the bottom, torn a bit off the top as well, so I am going to need that fully repaired," Willis said on Instagram.

"Torn both meniscus, the medial meniscus from the root one side. Pretty gutted."

Brutal.

Horrible news for Willis.

Awful news.

king_carlos wrote:Potentially a year out for Willis.

"I've torn my MCL off the bone at the bottom, torn a bit off the top as well, so I am going to need that fully repaired," Willis said on Instagram.

"Torn both meniscus, the medial meniscus from the root one side. Pretty gutted."

Brutal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56304427

Makes we squirm. Here's just hoping he makes a full recovery in time

Just a horrible sounding injury

This was always going to be bad. If Willis reports it right, the meniscal root repair would concern me more than the MCL tear, though the combination can be problematic. In general the MCL, on the outside of the joint, is easy to access and the repairs (usually) easy to effect, though recovery can still be 6-12 depending. The preferred approaches to meniscal root repair, as opposed to the more common meniscal tear, require drilling small holes about 5mm apart at the root attachment site and suturing the root back into place. For thoise who are interested, this is usually referred to as a two-tunnel transtibial pull-out repair. Long term prognosis is generally good, though this is a newer approach. The challenges for Willis would be the same for many professional athletes. He is well muscled, though not excessively and his legs are already strong which significantly improves recoveries. But the extra stresses on the joints of a Rugby player add to recovery times. It will be interesting to see if his medical team prefer to perform the ligament and meniscal root procedures is two parts, as I would likely choose to do in these multi-tissue injuries, or at one go. Hoping for the best.

Sam Simmonds scored another try today , Dallaglio uttered " a no8 who does breaks with speed " I'd pick him.

Dont think you can from the current rules on selection. Underhill I wouldnt be surprised to see started next weekend though.

There are caveats to allow replacements where needed but as far as possible Jones is meant to stick to that 28-man squad he named that are in a bubble. That was the agreement between Premiership Rugby, the RFU and RPA.

Sinckler returned to the 28-man bubble once available. Tom West was added to it then returned to Wasps, Harry Williams also returned to Exeter and now Underhill to Bath. So there has been some player movement either way but so far restricted to injury replacements.

I understand Docs view of letting Underhill rehab at Bath but if he's fit (and he certainly looked fit today) then I'd pick him. He's that good and such a vital cog for England. Even if he's on the bench with Earl getting a couple of starts.

Yup. I dont think Simmonds can realistically be called up without a further injury. Presumably it would be Wilson or martin released should he want underhill and yes I agree he looked up to speed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Dont think you can from the current rules on selection. Underhill I wouldnt be surprised to see started next weekend though.

The shadow squad remain with their clubs but undertake the same testing procedures as the 6N squad. If Underhill has been taking the Covid tests as regularly as the rest of the squad then he should be able to be called up. I think two weeks of the testing regime would be sufficient for a call up from outside the shadow squad.

Hes basically regaining fitness so same situation as sinckler becoming available?

I watched a replay of Bath-Exe last evening, not having watched it live.  I know I am being conservative when it comes to rehab and regaining match conditioning (comes with the territory, I suppose).  I thought Underhill was good for the first 30 minutes or so then tailed off.  He did make a lot of tackles early on.  I don't remember when he came off, but must have been pretty early in the 2nd half.  If Eddie Jones really feels the pressure he will likely recall Underhill and perhaps use him as an impact sub.  For me, the tournament is already lost, so what is there to gain from the player's perspective by playing him in the England squad now.  

As you say there doesn't seem much sense picking Underhill when not fully match fit, but then Eddie made the choice to pick not just 1 or 2 Sarries players but all of them.

Dallaglio stronger on his praise of Sam SImmonds - head and shoulders the best no 8 in England and the best no 8 in Europe.  It can't be doing Billy much good knowing he is not in the team on merit, but is there purely because the coach likes him.

Monye saying Marcus Smith is clearly the best no 10 available to England.  Again Eddie isn't picking on any kind of form.

This can't be conducive to a happy squad or encouraging to other players to aspire to compete for an England place.

I don't really get the clamor for Simmonds. He's been tried and he struggled to adapt, either through his lack of physicality or not suiting the game plan that we play (I personally think it's a bit of both).

Look at how Eddie uses BV, he's there to make ground through traffic. Make the hard yards, get us over the gain line. Simmonds, for all his attributes, is just not that type of player.

Is he was in then england would play slightly differently, he's already proved he can play at this level after all. Jones made the decision to go with these players and this style, it doesnt mean if and when we start others that style will persist.

Its moot for this tournament though as there are restrictions on call ups.

Just seen the latest Jones interview in which he backs Farrells captaincy and says he will improve. Absolutely no suggestion he's thinking of making a change in the short or medium term.

Enjoy.

Gooseberry wrote:Just seen the latest Jones interview in which he backs Farrells captaincy and says he will improve. Absolutely no suggestion he's thinking of making a change in the short or medium term.

Enjoy.

Saw the headline and haven't read it yet. Farrell has been captain for what? 3 years? I'd hope he's always learning and improving, but would have thought he'd have a pretty good handle on being captain by now.

BBC: "England skipper Owen Farrell is "still learning to be a good captain" but will improve with every experience, says head coach Eddie Jones.

Farrell's leadership has been under scrutiny after the Six Nations defeat by Wales last month, England's second of this year's Championship.

And Jones says captaincy is a "hard art" which Farrell is still developing.

"We're happy with the way he is going but like any part of our organisation he can improve," he said.

Jones added to BBC Sport: "He can improve in the way he speaks to the referee, he can improve in the way he leads the team. But we are all open to that sort of scrutiny."

Farrell took over the England captaincy from Dylan Hartley halfway through 2018 and has led the side ever since, including to a World Cup final in 2019 and a Six Nations title last year.

But his relationship with officials and the suitability of having a back leading the side has been the subject of much debate, with former England captain Lawrence Dallaglio among those to call for a forward to take on the role.

"And it is a hard art and you have got to keep developing. Every experience he has will make him a better captain.

"I've worked with a number of good captains and they have all had their own way of doing it. John Smit at the Springboks was a real people's person, [former Australia captain] George Gregan on the other hand was very much more like Owen, and he suffered the same criticism when we had a bad performance that he didn't speak well enough to the referee."

However Jones feels the scrutiny on Farrell's captaincy has been heightened because of current circumstances, with no fans at international matches for the last six months.

"It is an easy target for the pundits to go at the captain, particularly now where there is a lack of atmosphere at a ground and the conversations are so much under the microscope," Jones explained.

'There is never an equal flow of talent'
Jones says the England set-up is "feeling a bit of pain" given their poor tournament so far, but says constant contact from his players during the fallow week shows they are in the right state of mind to arrest the side's form, with unbeaten France the visitors to Twickenham on Saturday.

"We are fighting hard and the players' honest reflections on making mistakes is an indication that they are in the right mindset to get this team back to where you want to be," he explained.

But when asked why he has struggled to build depth in certain positions, such as number eight, scrum-half, fly-half and full-back, Jones suggested he is somewhat hamstrung by the make-up of the talent pool in England, with better players coming through in some positions compared to others.

"I think Arsene Wenger had that quote, when someone asked him if he would be the England national coach, and he said no because he didn't control the talent coming through," Jones said.

"And as the national coach I don't control the talent coming through. I've just got to try and pick the best talent and luckily enough I get a lot of advice on that.

"There's never an equal flow of talent coming through. You get periods where you get great nines coming through, great tens coming through, great back-rowers, and then for some reason there is a dearth, and no-one seems to know why.

"We've just got to make do with what we have, try and find the best ones and nurture them, and give them the right sort of development so when they do play for England they go and play 50 caps.""


Personally I'd want Farrell in the team but I really think the 9-13 axis has been struggling in the current form be that with Ford at 10 or Farrell. For me the most balanced we've seen recently was the Youngs, Farrell, Lawrence Slade one but our pack was well below par and they all suffered for it. I was a big fan of Slade and wanted him in the team but he hasn't brought what I thought he would.

Jones is a smart guy I know hes cheer led the stats about kicking but there are now a growing amount of form players who play a different way and look to attack as a first instinct. Will be a matter of time before that is translated to England imo.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is he was in then england would play slightly differently, he's already proved he can play at this level after all. Jones made the decision to go with these players and this style, it doesnt mean if and when we start others that style will persist.

Its moot for this tournament though as there are restrictions on call ups.

Eddie will not pick Simmonds, he's had a look at him and he's been discarded. For whatever reason (see above), he doesn't just fancy him.

I think he's not in the squad for the reason you point out pooly, hes not the guy to truck it up in traffic. When Vunipola plays well there's no one in the world as good as him in that aspect. If Jones feels that its time for a different sort of game however for instance that transition attack we've heard a bit from Mitchell about then suddenly perhaps Vunipola isnt the guy for that but more a Simmonds, Dombrandt guy; along with a few changes in the backs.

I'm not so sure mate. Eddie is a stubborn so and so and rarely goes backwards. I honestly think he'd pick and develop a youngster, rather than admit he may have been wrong about Simmonds, style change or not. Look at the selection of Curry last year.

I think he's not in the squad for the reason you point out pooly, hes not the guy to truck it up in traffic. When Vunipola plays well there's no one in the world as good as him in that aspect. If Jones feels that its time for a different sort of game however for instance that transition attack we've heard a bit from Mitchell about then suddenly perhaps Vunipola isnt the guy for that but more a Simmonds, Dombrandt guy; along with a few changes in the backs.

Eg. Curry Underhill Vunipola

Youngs Ford
May Farrell Slade Watson
Daly

Could become

Martin Curry Simmonds

Randall Smith
May Farrell Odogwu Watson
Steward

Mid-cycle for the World Cup? I don't think we'll see this. Eddie puts a lot caps/experience and trusting his players etc etc.....it just won't happen.

I'd put money on Simmonds not playing for England again under EJ.

As much as you can go with anything in interviews he expects 70% of the squad to make the next world cup. From those positions thats only a 40% change ignoring the front five who don't demand any changes yet. Personally I would be wanting dombrandt in before Simmonds as I think his link play and ability to jump in the lineout are more pressing issues.