England - what next?

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Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

Playing Simmonds probably means constructing a back row with a heavy duty 6 to do the trucking up job. We have got very used to playing with a heavyweight 8, just like we have got used to running with an attacking fullback, and replacements who play differently will always show up negatively in comparison.

In an alternate universe there is a different and highly effective England 15 built around Simmonds at 8. We have no idea if it is better than what we have.

Because there are alternatives the only way that Jones can keep the critics quiet is by winning games, and he isn't at the moment (for whatever reason - Mr Gaüzère)

We've got used to an attacking full back....hope you don't mean Daly!

I would certainly look at Dombrandt as an alternative. Simmonds, I just don't get really....he's just not my type of 8.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We've got used to an attacking full back....hope you don't mean Daly!

Well he is. Might not be playing particularly well at the moment but that is a different question.

You like your big blokes Pooly, no shame in it.

True lost, tongue in cheek. Can't get over the stat that he's ended 11 attacking plays tis 6 nations alone. Terrible run of form ball in hand and no real improvement in defence, for all i've seen him catch 3 balls in the air he turns off to Varney in the next breath.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would certainly look at Dombrandt as an alternative. Simmonds, I just don't get really....he's just not my type of 8.

Simmonds is definitely very effective at that close quarters drive over the line, where his smaller size enables him to get lower than the tackler and drive through, but I can't quite tell how much his overall effectiveness at club level is a product of being part of an Exeter pack that has big ball carriers in 5 or 6 positions.

Well the prefered option appears to be a heavy duty 8 (Billy) and a lineout option at 6 (Lawes)
Though Curry Underhill is preferred even over that.

Just think...if we have Dombrandt at 8 and Ted HIll at 6...you could have two lineout options..and more carrying ability...

I may as well start on the Ted Hill bandwagon now Willis is out for a year.

I felt that before the tournament started we would be targeting France to make a statement against. Kinda felt like that with the very slow start vs Scotland. Probably becomes one of the more important games for Jones as I'm sure he'll want some wriggle room to introduce new guys and that becomes more difficult if we fail to beat both France and Ireland. Hard to know how much pressure is on this weekend though, it should be given the slip ups so far but then there are very few pundits predicting a win at home to France.

Just listened to the eggchasers podcast and they discussed Simmonds. They suggested, as he plays with a big carrying 6 and 7, it basically allows him a "free role" somewhat so he can float around.

If England brought him in, he'd be more suited to 7 and as we don't have the big flankers to offer this. That basically means Billy at 8, Simmonds at 7. You then then have 2 backrow options that don't really give the work rate or even line-out options of our current flankers and the whole backrow just becomes unbalanced.

This kind of reiterates my point really, that it's not just that simple saying "how is Simmonds not selected?" He just doesn't really fit in.

They also suggested that bar his hattrick against Italy, he looked underwhelming and underpowered.

He is certainly a talent but Exeter can afford the luxury as they have a big strong, workman like pack.

They also compared him to Earl (which is a fair comparison imo) but Earl offers more in terms of work rare and jackling.

Saturdays club match between Exeter and Harlequins will interesting with "pretenders " playing each other Dombrandt and Smith v the Simmonds brothers.

I'd like to see Dombrandt given a shot sooner rather than later. He's not the finished article by any stretch but I think he'd benefit from being in the England camp, and he offers a level of vision and creativity that not many of our other 8s do. As Geordie says, he also offers a lineout option and the variety in his lines means he doesn't give away much to Billy in terms of making yards.

But he doesn't seem to meet Eddie's expectations in some way - probably a combination of fitness and style of play. Dombrandt, Care and Smith can control a game when they have to, but they are at their best creating unstructured play that they can exploit with quick wits and deft interchanges. Dombrandt has lost his WQP status now, but ironically they'd have more of a chance of being picked in the Welsh or French setups right now.

Until Eddie changes his mind and decides that total rugby is the way to unlock defences.

Poorfour wrote:I'd like to see Dombrandt given a shot sooner rather than later. He's not the finished article by any stretch but I think he'd benefit from being in the England camp, and he offers a level of vision and creativity that not many of our other 8s do. As Geordie says, he also offers a lineout option and the variety in his lines means he doesn't give away much to Billy in terms of making yards.

But he doesn't seem to meet Eddie's expectations in some way - probably a combination of fitness and style of play. Dombrandt, Care and Smith can control a game when they have to, but they are at their best creating unstructured play that they can exploit with quick wits and deft interchanges. Dombrandt has lost his WQP status now, but ironically they'd have more of a chance of being picked in the Welsh or French setups right now.

Until Eddie changes his mind and decides that total rugby is the way to unlock defences.

Might be waiting a while Poorfour...

Maybe its just me but I didn't see any issues with Simmond's work rate (over 20 tackles in that game vs Italy). He also has great acceleration which can catch defenders out. He did seem underpowered but that is not surprising if you are comparing him with Billy.

Compare him to most 8's and he's underpowered. It wasn't actually in comparison, it was a general underpowered.

And we're all about the dominant tackle....not really in Simmonds locker.

If I was given a choice who I would want to start at 8, Sam would be the player for me. Possibly the best 8 form wise in world rugby.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is he was in then england would play slightly differently, he's already proved he can play at this level after all. Jones made the decision to go with these players and this style, it doesnt mean if and when we start others that style will persist.

Its moot for this tournament though as there are restrictions on call ups.

Eddie will not pick Simmonds, he's had a look at him and he's been discarded. For whatever reason (see above), he doesn't just fancy him.

He's not really a number 8 that's why. Exeter play a different back row to just about any other team. Simmonds is more of an old style openside flanker than anything else.

Yeah i think its important to remember how Exeter have their pack.

All big guys and you have Ewers etc in the back row doing the hard yacker. Simmonds is like a floater...just roaming where he wants.

Still wish he'd been a 12...

There seems to be a few 8's coming through so we'll see how they come through

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Just listened to the eggchasers podcast and they discussed Simmonds. They suggested, as he plays with a big carrying 6 and 7, it basically allows him a "free role" somewhat so he can float around.

If England brought him in, he'd be more suited to 7 and as we don't have the big flankers to offer this. That basically means Billy at 8, Simmonds at 7. You then then have 2 backrow options that don't really give the work rate or even line-out options of our current flankers and the whole backrow just becomes unbalanced.

This kind of reiterates my point really, that it's not just that simple saying "how is Simmonds not selected?" He just doesn't really fit in.

They also suggested that bar his hattrick against Italy, he looked underwhelming and underpowered.

He is certainly a talent but Exeter can afford the luxury as they have a big strong, workman like pack.

They also compared him to Earl (which is a fair comparison imo) but Earl offers more in terms of work rare and jackling.

Excatly. There's a bit too much 'judging by shirt number' with Simmonds. He's a good player but he's playing in the best team in Europe (or one of) in a way that suits their unique system.

Dombrandt is the future at 8 IMO. Eddie will pick him when he's ready.

If we work on the proviso that Curry and Underhill are the first choice at 6 & 7 I don't see how you can fit Simmonds in at 8 who would be afforded less space to work at international level which is where Billy's brute power comes into play. Who are England then going to use to truck it up?

If you were to use Simmonds at 8 you need either Hill or Dombrandt at 6 but you then lose out on the work rate and overall quality of Underhill so you might as well just chuck either of them at 8 instead.

Soul Requiem wrote:If we work on the proviso that Curry and Underhill are the first choice at 6 & 7 I don't see how you can fit Simmonds in at 8 who would be afforded less space to work at international level which is where Billy's brute power comes into play. Who are England then going to use to truck it up?

If you were to use Simmonds at 8 you need either Hill or Dombrandt at 6 but you then lose out on the work rate and overall quality of Underhill so you might as well just chuck either of them at 8 instead.

That is about the size of it. If we could put Underhill and Ewers in a telepod and merge them, we could create space in the back row for Simmonds...

Picking simmonds at 8 would mean a change in philosophy. However let's think about this for a moment. If a team can play fast and illusive in attack yet attack the breakdown in equal ferocity all across the field in defense it would be an extra weapon. You would need launch attacks off a ball carriing centre like nonu otherwise there would be little penetration when the going gets tight. If we take the the all conquering double winning all blacks as an example, their game was hard to compete with because they moved the ball beautifully across the park to players running in space. Keiran Reid probably one of the best 8s in the game wasn't a tight track bully but could get around the park and attack backs. Nonu would carry hard and straight giving the space in which they flooded fast back row forwards.

We could and should explore players that can stress organised defences by movement and pace. Sides are too good at defence these days to allow players like Billy to cruise through them. Get the ball moving have 3 fast back row popping up all over the place to really ask questions of defenders. Sam simmonds, curry, underhill deployed properly could rip sides open and be a nuisance at the breakdown. Throw in Earl, Willis, dombrant (who pops up in modfield and all over the shop) and you could have teams blowing out of their ring trying to compete.

The biggest problem for England though is the midfield and that is the no one priority at the moment.

I read that we cannot bring Underhill back into the squad now he has recovered from injury due to the restricted squad size? But then I saw that Stockdale has been brought back into the Ireland squad post his return to fitness. Is this just the agreement between the RFU and Premiership clubs as seems pretty daft to me? As we are missing a few players already and have the mighty Les blues up next it would be useful to have him back. Of course this takes nothing away from Earls, but having the first choice back row would be handy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You like your big blokes Pooly, no shame in it.

I agree no shame. I like women with big knockers and questionable morals, preferably under 80 years old. I feel no shame.

Yoda wrote:Picking simmonds at 8 would mean a change in philosophy. However let's think about this for a moment. If a team can play fast and illusive in attack yet attack the breakdown in equal ferocity all across the field in defense it would be an extra weapon.

You mean change from an attack plan which is based upon three or maybe four forward charges into the opposition forwards then kicking possession away? Are you crazy? This might mean England might score points, maybe a lot of them. And our back three might not take naps from sheer boredom during a match. You are a radical.

whatahitson wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is he was in then england would play slightly differently, he's already proved he can play at this level after all. Jones made the decision to go with these players and this style, it doesnt mean if and when we start others that style will persist.

Its moot for this tournament though as there are restrictions on call ups.

Eddie will not pick Simmonds, he's had a look at him and he's been discarded. For whatever reason (see above), he doesn't just fancy him.

He's not really a number 8 that's why. Exeter play a different back row to just about any other team. Simmonds is more of an old style openside flanker than anything else.

In attack with his link play, pace and eye for a gap. In defence not so much. He can compete for the ball but you couldn't compare him to Back or Hill could you. He could play the old 6.5 role that Robshaw and Haskell did but with much more speed. A Simmonds and Curry flank combination would work but Eddie's style of aggressive defence does suit Earl and Underhill more.

Of course if Eddie opts for Ted Hill or George Martin at 6 then they'd be space at 8 for Simmonds. Would give the lineout three good jumpers as well.

Is anyone else completely underwhelmed at the thought of watching England v France?

Or people actually excited by it?

Love the 6 nations so very much looking forward to it.

It is exactly the kind of game that England will win. It will be a tight game where France will do some wonderful things that won't be enough.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is anyone else completely underwhelmed at the thought of watching England v France?

Or people actually excited by it?

England will get beaten comfortably, little doubt of that despite the bookmakers putting England as the narrow favourites, but it'll be exciting to watch the French in full flow as they run in the tries.

I'd say theres quite a lot of doubt of France winning comfortably. Looked the match that England would be targeting before the tournament and i see no reason why the pack shouldnt get on top. Keep the ball away from Daly and it should be fine, if he even starts.

Duty281 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is anyone else completely underwhelmed at the thought of watching England v France?

Or people actually excited by it?

England will get beaten comfortably, little doubt of that despite the bookmakers putting England as the narrow favourites, but it'll be exciting to watch the French in full flow as they run in the tries.

France didn't do that against Ireland and despite all the flaws in this England team they're still very good defensively.

Unless Jones picks some new players for France and Ireland then yes I'm starting to feel underwhelmed.
Surely Odogwu and Malins MUST get a game?
He's not going to add anyone to squad we can assume, mores the pity. Marcus Smith, Dombrandt, S Simmonds, Spencer(as Randall not fit) all deserving yet over looked. Possibly Underhill gets back in squad now fit and he did play for Bath.

I despair it'll be Youngs and Billy V and Daley yet again.

Oh yeah, hi by the way. Got bored of BBC HYS being overrun by idiots and not moderated properly so find myself here.

Hello and welcome.

mountain man wrote:Unless Jones picks some new players for France and Ireland then yes I'm starting to feel underwhelmed.
Surely Odogwu and Malins MUST get a game?
He's not going to add anyone to squad we can assume, mores the pity. Marcus Smith, Dombrandt, S Simmonds, Spencer(as Randall not fit) all deserving yet over looked. Possibly Underhill gets back in squad now fit and he did play for Bath.

I despair it'll be Youngs and Billy V and Daley yet again.

Oh yeah, hi by the way. Got bored of BBC HYS being overrun by idiots and not moderated properly so find myself here.

Welcome. I can't promise that there are no idiots here but BBC HYS is particularly awful in that respect.

I fully expect Youngs, Billy and Daly to play, although there is an outside chance that Malins will start. The other names you have listed won't get a look in because there are limits to what they can do with the squad - pandemic and all.

lostinwales wrote:

mountain man wrote:Unless Jones picks some new players for France and Ireland then yes I'm starting to feel underwhelmed.
Surely Odogwu and Malins MUST get a game?
He's not going to add anyone to squad we can assume, mores the pity. Marcus Smith, Dombrandt, S Simmonds, Spencer(as Randall not fit) all deserving yet over looked. Possibly Underhill gets back in squad now fit and he did play for Bath.

I despair it'll be Youngs and Billy V and Daley yet again.

Oh yeah, hi by the way. Got bored of BBC HYS being overrun by idiots and not moderated properly so find myself here.

Welcome. I can't promise that there are no idiots here but BBC HYS is particularly awful in that respect.

I fully expect Youngs, Billy and Daly to play, although there is an outside chance that Malins will start. The other names you have listed won't get a look in because there are limits to what they can do with the squad - pandemic and all.

Yes I realise with squad restrictions due to covid it's unlikely anyone be added but Odogwu and Malins are in 28 man squad. Malins has barely had any time on as sub and Odogwu none. I've always been a defender of Jones but faith being tested this 6N and nothing I've seen gives any clue anything will change. Likewise Farrell, good player, great at his best but recently mediocre. There's no way Jones will drop him as he's captain but really should do! Best we can hope then is Ford 10 and Farrell 12. It worked so well against Wales....

Welcome mountain man. For the most part it's a cracking wee community on 606v2. Hopefully you enjoy yourself!

I'd still prefer Lawrence get a chance over Odogwu. I don't see Odogwu as a winger at international level (limited kicking game and high ball work worse than Daly) but he definitely has talent as a game breaking 13. Lawrence was strong against Ireland in the ANC before being dumped after the backline got outplayed tactically by Scotland (especially by a marvelous performance from Hogg). I'd hope both Odogwu and Lawrence get caps over the summer. If Joseph were in the squad I'd have him starting personally.

I hope Underhill is recalled though I'd probably have him on the bench with Earl starting personally.

I thought Billy had a good game against Wales after a very poor first two rounds. I think the stats showed Billy making the most metres after contact in the last round which given he's usually got two tacklers hitting him shows he is getting back to what he does well. Even if he is a blunt instrument it's been a very effective one in successful sides. His defensive game in the ANC was excellent and his running game is slowly getting back to where it once was.

Daly's drop off from his best is pretty disastrous at this stage so I really hope Malins gets a chance.

king_carlos wrote:Welcome mountain man. For the most part it's a cracking wee community on 606v2. Hopefully you enjoy yourself!

I'd still prefer Lawrence get a chance over Odogwu. I don't see Odogwu as a winger at international level (limited kicking game and high ball work worse than Daly) but he definitely has talent as a game breaking 13. Lawrence was strong against Ireland in the ANC before being dumped after the backline got outplayed tactically by Scotland (especially by a marvelous performance from Hogg). I'd hope both Odogwu and Lawrence get caps over the summer. If Joseph were in the squad I'd have him starting personally.

I hope Underhill is recalled though I'd probably have him on the bench with Earl starting personally.

I thought Billy had a good game against Wales after a very poor first two rounds. I think the stats showed Billy making the most metres after contact in the last round which given he's usually got two tacklers hitting him shows he is getting back to what he does well. Even if he is a blunt instrument it's been a very effective one in successful sides. His defensive game in the ANC was excellent and his running game is slowly getting back to where it once was.

Daly's drop off from his best is pretty disastrous at this stage so I really hope Malins gets a chance.

I agree Billy played well against Wales and actually when they weren't conceding penalties England played some excellent rugby. Undeniably shafted by ref and TMO but that's another story!
Odogwu as you say should be 13 for England, whether he'll get a chance though. Italy would have been perfect game and possibly may have but loss to Scots scuppered it I reckon.
Daley never has been and in my opinion never will be a 15. Have him on bench at best as wing/centre cover.

I take you are a fellow Prachett fan?

i thought Underhill was not allowed to be recalled due to not being in the bubble.

If the USA / Canada Summer tour goes ahead....
12 Lawrence
13 Odogwu

formerly known as Sam wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is he was in then england would play slightly differently, he's already proved he can play at this level after all. Jones made the decision to go with these players and this style, it doesnt mean if and when we start others that style will persist.

Its moot for this tournament though as there are restrictions on call ups.

Eddie will not pick Simmonds, he's had a look at him and he's been discarded. For whatever reason (see above), he doesn't just fancy him.

He's not really a number 8 that's why. Exeter play a different back row to just about any other team. Simmonds is more of an old style openside flanker than anything else.

In attack with his link play, pace and eye for a gap. In defence not so much. He can compete for the ball but you couldn't compare him to Back or Hill could you. He could play the old 6.5 role that Robshaw and Haskell did but with much more speed. A Simmonds and Curry flank combination would work but Eddie's style of aggressive defence does suit Earl and Underhill more.

Of course if Eddie opts for Ted Hill or George Martin at 6 then they'd be space at 8 for Simmonds. Would give the lineout three good jumpers as well.

I'm taling VERY old school openside flankers when 'jackaling' was a tight head prop's dream (easy target for rucking).

Duty281 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is anyone else completely underwhelmed at the thought of watching England v France?

Or people actually excited by it?

England will get beaten comfortably, little doubt of that despite the bookmakers putting England as the narrow favourites, but it'll be exciting to watch the French in full flow as they run in the tries.

Not a chance. France are in turmoil. England can beat them even at 60%.

king_carlos wrote:
I thought Billy had a good game against Wales after a very poor first two rounds.

This is why you don't give up on a player after a few bad games in a row. Form is temporary.

whatahitson wrote:

king_carlos wrote:
I thought Billy had a good game against Wales after a very poor first two rounds.

This is why you don't give up on a player after a few bad games in a row. Form is temporary.

It's what the Welsh always say.

lostinwales wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

king_carlos wrote:
I thought Billy had a good game against Wales after a very poor first two rounds.

This is why you don't give up on a player after a few bad games in a row. Form is temporary.

It's what the Welsh always say.

It was Bill Shankly who said it, a Scot in England. What have the Welsh got to do with it?

lostinwales wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

king_carlos wrote:
I thought Billy had a good game against Wales after a very poor first two rounds.

This is why you don't give up on a player after a few bad games in a row. Form is temporary.

It's what the Welsh always say.

True in 1 or 2 cases.

From an outsider looking in, it appears that WC final has really spooked Eddie Jones. He’s placed such a high tariff on a big, physically dominating pack above all else, it seems there is very little way to change him.

The second thing is that England almost suffer from having so many good players to choose from. In Wales, when Faletau gets injured (as he was for the WC), we simply have to choose the next best 8, who happened to be Moriarty. Now they don’t have a huge amount of similarities, but lack of other options mean it’s a case of needs must.

I personally think that Simmonds should undoubtedly be in the squad, and I’d have him in the team. In the Scotland game, their pack physically bested England, but in Ritchie, Watson and Fagerson, where was their huge, dominant ball carrier?

He hasn't really changed the pack that much following the WC. Main difference has been a switch to 6 forwards on the bench perhaps not surprisingly given Proudfoot is the forwards coach now.

mountain man wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Welcome mountain man. For the most part it's a cracking wee community on 606v2. Hopefully you enjoy yourself!

I'd still prefer Lawrence get a chance over Odogwu. I don't see Odogwu as a winger at international level (limited kicking game and high ball work worse than Daly) but he definitely has talent as a game breaking 13. Lawrence was strong against Ireland in the ANC before being dumped after the backline got outplayed tactically by Scotland (especially by a marvelous performance from Hogg). I'd hope both Odogwu and Lawrence get caps over the summer. If Joseph were in the squad I'd have him starting personally.

I hope Underhill is recalled though I'd probably have him on the bench with Earl starting personally.

I thought Billy had a good game against Wales after a very poor first two rounds. I think the stats showed Billy making the most metres after contact in the last round which given he's usually got two tacklers hitting him shows he is getting back to what he does well. Even if he is a blunt instrument it's been a very effective one in successful sides. His defensive game in the ANC was excellent and his running game is slowly getting back to where it once was.

Daly's drop off from his best is pretty disastrous at this stage so I really hope Malins gets a chance.

I agree Billy played well against Wales and actually when they weren't conceding penalties England played some excellent rugby. Undeniably shafted by ref and TMO but that's another story!
Odogwu as you say should be 13 for England, whether he'll get a chance though. Italy would have been perfect game and possibly may have but loss to Scots scuppered it I reckon.
Daley never has been and in my opinion never will be a 15. Have him on bench at best as wing/centre cover.

I take you are a fellow Prachett fan?

I still think Daly could be an excellent international 13. He needs club game time though which is an issue with Sarries situation. A good player though woefully out of form. On the last Lions tour only Farrell, Daly and Faletau played 80 minutes of all 3 tests so Gatland clearly rates him, if the Lions tour goes ahead it wouldn't surprise me massively if Daly makes the squad despite his dire form due to versatility and suiting the game plan - twitter might combust but I can still see it!

Yep, big Pratchett fan. Reading Guards! Guards! for the first time in a fair while just now. Right up there with my favourite Discworld novels. Mort is still top of the list for me (a strange favourite to many but I simply love that book and find it wonderful fun to read) then Guards comes in the next tier with Small Gods, Reaper Man and Wyrd Sisters all jostling for second place. Equal Rites and Witches Abroad also hold a close place in my heart. An incredible author who's work almost never fails to cheer me up, even on the darker days.

I said it before that Jonny May is not looking "right" at the moment. I for one would like to see Odogwu on the bench covering 11, 13 & 14. If May underperforms in the first half, take him off and let's see what Paolo can do. No point in having him in the squad if he's not being used. Watson can cover 15.

I'd love to see Mitchell on the bench at 9 and Malins to start with Obano on the bench in place of Genge. However I doubt very much that Eddie will make too many changes. It'll probably be the same 23. Again.

Jones can't start dropping England's best players. Otherwise it makes it too obvious that he's trying to undermine their Lions chances for England's benefit.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/09/england-enlist-referee-wayne-barnes-to-address-six-nations-disciplinary-woes

England call in Wayne Barnes to sort out the discipline issues. Very sensible. Clive Woodward used to do this.