England - what next?

First topic message reminder :

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

BamBam wrote:Directly correlated to the number of nights out each union took the CVC executives on pre COVID

Well that's hardly fair, London has far more special nightclubs than Cardiff.....

Teams know how to stop BillyV, he doesn't have impact anymore, even saying himself he is rubbish.

Stop Billy making 2/3m in contact and you stop Englands only plan, so they resort to kicking.

chris_501 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Directly correlated to the number of nights out each union took the CVC executives on pre COVID

Well that's hardly fair, London has far more special nightclubs than Cardiff.....

More seriously, it'll be related to the commercial value of the broadcasting rights, but not directly proportional or England and France would take a far bigger share.

TightHEAD wrote:Teams know how to stop BillyV, he doesn't have impact anymore, even saying himself he is rubbish.

Stop Billy making 2/3m in contact and you stop Englands only plan, so they resort to kicking.

Depends. He doesn't have to make metres if he can offload while sucking in enough defenders to make a hole for someone else.

17 years since Fun bus retired. If anything ot speaks for just what a model pro Vickery is for Still going.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Robson is learning from the best in front of him.

Youngs has been many things this 6N but inept isn't one of them. Robson looked like he was desperately trying to prove a point Vs Wales and cost us 10 points, he tried to be clever but was mainly incompetent. Youngs was pretty pragmatic but directed the attack and scored a nice try himself, inspiring? No but he did a solid job.

Robson needs to learn from Youngs because a 29 year old scrum half with double figures in caps should not be making errors I'd be annoyed at a 21 year old debutant making.

Bar the Wales game, Youngs has been pretty poor. If Youngs can play like that every week I'd shut up.

mountain man wrote:Agree Joe Simmonds not answer but M Smith is. Randall hopefully will get a chance as England desperately need a 9. Sorry but Youngs time is up, he'll have 1 game in 4 that's good but that's not enough. Robson was good against Italy but that was Italy. When he came on against Scotland he was lost. Ben Spencer deserves a go.
Daley never has been nor ever will be a good 15 let alone International one. Malins or Watson should be there. Maybe keep Daley on bench as cover for centre/wing.

Is Joe Cokinsinga injured? He's another who's dropped off radar completely. May on one wing Joe C on other, blend of pace and power with Watson at 15 and Malins on bench.

Even if England win next two games with same 28 as currently in it's hardly building for future.

May have to stop, I'm boring myself now banging same drum...

Maybe Marcus Smith is the answer I don't know. Ford for me is one of the best 10s in the world and England can win a world cup with him starting at 10. He will be 31 at the next world cup. So what role does Marcus Smith realistically have? Third choice 10 as Farrell will still be around as a 10/12 and a key leader, maybe even captain. Can he add value in that role or will he be like a Cipriani? It's hard to say.

I disagree about Youngs he's still a great player and one of the best 9s in the UK. He will have just turned 34 at the next world cup so he's pushing it but as far as I can tell he's being used in the same way Haskell and Robshaw were as experienced place holders to set the standards for Spencer and Randall and maybe a few others to take over.

On Daly, it's a risk worth taking. He adds enough in attack to offset his weaknesses in defence. It's a tactical gamble based on the other alternatives and it works. Was Daly exploited in the world cup by any of the best teams? No. Long term it would be better to have a better full back but as Jones has said, he doesn't control the talent and he tried Furbank in the position and he was a lot worse as he didn't add what Daly did (also very underrated kicker as well as quick and good in attack). I wouldn't judge Daly too harshly he looks rusty more than anything. Watson is far better on the wing. Malins will get his chance.

I thought Cokanasiga would have a chance but Jones clearly wasn't impressed with what he saw out in Japan. Talking about Pacific Islanders and needing them to carry and take out 2-3 defenders he's right there readymade to do the job All Black and Australian wingers do but I assume he wasn't good enough at the basics yet for England. High standards are good to have.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Alot will depend on if the USA / Canada Summer tour goes ahead if we see the like of Marcus Smith, Dombrandt, Odogwu etc getting games....

Nothing will change in the next two games.

How will people feel if we smash the next to games off the park and put 30 points + on france etc..?

Yes very important to have some sort of second string tour in the next 12 months. Curry and Wilson both won their first caps down in Argentina in 2017. Underhill also started breaking through just after that. The pandemic has really hurt the development of rugby teams but no one has suffered more than South Africa so we shouldn't complain.

I think England will beat France by 10-15 points. France will be emotionally/mentally all over the place given what's gone on and England tore Wales to shreds when they ran the ball. Even just a 33% reduction in 'stupid' penalties and England should win.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Or are England just very unfit..not match fit which makes it look so much worse...and in reality only need to fix 1 or two positions...maybe 3

Agree also.

TightHEAD wrote:Teams know how to stop BillyV, he doesn't have impact anymore, even saying himself he is rubbish.

Stop Billy making 2/3m in contact and you stop Englands only plan, so they resort to kicking.

There's nothing wrong with kicking.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar the Wales game, Youngs has been pretty poor. If Youngs can play like that every week I'd shut up.

He wasn't bad against Scotland. Our only two attacks of note were him controlling the attack and taking us from halfway to the 5m line when two props both left the pass for each other and we got turned over. The other was his break that led to the Russell yellow card. Italy he was solid and largely forgettable.

Cockanasinga has barely managed to put a string of games together without injury and, as far as I can understand, not shown form either. The one who might have made an impact but seems very much in EJ's bad books is Thorley.

Completely right lost. Made a bright start before that injury with England and has yet to make a mark since returning to Bath. Took a fair while to start making use of that size but when he gets that confidence back I feel he'll be back in the reckoning.

Saw him in the championship against Donny and was underwhelmed but he came on leaps and bounds in the Prem.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar the Wales game, Youngs has been pretty poor. If Youngs can play like that every week I'd shut up.

He wasn't bad against Scotland. Our only two attacks of note were him controlling the attack and taking us from halfway to the 5m line when two props both left the pass for each other and we got turned over. The other was his break that led to the Russell yellow card. Italy he was solid and largely forgettable.

Its the passing which gets me. So slow and inaccurate for the majority. The breaks are a real plus this tournament though. He made 2 or 3 great ones vs Wales and the one you mention. Really need that on Saturday as it just creates space for the backs. Fingers crossed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar the Wales game, Youngs has been pretty poor. If Youngs can play like that every week I'd shut up.

He wasn't bad against Scotland. Our only two attacks of note were him controlling the attack and taking us from halfway to the 5m line when two props both left the pass for each other and we got turned over. The other was his break that led to the Russell yellow card. Italy he was solid and largely forgettable.

Its the passing which gets me. So slow and inaccurate for the majority. The breaks are a real plus this tournament though. He made 2 or 3 great ones vs Wales and the one you mention. Really need that on Saturday as it just creates space for the backs. Fingers crossed.

Passing has never been Ben's best skill. Was really frustrating when he went down the tactical route a couple of years back where he stopped picking and passing or trying to snipe, started playing just from the base. He didn't have the skills to be top quality just doing that. 

What was worrying for me was that Robson's passing was worse. I'm hoping Randall is fit and gets a proper go on the summer tour with either Mitchell or Maunder as competition so we can start looking an actual long term successor for Benny. Even if Benny steps up his game and holds onto the shirt for another year or two we have a young gun there wrestling the shirt from him or getting increasing amounts of time off the bench.

It needs to happen. We haven't had another scrum half get a look in since Care and it hasn't been good for the team or Youngs.

A scrum half's passing is not his strong point, unbelievable really.

Robson's passing is much better than Youngs, it's not even a competition. Robson has just failed to produce on the few occasions he's been given. He needs a run of starts to do this.

And I agree with that pooly to a point. Robson wouldn't have been my choice in this squad but if he is that next in line he needs more game time. Someone needs more game time.

Quite why Care is so out of favour I don't know, think he's just another player who Eddie fell out with/doesn't rate etc. He's been excellent last couple of years, tons of International and club experience. Youngs too slow, watch the best 9s around these days they are so much quicker in thought and action and most importantly they consistently take right option. Youngs isn't a bad 9, just nowhere near best available.

If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

mountain man wrote:Quite why Care is so out of favour I don't know, think he's just another player who Eddie fell out with/doesn't rate etc. He's been excellent last couple of years, tons of International and club experience. Youngs too slow, watch the best 9s around these days they are so much quicker in thought and action and most importantly they consistently take right option. Youngs isn't a bad 9, just nowhere near best available.

And why was the in form 9 in Spencer ignored. If we're talking game plan Spencer is an extremely strong box kicker too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Quite why Care is so out of favour I don't know, think he's just another player who Eddie fell out with/doesn't rate etc. He's been excellent last couple of years, tons of International and club experience. Youngs too slow, watch the best 9s around these days they are so much quicker in thought and action and most importantly they consistently take right option. Youngs isn't a bad 9, just nowhere near best available.

And why was the in form 9 in Spencer ignored. If we're talking game plan Spencer is an extremely strong box kicker too.

Yep agree on Spencer as well.
Randall may have had shot if not injured whichs brings up another point. An awful lot of players seem to get injured in England training camp. Lawes and Randall this time and previous years there has always been at least one ruled out through training injury. Yes it happens to other teams as well but England seem particularly prone to it. Or maybe it's training methods.

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

Nice. I'm not saying they are my picks I was answering your question about 9s for Lions tour, they are 9s I reckon Gatland will consider. Do you REALLY think Youngs is starting Lions scrum half?
Try answering without being insulting this time.
Thanks.

mountain man wrote:Quite why Care is so out of favour I don't know, think he's just another player who Eddie fell out with/doesn't rate etc. He's been excellent last couple of years, tons of International and club experience. Youngs too slow, watch the best 9s around these days they are so much quicker in thought and action and most importantly they consistently take right option. Youngs isn't a bad 9, just nowhere near best available.

The value that Care brings at international level is unpredictability - he can change a game in moments as he did in that Australia AI near the end of his tenure. The problem seems to be that he won't stick to Eddie's patterns and they had a falling out because of it.

At one level, that's OK. Eddie is looking to construct a particular kind of team. On another level, it's a missed opportunity. Would Care have made a difference against South Africa in the RWC Final? Against Scotland? Against Wales? A score for England early in the final quarter could have swung the momentum in any of those matches, and that's what Care excels at. Part of Quins' resurgence is that they can flip between playing off 9 and playing off 10 as they see fit, which is really hard for defences.

During Lancaster's tenure, I felt that England's best halfback combinations were Youngs and Ford or Care and Farrell - but in the era of modern defences it would be interesting to see Ford paired with a more creative scrum half. That's what France have done since time immemorial, of course, but it also looks like the future to me.

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

It's not delusional at all, it's a fair point. Counter the statement or don't reply to it

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

It's not delusional at all, it's a fair point. Counter the statement or don't reply to it

Ok. "This is delusional because half of those players aren't even in the same league as Youngs".

Care never really got too much of a look after that match against NZ we should have won. We were attacking adn while he was getting the ball away quickly he was looking too much to get a pen by falling over NZ tacklers. A bit more composure and we'd have won it. Think he only picked up 1 more cap and was then gone. I assume other things went on behind the scenes of course.

As I understood it he told Eddie he thought he deserved the starting spot, not just a finishers role. Eddie, it seems, disagreed

Poorfour wrote:

mountain man wrote:Quite why Care is so out of favour I don't know, think he's just another player who Eddie fell out with/doesn't rate etc. He's been excellent last couple of years, tons of International and club experience. Youngs too slow, watch the best 9s around these days they are so much quicker in thought and action and most importantly they consistently take right option. Youngs isn't a bad 9, just nowhere near best available.

The value that Care brings at international level is unpredictability - he can change a game in moments as he did in that Australia AI near the end of his tenure. The problem seems to be that he won't stick to Eddie's patterns and they had a falling out because of it.

Care looked good as a finisher when the game was opening up and he could play heads up rugby like he does for Quins. Starting games he was poor and offered no tactical control or game management. I'm sure in his mind he felt he should have been first choice but I don't think anyone else did. He flattered to deceive. Eddie knew he'd never be a starter and at 3 years older than Youngs he needed to look elsewhere. The fact his selection policy post Care was awful doesn't help but the choice to move on was.

For scrum half for the Lions I would only consider Murray, Cooney and a number of Welsh players.

Actually brings me to a broader point - I can think of 5 players Gatland should look at who are not playing 6N rugby:
Joe Marler,
Marcus Smith,
Paddy Jackson,
Sam Simmons,
John Cooney

whatahitson wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

It's not delusional at all, it's a fair point. Counter the statement or don't reply to it

Ok. "This is delusional because half of those players aren't even in the same league as Youngs".

Last time I looked the Lions were not selected solely from the English Premiership

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

Casey is to young and inexperienced I'd have thought. Be happy to be proved wrong but Gatland doesn't tend to pick small either. Murray missing the 6N probably rules him out. Also Casey Vs Murray probably doesn't help either of their pushes for selection.

Price has been excellent and is probably the only definite selection so far in terms of scrum halfs.

The three Welsh boys can't hold down their own national jersey which won't help their claims for selection. Youngs played just as well as Hardy and Davies the other week as well.

Youngs with 100 caps and selected for the last two tours could well go as the experienced option. Perhaps a mid week captain though I'm not sure he'll be in the test team unless he really pulls something out the bag.

Michael Young is pulling up trees for the falcons

Armchairexpert wrote:As I understood it he told Eddie he thought he deserved the starting spot, not just a finishers role. Eddie, it seems, disagreed

Yeah I think it was a disagreement as such with Jones that basically scuppered his chances with England again which is a shame as so far this season he's been about one of the best 9s around. Current best by a mile is Du Pont and Faf De Klerk but unfortunately they don't qualify...

mountain man wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:As I understood it he told Eddie he thought he deserved the starting spot, not just a finishers role. Eddie, it seems, disagreed

Yeah I think it was a disagreement as such with Jones that basically scuppered his chances with England again which is a shame as so far this season he's been about one of the best 9s around. Current best by a mile is Du Pont and Faf De Klerk but unfortunately they don't qualify...

Aaron Smith and Yutaka Nagare are right up there too. TJ Perenara and Baptiste Serin are also wonderful players who are unlucky to have very good starters ahead of them. In most sides they'd be far higher profile by now. Dupont's the best of the lot for me though, an incredible player.

Aaron Smith thinks Dupont

https://www.rugbyworld.com/tournaments/six-nations-2021/aaron-smith-hails-antoine-dupont-as-worlds-best-119924

and so does Benny

https://www.the42.ie/antoine-dupont-best-scrum-half-in-world-rugby-5377478-Mar2021/

whatahitson wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

It's not delusional at all, it's a fair point. Counter the statement or don't reply to it

Ok. "This is delusional because half of those players aren't even in the same league as Youngs".

In your opinion. Insinuating that the poster is delusional for suggesting this would be suggesting he is not of sound mind. It's a fair comment. Disagree or agree....you're sailing close to the wind.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

It's not delusional at all, it's a fair point. Counter the statement or don't reply to it

Ok. "This is delusional because half of those players aren't even in the same league as Youngs".

In your opinion. Insinuating that the poster is delusional for suggesting this would be suggesting he is not of sound mind. It's a fair comment. Disagree or agree....you're sailing close to the wind.

Sailing close to what wind? You're being overly literal, I'm not claiming he is not of sound mind, it's very normal rhetoric between two adults. Which is entirely fair given the very strange decision to claim that players like Hardy and Casey, with a handful of test caps and no real pedigree, are ahead of Youngs in the Lions pecking order. I asked a fair question, received an answer that is very hard to justify on the basis of actual fact, so I don't think I'm in rough seas. Particularly given some of the nonsense I've had said to me in the last few weeks from other people.

Youngs is the starting Lions 9 as things stand. That's the reality of the situation.

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:

mountain man wrote:

whatahitson wrote:If Youngs is so bad, who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?

Price, Hardy, Williams, Davies, Casey. Maybe Murray if fit.

Likely to be one of those. Youngs not a hope of being on Lions tour.

This is just delusional.

Nice. I'm not saying they are my picks I was answering your question about 9s for Lions tour, they are 9s I reckon Gatland will consider. Do you REALLY think Youngs is starting Lions scrum half?
Try answering without being insulting this time.
Thanks.

I asked a general question about who is ahead of Youngs in the Lions pecking order. You've produced some really dodgy names like Casey and Hardy that won't be getting anywhere near Youngs, let alone ahead of him. I apologise if you took my response as questioning your state of mind. You're already backing down from your list though. I asked who was ahead of Youngs, not who Gatland will consider. And yes, given Murray losing form, Wales having no settled 9, and Ali Price being too loose and inconsistent for Gatland to play as a starting 9 (and not as good as Youngs), at the moment he's at best first among equals for the test shirt. That could change but I can't see him being left out of the 23.

Players like Danny Care are why Eddie Jones picked hungry inexperienced youngsters to fill out his world cup squad like I said earlier in this thread. It's no good if you don't want to do your talking and fighting on the pitch. Unhappy, entitled, established players clearly don't make good reserves.

He'll do the same again in 2 years time which is why worrying about squad depth in every position shouldn't be a concern (and why wasting precious test match minutes on someone why isn't good enough but would be a media friendly selection is pointless for the bigger picture: winning the world cup).

The elite culture Jones has created gets overlooked time and time again for this cheap desire to hand out caps like they're cookies. If a player like Brown or Care upsets the apple cart then we no the cost. It's hard to argue with that. The instinct within English rugby to basically go back to Lancaster's way of doing things shows that a lot of people don't really think things through or perhaps don't really care about England winning a world cup.

No I'm not backing down at all, not only do you see fit to throw insults around you then see something in my post that's not there.
As far as I'm concerned Youngs should not go on Lions tour, and certainly not as starter in Test team. The players I listed are in my opinion ahead of him.

In all seriousness, are you a personal friend of Youngs because your defence of him is strange given how poor he's been last 2 years. The odd better game - not great but better is interspersed with lots of bad ones.
Anyway, I came onto this forum to have reasoned debates and input not argue so we'll leave it there. You obviously rate Ben Youngs extremely highly, that is of course your absolute right. I would hazard a guess among England supporters you are in somewhat of a minority though.

mountain man wrote:No I'm not backing down at all, not only do you see fit to throw insults around you then see something in my post that's not there.
As far as I'm concerned Youngs should not go on Lions tour, and certainly not as starter in Test team. The players I listed are in my opinion ahead of him.

In all seriousness, are you a personal friend of Youngs because your defence of him is strange given how poor he's been last 2 years. The odd better game - not great but better is interspersed with lots of bad ones.
Anyway, I came onto this forum to have reasoned debates and input not argue so we'll leave it there. You obviously rate Ben Youngs extremely highly, that is of course your absolute right. I would hazard a guess among England supporters you are in somewhat of a minority though.

Are you an England fan?

Mountain, much like the BBC you sometimes find people pretending to be other nationalities. Sometimes the mask slips and suddenly guys like Willi Heinz become inexperienced youngsters. Not that this is happening now just to be clear.

Yes and have been all my life, what a strange question. Do you think I'm not? The fact I don't rate Youngs along with several others on current form doesn't mean I don't support team and want them to win every game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Mountain, much like the BBC you sometimes find people pretending to be other nationalities. Sometimes the mask slips and suddenly guys like Willi Heinz become inexperienced youngsters. Not that this is happening now just to be clear.

That's why I came on here away from BBC, way too many trolls and idiots and no moderation.
Just to clear things up, 100% English. Born there, both parents English and could in fact play for England except for a few small matters like way too old, too rubbish although in my distant youth was a quick wing.

mountain man wrote:Yes and have been all my life, what a strange question. Do you think I'm not? The fact I don't rate Youngs along with several others on current form doesn't mean I don't support team and want them to win every game.

Ok fair enough. I thought it's worth checking as on face value it's hard to tell as you are running down an England centurion who is playing decent rugby and who just had a stellar last game while championing some bang average players from other teams. So I thought it was worth checking.

You'll have to forgive me for not being sure what point you're making as well as you said this "I'm not saying they are my picks I was answering your question about 9s for Lions tour, they are 9s I reckon Gatland will consider." Now you're claiming that these are your picks and you would select them ahead of Youngs.

I think extraordinary claims need extraordinary support in all honesty. Basically, give me something that justifies your claim as I'm trying to be polite but it's hard to see how you came to the conclusion that you did other than just listing all the 9s from the other countries.

My point was trying to demonstrate that, actually, Youngs is far better than some vocal fans are giving him credit for because even if you don't think he's playing well he's definitely in the top 3 scrum halves in the British Isles. Maybe Cooney and Rhys Webb woyld have something to say about that but they're not playing international rugby so they don't have the opportunity. There's a lot of latent anger with the world cup final loss and I think lockdown and the nature of social media means people are looking for a scapegoat so they go looking for a player like Youngs, who didn't have a good game in the final, and who also touches the ball more than any other player so sticks in fans minds when they want to vent. It's lazy analysis to be honest and the kind of thing you expect from rugby twitter i.e. people who don't really know very much about rugby but love to express an opinion anyway. Same goes for criticism of Farrell, Eddie Jones, Billy, and no doubt it'll be someone else by Sunday. I'm not saying that applies to you but I do think your list of players is...without trying to 'sail' anywhere...fairly ridiculous. In the best possible way.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Mountain, much like the BBC you sometimes find people pretending to be other nationalities. Sometimes the mask slips and suddenly guys like Willi Heinz become inexperienced youngsters. Not that this is happening now just to be clear.

That's why I came on here away from BBC, way too many trolls and idiots and no moderation.
Just to clear things up, 100% English. Born there, both parents English and could in fact play for England except for a few small matters like way too old, too rubbish although in my distant youth was a quick wing.

Proper mess there. At least on a rugby forum you don't see 100 comments saying why isn't Thorley playing tomorrow.

Well you asked the exact question "who is going to start ahead of him for the Lions this summer?"

I answered you who I thought would start ahead of him, no-one knows as picking Lions team before 6N is even over is somewhat pointless as no-one knows what form players are in or whether injury will rule them out.

As for blaming lockdown on people - lots of fans, England fans - saying Youngs has been poor is frankly laughable. It's also nothing to do with last world cup, the fact is he hasn't played well since then. You're also on the insulting game as well saying it's lazy analysis from people who know little about rugby. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it appears you're saying if we don't rate Youngs and think he should be starting Test 9 for England and Lions then we're clueless. Hope I'm wrong.