England - what next?

First topic message reminder :

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yea yes...let's throw away the entire squad and bring in a load of kids....Jeez...knee Jeez reaction.  

The squad will be more or less the same with a few tweaks...

As I've said many times...I'm not sure Eddie is bothered about this 6n..he's looking further ahead...

I actually am quite positive despite performances this 6n

Well I'd throw out the squad but only for the development tour. 

Despite the complaints Eddie is definitely trying to build a certain style of play. It requires 7s levels of fitness which I think may have been the issue this 6N as most of the squad barely played from early December up until February. That's a long time to only play a game or two and then be match fit for Eddie's high intensity plan. I think you're right he didn't mind sacrificing the 6N for the greater good but at the same time he doesn't like losing.

i agree with that one!

And i agree completely about your other point. The video analysis that Poorfour suggested to watch is a very interesting watch. And it has swayed my thoughts actually.

doctor_grey wrote:I would take a punt on Tom Freeman from Saints at the back, or maybe on the wing.  All he does is make plays.  Good catching kicks and has serious quicks.  Very young and perhaps a year too early, but this summer allows for that, methinks.    

I will add another bolter from Saints, Ollie Slieghtholme. Blisteringly quick, seems good defensively, safe under the high ball. I have not seen too much kicking from him, so i can't comment on that aspect of his game. Came up through the England age grade teams, played for England 7's in the 2017 Commonwealth Youth Games, even scored in the final.

lostinwales wrote:Worth pointing out that we are looking to the current pack to potentially provide Farrell's replacement, and a lot of the current issues seem to start there.

Probably one of the reasons Jones selected Shields, over players like people's favourite Don Armand, was his potential for on-field leadership, so he was alert back then to the need to expand the group. There was some talk of Jamie George as potential captaincy material but that only really works if he's a guaranteed starter.

Jones didn't immediately take the captaincy from Hartley and give it to Farrell. Farrell led the South Africa tour, and, when Hartley came back from injury for the Autumn test series in 2018, he named them joint captains. While not especially satisfactory, there was some logic, as Hartley was regularly being subbed off. That doesn't generally happen with Farrell, although we got a chance to see the pecking order when he went off for an HIA, and Curry took the armband. His first decision to re-set the scrum after a free kick immediately backfired when we gave away a penalty and three points. I suspect Ford would have taken the armband if he hadn't been taken off moments earlier, and I wonder what he would have chosen to do.

The AI's are the next big set of games for the full England squad (the Summer tour is a Saxons tour)

I wouldnt expect too many new faces in that squad unless they really impress on the Summer tour. And it might not be a player who stands out on the summer tour...it might be someone who does everything "right" but not flashy who gets promoted. And someone with insane fitness.
Dont expect anyone lazy to be promoted.

GeordieFalcon wrote:...it might be someone who does everything "right" but not flashy who gets promoted....

On that note was common to see Jonny Hill lauded for his Premiership form, and the selection of Ewels greeted with indifference. If you took a straw poll now, then I'd imagine most would agree Ewels had a better tournament than Hill.

Rugby Fan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Worth pointing out that we are looking to the current pack to potentially provide Farrell's replacement, and a lot of the current issues seem to start there.

Probably one of the reasons Jones selected Shields, over players like people's favourite Don Armand, was his potential for on-field leadership, so he was alert back then to the need to expand the group. There was some talk of Jamie George as potential captaincy material but that only really works if he's a guaranteed starter.

Jones didn't immediately take the captaincy from Hartley and give it to Farrell. Farrell led the South Africa tour, and, when Hartley came back from injury for the Autumn test series in 2018, he named them joint captains. While not especially satisfactory, there was some logic, as Hartley was regularly being subbed off. That doesn't generally happen with Farrell, although we got a chance to see the pecking order when he went off for an HIA, and Curry took the armband. His first decision to re-set the scrum after a free kick immediately backfired when we gave away a penalty and three points. I suspect Ford would have taken the armband if he hadn't been taken off moments earlier, and I wonder what he would have chosen to do.

I have not seen enough (ok - pretty much anything) of Mercer since he started senior rugby, but his performances for England at U21 screamed leadership. It is academic now with him heading to France. As we all know the back row is very competitive right now, but if he is showing the same kind of presence for Bath I think he would have been worth a shot.

I have been very vocal about Ewells in the squad...but yes he has proved better than the "inform" Hill hasnt he.

Hill was hopeless in 6N, starting and as sub. Think only meaningful contribution was to give away mindless pens. Ewels good against France and did his best against Ireland.
Launchbury massive absence as was Kruis.

Launchbury always screamed out captain material to me but unfortunately is anything but a guaranteed starter. For some reason I don't see either Itoje or Curry as captains, one is too vocal while the other seems a bit meek. Kruis if he returns to England would be another option but again effectively rules out starting either Launchbury or Lawes going forward.

He'd be the starter for me with itoje. Indeed he's the lock who has started more games than any other in the current group.

It's the normal weird year of Lions where the summer group will contain very few of what would be considered starters, Launchbury and Ewels would be my locks to give a bit of stability in that pack. The approach to how to play will be intriguing, a lot of the form players are used to playing attack first (ie run) so will Jones start to reflect that in his first team as he followed the approach of Saracens when they sat atop the league?

Though I'm never one for reactive decisions on coaches there is a growing clamour around Jones: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/21/eddie-jones-faces-talks-with-rfu-over-england-unacceptable-six-nations-rugby-union

Sounds like there is a break in his contract which would allow a parting of ways reasonably cheaply. I wasn't aware of that tbh so that in my mind does open more a possibility of a change but I think that decision is firmly in Jones side of the court.

Yes but key thing then is if Jones went who would replace him? People saying Baxter but he won't leave Exeter and has ruled himself out anyway. Likewise Pat Lam at Bristol.

Personally my pick would be Dean Richards. Pretty unlikely but still.

I did an article of who I thought was likely a couple of months ago, may scroll down and have a look who I said, Baxter and Mitchell were 2 I thought likely i think. Depends who applies as ever. Before I go back and see its at these times the guys and Gals (if there are any) normally go in a different direction and I think that may push those playing a more pleasing style to the fore. I think Lam and Robertson would be interested.

No thanks to Dean Richards, ain't good enough and ticks very few boxes for me. Would like to hear sarge and geordie on that as well as they're obviously much closer to Newcastle and know the ins and outs.

Dean? Mate even the falcons fans are questioning him! A dinosaur.

How about a return for Lancaster, he has more experience now and has the intelligence to learn from his mistakes.

https://www.606v2.com/t69792-next-england-coach

I said Baxter, Mitchell or McCall.

No I don't think Lancaster would ever return to the main role. Perhaps as a hand on coach.

Baxter is a great coach.

McCall also springs to mind but is he too close to Saracens players?

Whoever it is (assuming there is a change) needs to be hard nosed about selection. It's pretty obvious Jones has his favourites and is blind to others. Mitchell in as head coach? Again would he be too close to current players.

Like I said, I'd throw in Robertson and Lam in there now as an extension as I think if the view is staleness they offer a definitive break.

However, is the problem the coaching methods or the fact the coach is not picking form players but the same old same old?

No good bringing in a new coach unless he has vision to see what's out there.

Could have best coach in world but if he picks same XV as last week can't see a huge amount changing.

That 15 has issues in 9 and 15 for me but I'd acknowledge despite my frustration there its not possible to chase form in all positions as you'd likely have a very high turnover in players one tournament to another.

For me, Mako, Billy, Daly, Farrell and Youngs go from starting line up. I'd start with Ford at 10 but have Smith on bench. So that's 5 which is a lot but why not? Can it really be worse? It's never going to happen but it should.
It's not as if England played well and lost. They were awful, especially against Scotland and Ireland. Wales game was badly affected by terrible ref which undoubtedly had a huge impact on result.

If we keep same players and same coach what will change? The odd result like against France then back to earth with a resounding thump.
Jones has had enough time as have the players, if they as a group haven't worked it out by now will they ever?

mountain man wrote:For me, Mako, Billy, Daly, Farrell and Youngs go from starting line up. I'd start with Ford at 10 but have Smith on bench. So that's 5 which is a lot but why not? Can it really be worse? It's never going to happen but it should.
It's not as if England played well and lost. They were awful, especially against Scotland and Ireland. Wales game was badly affected by terrible ref which undoubtedly had a huge impact on result.

If we keep same players and same coach what will change? The odd result like against France then back to earth with a resounding thump.
Jones has had enough time as have the players, if they as a group haven't worked it out by now will they ever?

The Wales game, England got back to 24-24 from there they imploded discipline wise & that was what lost them the game when all is said & done. Yes the ref made 2 poor decisions but you could also argue that Itoje was lucky not to get a yellow.

True but the effort required to get back to 24 all plus mental pressure told. England could have been 24-10 up and the complexion of game be totally different, Wales would be chasing game instead England were.
However, it is what it is. No-one can say what outcome would be if those tries weren't given. I also agree Itoje lucky not to get carded.

mountain man wrote:True but the effort required to get back to 24 all plus mental pressure told. England could have been 24-10 up and the complexion of game be totally different, Wales would be chasing game instead England were.
However, it is what it is. No-one can say what outcome would be if those tries weren't given. I also agree Itoje lucky not to get carded.

Wales would have likely had 6 points rather than 14 had the tries not been given as the Williams effort was being played under advantage.

At 24-24 the momentum was with England but they had brain farts.

Just a point it wasn't poor decisions in that game but the officials applying incorrect laws. Refs will make mistakes in every game but there really isn't an excuse for not knowing the laws. I don't even consider that a defeat to be honest, goes into the pile along with the 1999 game playing the world select 15!

As I said the Welsh leadership needs to be brought into question following their end to the France game if we're criticising Farrell et al.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just a point it wasn't poor decisions in that game but the officials applying incorrect laws. Refs will make mistakes in every game but there really isn't an excuse for not knowing the laws. I don't even consider that a defeat to be honest, goes into the pile along with the 1999 game playing the world select 15!

As I said the Welsh leadership needs to be brought into question following their end to the France game if we're criticising Farrell et al.

We failed to see the game & the Grand Slam out, I agree that there will be questions asked but the optimist in me thinks we will learn more about this squad from the defeat than we would have if we'd seen it out.

i have a feeling Eddie is going nowhere, and England will be fine come the AI's.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i have a feeling Eddie is going nowhere, and England will be fine come the AI's.

I know it has been more or less the same for everyone but the restrictions on the teams forced by the pandemic don't help at all. This includes lack of game time running into the 6N.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i have a feeling Eddie is going nowhere, and England will be fine come the AI's.

They may well do but are you happy with that if it's basically same team? Professional sport especially International is all about winning and for a long time I was happy to accept poor performances as England were winning. 2020 case in point, I thought England overall pretty poor BUT they won.
Now England awful and losing so something has to change and if EJ stays then he surely must look to bring in new and frankly better players otherwise it'll be same old story. Flatter to deceive with a few wins then wheels come off, no plan B, indiscipline and losses.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a moaning sod but it's getting to me now. If anything comes out of such a bad 6N then hopefully it's realisation from coaches and players that if it's not right fix it.

Didn't realise quite how bad it had been from an England perspective:

1) 121 points conceded in this year's Six Nations. That's a record-high from an England perspective in the Six Nations.

2) 67 (!) penalties conceded in this year's Six Nations. Same as Italy. That's, apparently, an all-time Six Nations record.

3) Complete disappearance of the once-fabled quick start. England have conceded the first try in every Six Nations game this year, and only managed to score two first-half tries in the games against the opposition that finished above them in the table.

Probably England's worst Six Nations of all-time, even accounting for some dark days under Robinson/Ashton/Johnson. Anyone who thinks England can just flick a switch and turn it back on for the AIs...professional sport doesn't work like that. I suppose one small mercy is England aren't set to play New Zealand this autumn.

A serious rebuild is needed and I think Jones' time is up.

The goal is the world cup and they are not won two years prior, it's about peaking at the right time.

Pre Lions tour form in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant and it's after the fallout from that that we'll have a better indication of where the home nations are. I'm not going to say that the recent performances haven't been disappointing but I genuinely don't think they matter when all things are considered especially with regards to covid restrictions. England were terrible in 2018 but found themselves in the world cup final 18 months later.

Soul Requiem wrote:The goal is the world cup and they are not won two years prior, it's about peaking at the right time.

Pre Lions tour form in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant and it's after the fallout from that that we'll have a better indication of where the home nations are. I'm not going to say that the recent performances haven't been disappointing but I genuinely don't think they matter when all things are considered especially with regards to covid restrictions. England were terrible in 2018 but found themselves in the world cup final 18 months later.

If that is true then none of the Saracens players should have been anywhere near the squad with their lack of game time.

mountain man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i have a feeling Eddie is going nowhere, and England will be fine come the AI's.

They may well do but are you happy with that if it's basically same team? Professional sport especially International is all about winning and for a long time I was happy to accept poor performances as England were winning. 2020 case in point, I thought England overall pretty poor BUT they won.
Now England awful and losing so something has to change and if EJ stays then he surely must look to bring in new and frankly better players otherwise it'll be same old story. Flatter to deceive with a few wins then wheels come off, no plan B, indiscipline and losses.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a moaning sod but it's getting to me now. If anything comes out of such a bad 6N then hopefully it's realisation from coaches and players that if it's not right fix it.

Legitimate question ....who comes in for what position?

I can think of about 3/4 players who i would bring in thats all. And im not sure even they would be ready for Int Rugby.

For example, Exeter lock hill was a form lock in the prem and has been well out of his depth...and we've all been pushing for Lawrence...but to be honest...he looked so uncomfortable out there getting completely owned by Henshaw all game.

So in all honest...i wouldnt want to make a huge amount of changes...and would genuinely be looking for Eddie to make the improvements to the team, for the AIs.

Tearing up the prem doesnt mean someone will tear it up at international level...

Edit: Dont forget they won everything they could win last season...so one bad tournament so far...

I get England are building towards RWC 2023 but if it's same coach, same players, then what will change? Jones blue print is to have big forward pack to dominate opposition, get on front foot and release backs. Great. Except when it doesn't work like 2019 RWC final and this 6N when teams matched or beat England up front. Then there is no plan B, they resort to poor aimless kicking, get flustered under pressure hence give away pens and ultimately lose.

We cannot unfortunately rely on likes of Manu to come back and stay fit, been too many times now he's got crocked.
So, need significant changes and another plan as there is no way England will beat up likes of SA up front and it's pretty obvious other teams are improving and currently England going backwards.

So what would your starting 15 and bench look like for the autumn ints...MM.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mountain man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i have a feeling Eddie is going nowhere, and England will be fine come the AI's.

They may well do but are you happy with that if it's basically same team? Professional sport especially International is all about winning and for a long time I was happy to accept poor performances as England were winning. 2020 case in point, I thought England overall pretty poor BUT they won.
Now England awful and losing so something has to change and if EJ stays then he surely must look to bring in new and frankly better players otherwise it'll be same old story. Flatter to deceive with a few wins then wheels come off, no plan B, indiscipline and losses.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a moaning sod but it's getting to me now. If anything comes out of such a bad 6N then hopefully it's realisation from coaches and players that if it's not right fix it.

Legitimate question ....who comes in for what position?

I can think of about 3/4 players who i would bring in thats all. And im not sure even they would be ready for Int Rugby.

For example, Exeter lock hill was a form lock in the prem and has been well out of his depth...and we've all been pushing for Lawrence...but to be honest...he looked so uncomfortable out there getting completely owned by Henshaw all game.

So in all honest...i wouldnt want to make a huge amount of changes...and would genuinely be looking for Eddie to make the improvements to the team, for the AIs.

Tearing up the prem doesnt mean someone will tear it up at international level...

Edit: Dont forget they wont everything they could win last season...so one bad tournament so far...

Randall, Spencer at 9.
Smith, Umaga 10.
Manu(if fit), Slade, Odogwu centres
Dombrandt, Simmonds 8
Marler if he'll come back in front row.
Whether the players are ready we won't know unless given a chance. I know Simmonds didn't impress when he was tried previously but Eng desperately need someone other than Billy now.

Hill has been hopeless for England, to be honest a lot of the time he looks like he's not that bothered. He's way more effective and determined for Exeter.

in this tournament there seems to have been 2 distinct plans to me anyway, where we've gone from a very heavily kick focus to much more running.

mountain man wrote:I get England are building towards RWC 2023 but if it's same coach, same players, then what will change? Jones blue print is to have big forward pack to dominate opposition, get on front foot and release backs. Great. Except when it doesn't work like 2019 RWC final and this 6N when teams matched or beat England up front. Then there is no plan B, they resort to poor aimless kicking, get flustered under pressure hence give away pens and ultimately lose.

We cannot unfortunately rely on likes of Manu to come back and stay fit, been too many times now he's got crocked.
So, need significant changes and another plan as there is no way England will beat up likes of SA up front and it's pretty obvious other teams are improving and currently England going backwards.

The team during the 2019 world cup had significant changes to it from the team in 2017 or even 2018. Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell, Te'o and Brown were all consistently selected but had been jettisoned by the time of the world cup through loss of form and or injury.

mountain man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mountain man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i have a feeling Eddie is going nowhere, and England will be fine come the AI's.

They may well do but are you happy with that if it's basically same team? Professional sport especially International is all about winning and for a long time I was happy to accept poor performances as England were winning. 2020 case in point, I thought England overall pretty poor BUT they won.
Now England awful and losing so something has to change and if EJ stays then he surely must look to bring in new and frankly better players otherwise it'll be same old story. Flatter to deceive with a few wins then wheels come off, no plan B, indiscipline and losses.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a moaning sod but it's getting to me now. If anything comes out of such a bad 6N then hopefully it's realisation from coaches and players that if it's not right fix it.

Legitimate question ....who comes in for what position?

I can think of about 3/4 players who i would bring in thats all. And im not sure even they would be ready for Int Rugby.

For example, Exeter lock hill was a form lock in the prem and has been well out of his depth...and we've all been pushing for Lawrence...but to be honest...he looked so uncomfortable out there getting completely owned by Henshaw all game.

So in all honest...i wouldnt want to make a huge amount of changes...and would genuinely be looking for Eddie to make the improvements to the team, for the AIs.

Tearing up the prem doesnt mean someone will tear it up at international level...

Edit: Dont forget they wont everything they could win last season...so one bad tournament so far...

Randall, Spencer at 9.
Smith, Umaga 10.
Manu(if fit), Slade, Odogwu centres
Dombrandt, Simmonds 8
Marler if he'll come back in front row.
Whether the players are ready we won't know unless given a chance. I  know Simmonds didn't impress when he was tried previously but Eng desperately need someone other than Billy now.

Hill has been hopeless for England, to be honest a lot of the time he looks like he's not that bothered. He's way more effective and determined for Exeter.

Simmonds has at least 1 potm for England.

mountain man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

mountain man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i have a feeling Eddie is going nowhere, and England will be fine come the AI's.

They may well do but are you happy with that if it's basically same team? Professional sport especially International is all about winning and for a long time I was happy to accept poor performances as England were winning. 2020 case in point, I thought England overall pretty poor BUT they won.
Now England awful and losing so something has to change and if EJ stays then he surely must look to bring in new and frankly better players otherwise it'll be same old story. Flatter to deceive with a few wins then wheels come off, no plan B, indiscipline and losses.

Sorry if I'm coming across as a moaning sod but it's getting to me now. If anything comes out of such a bad 6N then hopefully it's realisation from coaches and players that if it's not right fix it.

Legitimate question ....who comes in for what position?

I can think of about 3/4 players who i would bring in thats all. And im not sure even they would be ready for Int Rugby.

For example, Exeter lock hill was a form lock in the prem and has been well out of his depth...and we've all been pushing for Lawrence...but to be honest...he looked so uncomfortable out there getting completely owned by Henshaw all game.

So in all honest...i wouldnt want to make a huge amount of changes...and would genuinely be looking for Eddie to make the improvements to the team, for the AIs.

Tearing up the prem doesnt mean someone will tear it up at international level...

Edit: Dont forget they wont everything they could win last season...so one bad tournament so far...

Randall, Spencer at 9.
Smith, Umaga 10.
Manu(if fit), Slade, Odogwu centres
Dombrandt, Simmonds 8
Marler if he'll come back in front row.
Whether the players are ready we won't know unless given a chance. I  know Simmonds didn't impress when he was tried previously but Eng desperately need someone other than Billy now.

Hill has been hopeless for England, to be honest a lot of the time he looks like he's not that bothered. He's way more effective and determined for Exeter.

So what would your actual 15 and bench be?

I'll get back to you. Thinking about it now...

Sinkler LCD Marler
Itoje Launchbury
Curry Dombrandt Underhill

Randall, Smith, Slade, Manu, Watson, May, Malins

Bench
Stuart George Obano Lawes Simmonds Daly Spencer Ford

This may well change of course...

There'll be a decent team going on summer tour if it goes ahead

Something like:

1 West / Obano / Genge - he's been very poor this 6n
2 Barbaery
3 Hayes
4 Joe Launchbury (C) - Experienced Captain whos missed alot of games
5 George Martin
6 Ted Hill
7 Ben Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Randall
10 Smith / Simmonds
11 Radwan
12 Devoto
13 Lawrence
14 Odogwu / Cockasaniga - depending on his fitness and form.
15 Steward

Obviously a few caveats with team I've put up, will Manu be fit, will Marler return etc
Also likes of Odogwu and Cokansiga could well be in. Cokansiga only just back playing for Bath so see how he goes, Odogwu in squad all 6N and not a sniff. Should definitely have been in against Italy at least.

Oh and my choice for 9 now would be Care but can't see him there for RWC 2023.

What peoples thoughts on Genge. Ive been massively disappointed in him since he's come in to the England squad. He's totally failed to live up to his reputation...and looks now like he'll get done for using his elbows in the Ireland game.

Tom West is putting in some very impressive performances for Wasps..and of course Obano is a pocket powerhouse.

Mako may find himself being moved on soon.

Genge has been underwhelming to say the least. His scrummaging hasn't improved whilst he's fairly anonymous carrying and doesn't put in the big hits I was expecting either, I don't think he's got much of a future in the England side. I like a bit of needle but he almost seems to go out of his way to be contrary whether it's on the pitch or giving interviews.

Agree on Genge, scrum not great and not much else either. Looked a real prospect 2 years ago as well.
Mako shot his bolt along with his brother I'm afraid and playing in 2nd tier won't help cause. Time to go.

If you read any posts from Australians on Eddie Jones they say how it is , short term fix and no long term plan which is how its panning out . The team tactics are awful they seem to hate the ball so kick it away all the time obviously under orders from Eddie, his effect on the players coming in isn't good Hill brilliant for the Chiefs , looks all at sea in the England shirt ,likewise with Laurence and Odogwu not even played. These performances are predictable and aren't going to improve if he stays in the job. His disrespectful talk ,loyalty to out of form players and yesterdays tactics makes England a hard team to support.

Manu is a funny one. He's worth persevering with if we can get another RWC out of him but if we can't we have to learn to live without him.