SILLY SEASON TRANSFER RUMOURS 20/21

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mikey_dragon wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:Jac Morgan is leaving the Scarlets for the Ospreys to go and learn his trade off Tipuric. Big loss for the Scarlets but makes sense with Dan Davies, Josh Macelod, and James Davies still on the books. Jac looks like a future Welsh international so it might be a good move for Wales in the long run with the Ospreys finally starting to live up to their potential with a return to the top level of Europe given the players on their books.

Davis and Davies aren’t that good, McCleod is very good but has awful luck with injuries lately. Scarlets’ supporters can’t see why Jac is being let go. Boyde was another good 7 that they let go.

Ospreys are a long way off their potential if last night is anything to go by.

He isn't 'being let go', he's apparently an Ospreys fan and wants to leave despite the offer on the table.
Considering the conditions, the young players in key positions, and the momentum killing refereeing performance (for both sides), Ospreys came out of it with a victory which is what they needed to help secure champions cup rugby next season.
I think it would be better to judge them as of next season when, if all the murmurs are to be believed, we will have a higher proportion of games played with full strength sides.

king_carlos wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Just saw the headline that Tigers have signed Cowan-Dickie, had to read halfway down the page to find out it was Tom and not Luke

I had a similar double take to be honest! Tom is meant to be a solid hooker and I know a few who follow the Championship closely have been surprised he hasn't had more of a look in with Prem sides. Given Tigers have just linked up with Nottingham I'm a touch surprised that we didn't bring former Tiger Jake Farnworth back in short term but perhaps Tom is just rated as the better player.

Not sure Nottingham would have been overly happy if we'd borrowed their captain to sit in the stands for the first few rounds of the league leaving them with I think just two hookers one of whom is from our development squad.

Interesting to see Joe Simpson off to Saracens as cover. I know a few think that they're bound to be up challenging at the top but past that first team there are some less than inspiring players and this just shows that amazing depth (achieved through cheating) isnt there anymore. Good player though he is his kicking has never been a strong point so will be interesting to see the impact on the team.

i think Saracens have quite a number of talented young kids coming through, who will probably need time to bed in. So maybe this season they wont make a huge splash, but going forward they should. And im not a Saracens fan...i just think its silly to write them off too early.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i think Saracens have quite a number of talented young kids coming through, who will probably need time to bed in. So maybe this season they wont make a huge splash, but going forward they should. And im not a Saracens fan...i just think its silly to write them off too early.  

I have no doubt they will be competitive and will continue to manage their pipeline of talent well. The question is whether they can re-establish their previous dominance without the depth of seasoned, top notch squad players that their financial shenanigans allowed - and whether they will be able to keep all of their talent as they become more mature and valuable.

I'm not writing them off completely, they certainly have a good first team and no European distractions but a couple of injuries could deeply affect them.

They'll certainly be there or there about. I'd plump for top 4 but top 6 would be a safe bet I'd imagine. Too many winners in that squad, who will help lift the mediocre.

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i think Saracens have quite a number of talented young kids coming through, who will probably need time to bed in. So maybe this season they wont make a huge splash, but going forward they should. And im not a Saracens fan...i just think its silly to write them off too early.  

I have no doubt they will be competitive and will continue to manage their pipeline of talent well. The question is whether they can re-establish their previous dominance without the depth of seasoned, top notch squad players that their financial shenanigans allowed - and whether they will be able to keep all of their talent as they become more mature and valuable.

Well everyone else is also on a restricted budget aswell.

I think they'll be very competitive.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Well everyone else is also on a restricted budget aswell.

I think they'll be very competitive.

Competitive, yes. But can they be as dominant as they were when they didn't have a restricted budget?

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Well everyone else is also on a restricted budget aswell.

I think they'll be very competitive.

Competitive, yes. But can they be as dominant as they were when they didn't have a restricted budget?

Will any team ever be that dominant again? in a 5 year period.....4 x Premiership titles and 3 Heineken Cups, that's going to take some beating!

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i think Saracens have quite a number of talented young kids coming through, who will probably need time to bed in. So maybe this season they wont make a huge splash, but going forward they should. And im not a Saracens fan...i just think its silly to write them off too early.  

I have no doubt they will be competitive and will continue to manage their pipeline of talent well. The question is whether they can re-establish their previous dominance without the depth of seasoned, top notch squad players that their financial shenanigans allowed - and whether they will be able to keep all of their talent as they become more mature and valuable.

What underlined the Sarries dominance was the defensive line, the lineout, the scrum etc. The basics were always just so good and that defensive a better offensive weapon then some of their attacking options. You don't need superstars to put those things in place. They won't be at their prior levels but they'll be aiming for top 4 undoubtedly. The start to the season and international periods might him them a little harder than they used to but that defence should still be good enough to keep things close and pick them up some odd points.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i think Saracens have quite a number of talented young kids coming through, who will probably need time to bed in. So maybe this season they wont make a huge splash, but going forward they should. And im not a Saracens fan...i just think its silly to write them off too early.  

Could not agree more.

I am certainly am not writing them off I just would not be in the least bit surprised if they don't make the play offs.
Saying they are on a par with Tigers and Quins in the 5th to 7th positions in not writing them off.
I just think they will need a year to get up to speed.

I would also suspect they will be stronger in 22-23

geoff999rugby wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i think Saracens have quite a number of talented young kids coming through, who will probably need time to bed in. So maybe this season they wont make a huge splash, but going forward they should. And im not a Saracens fan...i just think its silly to write them off too early.  

Could not agree more.

I am certainly am not writing them off I just would not be in the least bit surprised if they don't make the play offs.
Saying they are on a par with Tigers and Quins in the 5th to 7th positions in not writing them off.
I just think they will need a year to get up to speed.

I would also suspect they will be stronger in 22-23

It's worth remembering Quins finished 4th place 14 points off the top of the table once you're in the playoffs it's very much game on. If Sarries can scrape into fourth place and then roll out a starting XV with all their big names then they've got every chance and let's face it not playing at home isn't going to worry them. Struggle into fourth and then roll out;

Vunipola, George, Koch
Itoje, Isiekwe
Wray, Vunipola, Earl
Van Zyl, Farrell
Tompkins, Lozowski
Daly, Goode, Maitland

Whoever they play would have to be on their absolute A game to live with that. I mean I hope Sarries don't get there for several reasons and not least because I hope Tigers do instead but credit where it's due Sarries will be in and around as Geoff says.

Outside of Chiefs and Bristol there's Sale, Saints, Quins, Tigers, Sarries and Bath (I bet I've missed one) who will all fancy getting into the playoffs. Someone's going to be disappointed. Sale I'd have put up higher but they look set to miss some of their Boks for the opening weeks.

The interesting thing with Sarries post salary cap fallout vs before is comparing their 2nd team rather than 1st teams.

2019/20 1st XV

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Koch 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.Wigglesworth 10.Farrell 11.Daly 12.Barritt 13.Tompkins 14.Williams 15.Goode

2021/22 1st XV

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Koch 4.Kpoku 5.Itoje 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.van Zyl 10.Farrell 11.Malins 12.Tompkins 13.Lozowski 14.Daly 15.Goode

Those are fairly similar. The '19/20 side is slightly stronger with Kruis at second row and Wigglesworth at 9 but both are extremely strong. Sanjay is obviously a loss to any side but Malins coming through so well is a very good replacement as a wing/fullback option.

2019/20 2nd XV

1.Carre 2.Singleton 3.Lamositele 4.Skelton 5.Kpoku 6.Hunter-Hill 7.Clark 8.Wray
9.Wigglesworth 10.Vunipola 11.Lewington 12.Taylor 13.Lozowski 14.Maitland 15.Malins

This is where Sarries were really taking the mick. Players of the callibre of Figallo, Woolstencroft, Dom Morris, Matt Gallagher and Rotmi Segun aren't even included in that side for instance on top of that.

2021/22 2nd XV

1.Barrington 2.Woolstencroft 3.Mawi 4.Hunter-Hill 5.Swinson 6.Wray 7.Reffell 8.Venter
9.de Haas 10.Vunipola 11.Lewington 12.Taylor 13.Morris 14.Segun 15.Maitland

The backline there is still strong. I really rate Morris and Segun in particular from the Sarries youngsters. That pack is incomparable to the 2nd choice forwards they had before the salary cap fallout though. Earl and Malins being in the England reckoning, Tompkins now in the Wales squad will hurt them during international windows too.

Their 1st XV could definitely challenge for the title if they get in the playoffs as others say but I'll be interested to see how they weather the Lions absentees, then the AIs, followed by the Six Nations. It could be a similar season to what Tigers often did under Cockers early in his tenure where we'd drag out feet through to around March then suddenly win a run of games, make the playoffs and have a near full strength side to challenge from there.

I think Bristol could struggle without Earl and Malins, both really good players. Aren't they also losing / have lost a Piatau?

KC wrote:2021/22 1st XV

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Koch 4.Kpoku 5.Itoje 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.van Zyl 10.Farrell 11.Malins 12.Tompkins 13.Lozowski 14.Daly 15.Goode

This is still a very good team. Has to be top 4, too many winners not to be.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think Bristol could struggle without Earl and Malins, both really good players. Aren't they also losing / have lost a Piatau?

KC wrote:2021/22 1st XV

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Koch 4.Kpoku 5.Itoje 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.van Zyl 10.Farrell 11.Malins 12.Tompkins 13.Lozowski 14.Daly 15.Goode

This is still a very good team. Has to be top 4, too many winners not to be.

Lions stand down: Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell and Daly (Koch will miss similar period for Rugby Championship)

Autumn internationals: Mako, George, Koch, Itoje, Earl, Billy, Farrell, Tompkins, Taylor (if fit usually picked by Scotland), Maitland, Daly, Malins

Six Nations: As above minus Koch

The bulk of that starting XV will miss most the season and they won't have the replacements from their second string that they used to. If they make top 4 they could easily win the playoffs but I'll be very interested to see how their youngsters (albeit many of them are very impressive youngsters) and weaker second string players fare when missing their stars.

They will still have outstanding defensive systems and coaching in place through McCall and his team so it will be very intriguing to fare across the whole season. I think they will definitely make top 6 for Champions Cup qualification and might sneak into an away playoff place with a late season burst.

Yeah I didn't consider who they'd be missing for the international period. I guess teams like Exeter are usually still good around then, and perhaps Bristol.

Re Bristol.

I think they are well covered to replace Malins with Ioan Lloyd developing brilliantly as a playmaker at wing or fullback in a similar ilk. Naulago also has a season of union under his belt so will just keep getting better I reckon.

Earl will be a loss. He's a superb back row and fitted the Bristol style very well with his pace and support running.

I really rate Siale Piutau and actually hoped Tigers might take a punt on him for a year when we needed some midfield depth prior to signing Juan Pablo Socino - another player I rate so no qualms there! He is 35 and had almost halved his game time in 2019/20 and 2020/21 compared to 2018/19 to protect his body. Personally I think Bristol have done some excellent succession planning there by bringing in Sam Bedlow and nurturing him into a very solid Premiership centre who can run useful crash ball lines and manage the defensive line. He should seamlessly replace the role Piutau filled without costing much - good work as ever by Lam in recruitment.

O'Conor and Radrada will remain their locked on first choice centre pairing. It's the most dangerous pairing in the league too so not a bad place to be!

Not a rumour but Duane Vermeulen has signed for Ulster.

Some signing

Ulster fans have a celebratory drink tonight. The big man is a great signing.

He probably has one good year left.

Mikey! Don't be like that! 6 months tops

I would not underestimate Bristol, even on international breaks etc, like a couple of members are doing above, because in Pat Lam they have a top coach and tbh, I don't think they will have a bad academy .

By the way, I'm Neutral :P.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Mikey! Don't be like that! 6 months tops

Duane is class but his best days are behind him. Wiese and Coetzee are now the better options IMO. Ulster didn't get a great deal here unless he was cheap.

Duane might surprise us all and keep playing well until he's 40, stranger things have happened.

Gabriel Ibitoye has joined Israel's new professional franchise the Tel Aviv Heat to compete in Rugby Europe's new club competition.

Estherhuizen extends his Quins contract. He's been superb signing for them. He just fits into that backline perfectly.

king_carlos wrote:Estherhuizen extends his Quins contract. He's been superb signing for them. He just fits into that backline perfectly.

When he can stay on the pitch!

We have signed Bath Centre Max Wright on loan for 3 months.

i didnt realise Tigers are looking to sign Kruis when his Japanese tour ends...?

That would be some signing for them!

GeordieFalcon wrote:We have signed Bath Centre Max Wright on loan for 3 months.

Much needed with the mini injury crisis. I wonder if it may lead to a permanent deal, he's a decent option and might kick on with game time, still young at 24.

Yeah you never know Sgt...clearly there for injury and international cover at the moment. 6'2 and 15.5 stone...hes a decent presence.

We shall see.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i didnt realise Tigers are looking to sign Kruis when his Japanese tour ends...?

That would be some signing for them!  

It's been rumoured for a wee while, GF. It would be an ideal signing for Tigers given we need an upgrade to our starting locks who can then mentor the impressive younger second rows at the club.

Lavanini hasn't been replaced like for like in terms of the salary cap space he'd occupy which makes me think it might be true. When Polota-Nau retired we didn't immediately use his cap space as the club were saving it for when Montoya became available. I think they might be doing similar with Kruis here, leaving some cap free in the short term to improve the squad significantly further down the line.

Well that would be quite a statement...

And as you say a great mentor for the likes of Martin, Chessum, Henderson etc...

Yep, I really hope it happens. It's no secret how highly I rate Kruis.

That said he has very strong ties to Sarries and London so this rumour growing could just be agent spin to get a better deal at his home club. I'd be surprised if Sarries had the cap space but who knows, they might be losing other big earners for next season that we don't yet know about.

I'm optimistic he might end up at Welford Road though I'd say that!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:We have signed Bath Centre Max Wright on loan for 3 months.

Much needed with the mini injury crisis. I wonder if it may lead to a permanent deal, he's a decent option and might kick on with game time, still young at 24.

Really good signing for Newcastle in my opinion. Surprised that Bath have let him go even for a short period given how young some of their other options are.

Simpson on loan to Bath
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58871332

Is Simpson becoming Gloucester's man on the inside and being loaned out to all opposition to learn all the secret moves?

Thomas Young us going to Cardiff for next season with a return to the Welsh national team seemingly as imminent as the AIs.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Thomas Young us going to Cardiff for next season with a return to the Welsh national team seemingly as imminent as the AIs.

A bit surprised by this even with Navidi and Faletau having injury issues. Tipuric is a stalwart, Wainwright a very good player and Moriarty whilst limited has had many good international performances. Then Botham and Basham.

That's before mentioning Jac Morgan who looks like he could be a spectacular player.

Isn't Tipuric in a zimmer frame yet?

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Thomas Young us going to Cardiff for next season with a return to the Welsh national team seemingly as imminent as the AIs.

A bit surprised by this even with Navidi and Faletau having injury issues. Tipuric is a stalwart, Wainwright a very good player and Moriarty whilst limited has had many good international performances. Then Botham and Basham.

That's before mentioning Jac Morgan who looks like he could be a spectacular player.

I guess Pivac has indicated to him that he's the style of player he's looking for. As with Eddie in England, I think we'll see an evolution in playing style and personnel across a lot of teams starting with the AIs and building towards RWC23

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isn't Tipuric in a zimmer frame yet?

He's 32. McCaw won a World Cup at nearly 35!

Come back you're the kind of talent we are looking at was what Costelow was allegedly told as well before finding himself a bit part player at a club side. Young can fill the gap for Pivac short term and then may find himself trying to carry the Cardiff pack with Navidi. The WRU do like using the carrot of international rugby to get players back at the regions even if that dangled carrot is never going to be in reach.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isn't Tipuric in a zimmer frame yet?

He's 32. McCaw won a World Cup at nearly 35!

I didn't realise he was only 32...thought he was older. Plus..McCaw is another level to Tipuric.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isn't Tipuric in a zimmer frame yet?

He's 32. McCaw won a World Cup at nearly 35!

I didn't realise he was only 32...thought he was older. Plus..McCaw is another level to Tipuric.

Did McCaw have the same injury history? That's often the most significant factor in longevity.

Regardless Sam, Tipuric isn't fit to lace McCaws boots.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Regardless Sam, Tipuric isn't fit to lace McCaws boots.

Very few are.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Come back you're the kind of talent we are looking at was what Costelow was allegedly told as well before finding himself a bit part player at a club side. Young can fill the gap for Pivac short term and then may find himself trying to carry the Cardiff pack with Navidi. The WRU do like using the carrot of international rugby to get players back at the regions even if that dangled carrot is never going to be in reach.

That's a similar carrot dangled to English players as well. I'm sure clubs will have been in the likes of Ben Morgans ear when he was approaching eligibility for Wales and I'm sure when contracts up there are similar things said. Ambition is a great motivation.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Come back you're the kind of talent we are looking at was what Costelow was allegedly told as well before finding himself a bit part player at a club side. Young can fill the gap for Pivac short term and then may find himself trying to carry the Cardiff pack with Navidi. The WRU do like using the carrot of international rugby to get players back at the regions even if that dangled carrot is never going to be in reach.

That's a similar carrot dangled to English players as well. I'm sure clubs will have been in the likes of Ben Morgans ear when he was approaching eligibility for Wales and I'm sure when contracts up there are similar things said. Ambition is a great motivation.

Underhill was tempted back from his study excursion to Wales fairly swiftly as well.

I just hope Young gets a fair run of games over the next couple of years to show what he's about.

Yes I agree. Said in the Wales thread though that I think this move has come a few years too late. Still a good player but not quite at the heights he was 4 years or so back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes I agree. Said in the Wales thread though that I think this move has come a few years too late. Still a good player but not quite at the heights he was 4 years or so back.

Two years ago no region even offered him a contract so he renewed for Wasps and became an international outcast which is madness really. I do agree at 29 he's just starting to pass his peak but he's still good, the game winning offload at the weekend was pretty spectacular.