SILLY SEASON TRANSFER RUMOURS 20/21

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mikey_dragon wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:Jac Morgan is leaving the Scarlets for the Ospreys to go and learn his trade off Tipuric. Big loss for the Scarlets but makes sense with Dan Davies, Josh Macelod, and James Davies still on the books. Jac looks like a future Welsh international so it might be a good move for Wales in the long run with the Ospreys finally starting to live up to their potential with a return to the top level of Europe given the players on their books.

Davis and Davies aren’t that good, McCleod is very good but has awful luck with injuries lately. Scarlets’ supporters can’t see why Jac is being let go. Boyde was another good 7 that they let go.

Ospreys are a long way off their potential if last night is anything to go by.

He isn't 'being let go', he's apparently an Ospreys fan and wants to leave despite the offer on the table.
Considering the conditions, the young players in key positions, and the momentum killing refereeing performance (for both sides), Ospreys came out of it with a victory which is what they needed to help secure champions cup rugby next season.
I think it would be better to judge them as of next season when, if all the murmurs are to be believed, we will have a higher proportion of games played with full strength sides.

(Again, by way of comparison the Saracens judgement highlighted that they didn't just pull the "property loans" dodge, but they also had several players who had image rights deals on the side for which they were paid for little to no work. The link was a little easier given that one of Wray's kids ran the image rights firm, IIRC, but there was also no direct financial connection with the club as far as I can recall, only a familial one)

Suggestions are that WIM made payments to the players and a 3rd party attached to Tigers made payments to WIM (backhanders if you will). If this is the case, it's rather underhanded.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Suggestions are that WIM made payments to the players and a 3rd party attached to Tigers made payments to WIM (backhanders if you will). If this is the case, it's rather underhanded.

Yup, but even that isn't necessarily relevant to the case. It only matters that the players got contracts with WIM because and only because they were employed by Tigers.

Now, I guess that if there were some insanely rich nuisance fanboy who approached all your players independently with sweet, sweet deals to hang out at his pad or play golf with his mates once in a while, then you might get away with it, especially if you'd tried to tell him "don't do that or we could have salary cap problems". But if there's enough of a hint that Tigers were introducing players to WIM, or just that Tigers' signings mysteriously got WIM contracts contemporaneously with their Tigers ones, then the SCM would be within their powers to decide that the cap had been breached.

My understanding has always been that clubs can put players in contact with companies that they can earn from their image rights through.

A significant reason that many sponsors bother sponsoring sports clubs is so they can get players to turn up to corporate events for instance. So a sponsor paying a company that manages image right deals for players appearing at an event wouldn't be unusual at all. It's common place at all clubs.

What would be an issue is if Tigers are guaranteeing certain players that they will make those appearances and receive certain income when they sign. Or if players are getting appearance fees for work they didn't even attend. Or if those payments are way outside the market value for such work. Or if Tigers are themselves involved in paying those players for said appearances.

The SCM does have a lot of scope to decide what they consider salary in these instances though. From the old regs there's a list of about 16 different factors the SCM can take into account where they state what factors will make it "more likely" and "'less likely" for sponsorship endorsements, merchandising or other individual arrangements between a player (or party connected to that player) and any connected party of the club to be considered salary under the cap.

The regs have been rewritten since the season these allegations are from as some of the Myners report recommendations have since been implemented as well.

Just to add to that.

Importantly, clubs must declare arrangements they help setup whether they believe it will be deemed as salary under the cap or not. So if Tigers put players in touch with WIM it wouldn't necessarily be unusual or mean that those payments from WIM to players are deemed salary by the SCM. Tigers would have had to declare those deals to the SCM under the regs though. We don't yet know whether they were declared at the time or not. That will be significant.

I suppose the thing about the investigation into the alleged salary cap violation(s) is the lack of transparency in the process allows some people's imagination to run wild about possible offenses.  And, of course, the sanctions.  Additionally, the Premiership's perceived poor record with salary cap violations in the past, prior to Saracens, enables the lack of transparency to give other people the idea there is no 'there' there, and they start defending what has not been proven or even documented or charged formally.  And everything gets out of control.

On the other hand, there cannot be an investigation completely open because if no crime or violation was found then it can tarnish reputations or credibility.  

Not sure the right answer except that if the Premiership dealt with this kind of thing properly in the past I doubt we would be discussing this today.  

I have to wonder about the leak, too:  Is it someone (or some people) with an agenda or some kind?  Or just really sloppy by the Premiership?  Or just society today when people have no idea how to keep quiet.

Interesting thread collating all the rumours and leaks from "sources".

Talks of a possible overspend of a £100k, tigers are adamant they have done nothing wrong. Currently no links between 3rd contract from Wim to the club.

https://twitter.com/rollingmaulpod/status/1478789489434705922?t=Sp7ILHa6VUXyOBjE8scJqg&s=19

As stated in that well put together summation a £100k overspend even if in each season under investigation would be well under the threshold for points deduction and nowhere near the ballpark of what Sarries did.

There was already a significant difference to the latest Sarries investigation as well given we already knew Sarries broke the cap significantly for two seasons prior to the cap increasing as they refused to open their books and tried to challenge the caps legality under competition law hence were named publicly as one of the two clubs flaunting the cap.

As Tigers are complying with the investigation it will hopefully be done and dusted much quicker than the Sarries saga at any rate.

Munster apparently making a move for Sarries outside centre Dom Morris. He's Ireland qualified as well.

Morris is a very good centre in my opinion with room to keep improving. He has a very rounded all round game already. Sarries having Lozowski at 13 means his starts can be limited at Sarries. As an England fan I'd be sad to see Morris move.

With Mike Haley and Matt Gallagher already there it's a route of recruitment that Munster have already done well from recently.

king_carlos wrote:Munster apparently making a move for Sarries outside centre Dom Morris. He's Ireland qualified as well.

Morris is a very good centre in my opinion with room to keep improving. He has a very rounded all round game already. Sarries having Lozowski at 13 means his starts can be limited at Sarries. As an England fan I'd be sad to see Morris move.

With Mike Haley and Matt Gallagher already there it's a route of recruitment that Munster have already done well from recently.

Unfortunately Matt has barely played due to injuries and a backlog of 15s in Munster. I'd fully expect him to leave Munster once his contract is up, I'm sure there are plenty of clubs in England keeping tabs on him.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Munster apparently making a move for Sarries outside centre Dom Morris. He's Ireland qualified as well.

Morris is a very good centre in my opinion with room to keep improving. He has a very rounded all round game already. Sarries having Lozowski at 13 means his starts can be limited at Sarries. As an England fan I'd be sad to see Morris move.

With Mike Haley and Matt Gallagher already there it's a route of recruitment that Munster have already done well from recently.

Unfortunately Matt has barely played due to injuries and a backlog of 15s in Munster. I'd fully expect him to leave Munster once his contract is up, I'm sure there are plenty of clubs in England keeping tabs on him.

It was just the one shoulder injury wasn't it for Gallagher? It kept him out for much of last season though.

Munster have good back three players though you're right of course. Zebo, Earls and Conway from the Ireland squad. Healy and Daly on top of that.

Zebo, Conway and Earls are all over 30 though, Gallagher is 5 years younger (at least) then them. He looked good at Saracens I'd be surprised if the shuffled him off already. He could still make a good impression in the second half of this season if he's fit.

Dom Morris would be a good fit for Munster, he's the type of physical and hard working player they like. As KC says good all rounder. Be a loss for Sarries, especially if Lozowski ends up back in the England side. Mind you Tompkins will be away during the 6N so there could be chances for him them. Taylor can't go on forever with his injury priors.

Taylor is already out until March and is 32. Unfortunately for him and Scotland, he just could not stay healthy enough. I would be surprised if he keeps going too much longer.

Didn't Munster want Fekitoa too? Rumour is that his heart is in the south of France.

WOL scouring England for WQ players and linking them with Dragons, Sean Lonsdale was mentioned.

From the BBC, Cardiff confirm signing of Liam Williams. Hmm, not sure what to think. This means McNicholl is staying at Scarlets I suppose - now he can negotiate more money. Below these two however, the wingers at Scarlets are very average. Cardiff could have put Josh Adams at 15 if necessary.

Good back 3 for Cardiff:
Adams - Williams - Lane.
Too bad about their soft forward pack.

Yes, Liam Williams to Cardiff confirmed. I was surprised with the rumour when announced a week or two back as I thought LW was a Scarlet through and through (West is Best, and all that jazz). However, I wonder if he’s fallen out of favour a little or is not getting on with the new coaches (e.g. Peel)? The Beeb report that he has only played 4 times in 2 years due to COVID, injury, suspension, etc. That’s really not a good return for a high earner on the payroll, although Scarlets would have only been paying 20% of his salary I assume?

Still, good signing for Cardiff if they can get a load of games out of him. Will be good to see him on the artificial surface at Cardiff as it seems to promote good running rugby. As Mikey says they’ve got a decent back 3 now, and not a bad backline overall. Just need to beef up the pack (front 5 mainly) and I would like to think they could challenge for the top 4 or 5 in the URC.

Yep that's a third signing from DY that I don't understand. The real issue for the Blues is in the tight 5. They are at least 3 players of quality short in that area. Not sure what is his plan with so many opensides to pick from. Botham just can't be seeing a lot of game time next year. Seems a bit strange unless someone on their books is leaving and hasn't been confirmed yet. I also dont think playing 2 opensides in the backrow help them with a big problem they have in terms of ball carriers. Falatau's injury record the last few years has been dire. If he can stay fit for a season he will have been a good signing but given his record I doubt it. Ratti has been playing and carrying really well for them.

Sure Williams in the backline is a upgrade on what they have but as I said they need to be spending a fair bit of money in the tight 5 if they really are going to compete in the URC.

On the plus side if I was Ryan I would make it my mission to go after Ratti who will no doubt see his chances in the team plummet. I'd probably go after Cabango as well.

It's similar to Dai's team at Wasps; good backs and back-row, average front 5. They played good rugby but usually fell short. Surely Cardiff are letting go of Robinson and Boyde now. I'd wave on Turnbull as well, such an overrated average player. Also the Screech signing is starting to look a bit silly now.

I rate Ratti as a decent No.8 but if we are supposedly going after Lonsdale then I hope it is as a back-row signing, because that isn't the type of lock we require. Signing Lonsdale from Exeter as a flanker negates the requirement for Ratti when we're already well stocked in the back-row. I don't think we need Cabango, not unless we permanently shift Rosser to 13.

No but Cabango would get more gametime with us than Cardiff the next 18 months. There's a reason why the regions are missing out on talented players to English clubs - because we don't give them any exposure. It's a trend we need to reverse in Wales on risk starting to see more of them head to the Premiership for chances which then makes them really hard to get back.

I hope we don't go after Lonsdale. Going after their Welsh Academy players would be a better long term solution. I'm sure for what we would be paying Lonsdale we could get Tshiunza and Jenkins which would solve some long term lock and back row options for us.

Welshmushroom wrote:No but Cabango would get more gametime with us than Cardiff the next 18 months.  There's a reason why the regions are missing out on talented players to English clubs - because we don't give them any exposure.  It's a trend we need to reverse in Wales on risk starting to see more of them head to the Premiership for chances which then makes them really hard to get back.

I hope we don't go after Lonsdale.  Going after their Welsh Academy players would be a better long term solution.  I'm sure for what we would be paying Lonsdale we could get Tshiunza and Jenkins which would solve some long term lock and back row options for us.

I think we are okay at wing, unless we lose Holmes... Why not try for LRZ?

Yeah there isn't a lot I know about Lonsdale, but doesn't seem like the type of player us or Wales need right now. Definitely agree on making an advance on their Welsh players in Tshiunza and Jenkins.

It looks a good bit of business from a Scarlets point of view, Williams has barely played, in a position that doesn't have a huge amount of influence on a game. He lives in Cardiff I believe, so maybe everything just worked for him in terms of a change.

Scarlets have a decent cover of back 3 players, I wonder whether Patchell will be used there more as well.

I do agree with Cardiff's recruitment being odd in not addressing the front row, but I guess every team is looking for good props with not many being out there, so maybe they are just having to make do and invest in their existing crop.

Don't know about not having an influence on the game. Credit where credits due, L Williams is a good fullback and it is noticeable when a team lacks competence in the kicking game particularly with the way the game is being played now.

L Williams will be a good upgrade over Matthew Morgan and shouldn't cost much more than Amos if he is on a central contract. Assuming Harries and Fish are off, they only have 5 wings/FBs listed on wiki including Adams and L Williams. Probably could do with a couple of youngsters like the academy player Carbango to fill in the gaps.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:No but Cabango would get more gametime with us than Cardiff the next 18 months.  There's a reason why the regions are missing out on talented players to English clubs - because we don't give them any exposure.  It's a trend we need to reverse in Wales on risk starting to see more of them head to the Premiership for chances which then makes them really hard to get back.

I hope we don't go after Lonsdale.  Going after their Welsh Academy players would be a better long term solution.  I'm sure for what we would be paying Lonsdale we could get Tshiunza and Jenkins which would solve some long term lock and back row options for us.

I think we are okay at wing, unless we lose Holmes... Why not try for LRZ?

Yeah there isn't a lot I know about Lonsdale, but doesn't seem like the type of player us or Wales need right now. Definitely agree on making an advance on their Welsh players in Tshiunza and Jenkins.

A serious question....not having a dig. Would you prefer for LRZ be playing back in Wales or staying in the England for his development?

I think LRZ is good enough to flourish in any environment, even the Newcastle Geordies (or whatever they’re called). No point in us signing him unless we get another 10 new players tbh, as he wouldn’t see much ball.

Not sure he'd get in ahead of Radwan Mikey

From Steffan Thomas on Twitter.

EXCLUSIVE: Scarlets set to sign former All Blacks back-five forward Vaea Fifita from Wasps. That’s a serious statement of intent.

Big blow for Wasps. The reduced cap bitting again. Wasps are reportedly losing Fekitoa as well.

Any decent head coaches looking for a job. Hopefully one will be needed soon.

Blimey Fifitia has only been at Wasps 5 minutes and he's already off. Cracking deal for Scarlets he's a very good player and will suit their mobile style down to the ground.

South Wales Argus say that Max Clark is possibly moving from Bath to Dragons.

Max Clark the centre? That would be a good signing for us, and he’s WQ so no doubt Pivac has been in his ear. He should be better than Tompkins.

Yeah him.

Clark is no where near the class of Tompkins. How you've managed to butcher his integration into international rugby is a thing of wonder.

Max Clark is a physical club man centre. He'll be a good acquisition for Dragons but isn't likely to worry the international selectors. 

Tompkins in the right set up can be international class, I know it didn't really work for him at Dragons but a move to another region could see his Sarries form.

Apparently Radwan and Blamire are having peace talks with Falcons after not paying them their England match day fees. Any club in the Prem would leap at either of those guys if that goes south!

king_carlos wrote:Apparently Radwan and Blamire are having peace talks with Falcons after not paying them their England match day fees. Any club in the Prem would leap at either of those guys if that goes south!

Just noticed this is already being discussed on the Falcons thread, apologies.

If its true KC then the whole lot of the managing ream want sacked

It also makes me wonder of we have serious financial issues again...Seymore Kurdi is bankrolling us almost on his own

GeordieFalcon wrote:If its true KC then the whole lot of the managing ream want sacked

It also makes me wonder of we have serious financial issues again...Seymore Kurdi is bankrolling us almost on  his own

If it's dragged on long enough to have leaked out then presumably more than an oversight in accountancy. Not great news.

The reduced cap should help sides with lower budgets for the next couple of seasons at least.

Rumours that Tigers are looking at Levani Botia.

Botia is a blockbuster player but has needed his game time carefully managed by La Rochelle for a few years now to get the best out of him. He's played a minimum 12 and maximum of 18 games a season for the last 4 seasons. His style of play will do that to a blokes body by 32-years-old. Apparently La Rochelle aren't looking to renew his deal, presumably for that reason.

For the right price he could be a really good signing for Tigers. He'd need managing carefully but we could do with another hard carrier in the backs outside of Nadolo. Jaco Taute (Munster vice when he joined Tigers) and Kobus van Wyk (tearing it up with the Canes when he signed) are two players expected to move on who signed on decent contracts but have hardly featured this season for different reasons so there should be room for some recruitment in the backs.

My priority in the centres would be retaining Kelly (in contract anyway), Moroni and Scott. If we can get Botia in addition to them he'd be a really good signing though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Clark is no where near the class of Tompkins. How you've managed to butcher his integration into international rugby is a thing of wonder.

He can’t defend, by all means wait 3 years and have him back. I know you’re his biggest fan.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Max Clark is a physical club man centre. He'll be a good acquisition for Dragons but isn't likely to worry the international selectors. 

Tompkins in the right set up can be international class, I know it didn't really work for him at Dragons but a move to another region could see his Sarries form.

We’ll wait and see. The only reason he could be even considering joining us if for international selection. He doesn’t need to do much/anything to get a handful of caps, just ask Bradley Roberts.

That would be interesting to see. Cardiff would just have him playing 13. Ospreys are crying out for a good attacking player but that 10/12 channel wouldn’t be good in defence. Tompkins does well for Sarries but they have their house in order.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Clark is no where near the class of Tompkins. How you've managed to butcher his integration into international rugby is a thing of wonder.

He can’t defend, by all means wait 3 years and have him back. I know you’re his biggest fan.

Famously Saracens pick players who can't defend. It's their number 1 priority. But yes the guys class I'd have him back straight away.your best midfielder.

Sarries seem to get the best out of anyone so fair play to them. We’ve seen Tompkins can’t defend and struggles with 1v1’s in pretty much every game he’s played for Wales - there’s nobody else to blame for that. North is probably our best midfielder, Halaholo another.

Nah. Play Williams at 12, Tompkins in his better position of 13. Obviously you have Rowlands as the main man at lock. There's 3 positions sorted.

The issue might be that Dragons and Wales tend to deploy Tompkins at 13 whereas Sarries use him at 12. That and Sarries defence is like an ultra blitz that isn't really replicated by anyone else. Might take him time to acclimatise to a different defensive structure to what he's spent all his pro career playing and a position where positioning is more crucial, 12 is all about being connected but 13 far more difficult.

Tompkins is a 13 Sam. Only until relatively recently he was moved to 12 at Saracens.

Wales have shifted him and partnered him with a lot of players though. Not what you'd say is ideal.

I thought he was predominantly a 12, he does have good ball skills. I think we’ve only seen him once at 12 with North outside him and that centre partnership was pretty good.

Tompkins was a 13 for most his age grade and early Sarries days. He covered 12 but played more 13, with Barritt nailed on at 12 and Bosch usually shifted to 12 if Barritt unavailable.

When Lozowski moved to centre they initially played him at 12 with Tompkins at 13. That shifted though and they have looked a much better partnership the other way round. Tompkins is thought of as a very good defensive organiser and communicator by Sarries with Lozowski good at using his pace to cover outside breaks from 13.

Tompkins is a 12 at Sarries when full strength now. I think it's his best position as well. He's not quite quick enough for 13 IMO.

The Wales midfield and attacking game plan has been in flux whilst Tompkins has played. That has led to little continuity in attack or defence. Not ideal for a centre coming into international rugby. I certainly rate him higher than Jonny Williams (another centre I rate to be fair) and a lot lot higher than Clark. Clark looked very talented when he broke through with Ford at 10 and prime JJ at 13. Reality of injury stalling his progress though is that even an injury ridden and struggling Bath side have him way down their pecking order. If Clark played for Wales it'd be a depressing indictment of the centres coming through the regions.

I like Tompkins, he is a good hard working player in defense and is a solid attacker in space. He is hurt by being effective at 12 and 13 and not having a defined position where he is clearly 1st choice. I think he peaks as an average international player and is probably the weakest 13 of the traditional 5 Nations when he starts, but not sure Wales have a better option at 13 for the next 2-4 years with Davies (almost 34 with a number of injuries on the clock) and North (soon to be 30 with miles and injuries on the clock) on the decline. Maybe Josh Adams could be adapted considering the wing options (LRZ, Lloyd, L Williams, McNicholl)? Michael Collins could find his feet?

Max Clark seems a good 12 who can't stay fit. J Williams and Halaholo are a similar level so not sure he moves the needle for Wales. Still, good for Wales to have options and would be a quality starter for the Dragons.