Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

I think the two Welsh wingers Josh Adams and LRZ are in pole position for those positions based on this 6N.

After the Ireland v Scotland game today I think a few Scots have played their way out of the side while a few Irish have either given themselves a great opportunity or have likewise booked their place on tour.

For the Irish, Henshaw is guaranteed to tour. Iain Henderson might sneak in again as a back row/second row option, as might Beirne. Both were excellent. With Connor Murray on the bench and Rhys Webb out of the picture (two starting 9s in 2017) Gibson-Park will surely tour as the structured, box kicking 9 option. He had a good game today. And Connors at openside has really put his hand up.

For Scotland, Jonny Gray has now had two poor games v Wales and Ireland and that should end his hopes, which were always reliant on showing he could physically dominate an opponent which he did v England but hasn't repeated. Ritchie won't tour, with someone like Connors possibly being the beneficiary, and Price and Russell seem highly unlikely to go as well unless as possible injury call ups (they shouldn't be near the test team). Hogg and Watson are nailed on in the squad, possibly both make the test side, but I don't think there are too many showings from Scotland that will dramatically increase their percentage of the squad from previous tours. It'll be 5 or 6 Scots at most.

LordDowlais wrote:I think the two Welsh wingers Josh Adams and LRZ are in pole position for those positions based on this 6N.

Watson for me but all 3 should tour. Duhan VDM has done ok but isn't helped by Scotland's performances. He won't be far away though.

I could see Johnny May missing out.

Ireland fan here.

In terms of pure inside centres Henshaw looks in pole position right now. My feeling is however Gatland will shift Farrell or Davies there.

Ireland may have lost their opening two games but you could argue their pack has played well in all four of them. Tadhg Beirne has been class for years and this run in the Ireland team he's getting is well overdue. James Ryan was weirdly forgotten about after only playing 20 minutes in the first 2 rounds but the way Ireland's lineout went today was a timely reminder of his quality. Henderson too is having a good tournament although he tends to be a bit hot and cold.

Gibson-Park I'm not a huge fan of, I think there are several more impressive 9s in Ireland atm but I will admit my judgment is coloured by the fact he's about as Irish as Auckland Harbour. Obviously Gatland won't give a shiny shyte about that.

Henshaw should be a starter.

Finn Russell his game today was very poor Jonny Sexton was better but not that much better. so regards of the ten shirt? it is still up fpr grabs.

I still think it will be a toss up who the ten will be. Russell, Sexton, Ford. Farrell, Biggar, Sheedy?

My problem for the Lions is who will be the 9?

theslosty wrote:Ireland fan here.

In terms of pure inside centres Henshaw looks in pole position right now. My feeling is however Gatland will shift Farrell or Davies there.

Ireland may have lost their opening two games but you could argue their pack has played well in all four of them. Tadhg Beirne has been class for years and this run in the Ireland team he's getting is well overdue. James Ryan was weirdly forgotten about after only playing 20 minutes in the first 2 rounds but the way Ireland's lineout went today was a timely reminder of his quality. Henderson too is having a good tournament although he tends to be a bit hot and cold.

Gibson-Park I'm not a huge fan of, I think there are several more impressive 9s in Ireland atm but I will admit my judgment is coloured by the fact he's about as Irish as Auckland Harbour. Obviously Gatland won't give a shiny shyte about that.

The centre pairing will all be decided on whether Tuilagi is fit. If he is, he's 12 for the tests that he is fit for. Simple as that. If he's not, which is more likely, then there needs to be an alternative approach. Bundee Aki would have been the likely option to tour in Tuilagi's place but, like with Connor Murray, Andy Farrell has basically made sure that won't happen. Henshaw is the only obvious 12 but he's still capable of going missing in his games - he missed a big tackle on Duhan VDM from a set piece which led to Scotland's second try, just moments after he gave VDM the big one after he smashed him in to touch. He's in the form of his life though and finally living up to the promise. Ringrose won't be far away but is a bit hit and miss. For me, Davies isn't in contention, he's just not played enough rugby and isn't showing form. I think Henshaw, Owen Farrell, and one other (Tuilagi? Johnny Williams?) will be the test options for 12. There are more options at 13.

The Irish pack has done well. Beirne is a huge blot of Schmidt's legacy and a sign of how little he valued ability/talent over a player's ability to play Schmidtball. I'm not much of a fan of James Ryan in the loose but given that Itoje and AWJ are the leading options so far then you can see why you'd balance that out with a pure lineout option. You then have work rate and nous from AWJ, aggression and disruption from Itoje, and a lineout specialist in Ryan. That should be the 3 lock options, maybe with AWJ on the bench if he isn't captain. But I do like Henderson as well and I think he's proven his worth over a J Gray or Cummings (who isn't far away from a place on tour despite not being a household name and for me played better than Gray today).

I don't like picking foreigners either but that's the way it goes. I mean Scotland's backline had fewer Scots than non-Scots today (5 non Scots to 2 Scots) so it's hard not to pick these players for the Lions. The 9 options are strange as there are so many good players but so few are putting their hand up. The Welsh have about 5 who could tour but no one is making a claim to be the best. That leaves Youngs as the front runner, despite his critics, and I can see Gibson-Park being the kind of 9 Gatland likes. Particularly if he picks a 10 like Ford. It's a tour against the Boks, we have to remember, so kicking and control will be key. The third 9 will come from Wales, probably Gareth Davies but it could be Tomos Williams or Hardy as well. Connor Murray won't tour and no Scottish 9 is in with a chance. Price has an outside shot of being a late call up but that's it, he's just too loose for Gatland anyway, and he was poor today along with Russell and is far too error prone.

majesticimperialman wrote:Finn Russell his game today was very poor Jonny Sexton  was better but not that much better. so regards  of the ten shirt? it is still up fpr grabs.

I still think it will be a toss up who the ten will be. Russell, Sexton, Ford. Farrell, Biggar, Sheedy?

My problem for the Lions is who will be the 9?

I can't believe it but I think Sheedy is actually in with a chance. Unbelievable to think that 12 months ago but then Lions tours always throw up some players who are in the right place at the right time.

For me as it stands.

10: Ford, Farrell, and then one of Biggar, Sexton, Russell, and Sheedy. With Farrell covering or maybe starting at 12 that will influence who he picks. If he sees Farrell as a 10 then he might go for Sheedy or Russell as they're unlikely to play in the tests. If he sees Farrell as a 12 then that makes Biggar or Sexton more likely.

9: Youngs, a Welshman (pick one), and Gibson Park.

If we have Youngs as starting scrum half then we are in serious trouble. I would start Connor Murray, and Gareth Davies as back up.

Also, Farrell should be nowhere near the 10 shirt, or Ford. It's still Sexton for me, with Biggar on the bench, Sheedy as the midweek 10.

Connor Murray can't even start for Ireland but he can for the Lions? Strange.

whatahitson wrote:Connor Murray can't even start for Ireland but he can for the Lions? Strange.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

LordDowlais wrote:

whatahitson wrote:Connor Murray can't even start for Ireland but he can for the Lions? Strange.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Every dog has its day.

No way on earth will George Ford tour, he just isn't a Gats type of player (hopefully I have to eat my hat and be wrong). Biggar would be my front runner at 10, competing with Farrell. Do nitbthink Farrell's form is good enough, but feel he will go.

LondonTiger wrote:No way on earth will George Ford tour, he just isn't a Gats type of player (hopefully I have to eat my hat and be wrong). Biggar would be my front runner at 10, competing with Farrell. Do nitbthink Farrell's form is good enough, but feel he will go.

We'll have to revisit this in the summer (if the tour goes ahead ). Everything I'm seeing points towards Ford at 10 for the tests.

"I don’t know whether I could rattle off a name. Potential captains? Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Ken Owens, Alun Wyn Jones, Maro Itoje, James Ryan, Justin Tipuric, Conor Murray, Johnny Sexton, Owen Farrell, George Ford, Jonathan Davies, Stuart Hogg, Stuart McInally, Fraser Brown – I don’t know. "

LordDowlais wrote:If we have Youngs as starting scrum half then we are in serious trouble. I would start Connor Murray, and Gareth Davies as back up.

Also, Farrell should be nowhere near the 10 shirt, or Ford. It's still Sexton for me, with Biggar on the bench, Sheedy as the midweek 10.

Youngs was the match of Dupont yesterday, don't write him off too early. If he continues in that form he is a match for any other British or Irish 9

I actually made a list of players based on numbers from the last tour last weekend.

After the games this weekend a few of them would change. Most notably Jonny Gray wouldn't be included and I'd probably also give a few of the Irish forwards more of a chance.

This might change after next week's games as well of course. A big game from England against Ireland could be decisive for their hopes of touring.

In brackets will be the number of players per position who toured in 2017.

This is based on a 40 man squad. 22 forwards, 18 backs.

LH Props: Vunipola, Wyn Jones, Healy. Sutherland/Genge if 4 (3 + 1 called up as extra cover).
Hookers:  George, Owens, Cowan-Dickie. Rob Herring first reserve/if 4 tour (3 with 1 extra called up as cover).
TH Props: Furlong, Sinckler, Porter. Fagerson/Francis if 4 (3 + 1 cover)
Second Rows: AWJ, Itoje, Ryan (4).
Hybrid Forwards: Henderson, Beirne (1 + 1 cover). Lawes if 3.
Flankers/8s: Tipuric, Billy Vunipola, Faletau, Stander, Underhill, Navidi, Watson, Curry (8). Connors/Doris/Ritchie reserves.

Scrum Halves: Youngs, G Davies, Gibson-Park (3 + 1 cover). T Williams/K Hardy if 4.
Fly Halves: Ford, Biggar, Sexton (3 + 1 cover). Russell if 4/Farrell tours as centre.
Centres: Tuilagi (if fit), Henshaw, J Williams (3). Bundee Aki if Tuilagi is injured. Redpath/J Davies/Ringrose if 4.
Hybrid Inside Backs: Slade, O Farrell (2)
Wingers: Watson, LRZ, May (2). Duhan VDM/Maitland if 4.
Hybrid Outside Backs: North, Daly, Liam Williams (2)
Full Backs: Hogg (2) Halfpenny if 2.

By nation: England (16), Wales (12), Ireland (10), Scotland (2)



Several injuries have proved costly. Tuilagi, Redpath, Brown, McInally and many more are all question marks whereas if they were fit to play this six nations they could well have booked a spot in the squad by now.

The outside backs are very hard to predict as well. Particularly the wingers and centres. Full backs seem easy picks, only two real options there - Liam Williams and Hogg. The wingers and centres probably follow from that, particularly if Tuilagi isn't fit. Tuilagi is one of maybe only 3 or 4 players who will tour even if they don't play a game between now and the tour itself.

I don't feel confident on the centre options. Only Henshaw has played his way in to the tour and Tuilagi is a unique situation for the Lions/NH. Everything else seems relatively settled and hard to change at this point barring injury so I wouldn't expect too many changes from this apart from perhaps some of the last in line losing out for the first reserves depending on how Gatland sees it/form. For instance Genge is a great player but in bad form so maybe Sutherland goes instead (Marler would tour based on ability but has ruled himself out it seems).

What is also surprising is there are so few Welsh players given Gatland's history and also the fact that Wales will be the best performing home nation. That reflects their awful form in 2020 and also the quality England have across the park and Ireland have in their pack. Sadly Scotland's two defeats and the style of rugby they play means so many of their 'nearly' men are going to miss out again. At present I have 2 Scots which seems unbelievable but the competition is fierce for Gray, van der Merwe, and several other positions where Scotland might fancy their chances of representation. Perhaps Redpath will be Scotland's best hope of a bolter.

Another small thing in Henshaw's favour is that if South Africa line up de Allende at 12 then Henshaw has experience of playing against and beating his opposite number (Leinster vs Munster interpros). There should be no fear factor with him, whereas some of the English players, particularly in the tight 5, could still be carrying scars from RWC 2019. Perhaps I'm wrong though and they will use that as a motivational tool.

On a more general note, I wouldn't get into the business of ruling players in or out at this stage. This 6N is obviously crucial to selection but we're still a few months off (if the tour goes ahead on time) and there is plenty of time for form and sentiment to change. 'Form is temporary, class is permanent' is such a cliche but it's also true to an extent. The likes of Jamie George, Itoje, Jonny Gray, POM, Farrell, Jonathan Davies, Stockdale etc who are all struggling to various degrees will come good again. The exceptions are in my opinion Murray and Sexton who I think have physically lost something (the latter due to age, the former due to injury).

Agreed I mentioned that about Henshaw v de Allende elsewhere and have said it for a while. He has upped his game this season and maybe that played a part knowing there is a Lions tour at the end of the season.

I think it's more been that he's finally had a good run of games without injury. Could say that for a lot of players mind. Perhaps also Farrell has given him a little more freedom whereas Schmidt boxed him in a little bit as a hard-running 12 - many Ireland fans were a bit frustrated at this because he began his career as a very exciting 13/15.

Ringrose didn't have his best game today but I still think he's a classy outside centre, Ireland's attack hasn't been great at the best of times but it's even more blunt when he is absent. The issue for him is the Lions competition is tougher at 13 than it is at 12 and he doesn't have the positional versatility that other centres offer.

theslosty wrote:I think it's more been that he's finally had a good run of games without injury. Could say that for a lot of players mind. Perhaps also Farrell has given him a little more freedom whereas Schmidt boxed him in a little bit as a hard-running 12 - many Ireland fans were a bit frustrated at this because he began his career as a very exciting 13/15.

Ringrose didn't have his best game today but I still think he's a classy outside centre, Ireland's attack hasn't been great at the best of times but it's even more blunt when he is absent. The issue for him is the Lions competition is tougher at 13 than it is at 12 and he doesn't have the positional versatility that other centres offer.

I think he's dropped a few kg's ,he has dangerous pace again where before he had power but couldn't quite break through tackles. I think he's the best centre in Ireland now and that's at 12 or 13 ,he is a fantastic defender both reading the game and tackling, he can kick effectively, is great in the air. His passing is pretty good but probably the area he has most room for improvement.

Most of the class is permanent Players, have aage against them and their form is slipping.

majesticimperialman wrote:Most of the class is permanent Players, have aage against them and their form is slipping.

Yeah I never liked that saying,we'd still be picking BoD and Jason Robinson if that were true.

whatahitson wrote:Wingers: Watson, LRZ, May (2). Duhan VDM/Maitland if 4.

I wouldn't pick any of those over Josh Adams, and yes that includes Lewis Rhys-Zammet. Josh Adams has his name penciled in already in my opinion.

They’re all better than Adams. Maybe not Maitland but the rest are

Form wise May hasn't been at his peak this 6 nations. Lack of decent ball vs Scotland certainly didn't help. Personally I'd pick may and adams as my starters currently. Rees-Zammitt is class though, probably a couple of rough edges to smooth over but he's fast getting there.

Adams scores tries, which is obviously a very important skill. I am not sure what else he offers (A sort of Welsh Ashton). He'll have his chance next week to show what else he can do but I can't recall him causing the kind of chaos that Watson or May did vs France.

LRZ (and Sheedy who has looked good when I have bothered to watch) has a big future, the only question is would this summer be too soon?

May all be academic. I am not convinced the Lions is going to happen.

Also, even though I do not think it would be right, but George North has been a bit of a revelation at 13, and he can play on the wing, as he has done most of his career, and he is now a bit of a Lions veteran at the age of 28, do any of you think Gatland would not pick him to tour ?

LordDowlais wrote:Also, even though I do not think it would be right, but George North has been a bit of a revelation at 13, and he can play on the wing, as he has done most of his career, and he is now a bit of a Lions veteran at the age of 28, do any of you think Gatland would not pick him to tour ?

Ultimately a lot will depend on how Gatland wants to play. We will end up with good players not going because they won't fit what he wants.

Are we not following the form is temporary, class is permanent line when selecting wingers then? May and Watson are the class acts, I’m sure you’ll all agree ...

BamBam wrote:Are we not following the form is temporary, class is permanent line when selecting wingers then? May and Watson are the class acts, I’m sure you’ll all agree ...

No I do not agree.

I think for Scotland based on their three matches vs their home nations rivals Watson, J Gray and Hogg are nailed on.

I think you're being a bit harsh on Gray Whatahitson, he has very good stats this tournament and even though he wasn't at his best yesterday he wasn't poor. Big part of that Scottish pack and has developed his carrying at Exeter Chiefs as we saw against England and Wales.

Russell, Z Fagerson, Sutherland are pretty close calls. Redpath is our bolter but Jones may well be too if he can have another big game against Italy and France at 13. He's a talented player who has also played well against SA during the autumn internationals in the past. Maitland is a solid winger/fullback who might be a good option as injury cover.

Probably missing out: M Fagerson, Turner, Ritchie, R Gray, Cummings, Price, DVDM, Harris

No doubt some of the players who did well against England and Wales have now lost their place after yesterdays performance. Still, I think 3-5 Scottish Lions is quite likely.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Are we not following the form is temporary, class is permanent line when selecting wingers then? May and Watson are the class acts, I’m sure you’ll all agree ...

No I do not agree.

There’s a surprise

LordDowlais wrote:

whatahitson wrote:Connor Murray can't even start for Ireland but he can for the Lions? Strange.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

May showed just how class he is on Saturday.

He's the first choice winger for the lions.

GeordieFalcon wrote:May showed just how class he is on Saturday.

He's the first choice winger for the lions.

May made more metres than anyone in the France game, and for the first time in a while was causing havoc on the kick chase. Watson was sublime. Both are complete players.

Rees Zamatt is first choice for me.

just in case Welsh fans think I have gone soft - I would not have Adams in the squad

May is class. So is Watson. Bizarre to try and argue they're not, May for the last 2 years has been wonderful in all aspects of his game. Bar having a breakable nose obviosuly.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:May showed just how class he is on Saturday.

He's the first choice winger for the lions.

May made more metres than anyone in the France game, and for the first time in a while was causing havoc on the kick chase. Watson was sublime. Both are complete players.

Complete players ???
Sorry that is nonsense
Good players yes, but there are other players as good if not better

My interpretation of complete players is that they have no obvious weakness to their game and can do everything required of a player at their position. Not necessarily a comment on whether they are "the best" (even though they are in this case)

Watson defensive positioning leaves something to be desired

May is a poor kicker, also he seems to have attitude problem.
I hastened to say not in terms of commitment but he gets down when things are going right.

They are weaknesses to me

geoff999rugby wrote:Watson defensive positioning leaves something to be desired

May is a poor kicker, also he seems to have attitude problem.
I hastened to say not in terms of commitment but he gets down when things are going right.

They are weaknesses to me

Examples of either? I have to say I've not seen it and 9ve watched both quite a lot for club and country.

LordDowlais wrote:

whatahitson wrote:Wingers: Watson, LRZ, May (2). Duhan VDM/Maitland if 4.

I wouldn't pick any of those over Josh Adams, and yes that includes Lewis Rhys-Zammet. Josh Adams has his name penciled in already in my opinion.

Adams' form took a bit of a dip coming into the 6N and he can be a little sloppy at times so he is by no-means pencilled in - but he is one of the best wingers and should tour. May will tour as he's still a great player, it's just LRZ and VDM have been a bit better in the 2021 tournament. Wing is a strong position for Wales and England so the test players will probably come from us two.

Is this the same May who spends 5 hours a day stretching, was diligent enough in his recovery to clock a time in training that Usain Bolt would have thought respectable, who once played 75 minutes of a match covering both wings and who regularly covered for Daly's deficiencies in the air?

If that's a man with an attitude problem, I'd love to see one who doesn't.

Like everyone, May has quiet games from time to time. And sometimes he tries to force things a bit when it's not on. As a winger, there's only so much you can do if you're not seeing the ball or if your team isn't creating space for you. But May has matured into one of England's most consistent performers, so it's a bit bizarre to claim he has an attitude problem.

Watson I'll concede has sometimes been out of position defensively - though in a pendulum system it may be more that he's exposed by Daly being out of position. We'd need to see him play with a proper fullback for a few games to make a judgement on that.

A player who definitely has had an attitude problem in the past is Marler, but he seems to have conquered it and not many of the rival looseheads in the 6N have shown the sort of setpiece form the Lions will need against South Africa. I don't know if he will make himself available to tour, but if he does I would not bet against him being part of the party.

lostinwales wrote:Adams scores tries, which is obviously a very important skill. I am not sure what else he offers (A sort of Welsh Ashton). He'll have his chance next week to show what else he can do but I can't recall him causing the kind of chaos that Watson or May did vs France.

LRZ (and Sheedy who has looked good when I have bothered to watch) has a big future, the only question is would this summer be too soon?

May all be academic. I am not convinced the Lions is going to happen.

That's what Adams has going for him, he scores tries. He is good at kicking and support play too, a good all-rounder. Much better than Ashton, and a better winger than North.

I think LRZ has to tour and be a test starter on this form. I didn't foresee it, but he's made it IMO. Sheedy will be good for us too, but I also think we'll bring through other fly-halves that surpass him (one of them also plays for Bristol).

mikey_dragon wrote:Adams' form took a bit of a dip coming into the 6N and he can be a little sloppy at times so he is by no-means pencilled in - but he is one of the best wingers and should tour. May will tour as he's still a great player, it's just LRZ and VDM have been a bit better in the 2021 tournament. Wing is a strong position for Wales and England so the test players will probably come from us two.

Adams was one of Gatland's choices for Wales though, so that's why I can see him in pole position, LRZ should tour for the experience, but I think he would be more of a midweek player, as mature as he has looked I still think he has a few things to learn, but is there anybody faster in world rugby at the moment ? Who was that American who played in France ? He was quick, is he still going ?

Z Ngwenya..think he has retired...mind he was ready a qualified radiologist if memory serves.
For me against the Boks in the back 3 I'd want Hogg and Williams + an other.
Personally I like Adams..seems to have the nose for where to be.
Watson is a great broken field runner but I worry about his positioning.
May is rapid as is LRZ..
VdM seems the most physical and Stockdale could come back in + countless others.

geoff999rugby wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:May showed just how class he is on Saturday.

He's the first choice winger for the lions.

May made more metres than anyone in the France game, and for the first time in a while was causing havoc on the kick chase. Watson was sublime. Both are complete players.

Complete players ???
Sorry that is nonsense
Good players yes, but there are other players as good if not better

There are no wingers available with a better all round game than either May or Watson, Adams is also in the conversation to tour.

11 May
14 Van Der M
15 Hogg

GeordieFalcon wrote:11 May
14 Van Der M
15 Hogg

14 Van Der M ??????????????

He has done nothing what so ever this 6N to justify being a Lions starter. Never mind to actually go on tour.