Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

If that's Youngs having a good tournament, we're in trouble!

I'd expect Davies & Murray as most likely and Webb if he recovers, Youngs may sneak in by default though.....

Mako & Billy, I'm pretty sure will tour. They've always took a while to get up to speed so I don't think their 6N form will play too much (I think they both played quite well personally).

I'd take any of the 9s before youngs.

Do you reckon Gatland being Gatland he might do something like call Rhys Webb up from the international wilderness??? He’s still arguably Wales’ best 9 and has been in some good form, but he seemed to choose not be available for Wales this 6N as he’s got a young family and didn’t want to commit to being in a bubble and away from them for months if he wasn’t going to get much game time (I think Pivac had indicated he was likely to be 3rd choice SH for the tournament). That’s a tough one as I can understand it from a family point of view but it sort of makes him look bad from a pro sportsman point of view too. But it would be very Gatland-esque to call up one of his old faves who decided to come home from France not only for family reasons but to win more test caps.

The Oracle wrote:Do you reckon Gatland being Gatland he might do something like call Rhys Webb up from the international wilderness??? He’s still arguably Wales’ best 9 and has been in some good form, but he seemed to choose not be available for Wales this 6N as he’s got a young family and didn’t want to commit to being in a bubble and away from them for months if he wasn’t going to get much game time (I think Pivac had indicated he was likely to be 3rd choice SH for the tournament). That’s a tough one as I can understand it from a family point of view but it sort of makes him look bad from a pro sportsman point of view too. But it would be very Gatland-esque to call up one of his old faves who decided to come home from France not only for family reasons but to win more test caps.

I wouldn't argue with that.  But I don't think prioritising one's family over touring internationally is any form of negative. Joe Marler did the same and is respected for it. However, by the same logic, Gatland should call up Danny Care who is playing the best scrum half in the Premiership (in my highly debatable opinion).  Care's future as an England international is over, but the Lions are exclusively about the now.  And now he is playing great.  It also helps to be playing with the best attacking 10 in the Premiership...

doctor_grey wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Do you reckon Gatland being Gatland he might do something like call Rhys Webb up from the international wilderness??? He’s still arguably Wales’ best 9 and has been in some good form, but he seemed to choose not be available for Wales this 6N as he’s got a young family and didn’t want to commit to being in a bubble and away from them for months if he wasn’t going to get much game time (I think Pivac had indicated he was likely to be 3rd choice SH for the tournament). That’s a tough one as I can understand it from a family point of view but it sort of makes him look bad from a pro sportsman point of view too. But it would be very Gatland-esque to call up one of his old faves who decided to come home from France not only for family reasons but to win more test caps.

I wouldn't argue with that.  But I don't think prioritising one's family over touring internationally is any form of negative.  Joe Marler did the same and is respected for it.  However, by the same logic, Gatland should call up Danny Care who is playing the best scrum half in the Premiership (in my highly debatable opinion).  Care's future as an England international is over, but the Lions are exclusively about the now.  And now he is playing great.  It also helps to be playing with the best attacking 10 in the Premiership...

Yeah, not criticising him for the family thing myself. Although it did sound like he would have gone with Wales had he been told he’d be 1st choice so I’m not sure what that says.

Danny Care is the best scrum half in the NH apart from Dupont at the moment.

Care's issue were always the same:

1. He struggled to bring his Quins form and bench performances for England into the starting shirt consistently

2. His kicking and game management struggled at international level until the game opened up later on

3. If a mad scientist were tasked by a billionaire with building the perfect example of an idiot then Danny Care and Ryan Wilson's brains would be worth more than many countries

Wrong on all three points.

Well gatland was at the Bristol harlequins game. You'd imagine he would have been running the eye over sheedy sinckler from Bristol. Not too sure there are other serous options there. Harlequins dombrandt marler smith perhaps marchant at a stretch. Care is certainly in far better form than youngs and some as above are actually considering him.

Frankly with Care, the more I think about it, based on current form, he would be the perfect sub to come off the bench to close out a match or more importantly chase a game. The last thing a powerful and tiring team would want to see is that ball of energy. Yes, he was not a consistently fantastic international scrum half, though he was generally good. He didn't win 80+ caps by not being international caliber. And he is playing better now than he has in a long time, maybe the best in his career. As I said before, the Lions are about the now.

Andrew Porter is surely a shoe-in for tighthead? He played brilliantly for Ireland when Furlong was injured - I see no reason why he won't tour and could be selected for the tests. Furlong is class and rightly the number 1, but Porter has been class.

The thing about Furlong is he looks like a real old style prop.  Can't beat that.

Furlong and Porter are in the test 23 for me. LH is still up for grabs.

SIMs Lions team of the tournament

Hogg
L.Williams
North
Henshaw
Rees-Zammit
Russell
Murray

W.Jones
Owens
Furlong
AWJ
Henderson
Beirne
Curry
Faletau


Probably the right team of the tournament, but won't beat SA.

I used to really like Russell and wanted him to get selected for the last tour. Dont think he was very good in this years 6 nations though. No shortage of talent and confidence but makes too many poor decisions.

Sexton and Biggar are the form 10s by a fair bit Imo.

Russell might be the most talented fly half of the bunch, but we can't have a player who we are worried about going off the reservation.  As has been said the best ability is availability.  Second best ability is reliability.  That combined with Sexton (if he can stay in one piece) and Bigger, both being real quality makes the decision for me.  Plus let's take a flyer on Marcus Smith.  Just because.

Personally I'd like to see it but I can't see Russell starting - half the time his Scottish teammates don't know what he's going to pull out of his box of tricks, never mind his fellow Lions tourists who have never played with him before.

10 is still really hard to call though:
Ford - lightweight and not an experienced goalkicker
Farrell - out of form and lacks creativity
Sexton - fragile and has lost his pace
Russell - just too chaotic

Biggar in fairness doesn't have a glaring weakness. Sexton if his body holds up looks like the current favourite but I think he might be better in a role off the bench. He'd bring some assuredness to the Lions coming on in a tight game.

Can't argue against Porter. He's naturally the next in line to take Dan Cole's shirt and the other two toured last time. Francis and Fagerson are both solid in their own right as well but, oddly, tight head is a position of good depth for the Lions. It would be a huge call to leave Sinckler out and I can't see that happening so the props almost pick themselves.

Russell was not chaotic this series - however despite showing the control and the kicking game we wanted to see he did not produce the match winning magic either

Where the tens stood before this series he needed to really make it impossible for gatland to take him. He didn't

As I have said all along - I would have Biggar. Not the fastest, not the most talented but the way he plays suits a team who do not have a lot of time together and he is consistent and makes few mistakes

Russell's put in some decent tactical kicking this tournament but if you go back and watch any of Scotland's games, you'll realise how monumental Hogg is and how much he covers for/does Russell's job. Hogg's tactical kicking is unbelievably good. It's not so much about what Russell can do with ball in hand, it's the mistakes he makes. He's so error prone and it's been a long time since he's put in even a 60 minute maverick perfomance, let alone the kind of game Biggar and Sexton have shown throughout their careers, controlling the game from 10. Russell looks like a luxury the Lions can't afford in all honesty and I've thought it for a while. This six nations didn't change my thinking on that. Great to watch as a neutral, great player to create a highlight reel for, but not really competing with the best in Europe let alone the world. Club rugby is more his game and his error strewn performance against Exeter will have been noted by Gatland as a sign of what he could do on the big stage.

It seems daft to leave Russell behind to me, he's had a good Six Nations marshalling Scotland as vice captain and his strategical kicking in their two big wins was excellent. Sexton was the standout for me, he played very well against Scotland and England and deserves to tour again. If Townsend is the attack coach as predicted I see it hard for him to be happy with losing Russell and having two very similar tens in Biggar and Sexton.

Hard to call it daft given the way he's played. He might tour simply because Gatland has said he doesn't want a repeat of the bad press he received last time and that will mean from our own media as well as the opposition's. It's a shame but there might be a tactical pick or two in there with Russell as the 4th 10 with Farrell covering 12 as well. The big issue with Sexton is consistency. When was the last time Sexton played well when his pack was struggling? I can't remember, I'd say it's at least 2018 possibly earlier. That's a worry. It's a similar situation for Farrell as a 10 as well whereas Ford often performs in those circumstances at club level. Biggar doesn't have the full skillset to play running rugby but he's very good and a warrior. It's not an easy pick and I'd ignore Russell given the other options available. Calls for Russell to be the starting 10 for the tests, or Simmonds for England, is as close as rugby seems to get to tabloid nonsense that dominated football for so long. It might upset a few fans but I can see Ford touring ahead of Russell.

I understand and to a degree concur on the thoughts on Russell. However if Sexton, Farrell or Biggar is on and the Lions are 10 points behind then Russell offers something completely different.

Biggar seems to go up and down in people's estimations. At times a right pain in the arse, other times a weakness.

I do remember the Lions tour where Gatland took 14 out of 15 from the first choice Welsh team. The odd one out being Biggar

In 2013, he only took two outside halves, to be fair.

Sexton has placekicked well this season but historically he isn't quite as reliable as Farrell or Biggar. Plus he rarely kicks from >40m and with two of the Tests at altitude in Johannesburg I think Gatland would prefer to have a longer range kicker such as Daly or Halfpenny on the field. Neither of those are near the form back 3 however, maybe the Sexton-Farrell 10-12 axis will go again but that feels a bit slow to me.

RiscaGame wrote:In 2013, he only took two outside halves, to be fair.

Wasn't Hogg the backup 10 in that 2013 tour? I vaguely remember he actually started a match at 10 in one of the mid-week matches. But I need to check and confirm that.

doctor_grey wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:In 2013, he only took two outside halves, to be fair.

Wasn't Hogg the backup 10 in that 2013 tour?  I vaguely remember he actually started a match at 10 in one of the mid-week matches.  But I need to check and confirm that.

Yeah, that’s right.

Needs to be a bigger touring party surely given covid.

Joe Simmonds would be a safe option for the Lions as cover for Bigger and Russell. Sexton is past it for me in SA.

Keeps the Lions tradition of taking a non-capped player. Plus Gatlands tradition of annoying the Irish.

The Lions haven't had an uncapped player in the squad in years.

Even Wade, who was a brief injury replacement rather than initial squad member, had been capped by England just before his call.

Ollie Smith and Leigh Halfpenny were inexperienced but capped. Likewise Ryan Jones in 2005 must have only had a few caps but had definitely impressed with Wales.

John Bentley is often incorrectly mentioned as an uncapped Lion but he was actually capped by England in the Eighties before moving over to League, then returned to Union in the Nineties to make the '97 squad and play a couple of Lions tests.

Greenwood was the last uncapped Lion I can think of to tour in 1997 but even he didn't make a test side for the Lions until 2005. On that '97 tour he infamously was convinced to wear 12 instead of 13 despite his superstition with the 12 jersey and subsequently swallowed his tongue. That was the last time I saw Greenwood wear 12!

To the best of my knowledge Greenwood in '97 was the last uncapped player to tour and the only one in the pro era.

Isn't it the Barbarians who have the tradition of always calling on an uncapped player for the first match of a Baabaas tour?
For the Lions, I think the youngest player is responsible for the the stuffed Lion.

Do you even watch rugby or do you believe this pish? Russell is the best attacking 10 in the NH ( bar perhaps Ntamack) wrote:

Come on. Mun.

I know you are a patriotic Scot, but all of us know that is not true.

Best attacking?  I would say it is and clearly so. Best all round when he is unbroken?  Sexton.  Best for the lions - Biggar  Its all opinions.

All the tens have different attributes but Russell does stuff non of the rest can do.  However he has not done what he needed to do this series which is make it impossible for Gatland to ignore him

Who would you say is a better attacking 10?

TJ wrote:Who would you say is a better attacking 10?

As much has it pains me to say it, Ford.

Think we also need to consider opposition when making picks. SA will be hugely physical and the 10 will need to be able to take a few big hits I suspect. Is Ford too lightweight? He has kicking game and passing etc but if he gets creamed early on could be a long afternoon.
Russell for me is a no-no. Great on his day but far too often has an off day. Farrell shouldn't be considered as 10, no form, and hardly a creative 10.
Being pragmatic I think it's between Sexton and Biggar.

On the 10 debate, I think Russell, Biggar and Sexton all were much of a muchness this year.

In their head to heads, I think Russell was better than Biggar and when Scotland played Ireland Sexton came out on top. I can't really remember the specifics of the Ireland V Wales game, but there is no doubt that Biggar has had a good tournament.

On Russell, for those talking of him being a wild maverick and a making huge numbers of errors - you must all be watching a different game from me. Against England and France his tactical kicking, in conjunction with Hogg, was one of the central reasons we won and he played really well against Wales - if DHVDM wasn't tap tackled in the last min, I think the conversations would be very different.

On Russell, for those talking of him being a wild maverick and a making huge numbers of errors

the problem for me is we saw less of those bits of match winning magic that are what really makes him so fantastic. Why i am not sure but compared to the second half in that mad game against england a couple of years ago he was just missing those match winning touches

But I have said right from the beginning that he is not really lions material ( unless you build a team around him)

But even in the two matches you mention, neither of which I watched fully, I can remember Russell trying a bizarre left-footed drop goal against England on 79 minutes and throwing another very late intercept against Wales. That's not to say he didn't mix in some brilliant moments too and he/Scotland recovered those moments but I can't imagine Gatland embracing that kind of chaos. Even when he plays for Racing he is equally capable of winning or losing the game for them as we saw in the ECC final.

Ford makes his tackles but they do tend to be of the 'hold on and hope they'll eventually fall over' kind. Interesting how much talk there is of how England do work hard to protect him, which has consequences elsewhere.

He's not much of a running threat either. However he is brilliant at organising his team's attack and at tactical kicking.

Choice of 10 is going to be very hard. All the candidates are a compromise. Sexton is ancient and increasingly made of glass. Russell, for all the individual brilliance is still flakey as hell and prone to really dumb moments. Ford- see above.

Biggar only makes it into consideration because he doesn't have major weaknesses, but he doesn't have major strengths either. Farrell will be under consideration because he's been there and done it, but the universal feeling at least on here is that we are not sure that we want to see him do it again.

So Sheedy and Hastings it is then.

lostinwales wrote:Biggar only makes it into consideration because he doesn't have major weaknesses, but he doesn't have major strengths either.

He does have a lot of strenghts, he is awesome under the high ball, and of all the 10's in the 6n's he is the most solid in defence. His place kicking aint to shabby either.

I suspect he will take all three of Sexton, Biggar and Russell. It is just not going to be so easy for him to ignore the Scottish players this time around and they all have their plus points, its a shame that we can't start a hybrid of the three of them!

The real question is more likely who is going to be in the test squad.

Russell may well look a much better player when he is behind a more dominant pack than Scotland's but that might only become apparent when he plays in some of the warm up games.

I reckon Sexton is a better defender as he doesnt miss many tackles either and is a more dominant tackler, Biggar is very good too though. I think Biggar has been a really good player for a long time now and wouldnt begruge him his chance to be the test 10. He would be a good choice but in my view Sexton has had a marginally better year.

So where does Farrel and Ford fit in?

Farrell at 12?

BigGee wrote:I suspect he will take all three of Sexton, Biggar and Russell. It is just not going to be so easy for him to ignore the Scottish players this time around and they all have their plus points, its a shame that we can't start a hybrid of the three of them!

The real question is more likely who is going to be in the test squad.

Russell may well look a much better player when he is behind a more dominant pack than Scotland's but that might only become apparent when he plays in some of the warm up games.

Not so sure you can say that about the Scotland pack anymore. On the other hand it is going to be quite some effort to put together a pack that will 'dominate' SA.

lostinwales wrote: On the other hand it is going to be quite some effort to put together a pack that will 'dominate' SA.

Guess it depends on Big Phil Vickery's availability.

BigGee wrote:I suspect he will take all three of Sexton, Biggar and Russell. It is just not going to be so easy for him to ignore the Scottish players this time around and they all have their plus points, its a shame that we can't start a hybrid of the three of them!

The real question is more likely who is going to be in the test squad.

Russell may well look a much better player when he is behind a more dominant pack than Scotland's but that might only become apparent when he plays in some of the warm up games.

I mean this with the utmost respect, but I think the Scottish fans will be disappointed again. You are all expecting players from Scotland to go, rightly or wrongly, but I do not think Gatland will see it your way.

But this time around, please do not take all your outrage out on the Welsh.

I think Keith Earls was uncapped when he toured


Edit: Turns out he wasn't

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Biggar only makes it into consideration because he doesn't have major weaknesses, but he doesn't have major strengths either.

He does have a lot of strenghts, he is awesome under the high ball, and of all the 10's in the 6n's he is the most solid in defence. His place kicking aint to shabby either.

You make him sound like he should play at FB.

Old Man wrote:So where does Farrel and Ford fit in?

Farrell at 12?

Nowhere.

Hopefully, for me, it will be Biggar at ten, and the two Irish centers. But at the same time, I wouldn't be upset if Sexton and North started.