Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

lostinwales wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Biggar only makes it into consideration because he doesn't have major weaknesses, but he doesn't have major strengths either.

He does have a lot of strenghts, he is awesome under the high ball, and of all the 10's in the 6n's he is the most solid in defence. His place kicking aint to shabby either.

You make him sound like he should play at FB.

He could do a job there, but Hogg and Williams are better. They are much better at the fancy running back at them part of being a full back, and joining in with the back line whilst attacking.

LordDowlais wrote:

BigGee wrote:I suspect he will take all three of Sexton, Biggar and Russell. It is just not going to be so easy for him to ignore the Scottish players this time around and they all have their plus points, its a shame that we can't start a hybrid of the three of them!

The real question is more likely who is going to be in the test squad.

Russell may well look a much better player when he is behind a more dominant pack than Scotland's but that might only become apparent when he plays in some of the warm up games.

I mean this with the utmost respect, but I think the Scottish fans will be disappointed again. You are all expecting players from Scotland to go, rightly or wrongly, but I do not think Gatland will see it your way.

But this time around, please do not take all your outrage out on the Welsh.

Why should that be the case? The arguments for not taking a representative number of Scotland players does not exist in the way they did in 2013 and 2017. Out of the last 10 six nations games we have a record of 6/10 wins; we have beaten Wales, England and France away from home; the losses have all been very close; our top players are playing at the pinnacle of the European game; many of the English players you would expect to tour have had a poor six nations and the Saracens players have no meaningful Rugby left to play before the tournament.

I am not expecting we make up a majority of the squad, nor should we, but Gatlands selections have to reflect the reality of the situation.

Old Man wrote:So where does Farrel and Ford fit in?

Farrell at 12?

on a beach somewhere

RiscaGame wrote:In 2013, he only took two outside halves, to be fair.

3 toured in 2017 with Russell coming in as a late replacement. I think that's more likely to be reflective of this tour and as I said a few days ago we're likely to see a 40+ possibly 50+ man squad if it does go ahead this summer due to issues with covid compliance.

I do genuinely expect Gatland to look past this six nations when he picks the squad, and that as a result there will be much outrage on this site.

In other words I think it is pretty likely that there will be a decent number of England players involved, and in particular Farrell will go. I am not arguing that he should.

I think its going to be a large squad. There will be guys picked who are out of form or coming back from injury (as with the last 2 tours). Once they're all out there i would love to see form on the tour rewarded (as wasn't the case with the last 2 tours).

Ford is nowhere near getting selected for the Lions......1, he's not playing that well and 2, he's not exactly a typical Gatland style selection.

In terms of representation, I think 6-7 Scottish players would be a reasonable reflection. The issue is that our standouts play in very, very competitive positions. Jonny Gray is one of the first names on the teamsheet - but Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Itoje and AWJ are all very very good too. Same goes for Ritchie and Watson, or even Russell.
Equally - it may depend on the make up of the coaching team. If Townsend goes as backs coach, as rumoured, then it may have an impact on the make up of the squad. It has been a long time since a Scottish coach has gone on tour. Even in 2009 it had been 6 years since McGeechan had been involved with Scotland.
I suppose it all comes down to the England players. Whether Gatland picks on form or on reputation. Ultimately many of these guys played in the 2019 world cup where they put in the standout performance - they also came fifth this year. We all know the facts on this - England have been the dominant European team since 2015 and they were rubbish this year. It all comes down to Gatland's preference.

Yes, that is the crux of it for me as well. Lets lock at it pragmatically, and the Scottish players who you could argue for:-

Jonny Grey - Itoje, AWJ, Ryan, Henderson Beirne.

You just know he is going to pick Itoje, so that leaves one spot, does anyone think AWJ will not start ? So now already he is down to backup, do you reckon he will get picked ahead of any of the Irish players ?

Duhan Van De Merwe - LRZ, Adams, May, Earles, Watson North.

This one is a little more complex. I would expect Gatland to go with May and Adams. He might even pick North, so where does that leave him ? Backup ? Ahead of LRZ, Watson, or Earles ? Again, a tough call.

Finn Russell - Biggar, Sexton, Ford, Farrell.

Again, complex, I would love to see him on tour, but for who ? Sexton has to start for me, and Biggar is the better to have as backup, Finn Russell needed a massive 6N to get in, he gave us an up and down one, but as has been highlighted in other posts, if Townsend goes, so could Finn Russell.

Hamish Watson - Tupiric, Wilson, Curry, Josh van der Flier, POM.

This is one of the easier shouts, I would start him, definite tourist, arguably better than all mentioned.

Stuart Hogg - Liam Williams, Leigh Halfpenny, Hugo Keenan, Elliot Daly.

No brainer, Hogg starts.

So that is one more or less nailed on, one in a very strong position. So sorry guys, I can only see two going, going on past squads.

I would love to be wrong though, but I just cannot see it.

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:So where does Farrel and Ford fit in?

Farrell at 12?

Nowhere.

Hopefully, for me, it will be Biggar at ten, and the two Irish centers. But at the same time, I wouldn't be upset if Sexton and North started.

Im of a similar opinion to this, albeit the otherway round with North and Sexton to start.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Biggar only makes it into consideration because he doesn't have major weaknesses, but he doesn't have major strengths either.

He does have a lot of strenghts, he is awesome under the high ball, and of all the 10's in the 6n's he is the most solid in defence. His place kicking aint to shabby either.

Russell is pretty good in defense as well but basically I agree with you.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, that is the crux of it for me as well. Lets lock at it pragmatically, and the Scottish players who you could argue for:-

Jonny Grey - Itoje, AWJ, Ryan, Henderson Beirne.

You just know he is going to pick Itoje, so that leaves one spot, does anyone think AWJ will not start ? So now already he is down to backup, do you reckon he will get picked ahead of any of the Irish players ?

Duhan Van De Merwe - LRZ, Adams, May, Earles, Watson North.

This one is a little more complex. I would expect Gatland to go with May and Adams. He might even pick North, so where does that leave him ? Backup ? Ahead of LRZ, Watson, or Earles ? Again, a tough call.

Finn Russell - Biggar, Sexton, Ford, Farrell.

Again, complex, I would love to see him on tour, but for who ? Sexton has to start for me, and Biggar is the better to have as backup, Finn Russell needed a massive 6N to get in, he gave us an up and down one, but as has been highlighted in other posts, if Townsend goes, so could Finn Russell.

Hamish Watson - Tupiric, Wilson, Curry, Josh van der Flier, POM.

This is one of the easier shouts, I would start him, definite tourist, arguably better than all mentioned.

Stuart Hogg - Liam Williams, Leigh Halfpenny, Hugo Keenan, Elliot Daly.

No brainer, Hogg starts.

So that is one more or less nailed on, one in a very strong position. So sorry guys, I can only see two going, going on past squads.

I would love to be wrong though, but I just cannot see it.

Of course the competition is high, but the Lions is supposed to be comprised of four nations - what's the point if one country is excluded when there is no obvious difference in quality between the options?

I'm not arguing for 10+ players, I think somewhere between 5-8 would be a realistic and fair contingent;  the squad would lose nothing in terms of quality if Jonny Gray, Hamish Watson, Rory Sutherland and Finn Russell were included alongside Hogg.  If those 5 toured I think most Scots would be really pleased, it's not as if we are asking for much - we would still have the lowest representation by far.

TBH I would be very surprised if Rory Sutherland or Jonny Grey went.

Zander Fagerson should be in the reckoning. Excellent series.

Jonny gray needed a good series but didn't play enough to be in the shop window due to injury

If only 2 Scots go in the whole squad, then I doubt I would watch it - as they have showed that they are good enough

I think 5-8 is fair, and still would be the lowest of the nations.

What this 6n showed, all the teams are a whisker between each and not one can be categorically classed as better than the rest - a bounce of a ball, a red card, or even a ref decision meant that almost all could have won and it was closer than ever before.

It is likely when a fifty/fifty selection needs to be made Gatland will go for the players he knows best, and considering Wales won the Six Nations, it can easily be justified

Hoggy and The Mullet should definitely tour.

Russell in my opinion should be in the squad as well but fly-half selections will always be heavily affected by tactics.

Sutherland, Zander, Jonny Gray and Cummings should be close in competitive positions.

Ritchie I can see sneaking into the squad and impressing a lot. He does most things very well and has a huge work rate making him the sort of flanker that Gatland really likes. Curry, Navidi and Ritchie all fit that mould. I'd be surprised if all three made the initial squad but if I were a betting man I might put a few quid on Ritchie being the player on this tour who joins as an injury replacement but makes an impact on the test side.

Then Duhan is an absolute weapon in attack with obvious weaknesses defensively. That will depend on how highly Gatland rates his strengths and how worried he is about the weaknesses. Gats stuck by Cuthbert for a while due to his physicality and finishing despite diminishing returns and a lot of weaknesses though so he will take risks if he wants power on the wing.

On balance I reckon a few more Scots should definitely make this squad.

The aggregate score between Wales and Scotland over the last two games has been 35 - 38. In the latest game Scotland were a tap tackle away from winning. Wales deservedly won the championship, but there is a baw hair between the teams. I couldn't care less if Gatland knows some of the players better than the others, he should pick a representative team representatively.

I think this is likely to be the hardest squad that Gats has every picked. The Scots have not made it easy for him to ignore them and the English have thrown his likely (and preferred squad) into the wastepaper bin with such a poor 6N.

There are good players accross the board with very little to choose between them and after all that has gone on before he will need to be fair and more importantly, be seen to be fair.

Some players and a lot of fans are going to be dissapointed!

From my point of view a lot of players are very close, especially based on their Six Nations performances. With that in mind here is my list of players I see as automatic to tour:
Hogg
Itoje
Falatau
Curry
Watson (Hamish)
Furlong
Sexton
Bigger

doctor_grey wrote:From my point of view a lot of players are very close, especially based on their Six Nations performances.  With that in mind here is my list of players I see as automatic to tour:
Hogg
Itoje
Falatau
Curry
Watson (Hamish)
Furlong
Sexton
Bigger

Would agree with all of those, and I'd add Beirne too. A fine spine to the team they'd form too - tighthead, lock, all 3 back rowers, fly half and full back.

I feel like Beirne should start somewhere, I'd love to see him at lock with Curry and Watson at flanker, but I wonder if SA being the opposition will require Beirne to shift to 6 to allow for a more heavyweight lock alongside Itoje.

It's unlikely any squad will upset me particularly. Wales have just won the title; Ireland & Scotland have experienced Lions and form players, while England have World Cup finalists. Almost any mix would be intriquing, and the challenge for Gatland is finding personalities and playing styles which complement each other. If he can find combinations anywhere in his team like like BOD and Jamie Roberts from 2009, then we all win.

doctor_grey wrote:From my point of view a lot of players are very close, especially based on their Six Nations performances.  With that in mind here is my list of players I see as automatic to tour:
Hogg
Itoje
Falatau
Curry
Watson (Hamish)
Furlong
Sexton
Bigger

Curry ? As good as he is I reckon if CJ Stander wasn't retiring he would miss out.

I assume you're talking about ben curry there ld.

Stander is still available to tour, isn't he? It would make sense, go on tour with the Lions and when it's over just stay there rather than fly back to Ireland...

LordDowlais wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:From my point of view a lot of players are very close, especially based on their Six Nations performances.  With that in mind here is my list of players I see as automatic to tour:
Hogg
Itoje
Falatau
Curry
Watson (Hamish)
Furlong
Sexton
Bigger

Curry ? As good as he is I reckon if CJ Stander wasn't retiring he would miss out.

Dear lord

Stander is available for the tour.

Tom Curry is arguably the best 7 in the NH, he will tour. Itoje and Curry are the only English nailed on forwards for me.

Vunipola, LCD, George, Sinkler, Marie, Billy, Underhill all have great shouts too.

123456789. wrote:I understand and to a degree concur on the thoughts on Russell. However if Sexton, Farrell or Biggar is on and the Lions are 10 points behind then Russell offers something completely different.

I think based on what Gatland has done in the past, if/when that situation occurs, he won't turn to a 10 to turn the game around. It's usually the 9 or a back 3 player. In this case it'll be Hogg with maybe Liam Williams on the bench, and possibly one of the Welsh 9s to break up the game if/when a 9 like Murray isn't cutting it. That's what he did last time with Webb. If Hogg had stayed fit in 2017 he would have been his starting 15 and he is nailed on this time.

Too much is made of Gatland's conservatism at times. While I don't think anyone can argue he is one of the less 'freeing' coaches in world rugby his history of picking a 10 suggests he's not looking for a Wilko or Morne Steyn. He picked Priestland over Biggar for years and then dropped Biggar as soon as Anscombe made the step up.

Biggar is in the mix just because he's such a good player but I don't think it's an ideal scenario. Sexton is a better 10 but he's way past his peak and the England and Scotland games were the first truly dominant performances he's put in for literally years.

I still think Ford is going on tour and stands a great chance of starting the first test match. I think he will suit Gatlandball with a Farrell outside him o Biggar on the bench.

In terms of Scottish representation, in 2005 and 2009 we were gash so there's a perfectly good reason to only take a couple of players. 2013 we were even gasher. 2017 we recorded wins against Wales and Ireland at home, there was reason to believe that more Scots would tour. Ultimately, Gatland's argument was that Scotland's players had flunked at home and when it mattered. He was right, Scotland had a 6 nations title decider against England and lost by 40 points. Glasgow had a quarter-final against Saracens and got pumped also.

So what's changed four years on. This season Scotland have finally, dispelled the 'can't win away' tag. Wales and France were the top two in the Championship and both were beaten away this year. Scotland beat England for the first time since 1983. Which sort of answers the second point, the combined period without victory away for those three games was nearly eighty years. All were pretty close games, Scotland teams of yesteryear would have thrown one, probably two and quite possibly three away at the death. Before patting themselves on the back for a good performance. The Wales game is the big question mark. We were home and hosed and threw it away long before Fagerson was sent off.

So a lot of questions have been answered and a lot remain but two players to tour? That's ridiculous. In 2017, it was fair to say that despite the closeness in ability, lack of big game experience counted against Scotland's players generally. I don't think that applies any more at club or international level. Hogg is a definite. Players like Fagerson, Gray, Ritchie, Watson, Russell, Van Der Merwe and Maitland who would expect to be part of the conversation play in very competitive positions, equally players like Sutherland, Turner and (only because I've seen him included in some squads) Price who play in less competitive positions could sneak in. I don't think all, or even most (or even three quarters) of those players will tour but the blanket reasons to not pick Scottish players don't apply anymore. It beggars belief to suggest that none of them are in the top three players in their positions after the results Scotland recorded this season and last.

Old Man wrote:So where does Farrel and Ford fit in?

Farrell at 12?

It's hard to see Gatland turning back to Farrell as a 10 given he wasn't up to the job in 2017 but it's a different tour and a different opponent. Maybe the Lions can get away with Farrell at 10 and go for a Henshaw-Davies/Slade combination in the midfield. Ford is hit and miss now he may be a casualty of England's defeats. It's very hard to say.

EST wrote:On Russell,  for those talking of him being a wild maverick and a making huge numbers of errors - you must all be watching a different game from me. Against England and France his tactical kicking, in conjunction with Hogg, was one of the central reasons we won and he played really well against Wales - if DHVDM wasn't tap tackled in the last min, I think the conversations would be very different.

He was sent off for a dirty trip v England and for a forearm to the neck against France. Do those not count?

How about his poor showing v Ireland? Missed kicks out on the full, an inability to change up the game or get Scotland back in to a foothold. Hogg covers for so much of what Russell doesn't do and in some ways it's working well for the team but it doesn't do Russell any favours on an individual level. Hogg is just in a league of his own, maybe even compared to every other back the Lions could pick. He's that good and I expect him to show it in the summer.

10 is a very hard position to judge as it's so reliant on how well the 9 men in front of you perform. It's a completely different game playing on the front foot to playing on the back foot. However, it's good to judge a potential Lions 10 on the backfoot and Russell persistently fails to show the kind of performance that Biggar and Ford are capable of behind a pack in retreat. Farrell is poor as well, Sexton is often a mixed bag in that a poor forward performance seems to put him off his game and he starts becoming emotional but he has performed in the past.

In many ways Scotland played in a way that Gatland's teams have in the past. Dominate possession and territory, or at least try to, but lacking a cutting edge. I don't think Russell showed how he can bring his undoubted attacking talents in to a more controlled gameplan. If anything, he still has mistakes, and petulant, brainless ones at that, but he's lost the spark until it's a last minute, balls out, run it from everywhere approach. At which point Hogg is by far a better option to turn to. As good as Russell's offload was in that last minute v Wales he threw an intercept 10m from his own line 2 minutes before.

EST wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BigGee wrote:I suspect he will take all three of Sexton, Biggar and Russell. It is just not going to be so easy for him to ignore the Scottish players this time around and they all have their plus points, its a shame that we can't start a hybrid of the three of them!

The real question is more likely who is going to be in the test squad.

Russell may well look a much better player when he is behind a more dominant pack than Scotland's but that might only become apparent when he plays in some of the warm up games.

I mean this with the utmost respect, but I think the Scottish fans will be disappointed again. You are all expecting players from Scotland to go, rightly or wrongly, but I do not think Gatland will see it your way.

But this time around, please do not take all your outrage out on the Welsh.

Why should that be the case?  The arguments for not taking a representative number of Scotland players does not exist in the way they did in 2013 and 2017.  Out of the last 10 six nations games we have a record of 6/10 wins; we have beaten Wales, England and France away from home; the losses have all been very close; our top players are playing at the pinnacle of the European game; many of the English players you would expect to tour have had a poor six nations and the Saracens players have no meaningful Rugby left to play before the tournament.

I am not expecting we make up a majority of the squad, nor should we, but Gatlands selections have to reflect the reality of the situation.

The reality is Scotland are coming off the back of going out in the group stage of a world cup. Unlike England's bounce back in 2016 and 2017, Scotland have finished 4th two years in a row at a time when the 3 other major teams completely changed approach and head coach. Ireland and Wales were very weak in 2020 but then clearly in 2021 turned the corner and in fact surpassed Scotland in practically no time.

When Scotland went with a continuity option and were far more settled than anyone apart from England, they still struggled to put away a dreadful Welsh team in the autumn. The reality is they're still the 4th best/worst team of the home nations and that will count against them.

Should it count against their star playes? No, Hogg is maybe the best player in the home nations, in my opinion he is anyway, and could be an outside bet for Lions captain. Watson is a top player but in a position of incredible competition. The position where the Lions are weak, centre, is not a position of strength for Scotland with several different 'decent but imperfect' options, although Sam Johnson might tour as he's been a consistent performer for several years now.

From a neutral, don't build your hopes up. I'd be surprised if Scotland take more than 5 on tour. It could be fewer. Scotland only have a single player who is the best in his position: Hogg. Their next best players - J Gray, Watson, Russell, perhaps VDM - are not top of the queue and that's the reality for the Scots, they're competing with diverse talent from the other 3 nations. When you get down to their better performers who aren't necessarily the stars, like Ritchie, the hookers, Fagerson and Sutherland, it becomes even tougher to include them given the competition. When you factor in individual and collective inconsistency then it's hard to see too many Scots touring unless/until injuries occur.

At this point I'd say Hogg is nailed on with Watson and VDM as good bets. Gray might sneak in as 5th lock but he's up against more versatile players in Lawes and Henderson who can play multiple positions in the midweek games. Ritchie might go if Underhill's fitness counts agaisnt him but at the moment I think he's still missing out by 2-3 players. Russell is 50:50, another injury and he probably tours but it's hard to pick between him and Ford. Fagerson is probably the first reserve at tight head, Sutherland is probably in a similar position. Sam Johnson would be a dark horse and then 'bolters'/outside bets would go to the likes of Huw Jones, Harris, possibly one of the three hookers, Maitland, and someone like Sam Skinner. Price, Kinghorn, Hastings, Graham, M Fagerson aren't in contention.

So it could be as few as 3 Scots in the original squad depending on how big the touring party is. It could be as many as 7 or 8 if the squad is large. But expecting double figures is ambitious.

123456789. wrote:In terms of representation, I think 6-7 Scottish players would be a reasonable reflection. The issue is that our standouts play in very, very competitive positions. Jonny Gray is one of the first names on the teamsheet - but Ryan, Henderson, Beirne, Itoje and AWJ are all very very good too. Same goes for Ritchie and Watson, or even Russell.
Equally - it may depend on the make up of the coaching team. If Townsend goes as backs coach, as rumoured, then it may have an impact on the make up of the squad. It has been a long time since a Scottish coach has gone on tour. Even in 2009 it had been 6 years since McGeechan had been involved with Scotland.
I suppose it all comes down to the England players. Whether Gatland picks on form or on reputation. Ultimately many of these guys played in the 2019 world cup where they put in the standout performance - they also came fifth this year. We all know the facts on this - England have been the dominant European team since 2015 and they were rubbish this year. It all comes down to Gatland's preference.

This is where it will probably be different to last time.

Gatland has basically had very little 'hands on' rugby since 2019.

I wonder if he might take more of a Geech role this time? Like he did in 2009, less of a figurehead this time and more of a first among equals?

Shaun Edwards is highly unlikely to go as defence coach (isn't he?) so if we end up with Farrell and Townsend as the two senior assistant coaches, with both of them NH head coaches, it's almost like a passing of the torch and will make for a very different dynamic to any previous Lions tour. That's quite exciting in a way. One of the two, most likely Farrell, could even be the next Lions head coach as well.

If that does happen you would imagine Townsend will be advocating for many of his players and the Scots will receive better representation than in previous tours.

I think if the Lions ignore English players due to the most recent form they will be shooting themselves in the foot. England have some of the most talented players available in the likes of Daly, Slade, Youngs, and Ford.

Personally, I think apart from in one or two positions, like wing, form won't matter for very much going in to this tour. Just look how Wales turned themselves around. Look at the Vunipolas during the tournament. This world we're living in isn't operating under 'normal' logic or circumstances and we're probably all looking at it from the perspective of picking the most 'deserving' players based on form. I know that's what all the newspaper columnists are doing.

But teams and Lions tours never really work like that. There will be an opportunity to earn a test place this time and also some players won't adapt as well (or as poorly) to Gatlandball than they do with their national team. That is why I think there should be a healthy contingent of England players going. It won't be popular but it would be the right decision.

king_carlos wrote:Hoggy and The Mullet should definitely tour.

Russell in my opinion should be in the squad as well but fly-half selections will always be heavily affected by tactics.

Sutherland, Zander, Jonny Gray and Cummings should be close in competitive positions.

Ritchie I can see sneaking into the squad and impressing a lot. He does most things very well and has a huge work rate making him the sort of flanker that Gatland really likes. Curry, Navidi and Ritchie all fit that mould. I'd be surprised if all three made the initial squad but if I were a betting man I might put a few quid on Ritchie being the player on this tour who joins as an injury replacement but makes an impact on the test side.

Then Duhan is an absolute weapon in attack with obvious weaknesses defensively. That will depend on how highly Gatland rates his strengths and how worried he is about the weaknesses. Gats stuck by Cuthbert for a while due to his physicality and finishing despite diminishing returns and a lot of weaknesses though so he will take risks if he wants power on the wing.

On balance I reckon a few more Scots should definitely make this squad.

I'd largely agree with this. I forgot about Cummings he's been a shining light for Scotland but won't be in any initial squad. It'll probably take injuries for Scots to boost their numbers so if the tour plans for that by going for a 45+ man squad, many of those extra players will probably come from Scotland.

123456789. wrote:So what's changed four years on. This season Scotland have finally, dispelled the 'can't win away' tag. Wales and France were the top two in the Championship and both were beaten away this year. Scotland beat England for the first time since 1983. Which sort of answers the second point, the combined period without victory away for those three games was nearly eighty years. All were pretty close games, Scotland teams of yesteryear would have thrown one, probably two and quite possibly three away at the death. Before patting themselves on the back for a good performance. The Wales game is the big question mark. We were home and hosed and threw it away long before Fagerson was sent off.

This isn't meant to be inflammatory in the slightest but I can see how it might be. However I have to be honest and say this is coming close to clutching at straws. Without fans, away games just aren't same. Maybe that will be the case for the summer as well but I still think a postponement is the most likely option.

In all honesty, you cannot say that Scotland beating France in the last minute was equal to Wales losing to France in the last minute the week before? You can't honestly say that that was the 'same' French team, playing with the same focus, dedication, and professionalism? France bottled it, there's no question about that. Fair play for getting the win but that was one team losing the game as much/moreso than one team winning. The Wales game was played at a club ground when Wales lost to everyone apart from Italy and Georgia and Scotland still only got past them by less than a score.

The England win was a good step in the right direction but they then followed it up with mince v Wales which I think the red card masked by providing excuses for. Maybe it's an improvement in one sense but it's not adequate in my opinion to suggest Scotland, as a team, have 'answered questions'.

Don't forget, Scotland were top notch in the 2015 world cup and were by rights semi finalists. They were unfortunate so many good players were injued and out of the picture 2 years later. In 2019 they were atrocious and were manshamed by their two main group opponents. Gatland won't be ignoring the touring form from 2019. It's still relevant.

Personally, I hope it's a large squad and many more Scots make the tour as aside from the hostility and all the rest of it, I can see how it's not nice being a Scottish Lions fan over the last decade or two. It's tough to have so little stake in the team so hopefully that can change. But I do think Scotland, as a team and as individuals, are pretty much 4th in the pecking order at any given time. If Townsend picked some of their better players like Skinner, Hastings, Hidalgo Clyne then I think by default they'd have more players on tour but anothe thing counting against them is just how differently Scotland seem to approach rugby to the rest of the NH, and with mixed results. There's real potential in Scotland which is the frustrating part.

mikey_dragon wrote:Stander is still available to tour, isn't he? It would make sense, go on tour with the Lions and when it's over just stay there rather than fly back to Ireland...

Ha, free trip home. That would be finishing up in style.

I think there will be good representation from all four nations.  I absolutely do not want out of form England players getting selected over someone playing well.  Gatland is a fairly conservative coach, though he was pretty free flowing at Chiefs last year.  Ultimately I think, and hope, he rides the wave, taking a few chances or leaps of faith along the way.

I think Russell would be rightly aggrieved, he’s got an almost impossible job because without him and Hastings as backup we would only have beaten Italy, he is an absolute neccessity to the way that we play. Considering we played two of our 5 matches in the rain and the Ireland game going backwards with literally no ball I don’t know what else he was supposed to have done, I’d rather he sticks to his guns and creates uncertainty in the defence than just do constant up and unders and shovelling the ball on side to side to look like he’s having an efficient game. His tactical kicking has improved so much, really was a standout in our big away wins. Like has been said before he is a maverick to some extent, so you either love or hate him but I’d rather the Lions have someone to open the game up a bit rather than 3 fly half’s who are nigh on carbon copies of each other. Yes you have to match them physically but as was shown in 2009 you need to create genuine threats on the outside. Having said all this I doubt the tour will go ahead.

whatahitson wrote:

123456789. wrote:So what's changed four years on. This season Scotland have finally, dispelled the 'can't win away' tag. Wales and France were the top two in the Championship and both were beaten away this year. Scotland beat England for the first time since 1983. Which sort of answers the second point, the combined period without victory away for those three games was nearly eighty years. All were pretty close games, Scotland teams of yesteryear would have thrown one, probably two and quite possibly three away at the death. Before patting themselves on the back for a good performance. The Wales game is the big question mark. We were home and hosed and threw it away long before Fagerson was sent off.

This isn't meant to be inflammatory in the slightest but I can see how it might be. However I have to be honest and say this is coming close to clutching at straws. Without fans, away games just aren't same. Maybe that will be the case for the summer as well but I still think a postponement is the most likely option.

In all honesty, you cannot say that Scotland beating France in the last minute was equal to Wales losing to France in the last minute the week before? You can't honestly say that that was the 'same' French team, playing with the same focus, dedication, and professionalism? France bottled it, there's no question about that. Fair play for getting the win but that was one team losing the game as much/moreso than one team winning. The Wales game was played at a club ground when Wales lost to everyone apart from Italy and Georgia and Scotland still only got past them by less than a score.

The England win was a good step in the right direction but they then followed it up with mince v Wales which I think the red card masked by providing excuses for. Maybe it's an improvement in one sense but it's not adequate in my opinion to suggest Scotland, as a team, have 'answered questions'.

Don't forget, Scotland were top notch in the 2015 world cup and were by rights semi finalists. They were unfortunate so many good players were injued and out of the picture 2 years later. In 2019 they were atrocious and were manshamed by their two main group opponents. Gatland won't be ignoring the touring form from 2019. It's still relevant.

Personally, I hope it's a large squad and many more Scots make the tour as aside from the hostility and all the rest of it, I can see how it's not nice being a Scottish Lions fan over the last decade or two. It's tough to have so little stake in the team so hopefully that can change. But I do think Scotland, as a team and as individuals, are pretty much 4th in the pecking order at any given time. If Townsend picked some of their better players like Skinner, Hastings, Hidalgo Clyne then I think by default they'd have more players on tour but anothe thing counting against them is just how differently Scotland seem to approach rugby to the rest of the NH, and with mixed results. There's real potential in Scotland which is the frustrating part.

I agree with some of this but by not much if I'm completely honest. Postponement changes the whole picture because suddenly who is playing well next year becomes much more relevant.

The whole Scotland beating France, not being equal to Wales beating France is a dubious point entirely. Rugby is played on grass not paper. Comparing any two games is utterly futile. In every single game there are hundreds of different factors. At the very least there are 46 different players with 46 different private lives. There are the different motivations, mitigations and permutations that exist in tournament rugby. Dulin's failure to kick the ball out is one facet in 80 minutes. Russell's red card was another. So of course the game was played slightly differently when Scotland played as to when Wales played. I believe firmly that over the course of a game, and certainly a season, these things even themselves out.

The analysis of the Wales games are bizarre, somehow one cannot be taken into consideration because Wales were bad and the architecture. The other game a red card was entirely inconsequential to the analysis. Remember the same all conquering side Wales side that narrowly lost the grand slam beat a 'mince' Scotland side by one point. With a sketchy holding on call and a potential tackle off of the ball in the last minute. I'm not bitter (believe it or not), a Championship side would never have been in that position, Scotland were 14 points up and should never have placed themselves at the mercy of the referee but much the same applies to Wales in Paris. Taking objective measurements alone: results and statistics - Scotland are not the fourth best team currently in the British Isles.

As for the 2019 World Cup, the Lions has a very long history of proving that World Cups are almost entirely immaterial to the tour that comes after. Woodward took the England side (a Championship side might I add - they would never have been in the situation Scotland were in against Wales or Wales were against France by 2003) from the world cup and got humped. Wales were terrible in 2007 and brought a large amount to the series in 2009. England got knocked out in the group stages in 2015 and were pumped by Australia, then provided a colossal proportion of the 2017 squad. Scotland, as you pointed out, should have beaten Australia in 2015 and provided two players two years on.

I don't think you are wumming - but it seems bizarre to discount luck on one side and not on the other. Circumstances change - that is sport. You can't pick and choose which ones impact.

Great Post numbers

I agree.  In other words pick the players who the coaching or selection group agree are playing well and give the team the best chance to mesh together and win.  And, as I said above, most of the teams were so close this year that selection isn't a given, let alone being picked for the match day 23.  I could really pick eight guys who I think would be picked.  So many others are real close and cases can be made.  Or not.

123456789. wrote:At the very least there are 46 different players with 46 different private lives. There are the different motivations, mitigations and permutations that exist in tournament rugby.

p.s. Don't worry about the different personal situations and motivations, I spoke with Apple and Google and they have it under control.

123456789. wrote:The analysis of the Wales games are bizarre, somehow one cannot be taken into consideration because Wales were bad and the architecture. The other game a red card was entirely inconsequential to the analysis. Remember the same all conquering side Wales side that narrowly lost the grand slam beat a 'mince' Scotland side by one point. With a sketchy holding on call and a potential tackle off of the ball in the last minute. I'm not bitter (believe it or not), a Championship side would never have been in that position, Scotland were 14 points up and should never have placed themselves at the mercy of the referee but much the same applies to Wales in Paris. Taking objective measurements alone: results and statistics - Scotland are not the fourth best team currently in the British Isles.

I will probably get a warning or my post removed here, but I will do this anyway. No matter what Wales do, no matter how they play, it's always because of one thing or another. It's never the fact that perhaps they have better players. For years this has been the case, devalued this, lucky that. If we use your remit, then Wales left about 15 points on the field that day with missed kicks at goal, and butchered moves.

Look at the 6N over past decade, you can even include the world cups if you want. Scotland are by far a much weaker side than Wales, Ireland and England, consistent results have proven this.

Scotland have won their away games against decent opposition for the first time in years. Now all of a sudden they are like a pheonix rising from the ashes ? Sorry I will reserve judgement until they build on what they have achieved as of late.

Yes Scotland have good players, but unfortunately other countries have good players as well, and they have achieved more on the international stage, Wales and England have players that have go to finals and semi finals of the world cup, Wales, England and Ireland have players who have won the 6N, all things Scotland do not have.

Finn Russell, on his day is sublime, but also on his day is a nightmare, Hogg is always excellent as is Hamish Watson, and they are players that you can depend on. But the rest ??? I would not take any other player in the 6N over them.

Sorry for the rant, but I cannot agree with what has been said, and neither can I agree with BigGee that it is a great post.

Dowlais - I would actually say what won wales the tournament was not necessarily better skilled players but composure and discipline. the only game they lost is when they lost those two things

Scotlands composure and discipline let them down at crucial points and it was a recurrent theme throughout the series.

you are in a good attacking position and give away a penalty, your opponents then kick for touch and that gives them an attacking position, then you give away another pen and you are suddenly defending your line or 3 pts down. Wales were noticeably better at not shooting themselves in the foot

When did Wales go to the final of a World Cup?

I still think Ford is going on tour and stands a great chance of starting the first test match.

Then a mere 13 minutes later :

Ford is hit and miss now he may be a casualty of England's defeats.

Hmmm confused or confused.com?

BamBam wrote:When did Wales go to the final of a World Cup?

They havent, and I have never said they have either.

TJ wrote:Dowlais - I would actually say what won wales the tournament was not necessarily better skilled players but composure and discipline. the only game they lost is when they lost those two things

Wales have been consistently better than Scotland for the last decade, winning more and achieving more. It's this delusion that you have, that all your players are just as good as everyone else, that makes you so disappointed when things like the Lions come around and you only have your very best players picked, which unfortunately, for a Scotland fan, is only about 1 or two players.

That is why you never win the 6N.

Just a reminder, Gatland and Wales has been a thorn in the side of South Africa for a while now. Even the Bok coaches were nervous about how to beat Wales in the Semi Final.

Their style of play somehow thwarts our style of play, their no risk, no play in their half methodology unsettles the Boks.

Their players know that system well. So it stands to reason for me at least that is what Gatland will bring.