Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

Can I ask thy you feel this fly?
'The Vunipolas as a family were driven by opportunity outside of rugby without realising that rugby was pulling the strings in the background'

Parks and Anscombe also didn't qualify through residency.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eligibility rules are the same for everyone bar Wales around the late 90s and early 00s.

Care to explain this statement ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask thy you feel this fly?
'The Vunipolas as a family were driven by opportunity (as we all are) outside of rugby without realising that rugby was pulling the strings in the background'

As I mentioned previously
It's well documented that the parents didn't want Mako & Billy to have a career in rugby.
The family were driven by two things 1. Religion 2. Education for their sons.
Pontypool couldn't supply this, but Bristol could.
Mother could start her vocation, the boys could have a fantastic education, (Mako) Millfield (13-18 yr olds, prep school in Street, Somerset) which amazingly is 50 miles away from their home...come on! and (Billy) Harrow which is what about 120 miles away!

It was only rugby that could offer the opportunity of that quality of education, it was Bristol connections that would endorse the mothers entry into the ministry
There is no doubt that the family couldn't have had these opportunities if they stayed in Pontypool

I am saying that the Vunipolas wouldn't be the world class players they are if it wasn't for English rugby and yes like DvdM, Ascombe, Parks etc its within the current rules & regs, but the only difference between e.g. Blade and Billy is timing

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eligibility rules are the same for everyone bar Wales around the late 90s and early 00s.

Care to explain this statement ?

Sure. I suppose you can get annoyed by that and rightly so. Bit clumsy of me I admit. The rules were the same. Wales just chose not to play to them!

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask thy you feel this fly?
'The Vunipolas as a family were driven by opportunity (as we all are) outside of rugby without realising that rugby was pulling the strings in the background'

As I mentioned previously
It's well documented that the parents didn't want Mako & Billy to have a career in rugby.
The family were driven by two things 1. Religion 2. Education for their sons.
Pontypool couldn't supply this, but Bristol could.
Mother could start her vocation, the boys could have a fantastic education, (Mako) Millfield (13-18 yr olds, prep school in Street, Somerset) which amazingly is 50 miles away from their home...come on! and (Billy) Harrow which is what about 120 miles away!

It was only rugby that could offer the opportunity of that quality of education, it was Bristol connections that would endorse the mothers entry into the ministry
There is no doubt that the family couldn't have had these opportunities if they stayed in Pontypool

I am saying that the Vunipolas wouldn't be the world class players they are if it wasn't for English rugby and yes like DvdM, Ascombe, Parks etc its within the current rules & regs, but the only difference between e.g. Blade and Billy is timing  

I was confused by them not realising. I think it would have been pretty obvious myself.

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

Rubbish!
You said Billy, Mako and Manu are not the same as say Blade, Duhan, Jaco, Ollie, I have provided you with an "valid opinion" that's it's very similar, the only difference is timing. You didn't like the reality of my assessment, so called it nonsense.

If you want further evidence, all you have to do is compare the background of Faletau to his cousins Mako & Billy, almost identical up to the age of 13, that will make it even more damning

At the end of the day as long as rugby at club/international level adheres to the laws, rules and regulations within the various unions then it's ok

One thing I really would like to see is that if a dual qualified player chooses a tier one nation then they still have the right to play for a tier 2 nation. using Visser as an example - a clear mercenary - he never wrapped himself in the flag but once his international career was over it would have been a boon to the netherlands had he been able to have a season or two with them afterwards

No 7&1/2 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask thy you feel this fly?
'The Vunipolas as a family were driven by opportunity (as we all are) outside of rugby without realising that rugby was pulling the strings in the background'

As I mentioned previously
It's well documented that the parents didn't want Mako & Billy to have a career in rugby.
The family were driven by two things 1. Religion 2. Education for their sons.
Pontypool couldn't supply this, but Bristol could.
Mother could start her vocation, the boys could have a fantastic education, (Mako) Millfield (13-18 yr olds, prep school in Street, Somerset) which amazingly is 50 miles away from their home...come on! and (Billy) Harrow which is what about 120 miles away!

It was only rugby that could offer the opportunity of that quality of education, it was Bristol connections that would endorse the mothers entry into the ministry
There is no doubt that the family couldn't have had these opportunities if they stayed in Pontypool

I am saying that the Vunipolas wouldn't be the world class players they are if it wasn't for English rugby and yes like DvdM, Ascombe, Parks etc its within the current rules & regs, but the only difference between e.g. Blade and Billy is timing  

I was confused by them not realising. I think it would have been pretty obvious myself.

I understand what you are saying.
Ok perhaps "realising" it might not be the correct term, lets just say for example Blade Thomson as an adult made a conscious decision driven by rugby to better his circumstances and play international rugby (coming to UK, gaining residency and playing for Scotland) where the Vunipolas didn't move to Bristol for rugby reasons at all, in fact the opposite, they went to get an education for their boys to become "professionals" outside of rugby and for the Mother to enter the church.

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask thy you feel this fly?
'The Vunipolas as a family were driven by opportunity (as we all are) outside of rugby without realising that rugby was pulling the strings in the background'

As I mentioned previously
It's well documented that the parents didn't want Mako & Billy to have a career in rugby.
The family were driven by two things 1. Religion 2. Education for their sons.
Pontypool couldn't supply this, but Bristol could.
Mother could start her vocation, the boys could have a fantastic education, (Mako) Millfield (13-18 yr olds, prep school in Street, Somerset) which amazingly is 50 miles away from their home...come on! and (Billy) Harrow which is what about 120 miles away!

It was only rugby that could offer the opportunity of that quality of education, it was Bristol connections that would endorse the mothers entry into the ministry
There is no doubt that the family couldn't have had these opportunities if they stayed in Pontypool

I am saying that the Vunipolas wouldn't be the world class players they are if it wasn't for English rugby and yes like DvdM, Ascombe, Parks etc its within the current rules & regs, but the only difference between e.g. Blade and Billy is timing  

I was confused by them not realising. I think it would have been pretty obvious myself.

I understand what you are saying.  
Ok perhaps "realising" it might not be the correct term, lets just say for example Blade Thomson as an adult made a conscious decision driven by rugby to better his circumstances and play international rugby (coming to UK, gaining residency and playing for Scotland) where the Vunipolas didn't move to Bristol for rugby reasons at all, in fact the opposite, they went to get an education for their boys to become "professionals" outside of rugby and for the Mother to enter the church.

I agree. And I think that's souls point.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eligibility rules are the same for everyone bar Wales around the late 90s and early 00s.

Care to explain this statement ?

Sure. I suppose you can get annoyed by that and rightly so. Bit clumsy of me I admit. The rules were the same. Wales just chose not to play to them!

I'm sure you're referring to Grannygate. They were dark times indeed. We're alright now, taking advantage within the rules like everyone else.

Ha! Not the age old eligibility debate. It does rankle especially with those who are obvious mercenaries, I think likes of Vuinipolas and Tuilagi exempt as been here pretty much all of life, played for England all the way through etc.
Stander is pretty obviously a mercenary, as soon as International career over straight back to home country. I rather suspect the VDM, Lowes etc be same.
Going to 5 years before qualifying helps but I think should be minimum 10 years, that would definitely help sort out those purely on a meal ticket.

However, as it stands current players are allowed as it's within laws so that's it. Unpalatable maybe but no option but to accept it.

I do think it'll be a bit odd if VDM gets selected for Lions then plays against his home country. Let's be open about this, the only reason players like him come to UK then play for a UK team is they are not deemed good enough to represent their home nation.

mountain man wrote:I do think it'll be a bit odd if VDM gets selected for Lions then plays against his home country. Let's be open about this, the only reason players like him come to UK then play for a UK team is they are not deemed good enough to represent their home nation.

Usually that's true, but in the case of VDM I think there was more to it. I think we can see he's more than good enough for international rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eligibility rules are the same for everyone bar Wales around the late 90s and early 00s.

Care to explain this statement ?

Sure. I suppose you can get annoyed by that and rightly so. Bit clumsy of me I admit. The rules were the same. Wales just chose not to play to them!

That's better. But I think you knew what you were doing, and you still do.

The rules were the same for everyone back then, and we were not the only ones exploiting them, it's just at that time, when we were just recovering from losing the best part of two generations to rugby league, and we needed to recover.

I will say it again, everybody exploited them.

Yes in fairness this 6N VDM been definitely good enough to play for SA or any team, but in most cases they don't get picked for home nation so head over here or France etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask thy you feel this fly?
'The Vunipolas as a family were driven by opportunity (as we all are) outside of rugby without realising that rugby was pulling the strings in the background'

As I mentioned previously
It's well documented that the parents didn't want Mako & Billy to have a career in rugby.
The family were driven by two things 1. Religion 2. Education for their sons.
Pontypool couldn't supply this, but Bristol could.
Mother could start her vocation, the boys could have a fantastic education, (Mako) Millfield (13-18 yr olds, prep school in Street, Somerset) which amazingly is 50 miles away from their home...come on! and (Billy) Harrow which is what about 120 miles away!

It was only rugby that could offer the opportunity of that quality of education, it was Bristol connections that would endorse the mothers entry into the ministry
There is no doubt that the family couldn't have had these opportunities if they stayed in Pontypool

I am saying that the Vunipolas wouldn't be the world class players they are if it wasn't for English rugby and yes like DvdM, Ascombe, Parks etc its within the current rules & regs, but the only difference between e.g. Blade and Billy is timing  

I was confused by them not realising. I think it would have been pretty obvious myself.

I understand what you are saying.  
Ok perhaps "realising" it might not be the correct term, lets just say for example Blade Thomson as an adult made a conscious decision driven by rugby to better his circumstances and play international rugby (coming to UK, gaining residency and playing for Scotland) where the Vunipolas didn't move to Bristol for rugby reasons at all, in fact the opposite, they went to get an education for their boys to become "professionals" outside of rugby and for the Mother to enter the church.

I agree. And I think that's souls point.

So we agree;
1. Vinupolas - The father wanted them to play for Wales (as he believed that Wales nurtured their core values), the mother didn't want them to play rugby as a career but agreed with "dad" who she wanted them to play for and yet we know that only english rugby "agenda" played a part in providing both the religion & education opportunities (when the boys were teenagers) however the payment for these opportunities is they have to move to England and they really should "consider" playing rugby for England

2. DvdM (as an e.g.) - used rugby to create his opportunities to better himself by moving to another country to play rugby

To me it's the same side of the coin, the only difference is "timing"

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

Rubbish!
You said Billy, Mako and Manu are not the same as say Blade, Duhan, Jaco, Ollie, I have provided you with an "valid opinion" that's it's very similar, the only difference is timing. You didn't like the reality of my assessment, so called it nonsense.

If you want further evidence, all you have to do is compare the background of Faletau to his cousins Mako & Billy, almost identical up to the age of 13, that will make it even more damning

At the end of the day as long as rugby at club/international level adheres to the laws, rules and regulations within the various unions then it's ok

I called it nonsense because that is exactly what it was. There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Timing is quite important despite your protestations to the contrary.

Are anyone going to give Panteg RFC any credit for the development of the Vunipola brothers ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eligibility rules are the same for everyone bar Wales around the late 90s and early 00s.

Care to explain this statement ?

Sure. I suppose you can get annoyed by that and rightly so. Bit clumsy of me I admit. The rules were the same. Wales just chose not to play to them!

That's better. But I think you knew what you were doing, and you still do.

The rules were the same for everyone back then, and we were not the only ones exploiting them, it's just at that time, when we were just recovering from losing the best part of two generations to rugby league, and we needed to recover.

I will say it again, everybody exploited them.

Its not that long ago that an England Wales match had pretty much the same number of players born in England on both sides

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Eligibility rules are the same for everyone bar Wales around the late 90s and early 00s.

Care to explain this statement ?

Sure. I suppose you can get annoyed by that and rightly so. Bit clumsy of me I admit. The rules were the same. Wales just chose not to play to them!

That's better. But I think you knew what you were doing, and you still do.

The rules were the same for everyone back then, and we were not the only ones exploiting them, it's just at that time, when we were just recovering from losing the best part of two generations to rugby league, and we needed to recover.

I will say it again, everybody exploited them.

Er no. Wales didn't exploit any rule. They cheated.

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask thy you feel this fly?
'The Vunipolas as a family were driven by opportunity (as we all are) outside of rugby without realising that rugby was pulling the strings in the background'

As I mentioned previously
It's well documented that the parents didn't want Mako & Billy to have a career in rugby.
The family were driven by two things 1. Religion 2. Education for their sons.
Pontypool couldn't supply this, but Bristol could.
Mother could start her vocation, the boys could have a fantastic education, (Mako) Millfield (13-18 yr olds, prep school in Street, Somerset) which amazingly is 50 miles away from their home...come on! and (Billy) Harrow which is what about 120 miles away!

It was only rugby that could offer the opportunity of that quality of education, it was Bristol connections that would endorse the mothers entry into the ministry
There is no doubt that the family couldn't have had these opportunities if they stayed in Pontypool

I am saying that the Vunipolas wouldn't be the world class players they are if it wasn't for English rugby and yes like DvdM, Ascombe, Parks etc its within the current rules & regs, but the only difference between e.g. Blade and Billy is timing  

I was confused by them not realising. I think it would have been pretty obvious myself.

I understand what you are saying.  
Ok perhaps "realising" it might not be the correct term, lets just say for example Blade Thomson as an adult made a conscious decision driven by rugby to better his circumstances and play international rugby (coming to UK, gaining residency and playing for Scotland) where the Vunipolas didn't move to Bristol for rugby reasons at all, in fact the opposite, they went to get an education for their boys to become "professionals" outside of rugby and for the Mother to enter the church.

I agree. And I think that's souls point.

So we agree;
1. Vinupolas - The father wanted them to play for Wales (as he believed that Wales nurtured their core values), the mother didn't want them to play rugby as a career but agreed with "dad" who she wanted them to play for and yet we know that only english rugby "agenda" played a part in providing both the religion & education opportunities (when the boys were teenagers) however the payment for these opportunities is they have to move to England and they really should "consider" playing rugby for England

2. DvdM (as an e.g.) - used rugby to create his opportunities to better himself by moving to another country to play rugby

To me it's the same side of the coin, the only difference is "timing"  

And timing can completely alter context of course.

For what its worth there are rules and players and teams work to them. Nationality is a complicated area and means so many different things to different people that it is often impossible to find a degree of agreement. I also find some of the stories around 'mercenaries' very interesting and I really don't have a problem with most of them. Flutey being a good example. I'd be very open to the idea of players being able to move from tier 1 teams to lower tier teams if dual qualified, just not the other way.

I want to see the best rugby players playing at the highest level.

lostinwales wrote:For what its worth there are rules and players and teams work to them. Nationality is a complicated area and means so many different things to different people that it is often impossible to find a degree of agreement. I also find some of the stories around 'mercenaries' very interesting and I really don't have a problem with most of them. Flutey being a good example. I'd be very open to the idea of players being able to move from tier 1 teams to lower tier teams if dual qualified, just not the other way.

I want to see the best rugby players playing at the highest level.

Fair enough but seeing a player parachuted into a team as soon as eligible then watching them with their hand on their heart singing a foreign(to them) national anthem is a bit rich.
Anyway, it's in the laws all teams do it apart from I think Argentina and one or two others(?) so that's it.

Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Er no. Wales didn't exploit any rule. They cheated.

Wales were not the only ones.

Google Dave Hilton and Scotland just for starters. Keep digging, and you will find a lot more.

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

We will never know whether he would have made the Springbok squad. Players make choices in their career which they believe will benefit them, whether it be only money, not believing they will make it in their home country etc.

So the question remains, is it SA’s loss?

Considering he left at a very young age as a professional just starting his career he made the decision to leave before he proved himself in Super Rugby and therefor never were in contention for the Springboks (yes he did play SA age group rugby)

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

TBH, and this is just my opinion, but if the politics in SA were different, for want of a better word, I think he would be playing for SA.

Do Scotland have an academy in SA though ? I ask this seriously, as they seem to have a lot of players from that country in Scotland.

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

Rubbish!
You said Billy, Mako and Manu are not the same as say Blade, Duhan, Jaco, Ollie, I have provided you with an "valid opinion" that's it's very similar, the only difference is timing. You didn't like the reality of my assessment, so called it nonsense.

If you want further evidence, all you have to do is compare the background of Faletau to his cousins Mako & Billy, almost identical up to the age of 13, that will make it even more damning

At the end of the day as long as rugby at club/international level adheres to the laws, rules and regulations within the various unions then it's ok

I called it nonsense because that is exactly what it was. There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Timing is quite important despite your protestations to the contrary.

There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Strewth that beggars belief
Do you want to compare Stander v Tuilagi
CJ Stander 30
Will have been in Ireland for 10 years, he didn't have to go to Munster as he was called up to train with the SA squad and a first team player for the Bulls at 19, however he honoured his commitment. He has given his heart and soul for Irish rugby, he's integrated into the community to such an extent that was made the first international ambassador for Limerick. He is not moving onto bigger and better things in rugby he's retiring because he has a young family who don't see much of him, he's going back to the country of his birth not anywhere else, he's going back because his wife is SA and she wants to go back. That's not being a mercenary
Manu Tuilagi 29
Was told to come to UK by his brothers at 15, played in Cardiff, then moved to Leicester where was for 10 years, refused a pay cut he was on £550k pa (because if the corona virus), moved to Sale for a year and now looks like he will be going to Paris 92, where he almost went 2-3 years ago, in 2017 went to see a witch doctor ( the witch doctor claimed to have found three spirits had married Tuilagi and were causing the injuries). I won't even try to compare Tuilagi rugby or his external discipline record to Stander or what he has given to the Leicester community compared to Standers integration with the local and international Irish area.

Now who is the mercenary?

I have to say that Duhan has annoyed me much as i want such a good player playing for my country I also want guys who are committed to the country and who live in it and make it their home

I saw a really good interview with Nel about this. Basically he is really conflicted about what to do when he retires. He has family back in SA but he is very settled here and IIRC his kids have grown up here so he is being pulled both ways but more likely to stay in Scotland

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

We will never know whether he would have made the Springbok squad. Players make choices in their career which they believe will benefit them, whether it be only money, not believing they will make it in their home country etc.

So the question remains, is it SA’s loss?

Considering he left at a very young age as a professional just starting his career he made the decision to leave before he proved himself in Super Rugby and therefor never were in contention for the Springboks (yes he did play SA age group rugby)

True, but looking at him now you don't think he would have got a few caps? Montpellier wasn't really a good choice career-wise. Was there any interest in somebody, Billionaire Bulls for example, wanting to bring him home? Had he been back in SA I have no doubt he would have been in Super Rugby at some point. I get the feeling he would have been moved into the centre though.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Er no. Wales didn't exploit any rule. They cheated.

Wales were not the only ones.

Google Dave Hilton and Scotland just for starters. Keep digging, and you will find a lot more.

Never knew about hilton cheers.  So Scotland got away with it like Wales did.

Not sure pointing out Wales cheated back then is against the rules of the forum especially given the conversation though LD.

Do Scotland have an academy in SA though ? I ask this seriously, as they seem to have a lot of players from that country in Scotland

We have a scouting team that looks worldwide for players

Waht i think has happened tho is that Scotland both as an international side and the two scots teams have a good reputation for looking after players and for being good places to play so are attractive to come to. See also the fijians who have played for Glasgow and Edinburgh - thats at least party on the back of the tour we had to Fiji a decades( ??) ago.

Its also of course that with our smaller player pool its more likely you will get a good international career

Where do you place Tommy Seymour in all this? US born, played in ireland but didn't get an international callup which he wanted so he moved to Scotland and did get the callup

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

Rubbish!
You said Billy, Mako and Manu are not the same as say Blade, Duhan, Jaco, Ollie, I have provided you with an "valid opinion" that's it's very similar, the only difference is timing. You didn't like the reality of my assessment, so called it nonsense.

If you want further evidence, all you have to do is compare the background of Faletau to his cousins Mako & Billy, almost identical up to the age of 13, that will make it even more damning

At the end of the day as long as rugby at club/international level adheres to the laws, rules and regulations within the various unions then it's ok

I called it nonsense because that is exactly what it was. There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Timing is quite important despite your protestations to the contrary.

There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Strewth that beggars belief
Do you want to compare Stander v Tuilagi
CJ Stander 30
Will have been in Ireland for 10 years, he didn't have to go to Munster as he was called up to train with the SA squad and a first team player for the Bulls at 19, however he honoured his commitment. He has given his heart and soul for Irish rugby, he's integrated into the community to such an extent that was made the first international ambassador for Limerick. He is not moving onto bigger and better things in rugby he's retiring because he has a young family who don't see much of him, he's going back to the country of his birth not anywhere else, he's going back because his wife is SA and she wants to go back. That's not being a mercenary
Manu Tuilagi 29
Was told to come to UK by his brothers at 15, played in Cardiff, then moved to Leicester where was for 10 years, refused a pay cut he was on £550k pa (because if the corona virus), moved to Sale for a year and now looks like he will be going to Paris 92, where he almost went 2-3 years ago, in 2017 went to see a witch doctor ( the witch doctor claimed to have found three spirits had married Tuilagi and were causing the injuries). I won't even try to compare Tuilagi rugby or his external discipline record to Stander or what he has given to the Leicester community compared to Standers integration with the local and international Irish area.

Now who is the mercenary?

There are varying degrees of being a mercenary to be frank.

It can be said that almost every professional athlete is a mercenary. There are exceptions to the rule, a guy like Juan Smit played his entire career for the Cheetahs, only sfter serious ijnury at the end of his career did he make a comeback and went to France for a couple of years.

The epitome of a loyal player, not just playing for money.

These days professional players look after themselves and their financial future first.

To my mind Stander used the excuse that Jake White suggested he is to small for international rugby as a scapegoat.

Hetook the opportunity that he believed would bring him money and international glory. Some would suggest he is a mercenary, and considering he is retiring to SA (which suggests where his love lies) as confirmation of him being a mercenary. I for one don’t blame him for being a mercenary, but a mercenary he is. To what degree is open to interpretation.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

TBH, and this is just my opinion, but if the politics in SA were different, for want of a better word, I think he would be playing for SA.

Do Scotland have an academy in SA though ? I ask this seriously, as they seem to have a lot of players from that country in Scotland.

Yeah probably.

I don't think so, Cockers has been good at bringing in players who can improve Edinburgh. South Africans happen to be good at rugby and looking for work.
I think Jake White had set something up like that when he was Montpellier coach. I still don't think he is well liked by some back in SA.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

Rubbish!
You said Billy, Mako and Manu are not the same as say Blade, Duhan, Jaco, Ollie, I have provided you with an "valid opinion" that's it's very similar, the only difference is timing. You didn't like the reality of my assessment, so called it nonsense.

If you want further evidence, all you have to do is compare the background of Faletau to his cousins Mako & Billy, almost identical up to the age of 13, that will make it even more damning

At the end of the day as long as rugby at club/international level adheres to the laws, rules and regulations within the various unions then it's ok

I called it nonsense because that is exactly what it was. There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Timing is quite important despite your protestations to the contrary.

There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Strewth that beggars belief
Do you want to compare Stander v Tuilagi
CJ Stander 30
Will have been in Ireland for 10 years, he didn't have to go to Munster as he was called up to train with the SA squad and a first team player for the Bulls at 19, however he honoured his commitment. He has given his heart and soul for Irish rugby, he's integrated into the community to such an extent that was made the first international ambassador for Limerick. He is not moving onto bigger and better things in rugby he's retiring because he has a young family who don't see much of him, he's going back to the country of his birth not anywhere else, he's going back because his wife is SA and she wants to go back. That's not being a mercenary
Manu Tuilagi 29
Was told to come to UK by his brothers at 15, played in Cardiff, then moved to Leicester where was for 10 years, refused a pay cut he was on £550k pa (because if the corona virus), moved to Sale for a year and now looks like he will be going to Paris 92, where he almost went 2-3 years ago, in 2017 went to see a witch doctor ( the witch doctor claimed to have found three spirits had married Tuilagi and were causing the injuries). I won't even try to compare Tuilagi rugby or his external discipline record to Stander or what he has given to the Leicester community compared to Standers integration with the local and international Irish area.

Now who is the mercenary?

Not personally knowing either person you'd be much more likely to say stander.

Duhan - he was injured and out of contract when he came to Edinburgh. He actually failed his medical but cockers took a punt. He might well have been lost to rugby alltogether otherwise. It was more than 6 months after he was signed he played his first game and IIRC he had hardly played for 2 years before that due to injury.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

We will never know whether he would have made the Springbok squad. Players make choices in their career which they believe will benefit them, whether it be only money, not believing they will make it in their home country etc.

So the question remains, is it SA’s loss?

Considering he left at a very young age as a professional just starting his career he made the decision to leave before he proved himself in Super Rugby and therefor never were in contention for the Springboks (yes he did play SA age group rugby)

True, but looking at him now you don't think he would have got a few caps? Montpellier wasn't really a good choice career-wise. Was there any interest in somebody, Billionaire Bulls for example, wanting to bring him home? Had he been back in SA I have no doubt he would have been in Super Rugby at some point. I get the feeling he would have been moved into the centre though.

I haven’t seen any articles on him being sought in SA Super Rugby sides. Getting caps for SA, probably, would he have been a regular, no idea.

Will you guys stop bickering? it stinks up the forum and both of you look like diddies

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

Rubbish!
You said Billy, Mako and Manu are not the same as say Blade, Duhan, Jaco, Ollie, I have provided you with an "valid opinion" that's it's very similar, the only difference is timing. You didn't like the reality of my assessment, so called it nonsense.

If you want further evidence, all you have to do is compare the background of Faletau to his cousins Mako & Billy, almost identical up to the age of 13, that will make it even more damning

At the end of the day as long as rugby at club/international level adheres to the laws, rules and regulations within the various unions then it's ok

I called it nonsense because that is exactly what it was. There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Timing is quite important despite your protestations to the contrary.

There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Strewth that beggars belief
Do you want to compare Stander v Tuilagi
CJ Stander 30
Will have been in Ireland for 10 years, he didn't have to go to Munster as he was called up to train with the SA squad and a first team player for the Bulls at 19, however he honoured his commitment. He has given his heart and soul for Irish rugby, he's integrated into the community to such an extent that was made the first international ambassador for Limerick. He is not moving onto bigger and better things in rugby he's retiring because he has a young family who don't see much of him, he's going back to the country of his birth not anywhere else, he's going back because his wife is SA and she wants to go back. That's not being a mercenary
Manu Tuilagi 29
Was told to come to UK by his brothers at 15, played in Cardiff, then moved to Leicester where was for 10 years, refused a pay cut he was on £550k pa (because if the corona virus), moved to Sale for a year and now looks like he will be going to Paris 92, where he almost went 2-3 years ago, in 2017 went to see a witch doctor ( the witch doctor claimed to have found three spirits had married Tuilagi and were causing the injuries). I won't even try to compare Tuilagi rugby or his external discipline record to Stander or what he has given to the Leicester community compared to Standers integration with the local and international Irish area.

Now who is the mercenary?

That all just proves that Stander is indeed a mercenary, all of your posts are emphasising my own point so bravo. Tuilagi came up through the English system whereas Stander came up through the South African, please keep digging that rather large hole.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

TBH, and this is just my opinion, but if the politics in SA were different, for want of a better word, I think he would be playing for SA.

Do Scotland have an academy in SA though ? I ask this seriously, as they seem to have a lot of players from that country in Scotland.

Yeah probably.

I don't think so, Cockers has been good at bringing in players who can improve Edinburgh. South Africans happen to be good at rugby and looking for work.
I think Jake White had set something up like that when he was Montpellier coach. I still don't think he is well liked by some back in SA.

I have very little time of love for Jake White, he set up the same pathway for SA players to Australia when he coached the Brumbies in Australia.

One thing Jake White is not, is a coach that develop players, he buys a roster. he did that at the Brumbies, Montpellier, and is now doing it at the Bulls. I have no doubt in my mind he hasn’t got any inclination of developing players.

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

TBH, and this is just my opinion, but if the politics in SA were different, for want of a better word, I think he would be playing for SA.

Do Scotland have an academy in SA though ? I ask this seriously, as they seem to have a lot of players from that country in Scotland.

Damn our cunning plan has been caught out
Scotland have 4, Nel, Kebble, vd Walt, vd Merwe.
Ireland have 3, Herring, Roux, Stander
France have 2, le Roux, Willemse
England have 0 (Hartleys been booted out)
Wales have 0

I mean we have so many SA's compared to any other 6Ns side, it's quite unfair to all the other squads

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Er no. Wales didn't exploit any rule. They cheated.

Your seriously struggling to hide your agenda these days. Wales were not the only ones.

Google Dave Hilton and Scotland just for starters. Keep digging, and you will find a lot more.

How the MODS allow your behaviour on here without reprieve god only knows.

Never knew about hilton cheers.  So Scotland got away with it like Wales did.

Not sure pointing out Wales cheated back then is against the rules of the forum especially given the conversation though LD.

I can't remember the name buit there was a 'Scottish' 2nd row who seem to have got capped based on being seen in a crowd wearing a Scottish scarf. Also worthwhile pointing out that the fact that other teams did it does not make Wale's record in this respect any better. Infact their record in this case is particularly bad.

Worked it out now. Andy Reed.

Oldman

As per my post above Duhan was injured and out of contract and had played very little rugby for a year or two - his career was resurrected by coming to Edinburgh. Its quite possible he would have been lost to rugby hed he not made the move

From Wiki

After the Varsity Cup, Van der Merwe made his domestic first class debut for the Blue Bulls in the 2016 Currie Cup qualification series. He made an appearance as a replacement in a 14–19 defeat to the Eastern Province Kings,[39] and made his first start a week later against the Pumas,[40] which would be his final action in a Blue Bulls shirt.
2016–2017 : Montpellier

He moved to France in July 2016 to join Top 14 side Montpellier, signing a youth contract with the team.[41] He made his debut for the senior team in their Round 15 match against Pau, replacing Joffrey Michel.[42] A recurring hip injury, and difficulties adjusting to the culture and language, meant he gained little game time.[43]
2017–present : Edinburgh

Van der Merwe signed a two-year professional contract with Scottish Pro14 side Edinburgh ahead of the 2017-18 season.[44] He failed his medical due to a long-standing hip injury, but Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill signed him despite this.[45] The injury meant he missed half his first season. However, his impact thereafter was strong. One area of improvement was seeking to get more involved in the game, from his wing position.[46]

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:You spent a lot of time there writing a load of nonsense that has no relevance to the argument at all. You'll be giving WAHS a run for his money soon.

The old adage
“When the debate is lost, abuse becomes the tool of the loser.”

You chose to morph the debate into something it isn't at which point it wasn't worth continuing with.

Rubbish!
You said Billy, Mako and Manu are not the same as say Blade, Duhan, Jaco, Ollie, I have provided you with an "valid opinion" that's it's very similar, the only difference is timing. You didn't like the reality of my assessment, so called it nonsense.

If you want further evidence, all you have to do is compare the background of Faletau to his cousins Mako & Billy, almost identical up to the age of 13, that will make it even more damning

At the end of the day as long as rugby at club/international level adheres to the laws, rules and regulations within the various unions then it's ok

I called it nonsense because that is exactly what it was. There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Timing is quite important despite your protestations to the contrary.

There is zero comparison between two players who have played all of their professional rugby in a single country and international mercenaries. Stander isn't even staying in Ireland which shows what his motivation was and is.

Strewth that beggars belief
Do you want to compare Stander v Tuilagi
CJ Stander 30
Will have been in Ireland for 10 years, he didn't have to go to Munster as he was called up to train with the SA squad and a first team player for the Bulls at 19, however he honoured his commitment. He has given his heart and soul for Irish rugby, he's integrated into the community to such an extent that was made the first international ambassador for Limerick. He is not moving onto bigger and better things in rugby he's retiring because he has a young family who don't see much of him, he's going back to the country of his birth not anywhere else, he's going back because his wife is SA and she wants to go back. That's not being a mercenary
Manu Tuilagi 29
Was told to come to UK by his brothers at 15, played in Cardiff, then moved to Leicester where was for 10 years, refused a pay cut he was on £550k pa (because if the corona virus), moved to Sale for a year and now looks like he will be going to Paris 92, where he almost went 2-3 years ago, in 2017 went to see a witch doctor ( the witch doctor claimed to have found three spirits had married Tuilagi and were causing the injuries). I won't even try to compare Tuilagi rugby or his external discipline record to Stander or what he has given to the Leicester community compared to Standers integration with the local and international Irish area.

Now who is the mercenary?

That all just proves that Stander is indeed a mercenary, all of your posts are emphasising my own point so bravo. Tuilagi came up through the English system whereas Stander came up through the South African, please keep digging that rather large hole.

I'm sorry where in your mind, does Tuilagi arriving at 15/16 on advice of his brothers, then at 27 leaving his loyal club just for the "money" then leaving his current club just for the "money"at 29 to play in another country just for the "money" compared to Stander arriving at 19/20, giving his all to the Limerick/Munster/Ireland cause both on and off the rugby field and retiring to go back to his country of birth due to family commitments. Where in your mind can you see Stander being the mercenary

There's only one hole being dug

TJ wrote:Oldman

As per my post above Duhan was injured and out of contract and had played very little rugby for a year or two - his career was resurrected by coming to Edinburgh.  Its quite possible he would have been lost to rugby hed he not made the move

From Wiki

After the Varsity Cup, Van der Merwe made his domestic first class debut for the Blue Bulls in the 2016 Currie Cup qualification series. He made an appearance as a replacement in a 14–19 defeat to the Eastern Province Kings,[39] and made his first start a week later against the Pumas,[40] which would be his final action in a Blue Bulls shirt.
2016–2017 : Montpellier

He moved to France in July 2016 to join Top 14 side Montpellier, signing a youth contract with the team.[41] He made his debut for the senior team in their Round 15 match against Pau, replacing Joffrey Michel.[42] A recurring hip injury, and difficulties adjusting to the culture and language, meant he gained little game time.[43]
2017–present : Edinburgh

Van der Merwe signed a two-year professional contract with Scottish Pro14 side Edinburgh ahead of the 2017-18 season.[44] He failed his medical due to a long-standing hip injury, but Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill signed him despite this.[45] The injury meant he missed half his first season. However, his impact thereafter was strong. One area of improvement was seeking to get more involved in the game, from his wing position.[46]

Yes, he made the decision to move to Scotland, whether he tried to get another contract in SA is unknown, hence whether he would have made the regular starting lin up in the Boks is unknown, so is it SA’s loss?

The same can be said for the other SA players who left, lets take Stander as an example, he was good enough to represent Ireland, yet the competition for backrow selection in SA is one of the toughest to break through, so his decision to move to Ireland could have been motivated by the theory of how water flows (it seeks the path of least resistance)

flyhalffactory wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

TBH, and this is just my opinion, but if the politics in SA were different, for want of a better word, I think he would be playing for SA.

Do Scotland have an academy in SA though ? I ask this seriously, as they seem to have a lot of players from that country in Scotland.

Damn our cunning plan has been caught out
Scotland have 4, Nel, Kebble, vd Walt, vd Merwe.
Ireland have 3, Herring, Roux, Stander
France have 2, le Roux, Willemse
England have 0 (Hartleys been booted out)
Wales have 0

I mean we have so many SA's compared to any other 6Ns side, it's quite unfair to all the other squads

No not just the internationals, Glasgow and Edinburgh have a few as well don't they ? Also, over the past decade there has been a lot of SA players in and out of the Scottish system.

Just asking thats all, no need to get all flyhalffactory over it.

Tuilagi was 12 when he moved to England whilst Stander moved at 22 as a fully fledged professional player. You think the situations are similar?

Have you deliberately altered their ages to try and paint a different picture?

LordDowlais wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Well VDM is SA's loss. I think he has shown that he is good enough play for them. As far as I know they've never had a flanker play on the wing, so it would have been interesting to see the extra dimension he brought to the Boks!

TBH, and this is just my opinion, but if the politics in SA were different, for want of a better word, I think he would be playing for SA.

Do Scotland have an academy in SA though ? I ask this seriously, as they seem to have a lot of players from that country in Scotland.

Damn our cunning plan has been caught out
Scotland have 4, Nel, Kebble, vd Walt, vd Merwe.
Ireland have 3, Herring, Roux, Stander
France have 2, le Roux, Willemse
England have 0 (Hartleys been booted out)
Wales have 0

I mean we have so many SA's compared to any other 6Ns side, it's quite unfair to all the other squads

No not just the internationals, Glasgow and Edinburgh have a few as well don't they ? Also, over the past decade there has been a lot of SA players in and out of the Scottish system.

Just asking thats all, no need to get all flyhalffactory over it.

Soul Requiem wrote:Tuilagi was 12 when he moved to England whilst Stander moved at 22 as a fully fledged professional player. You think the situations are similar?

Have you deliberately altered their ages to try and paint a different picture?

Prove to us he moved to England

He moved to the UK to join his brothers, and began playing youth rugby in 2004 with Rumney RFC while living in Cardiff, when his brother Freddie was playing for the Cardiff Blues. Aged 15, he moved back to Leicester, joining the Leicester Tigers academy.

Stander 30, signed a contract 9 months before he arrived in Ireland in 2012 (he actually wasn't even 22 at the time when he arrived, even though Stander said he was a young 22 now), so that would make him 21

So I'll amend that Stander 21/22 in Ireland, Tuilagi 15/16 in England that's a 6 year difference

As we are in the realms of transparency, Stander is going back because his wife & young daughter went back to Cape Town before the lockdown, this is nothing to do with him being a mercenary....as the irish players have said he would have stayed in Ireland if he wasn't pining for his wife and child for over a year.

Mercenary my foot

'Moved back to Leicester '

Case closed, thank you.