Lions Watch: Six Nations Report

by whatahitson Sun 14 Mar - 17:08

First topic message reminder :

Well we're nearly done with the Six Nations so if the Lions goes ahead who do you like the look of and who do you think will be touring?

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 5 Apr - 9:21

"What does that say about Northampton"

It would say they are pretty poor. They've picked up a little of late, but pretty sure they have more "covid wins" than actual wins this season.

by flyhalffactory Mon 5 Apr - 9:27

Good Morning (The Oracle) Mate
Firstly the Dragons are looking a totally different squad this season.
Secondly great assessment, especially the Scarlets being in a bubble, could be a reason they played poorly, but as you said it doesn't affect Leinster

by **BigGee** Mon 5 Apr - 9:34

I think all the Scottish players who came back into the club teams this week probably needed a week off in all honesty and in normal times, after the end of the 6N, they would have got that.

The scheduling certainly did not do us and favours and it would have been a big ask to get a result in Montpellier or Paris in the best of times.

Neither of our teams really deserved to progress from what we have seen this season. We just need to put it to bed now and hopefully get ourselves in some sort of shape for next year.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 5 Apr - 10:20

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"What does that say about Northampton"

It would say they are pretty poor. They've picked up a little of late, but pretty sure they have more "covid wins" than actual wins this season.

Come on Sarge, Saints have only benefitted 2-1 on the cancelled games and both games were ones they were likely to win. They are 5th in the table because they have found how to win and stopped throwing away games in the last 10 minutes. They have won away at Exeter and Wasps, twice lost to Bristol by a single score with The Bears scoring in the last couple of minutes. They have probably picked up more losing bonus points than any other side with the closeness of the scores.

Against Dragons, they had 14 players out either injured or rested. I saw a team of missing players put together and it would have made a pretty good 1st XV.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 5 Apr - 10:55

My mistake then WPI....I could have sworn they'd had a lot more wins via cancellations.

by doctor_grey Mon 5 Apr - 11:16

Sgt_Pooly wrote:My mistake then WPI....I could have sworn they'd had a lot more wins via cancellations.

Saints have indeed been poor, and last season was one of the worst I can recall, including the relegation season. But they are turning around the performances this season with, in general, a very young squad. As the esteemed WPI says we have 2 wins and one loss in Covid games, while are 7-7 in games actually played. And the key has been not finding new and creative ways to give away leads late on.

However, no apology is sufficient for the sacrilege you just perpetrated! Next season when we can have cans in the stands you must come to the Gardens, go out to the middle of the pitch before a match and sing "Oh when the Saints......". 15500 people will help serenade you.

by **JuliusHMarx** Mon 5 Apr - 12:00

I've found over the years that the posters who don't treat others with respect are often the ones that get most insulted, and then often play the victim card. You can read whatever you like into that.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 5 Apr - 12:04

Let's get things back onto rugby thumbsup

by whatahitson Mon 5 Apr - 12:14

alive555 wrote:This was a disgraceful post. Utterly one sided drivel. I also stopped reading it was such obvious nonsense whereby every win was a bit lucky, and every loss was well deserved. And all presented as though reasoned fact.

He then claimed a min of 1 scot in the entire squad. Very generous of him.

That's because it is. You may dislike it but it's well-reasoned and factual.

Scotland's results have been inferior to the other three teams for 20 years. They are clearly the worst team out of the home nations on a collective basis and, unsurprisingly, they also produce the worst players out of the 4 home nations which means their representation on the Lions tours is the smallest. Worst is relative in this sense but it's also fair. My opinion is that this is not going to change any time soon, even with the massive introduction of foreign raised and trained rugby players injected in to the professional set up in Scotland over the last 5-7 years. This isn't an uncommon opinion, well over half the people I know involved in the professional game in rugby echo something similar to this on the basis that England have the potential to be one of the best teams in the world for a long time to come, and Wales and Ireland are good 'low end' tier 1 teams as well who are competitive enough. Scotland are struggling, which is reflected by dropping below Italy at U20 level. They have finally introduced some good and necessary grassroots measures in the last 10 years to try to catch up but they were left behind by professionalism in a big way. To what extent those measures pay off is another matter entirely.

Again, my opinion is the Scottish national team are not suddenly going to turn the corner in the next 12-18 months and become the equal of Ireland or Wales, let alone England, given how competitive it is to keep in touch with these teams. One off wins and then desperately trying to argue that Scotland were close to a Grand Slam is wishful thinking at its worst that they are in touch with these teams. Scotland's answer to the problem so far has literally been to pick a raft of non-Scots from the southern hemisphere and they're still 4th out of 4 (worst performance of the 4 at the RWC 2019). The only reason no one comes out and publicly states this in the media is (as we've seen in this thread) the Scottish fans are passionate and often quite wealthy and are a major stakeholder in the game in Europe and absolutely do not want to hear that they are in the mire. They want to believe that things are just about to get better and in some ways I don't blame then. I sympathise with them on the one hand that they have been left behind in the professional era but on the other hand, the Scots are being pandered to with constant hope that turns in to perpetual false dawns precisely because rugby cannot afford to alienate Scotland on an economic basis. Scotland are an important cog in the machine of the six nations, the Lions, and European rugby. If the fans disappear then the whole of Europe, in particular the UK, suffers. I've also spoken to one well known English pundit who has been very happy to criticise the Welsh and Irish over the last 10-15 years and he said words to the effect of: "if I did the same (tell them they're rubbish on twitter) to the Scots it would be too close to the bone."

Only 1 Scot is guaranteed to make the squad, that's impossible to argue with. That's Hogg. The next best players - Duhan VDM, Watson - have tough competition and though there are likely to be at least 2 more Scots in the main squad, no individual player is guaranteed to make the squad. In contrast, Wales, England, and Ireland probably have about 3-4 guaranteed players each - the likes of Curry, Farrell, Itoje; Furlong, Beirne, Henshaw; Liam Williams, Faletau, Ken Owens...etc.

If something upsets you because you invest emotional energy in to it, that doesn't make it disagraceful let alone untrue.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 5 Apr - 12:19

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Let's get things back onto rugby

Let's not derail this....no more warnings.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 5 Apr - 12:26

I know he hasn't shown it before but there's a chance that Gatland is taking into account club games. He rocked up to the watch Harlequins Bristol and there are a few English players showing more form than those who played in 6ns. May well have been checking out Marler or another look at speedy.

by LordDowlais Mon 5 Apr - 13:11

I've been away most of the weekend sorting the holiday residence out now that we can travel again. I have just had a bit of a catch up on here and am surprised the direction this thread has taken.

Just for people to know, a lot of young Welsh talent have been spotted, and offered placements at some of these schools that have been mentioned on here, we then get tarred with the old Welsh nicking English players nonsense.

There is a hell of a lot of young Welsh players in the English set-up, but they are Welsh, not English. Interesting reading on the WWW if you are willing to look for it:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-look-poaching-exceptional-welsh-14955029

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-bids-17514334

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/43294753

by flyhalffactory Mon 5 Apr - 13:11

whatahitson wrote:That's because it is. You may dislike it but it's well-reasoned and factual.

Its factual but not accurate, it's at best, cherry picking facts. Your assessment is fundamentally flawed due to your inherent bias, by your very nature you just can't see it.

Just on 2021 alone
Fra 23 - 27 Sco. Deserved victory against the "overwhelming favourites
Sco 52 - 10 Ita. This was the best aggregate win against Italy of all the others
Sco 24 - 27 Ire. We deserved to lose, sluggish from start, lineout awful, inaccurate off the tee. Yet only a 77 min pen won it
Sco 24 - 25 Wal. ONE POINT with 14 men for the best part of the 2nd half and a try dubiously disallowed
Eng 6 - 11 Sco. Travesty that we didn't put another 20 plus points on the board
The only result that didn't reflect Scotland performance was the England game where we had total dominance in every facet of the game. Where on earth can you take from 2021 performances that Scotland are not on par with Wales/Ireland/France and clearly our dominance of England (from a win basis) continues. On a better day we could have been GS champs not ending up 4th

We could look at 2020 but that would just emphasis the progress Scotland were and are making

To say Hogg is the only definite, then state Farrell is a definite to go (based on 2021) just beggars belief

by alive555 Mon 5 Apr - 13:15

whatahitson wrote:
alive555 wrote:This was a disgraceful post. Utterly one sided drivel. I also stopped reading it was such obvious nonsense whereby every win was a bit lucky, and every loss was well deserved. And all presented as though reasoned fact.

He then claimed a min of 1 scot in the entire squad. Very generous of him.

That's because it is. You may dislike it but it's well-reasoned and factual.

Scotland's results have been inferior to the other three teams for 20 years. They are clearly the worst team out of the home nations on a collective basis and, unsurprisingly, they also produce the worst players out of the 4 home nations which means their representation on the Lions tours is the smallest. Worst is relative in this sense but it's also fair. My opinion is that this is not going to change any time soon, even with the massive introduction of foreign raised and trained rugby players injected in to the professional set up in Scotland over the last 5-7 years. This isn't an uncommon opinion, well over half the people I know involved in the professional game in rugby echo something similar to this on the basis that England have the potential to be one of the best teams in the world for a long time to come, and Wales and Ireland are good 'low end' tier 1 teams as well who are competitive enough. Scotland are struggling, which is reflected by dropping below Italy at U20 level. They have finally introduced some good and necessary grassroots measures in the last 10 years to try to catch up but they were left behind by professionalism in a big way. To what extent those measures pay off is another matter entirely.

Again, my opinion is the Scottish national team are not suddenly going to turn the corner in the next 12-18 months and become the equal of Ireland or Wales, let alone England, given how competitive it is to keep in touch with these teams. One off wins and then desperately trying to argue that Scotland were close to a Grand Slam is wishful thinking at its worst that they are in touch with these teams. Scotland's answer to the problem so far has literally been to pick a raft of non-Scots from the southern hemisphere and they're still 4th out of 4 (worst performance of the 4 at the RWC 2019). The only reason no one comes out and publicly states this in the media is (as we've seen in this thread) the Scottish fans are passionate and often quite wealthy and are a major stakeholder in the game in Europe and absolutely do not want to hear that they are in the mire. They want to believe that things are just about to get better and in some ways I don't blame then. I sympathise with them on the one hand that they have been left behind in the professional era but on the other hand, the Scots are being pandered to with constant hope that turns in to perpetual false dawns precisely because rugby cannot afford to alienate Scotland on an economic basis. Scotland are an important cog in the machine of the six nations, the Lions, and European rugby. If the fans disappear then the whole of Europe, in particular the UK, suffers. I've also spoken to one well known English pundit who has been very happy to criticise the Welsh and Irish over the last 10-15 years and he said words to the effect of: "if I did the same (tell them they're rubbish on twitter) to the Scots it would be too close to the bone."

Only 1 Scot is guaranteed to make the squad, that's impossible to argue with. That's Hogg. The next best players - Duhan VDM, Watson - have tough competition and though there are likely to be at least 2 more Scots in the main squad, no individual player is guaranteed to make the squad. In contrast, Wales, England, and Ireland probably have about 3-4 guaranteed players each - the likes of Curry, Farrell, Itoje; Furlong, Beirne, Henshaw; Liam Williams, Faletau, Ken Owens...etc.

If something upsets you because you invest emotional energy in to it, that doesn't make it disagraceful let alone untrue.

Ok then.

Like to hear your "opinion" of how England managed ;-

- 50% fewer championship points than Scotland
- 50% fewer tries than Scotland
- far fewer carries than Scotland
- far fewer metres made than Scotland
- far fewer turnovers than Scotland
- didnt have the highest try scorer (Scotland did)
- didnt have the 6 nations player of the year (Scotland did)

Make it "reasoned and factual", as always:)

This will be funny.

by LordDowlais Mon 5 Apr - 13:15

flyhalffactory wrote:Sco 24 - 25 Wal. ONE POINT with 14 men for the best part of the 2nd half and a dubious try disallowed

Seriously, you keep banging on about this, but it is a load of tripe.

Wales on that day left about 20points on the filed. Also, dubious try disallowed ? The on field decision was no try as the player was held up, that's just for starters, then when they were checking they saw the obvious foul play.

At worst for that incident, Scotland lost out on a 5mtr scrum.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 5 Apr - 13:21

alive555 wrote:
whatahitson wrote:
alive555 wrote:This was a disgraceful post. Utterly one sided drivel. I also stopped reading it was such obvious nonsense whereby every win was a bit lucky, and every loss was well deserved. And all presented as though reasoned fact.

He then claimed a min of 1 scot in the entire squad. Very generous of him.

That's because it is. You may dislike it but it's well-reasoned and factual.

Scotland's results have been inferior to the other three teams for 20 years. They are clearly the worst team out of the home nations on a collective basis and, unsurprisingly, they also produce the worst players out of the 4 home nations which means their representation on the Lions tours is the smallest. Worst is relative in this sense but it's also fair. My opinion is that this is not going to change any time soon, even with the massive introduction of foreign raised and trained rugby players injected in to the professional set up in Scotland over the last 5-7 years. This isn't an uncommon opinion, well over half the people I know involved in the professional game in rugby echo something similar to this on the basis that England have the potential to be one of the best teams in the world for a long time to come, and Wales and Ireland are good 'low end' tier 1 teams as well who are competitive enough. Scotland are struggling, which is reflected by dropping below Italy at U20 level. They have finally introduced some good and necessary grassroots measures in the last 10 years to try to catch up but they were left behind by professionalism in a big way. To what extent those measures pay off is another matter entirely.

Again, my opinion is the Scottish national team are not suddenly going to turn the corner in the next 12-18 months and become the equal of Ireland or Wales, let alone England, given how competitive it is to keep in touch with these teams. One off wins and then desperately trying to argue that Scotland were close to a Grand Slam is wishful thinking at its worst that they are in touch with these teams. Scotland's answer to the problem so far has literally been to pick a raft of non-Scots from the southern hemisphere and they're still 4th out of 4 (worst performance of the 4 at the RWC 2019). The only reason no one comes out and publicly states this in the media is (as we've seen in this thread) the Scottish fans are passionate and often quite wealthy and are a major stakeholder in the game in Europe and absolutely do not want to hear that they are in the mire. They want to believe that things are just about to get better and in some ways I don't blame then. I sympathise with them on the one hand that they have been left behind in the professional era but on the other hand, the Scots are being pandered to with constant hope that turns in to perpetual false dawns precisely because rugby cannot afford to alienate Scotland on an economic basis. Scotland are an important cog in the machine of the six nations, the Lions, and European rugby. If the fans disappear then the whole of Europe, in particular the UK, suffers. I've also spoken to one well known English pundit who has been very happy to criticise the Welsh and Irish over the last 10-15 years and he said words to the effect of: "if I did the same (tell them they're rubbish on twitter) to the Scots it would be too close to the bone."

Only 1 Scot is guaranteed to make the squad, that's impossible to argue with. That's Hogg. The next best players - Duhan VDM, Watson - have tough competition and though there are likely to be at least 2 more Scots in the main squad, no individual player is guaranteed to make the squad. In contrast, Wales, England, and Ireland probably have about 3-4 guaranteed players each - the likes of Curry, Farrell, Itoje; Furlong, Beirne, Henshaw; Liam Williams, Faletau, Ken Owens...etc.

If something upsets you because you invest emotional energy in to it, that doesn't make it disagraceful let alone untrue.

Ok then.

Like to hear your "opinion" of how England managed ;-

- 50% fewer championship points than Scotland
- 50% fewer tries than Scotland
- far fewer carries than Scotland
- far fewer metres made than Scotland
- far fewer turnovers than Scotland
- didnt have the highest try scorer (Scotland did)
- didnt have the 6 nations player of the year (Scotland did)

Make it "reasoned and factual", as always:)

This will be funny.

Hes Welsh.

by alive555 Mon 5 Apr - 13:29

No 7&1/2 wrote:
alive555 wrote:
whatahitson wrote:
alive555 wrote:This was a disgraceful post. Utterly one sided drivel. I also stopped reading it was such obvious nonsense whereby every win was a bit lucky, and every loss was well deserved. And all presented as though reasoned fact.

He then claimed a min of 1 scot in the entire squad. Very generous of him.

That's because it is. You may dislike it but it's well-reasoned and factual.

Scotland's results have been inferior to the other three teams for 20 years. They are clearly the worst team out of the home nations on a collective basis and, unsurprisingly, they also produce the worst players out of the 4 home nations which means their representation on the Lions tours is the smallest. Worst is relative in this sense but it's also fair. My opinion is that this is not going to change any time soon, even with the massive introduction of foreign raised and trained rugby players injected in to the professional set up in Scotland over the last 5-7 years. This isn't an uncommon opinion, well over half the people I know involved in the professional game in rugby echo something similar to this on the basis that England have the potential to be one of the best teams in the world for a long time to come, and Wales and Ireland are good 'low end' tier 1 teams as well who are competitive enough. Scotland are struggling, which is reflected by dropping below Italy at U20 level. They have finally introduced some good and necessary grassroots measures in the last 10 years to try to catch up but they were left behind by professionalism in a big way. To what extent those measures pay off is another matter entirely.

Again, my opinion is the Scottish national team are not suddenly going to turn the corner in the next 12-18 months and become the equal of Ireland or Wales, let alone England, given how competitive it is to keep in touch with these teams. One off wins and then desperately trying to argue that Scotland were close to a Grand Slam is wishful thinking at its worst that they are in touch with these teams. Scotland's answer to the problem so far has literally been to pick a raft of non-Scots from the southern hemisphere and they're still 4th out of 4 (worst performance of the 4 at the RWC 2019). The only reason no one comes out and publicly states this in the media is (as we've seen in this thread) the Scottish fans are passionate and often quite wealthy and are a major stakeholder in the game in Europe and absolutely do not want to hear that they are in the mire. They want to believe that things are just about to get better and in some ways I don't blame then. I sympathise with them on the one hand that they have been left behind in the professional era but on the other hand, the Scots are being pandered to with constant hope that turns in to perpetual false dawns precisely because rugby cannot afford to alienate Scotland on an economic basis. Scotland are an important cog in the machine of the six nations, the Lions, and European rugby. If the fans disappear then the whole of Europe, in particular the UK, suffers. I've also spoken to one well known English pundit who has been very happy to criticise the Welsh and Irish over the last 10-15 years and he said words to the effect of: "if I did the same (tell them they're rubbish on twitter) to the Scots it would be too close to the bone."

Only 1 Scot is guaranteed to make the squad, that's impossible to argue with. That's Hogg. The next best players - Duhan VDM, Watson - have tough competition and though there are likely to be at least 2 more Scots in the main squad, no individual player is guaranteed to make the squad. In contrast, Wales, England, and Ireland probably have about 3-4 guaranteed players each - the likes of Curry, Farrell, Itoje; Furlong, Beirne, Henshaw; Liam Williams, Faletau, Ken Owens...etc.

If something upsets you because you invest emotional energy in to it, that doesn't make it disagraceful let alone untrue.

Ok then.

Like to hear your "opinion" of how England managed ;-

- 50% fewer championship points than Scotland
- 50% fewer tries than Scotland
- far fewer carries than Scotland
- far fewer metres made than Scotland
- far fewer turnovers than Scotland
- didnt have the highest try scorer (Scotland did)
- didnt have the 6 nations player of the year (Scotland did)

Make it "reasoned and factual", as always:)

This will be funny.

Hes Welsh.

So what, let him answer.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 5 Apr - 13:33

Hes just wumming alive. His history shows he not bothered. Just likes wumming English and Scottish posters. He'll answer in several long rambling paragraphs. Dont take it seriously.

by LordDowlais Mon 5 Apr - 13:35

How do you all know hes Welsh ?

All his posts have been very pro England/English.

Funny how two of the biggest wums on these boards are preaching this. Rolling Eyes

by No 7&1/2 Mon 5 Apr - 13:39

LordDowlais wrote:How do you all know hes Welsh ?

All his posts have been very pro England/English.

Funny how two of the biggest wums on these boards are preaching this.

I don't wum. However this guy has been around on a couple of loops. He's on his 4th now I think.

by LordDowlais Mon 5 Apr - 13:41

No 7&1/2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:How do you all know hes Welsh ?

All his posts have been very pro England/English.

Funny how two of the biggest wums on these boards are preaching this.

I don't wum. However this guy has been around on a couple of loops. He's on his 4th now I think.

No thank you

by No 7&1/2 Mon 5 Apr - 13:45

No agenda LD. Take the chip off your shoulder.

by flyhalffactory Mon 5 Apr - 13:50

LordDowlais wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Sco 24 - 25 Wal. ONE POINT with 14 men for the best part of the 2nd half and a dubious try disallowed

Seriously, you keep banging on about this, but it is a load of tripe.

Wales on that day left about 20points on the filed. Also, dubious try disallowed ? The on field decision was no try as the player was held up, that's just for starters, then when they were checking they saw the obvious foul play.

At worst for that incident, Scotland lost out on a 5mtr scrum.

Mate I am talking about the disallowed try because Cummings obstructed.

We both have opinions I respect yours enough not to call it tripe. This is my impression, Scotland controlled the game for large periods of time. ZF getting the red on 54 mins changed the complexion of the game. I cannae remember 20 points been left on the field before ZF left the field, but I do know we should have been a bit more than the 17-3 lead we did have at one stage (at least 24-3), we just got full of ourselves, got sloppy, gave away kicking position. gave away stupid pens. Wales deserved to win because we didn't play an 80 min game, we didn't keep our discipline or structure both vital parts of the game

Some general stats which in my mind gives an impression of the overall play
Sco/Wal
Runs 145/81
Meters Run 508/188
Clean Breaks 11/7
Tackles Made 104/179
Tackles Missed 6/27
Turnover Knock Ons 5/7

by lostinwales Mon 5 Apr - 14:37

LordDowlais wrote:I've been away most of the weekend sorting the holiday residence out now that we can travel again. I have just had a bit of a catch up on here and am surprised the direction this thread has taken.

Just for people to know, a lot of young Welsh talent have been spotted, and offered placements at some of these schools that have been mentioned on here, we then get tarred with the old Welsh nicking English players nonsense.

There is a hell of a lot of young Welsh players in the English set-up, but they are Welsh, not English. Interesting reading on the WWW if you are willing to look for it:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-look-poaching-exceptional-welsh-14955029

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-bids-17514334

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/43294753

There is a Wales exiles program.

Some other countries have similar systems. England doesn't.

To the best of my knowledge there are no current England players with significant Welsh links. There are players who have spent time playing in Wales or in the Welsh system (Vunipolas, at a very young age, Underhill, Dombrandt). But they are not Welsh. There are a number of Welsh players who are dual qualified, and have chosen Wales. Some of them played for England at age grade. Quite honestly - good luck to them.

Young players will take advantage of scholarships to top schools regardless of where they are located. Young players may also find places in England professional teams. As you may have noticed there are a few NEQ players around and the Welsh players making a go of it are there because of their playing ability not ethnicity.

by Guest Mon 5 Apr - 15:32

flyhalffactory wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Sco 24 - 25 Wal. ONE POINT with 14 men for the best part of the 2nd half and a dubious try disallowed

Seriously, you keep banging on about this, but it is a load of tripe.

Wales on that day left about 20points on the filed. Also, dubious try disallowed ? The on field decision was no try as the player was held up, that's just for starters, then when they were checking they saw the obvious foul play.

At worst for that incident, Scotland lost out on a 5mtr scrum.

Mate I am talking about the disallowed try because Cummings obstructed.

We both have opinions I respect yours enough not to call it tripe. This is my impression, Scotland controlled the game for large periods of time. ZF getting the red on 54 mins changed the complexion of the game. I cannae remember 20 points been left on the field before ZF left the field, but I do know we should have been a bit more than the 17-3 lead we did have at one stage (at least 24-3), we just got full of ourselves, got sloppy, gave away kicking position. gave away stupid pens. Wales deserved to win because we didn't play an 80 min game, we didn't keep our discipline or structure both vital parts of the game

Some general stats which in my mind gives an impression of the overall play
Sco/Wal
Runs 145/81
Meters Run 508/188
Clean Breaks 11/7
Tackles Made 104/179
Tackles Missed 6/27
Turnover Knock Ons 5/7

You guys really need to start doing more with the ball! Wink

by LordDowlais Mon 5 Apr - 18:34

lostinwales wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I've been away most of the weekend sorting the holiday residence out now that we can travel again. I have just had a bit of a catch up on here and am surprised the direction this thread has taken.

Just for people to know, a lot of young Welsh talent have been spotted, and offered placements at some of these schools that have been mentioned on here, we then get tarred with the old Welsh nicking English players nonsense.

There is a hell of a lot of young Welsh players in the English set-up, but they are Welsh, not English. Interesting reading on the WWW if you are willing to look for it:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-look-poaching-exceptional-welsh-14955029

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-boss-eddie-jones-bids-17514334

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/43294753

There is a Wales exiles program.

Some other countries have similar systems. England doesn't.

To the best of my knowledge there are no current England players with significant Welsh links. There are players who have spent time playing in Wales or in the Welsh system (Vunipolas, at a very young age, Underhill, Dombrandt). But they are not Welsh. There are a number of Welsh players who are dual qualified, and have chosen Wales. Some of them played for England at age grade. Quite honestly - good luck to them.

Young players will take advantage of scholarships to top schools regardless of where they are located. Young players may also find places in England professional teams. As you may have noticed there are a few NEQ players around and the Welsh players making a go of it are there because of their playing ability not ethnicity.

I know there is a Welsh exiles program, and for the record I am not complaining about anything. It's just that I have read things on here that makes it look as though people in Wales are going to England looking for these opportunities when in the facts are, they are being enticed over the border with the promise of scholarships and the what not.

I am grateful for the opportunities these young Welsh kids are given by the English system as well, but people should not complain that a lot of Welsh players go through the system to end up playing for Wales.

by Soul Requiem Mon 5 Apr - 18:42

Is anyone complaining?

The best young Welsh and English players competing against each other can only be a good thing for both countries? LRZ is benefitting from playing in England and at the same time any young English player benefits from playing against him.

by LordDowlais Mon 5 Apr - 18:43

Soul Requiem wrote:Is anyone complaining?

The best young Welsh and English players competing against each other can only be a good thing for both countries? LRZ is benefitting from playing in England and at the same time any young English player benefits from playing against him.

by Brendan Mon 5 Apr - 22:47

Between the 6 nations and Lions selection there are a fair few games. If your team is getting beaten or players are playing badly they won't be able rely on 6N form.

I am sure Gatland would have made some notes after the Scarlets v Sale game where an SA heavy team lead by the SA scrum half made people look bad. There are plenty of SA players in Europe and plenty big packs. If a player does poorly against big club packs what hope have they on being effective against SA.

Players playing in the domestic playoffs and the Euro semi and final will be looked at by Gats. Can't see how we give out about Sarries players who hadn't played in months and struggled but think club players will be able to just step up for the Lions when they are rubbish for their club.

by Guest Mon 5 Apr - 23:10

By the same token, Brendan, we can discount those players who failed at a higher level than club rugby (i.e. 6 Nations) and only seem to be able to step up when back at their clubs and surrounded by players from other nations. Sure they’re will be some Lions contenders piggy backing on the success of their teammates in Europe this weekend.

by Brendan Mon 5 Apr - 23:49

Regarding the 6Ns I think some people are forgetting how close this year was. As Wales showed in Paris playing with a man less is a bit harder and I'm not sure that SA series for Lions will be as card happy as the 6Ns.

Ireland finished 3rd could have been 5th or could have been a GS. Lost to France by 2 and Wales by 5. Beat Scotland but just about got over the line. If we had of lost that then we probably would have lost to England. If we had beaten Wales might France have been different.

Wales in their first 3 games did well but had some help from opposition players or ref. If Wales had not had the help v England they would have been 14pts down and not be able to play how they did v an England who had to chase the game because of those two tries. Scotland could easily have been on 3 from 3 but for a few bounces of the ball. While England did poorly they were forced to give Wales a headstart and felt like they didn't turn up in Dublin because they were so disappointed by their performance (I think if it wasn't the last game England would have played better). If France had beaten England they probably would have beaten Scotland.

DVM scored the most trys, made the second most number of meters made (even beating Hogg and other fulbacks), he equalled a record for number of players beaten in a 6 nations tournament set by the great BOD. To think he is not on the plane is to ignore the facts. He plays for Scotland so is good for the Lions and will play his best if selected. He was the best winger in the tournament, he might not have had the big end to end run of LRZ but did better over the game/tournament. LRZ did well and a great first tournament but not nearly as effective at going forward with each carry. Kolbe might catch DVM but he might have to get up off the ground before he can start running (Not the DVM is slow) Hogg also knows how to play defence with DVM.

If people actually believe that the 6N player of the tournament isn't going on the Lions they must think they know more then most. Watson carries which is backed up by his stats. When it comes to carries he is like an 8. Gats like big carriers and he does his well. He made 321m in his 67 carries and made all 55 tackles. He made 4 turnovers. He is also well able to go the distance in games. He will also be great at winding up the opposition like no one else.

Everyone accepts Hogg is on the plane.

I don't think Gats will be looking for skilful players (as shown by Chiefs since he left) but want brutes who will be comfortable taking the ball and running over people rather then around them and getting penalties. Scots have 3 people who should be in the team based on the stats.

by Brendan Tue 6 Apr - 0:02

The Oracle wrote:By the same token, Brendan, we can discount those players who failed at a higher level than club rugby (i.e. 6 Nations) and only seem to be able to step up when back at their clubs and surrounded by players from other nations. Sure they’re will be some Lions contenders piggy backing on the success of their teammates in Europe this weekend.

Competely agree with those who can't do international level such as James Lowe. Great club player but was poor at international. Leinster hooker another example. POM probably is no longer international standard but use to be. I am sure there are others like that.

Players like the Sarries boys were not match fit but are international standard and Gats would back himself to get them up to speed like he use to with Warbs who was never match fit outside internationals. People who had poor tournaments but form picks up after the 6N would be seen as coming into form. Maybe someone like Henderson who might not have had the best ANC but improved with Ulster and then brought it into the 6Ns.

I think people are looking at results rather then player performances in the 6N games. In Wales v Ireland only 1 of the starting 14 played badly (POM) for Ireland. Even Lowe wasn't to bad but plenty of players played really well.

by alive555 Tue 6 Apr - 1:13

Brendan wrote:Regarding the 6Ns I think some people are forgetting how close this year was. As Wales showed in Paris playing with a man less is a bit harder and I'm not sure that SA series for Lions will be as card happy as the 6Ns.

Ireland finished 3rd could have been 5th or could have been a GS. Lost to France by 2 and Wales by 5. Beat Scotland but just about got over the line. If we had of lost that then we probably would have lost to England. If we had beaten Wales might France have been different.

Wales in their first 3 games did well but had some help from opposition players or ref. If Wales had not had the help v England they would have been 14pts down and not be able to play how they did v an England who had to chase the game because of those two tries. Scotland could easily have been on 3 from 3 but for a few bounces of the ball. While England did poorly they were forced to give Wales a headstart and felt like they didn't turn up in Dublin because they were so disappointed by their performance (I think if it wasn't the last game England would have played better). If France had beaten England they probably would have beaten Scotland.

DVM scored the most trys, made the second most number of meters made (even beating Hogg and other fulbacks), he equalled a record for number of players beaten in a 6 nations tournament set by the great BOD. To think he is not on the plane is to ignore the facts. He plays for Scotland so is good for the Lions and will play his best if selected. He was the best winger in the tournament, he might not have had the big end to end run of LRZ but did better over the game/tournament. LRZ did well and a great first tournament but not nearly as effective at going forward with each carry. Kolbe might catch DVM but he might have to get up off the ground before he can start running (Not the DVM is slow) Hogg also knows how to play defence with DVM.

If people actually believe that the 6N player of the tournament isn't going on the Lions they must think they know more then most. Watson carries which is backed up by his stats. When it comes to carries he is like an 8. Gats like big carriers and he does his well. He made 321m in his 67 carries and made all 55 tackles. He made 4 turnovers. He is also well able to go the distance in games. He will also be great at winding up the opposition like no one else.

Everyone accepts Hogg is on the plane.

I don't think Gats will be looking for skilful players (as shown by Chiefs since he left) but want brutes who will be comfortable taking the ball and running over people rather then around them and getting penalties. Scots have 3 people who should be in the team based on the stats.

Top post btw.

This will be a deeply unpopular read for many posters on here who repeatedly claim "there are better players than the scots in the same position", and, "Scotland have been rubbish for 20yrs so they don't deserve to be picked". So lets be down right biased and pick our own favorite player from our own nation instead, and then label our biased opinion as " factual", and "reasoned".

by Guest Tue 6 Apr - 9:20

And the award for the saltiest poster on 606 goes to....... alive555! Congratulations sir clap

by Guest Tue 6 Apr - 10:09

Brendan wrote:Regarding the 6Ns I think some people are forgetting how close this year was. As Wales showed in Paris playing with a man less is a bit harder and I'm not sure that SA series for Lions will be as card happy as the 6Ns.

Ireland finished 3rd could have been 5th or could have been a GS. Lost to France by 2 and Wales by 5. Beat Scotland but just about got over the line. If we had of lost that then we probably would have lost to England. If we had beaten Wales might France have been different.

Wales in their first 3 games did well but had some help from opposition players or ref. If Wales had not had the help v England they would have been 14pts down and not be able to play how they did v an England who had to chase the game because of those two tries. Scotland could easily have been on 3 from 3 but for a few bounces of the ball. While England did poorly they were forced to give Wales a headstart and felt like they didn't turn up in Dublin because they were so disappointed by their performance (I think if it wasn't the last game England would have played better). If France had beaten England they probably would have beaten Scotland.

DVM scored the most trys, made the second most number of meters made (even beating Hogg and other fulbacks), he equalled a record for number of players beaten in a 6 nations tournament set by the great BOD. To think he is not on the plane is to ignore the facts. He plays for Scotland so is good for the Lions and will play his best if selected. He was the best winger in the tournament, he might not have had the big end to end run of LRZ but did better over the game/tournament. LRZ did well and a great first tournament but not nearly as effective at going forward with each carry. Kolbe might catch DVM but he might have to get up off the ground before he can start running (Not the DVM is slow) Hogg also knows how to play defence with DVM.

If people actually believe that the 6N player of the tournament isn't going on the Lions they must think they know more then most. Watson carries which is backed up by his stats. When it comes to carries he is like an 8. Gats like big carriers and he does his well. He made 321m in his 67 carries and made all 55 tackles. He made 4 turnovers. He is also well able to go the distance in games. He will also be great at winding up the opposition like no one else.

Everyone accepts Hogg is on the plane.

I don't think Gats will be looking for skilful players (as shown by Chiefs since he left) but want brutes who will be comfortable taking the ball and running over people rather then around them and getting penalties. Scots have 3 people who should be in the team based on the stats.

I love you to point out who has said that on these boards? Headscratch

by LordDowlais Tue 6 Apr - 10:10

This place is a hoot, it really is.

Last time the Welsh players shouldn't have gone because Wales finished below Scotland in the 6N, now this time around, it's because the Welsh regions are not very good.

The underlying resentment to towards Wales on this forum is an elephant in the room that the MOD's do not want to touch on but I will.

No doubt this post will be removed, or altered, or I will get a ban. But I'm sorry I just need to get it off my chest.

Scotland have two players who will deffo tour. Hogg and Watson. If anybody else goes, they will be midweek players, I will suspect that will not be many.

The Lions will be made up mostly of players from Wales, Ireland and England, simply put, because they are better. I am sorry if this upsets people on here, but I am speaking rationally.

I will not be put off if Scotland have a larger representation than previous years either, but I'm sorry, I do not think there will be.

by LordDowlais Tue 6 Apr - 10:11

The Oracle wrote:
Brendan wrote:Regarding the 6Ns I think some people are forgetting how close this year was. As Wales showed in Paris playing with a man less is a bit harder and I'm not sure that SA series for Lions will be as card happy as the 6Ns.

Ireland finished 3rd could have been 5th or could have been a GS. Lost to France by 2 and Wales by 5. Beat Scotland but just about got over the line. If we had of lost that then we probably would have lost to England. If we had beaten Wales might France have been different.

Wales in their first 3 games did well but had some help from opposition players or ref. If Wales had not had the help v England they would have been 14pts down and not be able to play how they did v an England who had to chase the game because of those two tries. Scotland could easily have been on 3 from 3 but for a few bounces of the ball. While England did poorly they were forced to give Wales a headstart and felt like they didn't turn up in Dublin because they were so disappointed by their performance (I think if it wasn't the last game England would have played better). If France had beaten England they probably would have beaten Scotland.

DVM scored the most trys, made the second most number of meters made (even beating Hogg and other fulbacks), he equalled a record for number of players beaten in a 6 nations tournament set by the great BOD. To think he is not on the plane is to ignore the facts. He plays for Scotland so is good for the Lions and will play his best if selected. He was the best winger in the tournament, he might not have had the big end to end run of LRZ but did better over the game/tournament. LRZ did well and a great first tournament but not nearly as effective at going forward with each carry. Kolbe might catch DVM but he might have to get up off the ground before he can start running (Not the DVM is slow) Hogg also knows how to play defence with DVM.

If people actually believe that the 6N player of the tournament isn't going on the Lions they must think they know more then most. Watson carries which is backed up by his stats. When it comes to carries he is like an 8. Gats like big carriers and he does his well. He made 321m in his 67 carries and made all 55 tackles. He made 4 turnovers. He is also well able to go the distance in games. He will also be great at winding up the opposition like no one else.

Everyone accepts Hogg is on the plane.

I don't think Gats will be looking for skilful players (as shown by Chiefs since he left) but want brutes who will be comfortable taking the ball and running over people rather then around them and getting penalties. Scots have 3 people who should be in the team based on the stats.

I love you to point out who has said that on these boards?

Some of the English members have said Curry should start ahead of Watson, thats all I have seen.

by alive555 Tue 6 Apr - 10:19

The Oracle wrote:And the award for the saltiest poster on 606 goes to....... alive555! Congratulations sir

thanks for capitulating .

by No 7&1/2 Tue 6 Apr - 10:22

LordDowlais wrote:This place is a hoot, it really is.

Last time the Welsh players shouldn't have gone because Wales finished below Scotland in the 6N, now this time around, it's because the Welsh regions are not very good.

The underlying resentment to towards Wales on this forum is an elephant in the room that the MOD's do not want to touch on but I will.

No doubt this post will be removed, or altered, or I will get a ban. But I'm sorry I just need to get it off my chest.

Scotland have two players who will deffo tour. Hogg and Watson. If anybody else goes, they will be midweek players, I will suspect that will not be many.

The Lions will be made up mostly of players from Wales, Ireland and England, simply put, because they are better. I am sorry if this upsets people on here, but I am speaking rationally.

I will not be put off if Scotland have a larger representation than previous years either, but I'm sorry, I do not think there will be.

Resentment towards Wales...wow. I assume you're still upset that I made a point that Wales cheated years ago and got away with it. It's time to accept and move on. As for Mods not touching people not rating some Welsh players...why would they it would be like banning you for saying you'd only take 2 Scottish players.

by alive555 Tue 6 Apr - 10:25

LordDowlais wrote:This place is a hoot, it really is.

Last time the Welsh players shouldn't have gone because Wales finished below Scotland in the 6N, now this time around, it's because the Welsh regions are not very good.

The underlying resentment to towards Wales on this forum is an elephant in the room that the MOD's do not want to touch on but I will.

No doubt this post will be removed, or altered, or I will get a ban. But I'm sorry I just need to get it off my chest.

Scotland have two players who will deffo tour. Hogg and Watson. If anybody else goes, they will be midweek players, I will suspect that will not be many.

The Lions will be made up mostly of players from Wales, Ireland and England, simply put, because they are better. I am sorry if this upsets people on here, but I am speaking rationally.

I will not be put off if Scotland have a larger representation than previous years either, but I'm sorry, I do not think there will be.

So Hogg and Watson to start, and Id confidently say quite possibly DVM. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for that . Wonderful stuff

by Old Man Tue 6 Apr - 10:28

I have said this before, and I will say it again.

Gatland in 50/50 selection issues will go for players he knows well, it is natural, every coach does that.

So expect any 50/50 decision to go the way of a Welsh player.

Secondly, Gatland knows how to play SA, it isn’t the English way, it is the Welsh way. So he will look for players that fit that style.

by **RiscaGame** Tue 6 Apr - 10:30

As much as I try to avoid red penning threads, sometimes there is little choice.

A few points.

This place is not a mandatory site to visit.

The elephant in the room is non existent. There is no underlying resentment towards Wales or any other nation, otherwise I would pick up on it. Accusing posters of agendas on posts, would do little to resolve the issue anyway.

Site users are reminded to not accuse posters of being other posters etc. People are also reminded to not accuse others of being WUMs/Trolls etc.

Please do not disrupt threads, with complaints about moderators. There are other features for this, as per the site rules.

This post will be locked for a while, to allow you all to digest this information.

by Guest Tue 6 Apr - 10:56

Old Man wrote:I have said this before, and I will say it again.

Gatland in 50/50 selection issues will go for players he knows well, it is natural, every coach does that.

So expect any 50/50 decision to go the way of a Welsh player.

Secondly, Gatland knows how to play SA, it isn’t the English way, it is the Welsh way. So he will look for players that fit that style.

The Welsh way under Gatland? Because we have moved on to play a different way now under Pivac. Under Gats we used to score amongst the fewest tries of the tournament but sometimes still win. Under Pivac we scored the most tries we ever have in the tournament. There's a marked difference in the way we attack now and a move away from Gatland's structured and 'zonal' gameplan. So we're not really playing Gatland rugby currently. I guess the players could go back to old Gatland rugby but I'm not sure they're in the same boat as they were last tour.

by Old Man Tue 6 Apr - 11:00

The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:I have said this before, and I will say it again.

Gatland in 50/50 selection issues will go for players he knows well, it is natural, every coach does that.

So expect any 50/50 decision to go the way of a Welsh player.

Secondly, Gatland knows how to play SA, it isn’t the English way, it is the Welsh way. So he will look for players that fit that style.

The Welsh way under Gatland? Because we have moved on to play a different way now under Pivac. Under Gats we used to score amongst the fewest tries of the tournament but sometimes still win. Under Pivac we scored the most tries we ever have in the tournament. There's a marked difference in the way we attack now and a move away from Gatland's structured and 'zonal' gameplan. So we're not really playing Gatland rugby currently. I guess the players could go back to old Gatland rugby but I'm not sure they're in the same boat as they were last tour.

The Chiefs have been underperforming badly under Gatland, they have been on their poorest run of form for a long time, so the new way isn’t going to be the style Gatland will perform with the Lions.

Pivac isn’t the Lions coach, so that is irrelevant.

by Guest Tue 6 Apr - 11:06

Another point on Gatland: I never got the sense that he was one to feel pressured into choices. In fact I often felt that if the media and fans were crying out for a player he would go the other way just to show his autonomy. However, if there ever was some sort of pressure for him to pick his friends from within then to a certain extent I feel that his break away from the Wales team will serve to alleviate those pressures somewhat. I can imagine as a coach not picking someone in your squad and then having to go back to coach that squad after the tour..... that can be tricky and can cause some animosity, so I can understand how that might sway decision making somewhat. So we might not see so many 50/50 calls going Wales' way as he hasn't got to come back to 'face the music'.

by LordDowlais Tue 6 Apr - 11:07

alive555 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:This place is a hoot, it really is.

Last time the Welsh players shouldn't have gone because Wales finished below Scotland in the 6N, now this time around, it's because the Welsh regions are not very good.

The underlying resentment to towards Wales on this forum is an elephant in the room that the MOD's do not want to touch on but I will.

No doubt this post will be removed, or altered, or I will get a ban. But I'm sorry I just need to get it off my chest.

Scotland have two players who will deffo tour. Hogg and Watson. If anybody else goes, they will be midweek players, I will suspect that will not be many.

The Lions will be made up mostly of players from Wales, Ireland and England, simply put, because they are better. I am sorry if this upsets people on here, but I am speaking rationally.

I will not be put off if Scotland have a larger representation than previous years either, but I'm sorry, I do not think there will be.

So Hogg and Watson to start, and Id confidently say quite possibly DVM. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for that . Wonderful stuff

How many Welsh players do you think will start ?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 6 Apr - 11:10

The problem is rightly identified in those posts. Gatland, as he has said, is unable to be selector required for the Lions. It may be different this time as he's not with Wales anymore. Hell if the rumours of an England job are right (pray to satan they aren't) he may cram the squad with the next line of selection he may be eyeing up (Randall, Dombrandt, Smith, Simmonds etc). He has a wide ranging choice of players and styles he could use. The English way post world cup has been very different and a much more forward orientated, even more heavily territory based approach. The opposite really of when we bottled the final against SA. As ever with the Lions I do hope he rewards form even if that means players who are better on paper are left behind. Gatland and the other coaches should then pick on form in training and the warm ups and keep an open mind on style based on that,

by Guest Tue 6 Apr - 11:11

Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:I have said this before, and I will say it again.

Gatland in 50/50 selection issues will go for players he knows well, it is natural, every coach does that.

So expect any 50/50 decision to go the way of a Welsh player.

Secondly, Gatland knows how to play SA, it isn’t the English way, it is the Welsh way. So he will look for players that fit that style.

The Welsh way under Gatland? Because we have moved on to play a different way now under Pivac. Under Gats we used to score amongst the fewest tries of the tournament but sometimes still win. Under Pivac we scored the most tries we ever have in the tournament. There's a marked difference in the way we attack now and a move away from Gatland's structured and 'zonal' gameplan. So we're not really playing Gatland rugby currently. I guess the players could go back to old Gatland rugby but I'm not sure they're in the same boat as they were last tour.

The Chiefs have been underperforming badly under Gatland, they have been on their poorest run of form for a long time, so the new way isn’t going to be the style Gatland will perform with the Lions.

Pivac isn’t the Lions coach, so that is irrelevant.

Sorry Old Man, I perhaps misunderstood your original point. I thought you were saying that some of the 50/50 calls may go Wales' way because they play the Welsh way which is the best way to play against South Africa? I was just wondering if you meant the way Wales played South Africa under Gatland which was reasonably successful? I mentioned Pivac because we don't play the reasonably successful Gatland way any more since changing coach, and haven't played SA under Pivac yet so I'm not sure that we can judge whether our way (current way) is the best way to play SA.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 6 Apr - 11:17

LordDowlais wrote:
alive555 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:This place is a hoot, it really is.

Last time the Welsh players shouldn't have gone because Wales finished below Scotland in the 6N, now this time around, it's because the Welsh regions are not very good.

The underlying resentment to towards Wales on this forum is an elephant in the room that the MOD's do not want to touch on but I will.

No doubt this post will be removed, or altered, or I will get a ban. But I'm sorry I just need to get it off my chest.

Scotland have two players who will deffo tour. Hogg and Watson. If anybody else goes, they will be midweek players, I will suspect that will not be many.

The Lions will be made up mostly of players from Wales, Ireland and England, simply put, because they are better. I am sorry if this upsets people on here, but I am speaking rationally.

I will not be put off if Scotland have a larger representation than previous years either, but I'm sorry, I do not think there will be.

So Hogg and Watson to start, and Id confidently say quite possibly DVM. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for that . Wonderful stuff

How many Welsh players do you think will start ?

Honestly, there is only Faletau that I would say, without question, will start. Every other potential position has, imo, legitimate alternative players that could be selected.
That does not mean if Gats selects 6 other welsh players to start I would be annoyed as I know they will be quality but not necessarily my choice.
Turning the question around I would say Itoje for England and Hogg for Scotland.

by Guest Tue 6 Apr - 11:21

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
alive555 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:This place is a hoot, it really is.

Last time the Welsh players shouldn't have gone because Wales finished below Scotland in the 6N, now this time around, it's because the Welsh regions are not very good.

The underlying resentment to towards Wales on this forum is an elephant in the room that the MOD's do not want to touch on but I will.

No doubt this post will be removed, or altered, or I will get a ban. But I'm sorry I just need to get it off my chest.

Scotland have two players who will deffo tour. Hogg and Watson. If anybody else goes, they will be midweek players, I will suspect that will not be many.

The Lions will be made up mostly of players from Wales, Ireland and England, simply put, because they are better. I am sorry if this upsets people on here, but I am speaking rationally.

I will not be put off if Scotland have a larger representation than previous years either, but I'm sorry, I do not think there will be.

So Hogg and Watson to start, and Id confidently say quite possibly DVM. Sounds reasonable. Thanks for that . Wonderful stuff

How many Welsh players do you think will start ?

Honestly, there is only Faletau that I would say, without question, will start. Every other potential position has, imo, legitimate alternative players that could be selected.
That does not mean if Gats selects 6 other welsh players to start I would be annoyed as I know they will be quality but not necessarily my choice.
Turning the question around I would say Itoje for England and Hogg for Scotland.

I agree with this. And only because no.8 doesn't have many/any other stand out players.

It's so competitive this year that you could make the case equally for up to 6 or up to 0 players from ALL nations starting.

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