Ireland vs England

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd set up a neutral venue.

Some team news is that Ryan and Ringrose have been ruled out for the home team.

No sign as yet of Underhill so Wilson on for another start unless Jones gets brave and picks Martin from the off. May actually be tempted as POM is back available.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha, was going to say 11 Mountain!

Seems you may be right.

According to WOL:

Thursday
England 11am
Wales 1200
Scotland 1200
Ireland 1230
Italy 1500

Friday
France 1200

Oakdene wrote:Curry is very very good but I feel, as an outsider looking in, that he isn't as effective when he hasn't got his mate Underhill packing down with him. Reminds me a bit of when we used to play Warburton & Lydiate, they were immense together but Saw wasn't as good when Lydiate was out.

Did you see him playing against France last week....without Underhill? I reject your opinion...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Curry is very very good but I feel, as an outsider looking in, that he isn't as effective when he hasn't got his mate Underhill packing down with him. Reminds me a bit of when we used to play Warburton & Lydiate, they were immense together but Saw wasn't as good when Lydiate was out.

Did you see him playing against France last week....without Underhill? I reject your opinion...

The way I read it is simply if we play our two best options together they will each be better.  Playing Curry with Underhill, or maybe Willis in the mix when he recovers at the end of the year, has got to be better than Curry with Wilson or any of the hybrids.

D*ily M*il are predicting Martin will come in for Wilson and Daly will play at 13 instead of Slade (if he is injured).

Meteoric rise for the young man if true. In for the extra power that he brings? I've personally never seen him play, so it is a genuine question.

Cumbrian wrote:D*ily M*il are predicting Martin will come in for Wilson and Daly will play at 13 instead of Slade (if he is injured).  

Meteoric rise for the young man if true.  In for the extra power that he brings?  I've personally never seen him play, so it is a genuine question.

That would be very positive in terms of blindside for me. I can see POM back in the side causing the normal problems and for all of our own lineout ball being solid vs France we didn't pressurise them very much at all.

Daly at outside center...jfc. I get he's popular with Jones and the coaches, and the left foot kicking option yadda yadda yadda but he's woefully out of form and hasn't played centre in years. My prediction is that he'll be a turnstile in defence or simply out of position. I'll save my sadness for the announcement though!

Hope you're doing ok Cumbrian.

Daly at 13 would be an odd choice, has he played there at all under Jones? Give one of the new lads the chance, Lawrence or Odogwu would be a better choice

I'd have Lawrence at 13, with Odogwu and Daly on bench. Daly at 13 to start? In past maybe but lately apart from last Saturday when in fairness he did well as sub he's been poor.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:D*ily M*il are predicting Martin will come in for Wilson and Daly will play at 13 instead of Slade (if he is injured).  

Meteoric rise for the young man if true.  In for the extra power that he brings?  I've personally never seen him play, so it is a genuine question.

That would be very positive in terms of blindside for me. I can see POM back in the side causing the normal problems and for all of our own lineout ball being solid vs France we didn't pressurise them very much at all.

Daly at outside center...jfc. I get he's popular with Jones and the coaches, and the left foot kicking option yadda yadda yadda but he's woefully out of form and hasn't played centre in years. My prediction is that he'll be a turnstile in defence or simply out of position. I'll save my sadness for the announcement though!

Hope you're doing ok Cumbrian.

Cheers, I'm alright thanks. Feeling a little embarrassed for getting drunk and needy, but there we are!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Curry is very very good but I feel, as an outsider looking in, that he isn't as effective when he hasn't got his mate Underhill packing down with him. Reminds me a bit of when we used to play Warburton & Lydiate, they were immense together but Saw wasn't as good when Lydiate was out.

Did you see him playing against France last week....without Underhill? I reject your opinion...

Yes I did & he was very good, however he wasn't at his best against Scotland & was better but not great against us.

What I am saying is, when Underhill plays, Curry seems to have stormer after stormer in terms of performances.

So that would be..:

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Malins

Theres not alot of power in THAT backline!!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:D*ily M*il are predicting Martin will come in for Wilson and Daly will play at 13 instead of Slade (if he is injured).  

Meteoric rise for the young man if true.  In for the extra power that he brings?  I've personally never seen him play, so it is a genuine question.

That would be very positive in terms of blindside for me. I can see POM back in the side causing the normal problems and for all of our own lineout ball being solid vs France we didn't pressurise them very much at all.

Daly at outside center...jfc. I get he's popular with Jones and the coaches, and the left foot kicking option yadda yadda yadda but he's woefully out of form and hasn't played centre in years. My prediction is that he'll be a turnstile in defence or simply out of position. I'll save my sadness for the announcement though!

Hope you're doing ok Cumbrian.

Odds on a card?

A while ago when Daly was at Wasps, everyone was criticising Jones for not playing him at centre which is where he made his name for Wasps.

In his cameo last week he looked like the benching had brought him to life and looked far more like a 13 than a 15.

Due to lack of game time there, I would be interested to see him play the last 20 minutes there against Ireland, just to see if he works. Ford, Lawrence, Daly will never happen as Captain Fantastic will not be dropped, but it would make a very interesting combo.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So that would be..:

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Malins

Theres not alot of power in THAT backline!!

I would have said that Daly is a bit more powerful than Slade, but Malins is a lot lighter than Daly, despite looking a similar size, about 12kg difference.

It looks exciting, but perhaps does miss a little power/ direct running. If you were to put Lawrence or even Manu (if he is ever fit again) in there then you are seriously talking.

I always think that Daly makes a perfect no.23, he can competently cover lots of positions, and is a genuine 'spark' player.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So that would be..:

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Malins

Theres not alot of power in THAT backline!!

I would have said that Daly is a bit more powerful than Slade, but Malins is a lot lighter than Daly, despite looking a similar size, about 12kg difference.

Thats interesting WPI...
If you go by WIki (which is know is an error at the start)

Henry Slade - 6'3 & 15.2st
Elliot Daly - 6' & 15.6st

Would you believe them stats?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So that would be..:

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Malins

Theres not alot of power in THAT backline!!

I would have said that Daly is a bit more powerful than Slade, but Malins is a lot lighter than Daly, despite looking a similar size, about 12kg difference.

Thats interesting WPI...
If you go by WIki (which is know is an error at the start)

Henry Slade - 6'3 & 15.2st
Elliot Daly - 6' & 15.6st

Would you believe them stats?

Best use of those weights? Slade. and i still don't think hes fantastic.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So that would be..:

9 Young
10 Ford
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Daly
14 Watson
15 Malins

Theres not alot of power in THAT backline!!

I would have said that Daly is a bit more powerful than Slade, but Malins is a lot lighter than Daly, despite looking a similar size, about 12kg difference.

Thats interesting WPI...
If you go by WIki (which is know is an error at the start)

Henry Slade - 6'3 & 15.2st
Elliot Daly - 6' & 15.6st

Would you believe them stats?

RFU website has

Daley height 1.84m weight 94kg
Slade height 1.88 weight 87kg

The RFU site is horrible

So thats about right then LIW.

I didnt expect that..i thought Daly was about 5'8 or something.

And then Ollie Lawrence is only listed as 1.80m and 100kg

So George martin to start eh? Eddie must rate him highly...even over Ted Hill as a big 6.

Must be a workrate thing with Ted HIll

Wiki has Slade at 1.91m and 96kg - Daly at 1.84m and 98kg

RugbyPass has Slade at 1.90m and 90kg - Daly 1.84m and 92kg

Some big differences, weights can change, but not height so much.

15. Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 7 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 51 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 92 caps) (C)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 65 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 76 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 108 caps)

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 66 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 30 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 43 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 47 caps)
5. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
6. Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 22 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 32 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 60 caps)

FINISHERS
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 58 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 12 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 11 caps)
22. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 5 caps)
23. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 4 caps)

team from the rfu feed.

No positive of Martin. Very negative of daly at 13. Think the record is still hauling of Burrell in leas than 30 mins...

So all the same bar Daly for Slade. And Marchant on the bench

I have always thought that Daly's best position could be 13, but England have continued to shoehorn him into wing or fullback purely because he has great skills. The challenge is of course that he has not played there for some time and defensively how will he go? Slade is a great defender so I guess a lot depends on how we play the game? Kick it away and allow Ireland to run back and things could be tricky, but if we get on the front foot then Daly could be very handy at putting the back 3 into space.

So Marchant called up as injury cover and straight on bench. Odogwu been in squad all 6N not a sniff.
Whatever, most of us called it wrong prior to France game and got it wrong as whole team was good. Hopefully same then this week.

hugehandoff wrote:I have always thought that Daly's best position could be 13, but England have continued to shoehorn him into wing or fullback purely because he has great skills. The challenge is of course that he has not played there for some time and defensively how will he go? Slade is a great defender so I guess a lot depends on how we play the game? Kick it away and allow Ireland to run back and things could be tricky, but if we get on the front foot then Daly could be very handy at putting the back 3 into space.

Daly has by far been the worst back at releasing others into space (except the opposition). Think it was 11 attacks he had ended singlehandedly in his starts this tournament. Lets hope he turns it around.

Marchant leapfrogging Odogwu for a place on the bench can’t feel good for the latter

Based on that team

Ireland 43 England 19


Daly Frak sake Eddie what are you doing you silly Kumquat

If I was Odogwu I'd look for another international team to play for.

Eddie isn't going to pick you.

Has Odugwu shat in Eddie's hat...cos I cannot understand what he can have done wrong to not even get a sniff of a game

Don't think this will do much for Lawrence's and Odogwu's confidence. Daly was good in attack last week but his defence has been a revolving door this season. I think this is a mistake from Eddie.

I am hoping though that we get to see Lawrence and Marchant as 12 and 13 later in the game...

TightHEAD wrote:If I was Odogwu I'd look for another international team to play for.

Eddie isn't going to pick you.

He's also eligible for Italy so you never know.

I mean the plus point i suppose is Marchant back in. Class player.

Bet Franco Smith is on the phone to Paolo seeing if he'd like a game this weekend.

IRELAND    v ENGLAND    - 20/03/21 - 16:45

IRE XV





ENG XV

Malins; Watson, Daly, Farrell (capt), May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewels, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Robson, Lawrence, Marchant.

Head to head

Played 137  ENG 80 wins - IRE 49 wins - 8 drawn.

I suppose thats where clear communication from coaches etc comes into it. England have a set that are top class given Odogwu has been there every day and not released would point out that they're working with him. He's come relatively quickly to the fore in the prem and then selection for England (same as Martin) and rather than as *apprentice they're there as full squad members.

I was recommended a good video that might explain what is going on with Eddie's selection policies (it is a bit long and a times technical), but it is worth watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdb_EyP-q0M

On Paolo Odogwu his explanation goes something a long the lines that it is down to fitness. Due to the way England play in attack the wingers need to be the aerobically the fittest in the squad. They are constantly moving to create the 'reload', they aren't simply poachers waiting to get on the end of things (not that I am saying Odogwu is), they are a key component of the attack.

The video has given me a few lightbulb moments regarding Eddie's selections.

Not so long ago, Daly was everyone's choice for 13, he may not have played there for a while but if he is as good as he is supposed to be, it should not be a problem. Look at the Aussies, their backs can play across the back line. I can remember O'Connor playing at 10, 12, 14 and 15 and maybe 13 as well.

Daly looked very good in the 15 minutes he was on the field last week, he looked just like a top class centre and his ball handling was excellent.

WHY AM I DEFENDING DALY'S SELECTION! I was justifying why he was not in the centre a year or so ago.

Mr Bounce wrote:Don't think this will do much for Lawrence's and Odogwu's confidence. Daly was good in attack last week but his defence has been a revolving door this season. I think this is a mistake from Eddie.

I am hoping though that we get to see Lawrence and Marchant as 12 and 13 later in the game...

I see that differently. Eddie has consistently had fringe players - particularly the younger ones - in and around the camp for extended periods before using them - and he started that with Marchant a lot earlier than he did with Lawrence and Odogwu. He wants them to gain experience and be familiar with the systems so he's ready to play them in.

As for Daly, he's a natural 13. That's where he played most of his games for Wasps, but he had Manu, JJ and Slade ahead of him as out and out 13s and was flexible enough to be used on the wing or at fullback. Since teams now know how to exploit his weaknesses at FB, I'm quite happy to see if he can make a case at 13, especially as injury cover.

In terms of the bench / substitution options:
- 10 - Ford and Farrell
- 12 - Farrell and Lawrence, Daly at a push
- 13 - Daly, Lawrence and Marchant
- 11/14 - May, Watson, Daly, Marchant
- 15 - Malins, Daly.

The most dangerous situation for England in the backs would be an early injury to Malins, but in most other respects we have a good range of cover options. We will only see if it works on the day, but if that lineup gels, it could be pretty effective.

He came on and ran well last week, mainly popping up in the middle. Lets hope he goes well.

Odogwu might be a case of fitness. He's always been explosive but conditioning and defence have been issues for him in the past - albeit in a short career. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he returns to Wasps a much fitter and stronger all round player. If the summer tours go ahead he will be nailed on to get capped then IMO.

I've thought that 13 is Daly's best position for a long time. He hasn't played there for a while though so how he fits into England's defensive systems will be key. His role in attack will likely be similar to the one he did so well in the run to the RWC final. At his best he offers a range of skills to the side that no other outside back we've got can do individually. Unlike many I think Jones is right to keep him involved.

One thing Daly definitely offers is more of a running threat from 13 than Slade. I've long thought that we don't always need a crash ball runner in the backs but do need running threats in the centres. The Ford-Farrell-Joseph midfield had no big carriers in it but scored some brilliant tries from phase play.

I'm glad that both Lawrence and Marchant are back in the 23. Two very talented players with big futures.

king_carlos wrote:

I'm glad that both Lawrence and Marchant are back in the 23. Two very talented players with big futures.

Not England futures with Eddie, Ford and Farrell around.

Ireland v England (Aviva Stadium, Dublin; Saturday 20 March 2021 – 4.45pm)

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)

Assistant Referee 1: Pascal Gauzere (France)  

Assistant Referee 2: Alex Ruiz (France)

TMO: Romain Poite (France)

We'll be getting nothing from one of the touchlines and pinged for being a toenail offside.

Raynal is usually pretty good, though, and Poite's technical decision making is strong (except for his incomprehensible interpretation of the scrum in the 2015 RWC game against Australia)

TightHEAD wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

I'm glad that both Lawrence and Marchant are back in the 23. Two very talented players with big futures.

Not England futures with Eddie, Ford and Farrell around.

The best rugby England have played since 2003 (by an absolute mile) has been with Ford at 10, Farrell at 12 and Eddie as coach to be fair to them.

Well i suppose in hindsight Eddie has achieved what he set out...

He wasnt really bothered by the tournament result...he just wanted his core team to get the games and get up to some kind of speed...which they did (in moments v Wales) last week and hopefully will this week.

Then i assume he hopes the Lions and Englands summer tour goes ahead...and he can take the fringe and young players to USA and Canada and give them the once over.

Hmm, not sure he doesn't care. He would want to win the tournament but as with any good coach he's looking to tweak and develop while still winning.

15. Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 10 caps
14. Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 92 caps
13. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 51 caps
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 30 caps
11. Jacob Stockdale (Ulster/Lurgan) 33 caps
10. Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 98 caps CAPTAIN
9. Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 88 caps
1. Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians) 42 caps
2. Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 20 caps
3. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf) 48 caps
4. Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 62 caps
5. Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 21 caps
6. CJ Stander (Munster/Shannon) 50 caps
7. Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 30 caps
8. Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 19 caps

Replacements
16. Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 10 caps
17. Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 108 caps
18. Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 36 caps
19. Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University) 2 caps
20. Peter O’Mahony (Munster/Cork Constitution) 74 caps
21. Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 9 caps
22. Billy Burns (Ulster) 6 caps
23. Jordan Larmour (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 28 caps

Quite relieved POM is on the bench and not starting.