Gallagher Premiership 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

That's not a high tackle. Heyes initial contact is the chest. If you're going to review it, review it properly. It's a legal tackle.

How did the assistant miss that the LI player knocks the ball out of JVP's hands and into touch before the Joseph break. It was right in front of him FFS. Lineout Tigers.

Anyway, Tigers blow what should have been a straightforward win and only get 4 instead of 5 points. LI manage to snatch 2 league points with a TBP at the death. Probably a fair result as LI were the better side in the first half but didn't really show up in the second. Hassell-Collins is looking like a really classy player, shame Parton went off.

I think the forward angle clip of the Brown incident needs looking at more closely.

The reverse angle clip, which was the main one shown on TV and used by the TMO, makes it look at best reckless. The forward angle isn’t quite as clear - because the camera is further from the action and Brown and Taylor are off-centre - but it shows some things that aren’t apparent in the reverse angle.

Firstly, it takes Brown a couple of attempts to stand up, and when he does so he looks less balanced than he does from the reverse angle. Secondly, when he feels his foot has landed on someone rather than the floor, he immediately lifts it and falls over. Also, if you look at the angle his leg moves at, it’s pretty awkward - it’s not where you’d naturally put your foot.

The other factor for me is Brown’s previous record. Despite his reputation as Mr Angry, he’s a very disciplined player and in 400+ professional games has never previously had a red card or any incidence of him losing control on the pitch. It’s so completely out of character for a player who’s had a near spotless record over 15 years that I find it very hard to imagine it was deliberate.

Taylor’s hand is pretty close to Brown’s boot as he lifts his foot, and I wonder if there was just enough contact that Brown was slightly off balance.

I think Brown has lost his rag previously I remember probably five years ago a scuffle near the Leinster try line in a European game after Brown pulled Sexton out of a ruck by his shorts. The band at the top of the under shorts seemed to come away in Brown's hand. It didn't get picked up at the time but these days they'd have been endless memes. I remember it well because I almost fell off the sofa laughing.

Good point about the lack of previous red cards. He's always been an angry guy but stayed on the right side of the law. Problem he has is that in order to get mitigation you have to admit guilt. If he admits guilt then he's potentially in deep trouble.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Brown has lost his rag previously I remember probably five years ago a scuffle near the Leinster try line in a European game after Brown pulled Sexton out of a ruck by his shorts. The band at the top of the under shorts seemed to come away in Brown's hand. It didn't get picked up at the time but these days they'd have been endless memes. I remember it well because I almost fell off the sofa laughing.

Good point about the lack of previous red cards. He's always been an angry guy but stayed on the right side of the law. Problem he has is that in order to get mitigation you have to admit guilt. If he admits guilt then he's potentially in deep trouble.

I don't know what's happened to citing commissions in the last couple of year but they now seem to have become a sort of weird game where the panel basically passes judgement based on whether you sound sorry enough. The idea of unpicking what actually happened seems to have taken a back seat.

I think Brown's best option is probably to go yes, it happened, he's really sorry, he didn't intend to and he's got no previous and hope for a low end ban with time off for contrition. I imagine the only way it would make sense to contest it is if he had evidence that he was off balance or Taylor was prepared to say "yeah, I was messing with his foot and I think I unbalanced him" - but even then we've had recent examples where the panel has dismissed these sorts of statements out of hand. They're in danger of becoming a bit of a court of public opinion - tough on rugby incidents regardless of the causes of rugby incidents.

It would be a shame if that was his last act in a Quins shirt. I'd raise a wry smile though if the ban ended up expiring the week of the semi-finals so that the team would have a massive incentive to make the final and give him the send-off he deserves...

I thought it was a bit cheeky that Dayglo came out with it doesn't matter if it's your first or last game the ban is the ban after he got a mere one week ban for punching meaning he could play the run in for his final season. Frigging hypocrite.

I do agree that the current system appears very slap dash from the outside. Accidental incidents are treated the same as intentional ones. Everyone now pleads guilty because the chance of having a discussion and the charge dropped are virtually nil. You don't plead guilty then no mitigation. I think we'd all like an overhaul and some consistency but good luck with that.

I've never been able to take anything that Loz says about discipline seriously since the Dallaglio Report - "nothing to see here, nobody else was using blood capsules, nobody else was cheating but by the way we'll put an extra prop on the bench to prevent uncontested scrums even though Wasps definitely weren't using them as a deliberate tactic, no sirree".

I think I said at the time that the headline was basically "fox declares henhouse 'perfectly secure'"

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Brown has lost his rag previously I remember probably five years ago a scuffle near the Leinster try line in a European game after Brown pulled Sexton out of a ruck by his shorts. The band at the top of the under shorts seemed to come away in Brown's hand. It didn't get picked up at the time but these days they'd have been endless memes. I remember it well because I almost fell off the sofa laughing.

Good point about the lack of previous red cards. He's always been an angry guy but stayed on the right side of the law. Problem he has is that in order to get mitigation you have to admit guilt. If he admits guilt then he's potentially in deep trouble.

I have spoken directly to two guys who were with him at Harlequins (both played for Quins 1st XV)

They both said he was a bit of a nutcase

Brown gets 6 weeks

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Brown gets 6 weeks

Presumably 12 weeks mitigated down to 6?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Brown gets 6 weeks

Presumably 12 weeks mitigated down to 6?

Yes. Hard to argue - the checklist was High End (not intentional but ticked all the other boxes), no aggravation and full mitigation. His only course for appeal might be arguing that it wasn't reckless. It's a shame, because it ends his Quins career. Would have been nice to have at least one more match to give him a proper send off.

How are Bath managing to make a mess of their opportunities so consistently? They’ve done nothing with a two man advantage.

Poorfour wrote:How are Bath managing to make a mess of their opportunities so consistently? They’ve done nothing with a two man advantage.

To be fair Sale excellently ran down the clock when down to 14 Vs Tigers as well. Sale have made a mess of a few try scoring opportunities themselves.

Dickson doing his best to make a real mess of it as a ref but it's still broken into a good game at times.

formerly known as Sam wrote:TIGERS XV:
15 Freddie Steward [31]
14 Guy Porter [16]
13 Matt Scott [21]
12 Dan Kelly [16]
11 Nemani Nadolo [11]
10 George Ford [103]
9 Ben Youngs [259]
1 Ellis Genge [84]
2 Tom Youngs (c) [211]
3 Dan Cole [259]
4 Harry Wells [119]
5 Calum Green [58]
6 George Martin [13]
7 Tommy Reffell [43]
8 Jasper Wiese [15]
REPLACEMENTS:
16 Charlie Clare [30]
17 Luan de Bruin [16]
18 Joe Heyes [66]
19 Hanro Liebenberg [31]
20 Cyle Brink [15]
21 Richard Wigglesworth [12]
22 Zack Henry [22]
23 Kini Murimurivalu [18]
HARLEQUINS: 15 Tyrone Green, 14 Joe Marchant, 13 Luke Northmore, 12 James Lang, 11 Nathan Earle, 10 Marcus Smith, 9 Danny Care; 1 Joe Marler, 2 Scott Baldwin, 3 Wilco Louw, 4 Matt Symons, 5 Stephan Lewies (c), 6 Tom Lawday, 7 Jack Kenningham, 8 Alex Dombrandt
Replacements: 16 Joe Gray, 17 Santiago Garcia Botta, 18 Will Collier, 19 Dino Lamb, 20 James Chisholm, 21 Martin Landajo, 22 Will Edwards, 23 Ben Tapuai

Well the face off the halfbacks will be interesting, the England stalwarts vs the media darlings. Shame Brown got himself suspended because him Vs Steward would have been a good contest.

I like to play a game when I'm bored, I like to make an EQ XV out of the two opposing sides, I've got this:

01. Joe Marler (Quins)
02. Tom Youngs (Leicester)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester)
04. Matt Symons (Harlequins)
05. Callum Green (Leicester)
06. George Martin (Leicester)
07. Jack Kenningham (Harlequins)
08. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)

09. Danny Care (Harlequins)
10. George Ford (Leicester)

11. Nathan Earle (Harlequins)
12. Dan Kelly (Leicester)
13. Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
14. Guy Porter (Leicester)
15. Freddie Steward (Leicester)

Could argue either way on the half backs.

For Sale vs. Bath I got:

01. Ross Harrison (Sale)
02. Curtis Langdon (Sale)
03. Henry Thomas (Bath)
04. Will Spencer (Bath)
05. Charlie Ewels (Bath)
06. Sam Underhill (Bath)
07. Tom Curry (Sale)
08. Guy Mercer (Bath)

09. Ben Spencer (Bath)
10. Orlando Bailey (Bath)

11. Anthony Watson (Bath)
12. Sam Hill (Sale)
13. Sam James (Sale)
14. Marland Yarde (Sale)
15. Tom de Glanville (Bath)

I don't know if would effect your selection Cumbrian but the Tigers openside Tommy Reffell is EQ through residency and the Sale starting loosehead Bevan Rodd is EQ and played for England under 20s.

I thought Max Clark had a really good game in the Bath centres last night, did a lot of the unflashy graft to make things easier for the class around him but got in some nice offloads as well. He's part Welsh and I do wonder if he's not starting for Bath (and considering the class of their other centres that's a possibility) whether offers from across the border will start to come in. He's the kind of solid and combative centre that gives the midfield some good structure.

No way is Ellis Genges yellow card a yellow card!

Time for Leicester to channel Sale

Hey they did!

TightHEAD wrote:No way is Ellis Genges yellow card a yellow card!

Gets a card because he wraps the arms. Talk about the wrong message to send to a player. TMO driven Pearce wanted to play on.

It's just rugby.

My local club has lost a lot of players due to covid, once they play with these rules then they will lose even more. Don't want to knock your head, they play badminton.

I have no problem with contact with head equals card generally. What we are trying to get away from his shoulder to head contact. Genge's shoulder is nowhere near the Quins player's head and both arms are wrapped. It's in wrapping the right arm he's clipped the Quins player. If it was a forearm smash fine but it's not and there's nothing in it. That card isn't what the law interpretation was brought in to stop.

Superb game from a neutral's point of view. Thought Harlequins might just nick it at the end, but Leicester were good value for it.

Yes it got nervy at the end. When the showed the shot of Dombrandt offside at the kick and yeah not clear and obvious there was some imaginative word usage in my house as my three year old daughter was sat next to me and stopped the post watershed description.

Half backs won it for Tigers. Quins played too much rugby in the wrong areas of the field and gave away two penalties kicked for 6 points whilst attacking in their own 22. That cost them the game. Quins very dangerous in attack but Tigers looked destructive when all their big boys were charging off the shoulders of Youngs and Ford, some of the best attacking combination we've seen in a while.

If you are a life long fan of one club but they let you down year after year by poor management and poor play can you move down the road to your next nearest club? Say 11-13 miles????

TightHEAD wrote:If you are a life long fan of one club but they let you down year after year by poor management and poor play can you move down the road to your next nearest club? Say 11-13 miles????

Only your heart can tell you that.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yes it got nervy at the end. When the showed the shot of Dombrandt offside at the kick and yeah not clear and obvious there was some imaginative word usage in my house as my three year old daughter was sat next to me and stopped the post watershed description.

Half backs won it for Tigers. Quins played too much rugby in the wrong areas of the field and gave away two penalties kicked for 6 points whilst attacking in their own 22. That cost them the game. Quins very dangerous in attack but Tigers looked destructive when all their big boys were charging off the shoulders of Youngs and Ford, some of the best attacking combination we've seen in a while.

I'd flip that and say the staring pack is what won it, even with both props being naughty. Both Care and Smith better than their opposite numbers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Yes it got nervy at the end. When the showed the shot of Dombrandt offside at the kick and yeah not clear and obvious there was some imaginative word usage in my house as my three year old daughter was sat next to me and stopped the post watershed description.

Half backs won it for Tigers. Quins played too much rugby in the wrong areas of the field and gave away two penalties kicked for 6 points whilst attacking in their own 22. That cost them the game. Quins very dangerous in attack but Tigers looked destructive when all their big boys were charging off the shoulders of Youngs and Ford, some of the best attacking combination we've seen in a while.

I'd flip that and say the staring pack is what won it, even with both props being naughty. Both Care and Smith better than their opposite numbers.

Absolutely ridiculous. Care and Smith offered no control over the game at all. They played on the wrong areas of the pitch and kicked appallingly badly. Youngs and Ford put their forwards into the right areas and then pulled the strings in those right areas just as well as Care and Smith did. Care played like a rookie and was one of the main reasons Quins lost the game, Youngs invoice for the lesson provided should be in the post. Smith was somewhat better than Care and if he'd had a better scrum half could have flourished but jumping out the line for Ford to pull his pants down for the first try and then 3 missed conversions isn't a good look.

Tigers pack in defence was very good, Reffell the Tigers openside was exceptional but I don't think he'd have had the same licence to cause havoc had Evans been playing.

Wow.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wow.

Come on surely it's simple rugby. You have a backline with that much attacking talent why do you mess around trucking the ball up in your own 22? Marchant looked electric (he must tour this summer) but barely touched the ball, Green the fullback had a great game but rarely were put one on on e with the slower Tigers wingers.

I thought that in the whole the Leicester pack was to the fore. The only thing I thought that Smith lacked today was his kicks tontouch regularly landed at 10 m rather than 5. Bar that switch the half backs around and Leicester would have won by 30.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought that in the whole the Leicester pack was to the fore. The only thing I thought that Smith lacked today was his kicks tontouch regularly landed at 10 m rather than 5. Bar that switch the half backs around and Leicester would have won by 30.

Tigers didn't sub their half backs with next week's final in mind and they would have.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought that in the whole the Leicester pack was to the fore. The only thing I thought that Smith lacked today was his kicks tontouch regularly landed at 10 m rather than 5. Bar that switch the half backs around and Leicester would have won by 30.

Tigers didn't sub their half backs with next week's final in mind and they would have.

They really wouldn't. Dont know why you rate Youngs so highly he was anonymous again. Ford great player but Smith at the moment, his form his better. Like I said bar the kicks for touch he was great again. You saw everyone he got the ball he was picking the right options.

Would have helped me out on Superbru if Smith had kicked one more conversion ...

There's a touch of the Cipriani reaction about Smith these days. Whenever he does something nice, it seems to get more praise than if another player did the same. This is partly because there is an immediate projection to how good it would be for England if someone could bring that to the squad.

Having said that, Smith does look good. Yesterday, though, Ford's kicking out of hand was far superior. In the opening stages of the match, Quins had no answer to Leicester's forwards. Ford's kicks kept Quins pinned in close to their line, and tries came as a result. While there was a lot else in that match, the result ultimately came down to Tigers cashing in on their advantages.

I think your second paragraph is key. Its because he's good. Indeed the stand out fly half in England this year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think your second paragraph is key. Its because he's good. Indeed the stand out fly half in England this year.

Oh he is and I want him starting England games this summer. I very much like the way Smith plays and look forward to him developing further. We saw the 80 cap difference in experience yesterday though had Smith had Youngs and not Care that difference would have been a bit less.

England need to get Smith in and playing because a) competition is good for the squad and the experience will improve Smith making the recognised incumbents have to up their game and b) Farrell is 30 and Ford 28 the world cup is in two years and that point we are looking at problems in terms of flyhalfs with caps. Got to do some succession planning soon.

formerly known as Sam wrote:...England need to get Smith in and playing because a) competition is good for the squad and the experience will improve Smith making the recognised incumbents have to up their game and b) Farrell is 30 and Ford 28 the world cup is in two years and that point we are looking at problems in terms of flyhalfs with caps. Got to do some succession planning soon.

It's also evident that Smith has thrived as he has got to understand the players around him at Quins, and vice versa. None of the Quins scrum halves look like being selected, and Marchant is still on the fringes, so we need to see how Smith can operate with different players around him. If he looks good, then he needs as much time with them as possible.

TightHEAD wrote:If you are a life long fan of one club but they let you down year after year by poor management and poor play can you move down the road to your next nearest club? Say 11-13 miles????

No because that would be.....Sunderland..

Nowt wrong with Mackem Wanderers, least they knew the difference between a French Sailor and a Monkey.
If Sunderland is not your thing, be monkey hanger.

Now down to serious business, the Saints side to play GF's mismanaged side:

15 George Furbank
14 Ollie Sleightholme
13 Matt Proctor
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 Tommy Freeman
10 James Grayson
9 Tom James

1 Alex Waller (co-capt)
2 Sam Matavesi
3 Paul Hill
4 David Ribbans
5 Api Ratuniyarawa
6 Tom Wood
7 Lewis Ludlam (co-capt)
8 Teimana Harrison

Replacements:
16 Mike Haywood
17 Nick Auterac
18 Ehren Painter
19 Alex Coles
20 Shaun Adendorff
21 Henry Taylor
22 Fraser Dingwall
23 Tom Collins

Not available due to injury:
Piers Francis (quadricep), Owen Franks (foot), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (achilles), Nick Isiekwe (pectoral), Courtney Lawes (pectoral), and Alex Mitchell (ankle).

Referee: Matthew Carley

Quite a strong side, I thought we might get some experiments now that we stand little chance of a top 4 finish, having said that we do have the next member of the Grayson dynasty playing, that will be interesting.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Nowt wrong with Mackem Wanderers, least they knew the difference between a French Sailor and a Monkey.
If Sunderland is not your thing, be monkey hanger.

I take great offence to this comment.....

We knew the difference, we just weren't sure if he was a spy a or not!

So your MH then Sgt.

Don't worry about it, your in good company, my father was from, as he always said, WEST Hartlepool. Massive emphasis on the West element. I believe that in the long distant past, they were regarded as two towns.

Had a very good rugby team at one point as well.

I've been so very critical of Schreuder but hes starting to prove me wrong...much of attacking play is coming through his pace now...

Ah knock on

Ah now Chick off on a yellow

Been in their 22 for long periods...on 4 times and come away with no points....not a good stat...

Well Bristol is eventful. Disallowed try for sinckler and now a red for Allemano.

What a tackle by Orlando on Ribbans....

37 mins gone....first points of the game go to to saints

3-0

2nd disallowed try, a knock over the line, one held up over the line and now Gloucester down to 13. 20 mins gone.

Are you watching Mr Craig.

Hooper out.

HT

3-3 we've had the territorial advantage and should really be ahead but good defensive show by saints so far