England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

Yeah i really hope he focuses on Hooker. Purely for the sake he'll be incredible (if he can hack the core duties of a hooker at international level of course) .

We have a host of very good back rowers and upcoming ones. Imagine having a carrier like him at 2! Wow.

It looks as though the summer tour for England might have to change with USA being replaced by Georgia.

Would love to see Barbeary rampaging around at hooker, but part of me is reminded of others like Marler who’ve not been able to bring their carrying to international level because of the demands of the front row.

Unless Barbeary can demonstrate it at Prem level first, he should be considered as a back row option for this tour. There was a good article recently in the Telegraph saying he should focus on 8 and be the big carrying Vunipola replacement

BamBam wrote:Would love to see Barbeary rampaging around at hooker, but part of me is reminded of others like Marler who’ve not been able to bring their carrying to international level because of the demands of the front row.

Unless Barbeary can demonstrate it at Prem level first, he should be considered as a back row option for this tour. There was a good article recently in the Telegraph saying he should focus on 8 and be the big carrying Vunipola replacement

There are a bunch of opinions and no real right or wrong answers. I tend to think he has a USP if he can play from hooker, but has some serious competition at 8. He's also very young and has that particular kind of hype around him that always comes when the new guy does something special.

We don't know what Wasps will do with him but him playing in the back row seems to be part of a long term plan. He's not going to be the finished article for a couple of years. Also worth pointing out that Wasps have previous history with hooker/backrow hybrids with Ashley Johnson.

BamBam wrote:Would love to see Barbeary rampaging around at hooker, but part of me is reminded of others like Marler who’ve not been able to bring their carrying to international level because of the demands of the front row.

Unless Barbeary can demonstrate it at Prem level first, he should be considered as a back row option for this tour. There was a good article recently in the Telegraph saying he should focus on 8 and be the big carrying Vunipola replacement

I agree with Marler but I'm not sure the same pressure is on the hooker as it is a prop.

Yeah probably true Pooly. I'd at least want to see a run of games at hooker in the Prem before he gets that position in the England squad, but its also hard to leave him out of a development squad at this point

Is Barbaery a lineout option? Or do then go back to needing a lineout option at 6?

The 6n Review is in...

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rugby-football-union-concludes-six-nations-debrief

Not unsurprising that GF. Contributing factors noted there is pretty much what we said throughout the tournament, you get the impression that England will improve massively, obviously it'll be a fair routine sweep in the summer, but I expect that there will be some key differences to the Autumn campaign in comparison to the 6Ns. If we do struggle in the AIs then I think there will be pressure on Jones and the mention of further reviews in the article backs that up for me.

Yeah i agree 7.5

They'll give him this one...but now hes being watched...but i suspect we will see a very different England in the AI's...as he begins the route to the WC.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Barbaery a lineout option? Or do then go back to needing a lineout option at 6?

At just over 6 foot tall and 18 stone I suspect he is more of a lifter than a jumper at the lineout - in Wasps matches I have watched I can't recall having seen him jump.

I note that he was a centre before being pushed into the frontrow by Wasps, which presumably explains his carrying ability.  With the lack of a big centre able to truck the ball up it would be interesting to see him perhaps look at reverting back into the centres.  South Africa in particular seem to like their centres to be powerful direct ball carriers,  and England don't seem short of decent hookers at the moment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Barbaery a lineout option? Or do then go back to needing a lineout option at 6?

I don't remember seeing him with any lifting strapping on his legs so I'd guess probably not. He's not particularly tall either. Eddie managed without a lock height jumper for the RWC though as let's face it no one's lifting Billy V are they.

Dane Coles and Malcolm Marx are able to rampage around the pitch and still do the nuts and bolts at hooker.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah i agree 7.5

They'll give him this one...but now hes being watched...but i suspect we will see a very different England in the AI's...as he begins the route to the WC.

I'm hoping and do think it was an understandable blip. It would also be in our best interest if the Lions tour is cancelled as it should be.

Why do you think it is in England's best interest for the Lions tour to be cancelled?  Does it not give Eddie a 'free hit' to try out some new players instead of the usual tried and tested if they are away with the Lions. If the new players do well then they stay in the team for the AIs putting pressure on established players to up their game.  One of the criticisms of the current England team is that some of the players appear to be undroppable and simply 'surfing' through matches.  It doesn't hurt anyone to know that you are only as good as your last couple of games and that if you don't produce there is someone waiting to take your shirt.

Sharkey06 wrote:Why do you think it is in England's best interest for the Lions tour to be cancelled?  Does it not give Eddie a 'free hit' to try out some new players instead of the usual tried and tested if they are away with the Lions. If the new players do well then they stay in the team for the AIs putting pressure on established players to up their game.  One of the criticisms of the current England team is that some of the players appear to be undroppable and simply 'surfing' through matches.  It doesn't hurt anyone to know that you are only as good as your last couple of games and that if you don't produce there is someone waiting to take your shirt.

The tour as it is will be used to try out new players regardless of the Lions so it then makes sense that those who may well get selected are afforded a proper rest heading into the autumn. It's not just to the benefit of England but also Ireland and Wales.

Fair comment as long as Eddie does take this on board and rests the senior players who don't go on the Lions tour - Youngs, Ford, Vunipola(s), etc.

I would like to see the likes of Ellis Genge and Will Stuart go and see how they perform as 'senior players', rather than as second stringers. I think we need to see if they can step up with the pressure on - currently i don't think they have really had or taken responsibility.

Sharkey06 wrote:Fair comment as long as Eddie does take this on board and rests the senior players who don't go on the Lions tour - Youngs, Ford, Vunipola(s), etc.

I would like to see the likes of Ellis Genge and Will Stuart go and see how they perform as 'senior players', rather than as second stringers.  I think we need to see if they can step up with the pressure on - currently i don't think they have really had or taken responsibility.

I don't think taking second string players does us any favours to be honest. Genge and Stuart have had some game time we broadly know what they can do. The issues are we have no real idea what is after third choice. Harry Williams is the third choice tighthead he's solid but little else at international level and with Marler making himself absent then Obano is third choice loosehead with I think one cap to his name. We need to generate some depth and competition. Take Obano and Williams but the take some other up and coming props. Let it be known that the opportunity to push the incumbents is up for grabs, we have quite a few promising props which is a real novelty. Get them into the system and let's see who steps up.

Competition is good, it drives players on to keep improving. Currently I think the England first team is a little stale and there's no real competition for places. Need to shake it up a bit.

LH - Obano, West, Rodd
TH - Heyes, Williams, Hill

Six props all doing well in the league. All under 30. All bar Williams 26 and under. A nice mix of experience. If Street or Painter make a late push could maybe find space for one of them instead of Williams.

Much the same for the rest of the squad. Outside of the youngsters like Malins, Marchant, Lawrence and Martin no need to take anyone who played from the 6N. We've got enough depth to make it work.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Barbaery a lineout option? Or do then go back to needing a lineout option at 6?

I don't remember seeing him with any lifting strapping on his legs so I'd guess probably not. He's not particularly tall either. Eddie managed without a lock height jumper for the RWC though as let's face it no one's lifting Billy V are they.

Dane Coles and Malcolm Marx are able to rampage around the pitch and still do the nuts and bolts at hooker.

Thats exactly my hope Sam. We have so many resources in the back row...I'd love to have a rampaging Barbeary at hooker...

Then move Sam Simmonds to 12 and we're all good...

Any ideas when the squad is announced for this one? I didn’t realise there was such a gap between the Barbarians game and the other 3, will they be in camp together throughout?

Where are the games being played...at Twickers?

With Sheedy out Malins starts at fly half for Bristol. His better position for me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:With Sheedy out Malins starts at fly half for Bristol. His better position for me.

Hmm I'm not convinced but very interested to see how he goes. I think playing at 15 gives him time on the ball to set attacks rolling. He's an ideal option if you want to attack from deep. From memory he's not played much at 10 though he is a secondary playmaker so it'll be interesting to see how he goes.

Think he played more as a 10 than 15 at Saracens, certainly coming through the youth ranks he was a fly half. Personally I think his real strength is playing very flat to the line. He's at the age either way he needs to start pulling up trees or others will move past him very quickly. He's probably going to get more chances at 10 vs Sheedy than 15 vs Piutau who if he was in NZ think he'd be in the All Blacks side.

There's some very exciting young 10s and 15s coming through...so yes Malins will probably be looking to make that 15 spot his own thus summer AI.
But i really do think Steward could be a BIG obstacle in that one...

On the basis that but for one game Eddie has started Ford or Farrell for all games do you think being an exciting young 10 gets you anywhere? At least at 15 Eddie has been willing to change. So if Mallins wants some England caps stick to 15.

Maybe the new batch of 10s are more rounded and what Jones is looking for. He must know himself Farrell is not good enough to be a top international 10.

That leaves him with only ford. He MUST bring through some 10s and 9s now.

They'll be on the tour and then they need to put pressure on. I don't necessarily agree with must for fly half ie its not like when Lancaster came with incumbents either not good enough or getting ling in the tooth. Smith though is consistently making the point in the prem and needs to out the same case this summer.

Scrum half agree we need to move on from youngs ASAP and this far no one has had a sniff in getting a run of games. Of hes looked at Robson closely and felt hes not up to it then the youngsters need game time.

Ah man Mitchell off injured. That could be a blow to development.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah man Mitchell off injured. That could be a blow to development.

Don't know the scope of the injury yet, but but he showed some mobility as he came off.  

I think 10 will be tough going forward.  Ford did not have a great game yesterday and if not a one off, then who is England's out half?

Well Smith, simmonds, unavailable, Atkinson potentially even vunipola should injuries start to crop up. I'm moving more into the mindset of this actually just being the saxons with the added bonus of tying players to England. Should Mitchell be injured just go with Randall and JVP.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah man Mitchell off injured. That could be a blow to development.

Don't know the scope of the injury yet, but but he showed some mobility as he came off.  

I think 10 will be tough going forward.  Ford did not have a great game yesterday and if not a one off, then who is England's out half?

Ford was poor yesterday, he had a real off day. Been a long time since I've seen one those as he's normally carrying Tigers. I think losing his 12 and effectively the midfield early on didn't help. Unusual to see him being average off the tee though.

JVP looked excellent off the bench (again) but he's not ready for international rugby. He's the player you probably go to post World Cup, JVP is 19 now so by post RWC he'll be 21 and have plenty of games under his belt. Benny's playing reliably well though not pulling up trees. Experiment around him as the constant. Select from the young guys with regular Prem game time this summer Randall, Maunder, Uren, Mitchell. Best one goes into the Robson role of challenging Benny for the starting berth getting at least one start in the Autumn.

You're old enough if you're good enough

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're old enough if you're good enough

There's elements of his game he's working on. Biggest example is his box kicking, he's long legged so he can get some real power in it and his accuracy is good but it's a long wind up. He'll be targeted for charge downs hard. A bit more experience in his decision making won't hurt either. I think he's very likely to be a regular international but it can hurt a youngsters confidence if they come in too early and their areas of development are exploited.

The eternal question, do you pick a style and then the players to suit that style or do you pick the best players and adapt the style to them.

Jones is obviously the former, as a result are we suffering as our best players are not being picked and even when obviously way off form, he will not experiment.

How about a stodge vs flair game to see which sides comes out on top.

Well obano doing his best to have a summer off. Red card. Reid putting his name forward belatedly outplayed his more famous flanker partner.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well obano doing his best to have a summer off. Red card. Reid putting his name forward belatedly outplayed his more famous flanker partner.

Well, he was using his head.....

Launchbury out as well now by the looks so it really is a saxons tour with potentially the guys around the fringes for a while taking a more prominent place: maybe Ewels or dombrandt as captain?

I'm my mind theres going to be a few fillers to the squad, a few guys who could onto big things and some knocking on the door loudly. Who are people hoping to see go well who could trouble the 1st team in the autumn?

For me its dombrandt, Randall, Smith, odogwu as a centre, Steward and Cokanasiga who is starting to show some form again.

Those wingers at London Irish look a bit good too. Potentially a spot opening up if Watson gets a go at full back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well obano doing his best to have a summer off. Red card. Reid putting his name forward belatedly outplayed his more famous flanker partner.

Callum Chick once again excellent in a side that capitulated worse than i thought possible.

Miles Reid (fun fact, he lives on my road) played well for Bath again. I'm not sure he will ever get to the level needed to break into the current England team, but he is another player that would have got caps in a leaner period. I wonder if Chick will fall into that category too.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Who are people hoping to see go well who could trouble the 1st team in the autumn?
.

Lots of young players too look at.

Malins should play as hes new, and needs to bed in that spot...but he's got competition from Steward, Freeman...and even Tom Penny is playing top class stuff in a woeful falcons. Callum Chick and George Mcguigan are top class also...again in a woeful falcons. McGuigan is one of the best hookers in the league at the moment, but hes only in the 14st range...so very lightweight.

Mitchel and Randall need to be looked at.

Centres...Devoto, Lawrence and Odogwu...

Wings...Id give Cockasaniga some gametime...along with Slightholme and Ollie Cassell at London Irish. Shame Radwan is out long term. But theres so many talented young kids.

Smith clearly needs to start some games at 10. Not sure what Jones isnt seeing in him? Atkinson at wasps?

Locks...i'd insist Isiekwe move back to lock...and fulfil the potential. Id also give Johnny Hill more games. I just think he is seriously good...and must see how he develops at this level.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: Who are people hoping to see go well who could trouble the 1st team in the autumn?
.

Lots of young players too look at.

Malins should play as hes new, and needs to bed in that spot...but he's got competition from Steward, Freeman...and even Tom Penny is playing top class stuff in a woeful falcons. Callum Chick and George Mcguigan are top class also...again in a woeful falcons. McGuigan is one of the best hookers in the league at the moment, but hes only in the 14st range...so very lightweight.

Mitchel and Randall need to be looked at.

Centres...Devoto, Lawrence and Odogwu...

Wings...Id give Cockasaniga some gametime...along with Slightholme and Ollie Cassell at London Irish. Shame Radwan is out long term. But theres so many talented young kids.

Smith clearly needs to start some games at 10. Not sure what Jones isnt seeing in him? Atkinson at wasps?

Locks...i'd insist Isiekwe move back to lock...and fulfil the potential. Id also give Johnny Hill more games. I just think he is seriously good...and must see how he develops at this level.

I agree about Jonny Hill and Nick Isiekwe. I would probably throw in Joel Kpoku and George Martin too. Leftfield selections might include Chunya Munga (Irish)

It is interesting to see the second-row stocks renew themselves again as Launchbury and Lawes head into the twilight of their careers. With the selection above you’d get four locks under the age of 23 who are getting (varying degrees) of playing time.

Sorry i forgot all about George Martin...yes he must play some games. And Ted Hill must in the squad also.

Yes, your right about the locks...and there's some really big physical athletic guys in there.

For hookers, I guess you would have to include the Barbearian. I'd also look at Capon from Bristol, my mate who supports them suggested keeping an eye on Kloska too (his words were Bristol produces it's fair share of hookers, might have been a bit tongue in cheek.)

When you start writing down names it soon becomes difficult at picking your team (in a good way).

Cumbrian wrote:

I agree about Jonny Hill and Nick Isiekwe.  I would probably throw in Joel Kpoku and George Martin too.  Leftfield selections might include Chunya Munga (Irish)

It is interesting to see the second-row stocks renew themselves again as Launchbury and Lawes head into the twilight of their careers. With the selection above you’d get four locks under the age of 23 who are getting (varying degrees) of playing time.

Back three for London Irish will be there or there abouts in the conversation. OHC probably with his nose in front if there's a wing slot going.

Even with my most biased LI hat on though, Chunya Munga isn't in the ball park yet. May be in future but not right now. Someone like Theo Brophy Clews or Will Goodrick0-Clark would be the just about plausible leftfield selections from the club imo.

Margin_Walker wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

I agree about Jonny Hill and Nick Isiekwe.  I would probably throw in Joel Kpoku and George Martin too.  Leftfield selections might include Chunya Munga (Irish)

It is interesting to see the second-row stocks renew themselves again as Launchbury and Lawes head into the twilight of their careers. With the selection above you’d get four locks under the age of 23 who are getting (varying degrees) of playing time.

Back three for London Irish will be there or there abouts in the conversation. OHC probably with his nose in front if there's a wing slot going.

Even with my most biased LI hat on though, Chunya Munga isn't in the ball park yet. May be in future but not right now. Someone like Theo Brophy Clews or Will Goodrick0-Clark would be the just about plausible leftfield selections from the club imo.

True enough, but I had a point to make and come hell, high water or inexperienced rugby players I was going to make it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:When you start writing down names it soon becomes difficult at picking your team (in a good way).

Ok heres a starter...

1 Obano
2 Capon / Blamire / A.Nother - Lots of options
3 Hayes
4 Isiekwe / Martin
5 J. Hill
6 T. Hill
7 B. Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Mitchell (Randall bench, and starts the next game, Mitchell off bench)
10 Smith (Atkinson from the bench)
11 Cockasaniga
12 Devoto (Lawrence bench, and starts the next game, Devoto off bench)
13 Odogwu
14 Slightholme / Hassle Collins
15 Malins

The big question!!
Barbeary - where the hell does he fit in

Cumbrian wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

I agree about Jonny Hill and Nick Isiekwe.  I would probably throw in Joel Kpoku and George Martin too.  Leftfield selections might include Chunya Munga (Irish)

It is interesting to see the second-row stocks renew themselves again as Launchbury and Lawes head into the twilight of their careers. With the selection above you’d get four locks under the age of 23 who are getting (varying degrees) of playing time.

Back three for London Irish will be there or there abouts in the conversation. OHC probably with his nose in front if there's a wing slot going.

Even with my most biased LI hat on though, Chunya Munga isn't in the ball park yet. May be in future but not right now. Someone like Theo Brophy Clews or Will Goodrick0-Clark would be the just about plausible leftfield selections from the club imo.

True enough, but I had a point to make and come hell, high water or inexperienced rugby players I was going to make it.

TBF, despite just about every player under the sun being name checked in a thread like this, there will no doubt be a head scratcher in the somewhere.

Cumbrian wrote:Miles Reid (fun fact, he lives on my road) played well for Bath again.  I'm not sure he will ever get to the level needed to break into the current England team, but he is another player that would have got caps in a leaner period.  I wonder if Chick will fall into that category too.

If Ludlam doesn't get another look in he'd be another. A terrific openside.

Will Evans has consistently stood out for Quins all seasons too. A real shame he's broken his tibia and will miss the rest of the season.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:When you start writing down names it soon becomes difficult at picking your team (in a good way).

Ok heres a starter...

1 Obano
2 Capon / Blamire / A.Nother - Lots of options
3 Hayes
4 Isiekwe / Martin
5 J. Hill
6 T. Hill
7 B. Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Mitchell (Randall bench, and starts the next game, Mitchell off bench)
10 Smith (Atkinson from the bench)
11 Cockasaniga
12 Devoto (Lawrence bench, and starts the next game, Devoto off bench)
13 Odogwu
14 Slightholme / Hassle Collins
15 Malins

The big question!!
Barbeary - where the hell does he fit in

Barbeary is a big lad. He fits in anywhere he wants to!