England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

Selections for the Lions do open things up a bit, whilst also we haven't seen the tight five decimated as much as might've been the case and a fair bit of experience to ensure some continuity and quality. The reserve props getting time with England leading the pack is a good thing for their development.

Farrell not being there I see as a blessing too. It enables Jones to try a new captain whilst still fudging a decision on him, as well as seeing how a midfield operates without him. I am one of those fence sitters on him, like late career Wilkinson everyone had it in for him till he wasn't there. But his form has stunk so much, maybe the pressure of the captaincy, and he was at the heart of the gameplan that went badly off the rails. If England have decided to move away from that and are looking to evolve their play he may find himself no longer an automatic starter when he returns. Or a lack of cohesion and inability to play to plan by whoever does get picked could see him nailed back in.

Anyone know if Youngs ruling himself out of the Lions also extends to the America tour? Its shorter and less demanding, and him not being there will very much open the door to players who could take his place.

BVP is another of those problem players, but he should still be selected for the squad to see if he's got the drive to get himself fit and back on it. If he turns up off again then theres still scope to a replacement in the squad even if theres still a lack of candidates.

Flankers wise England have a lot of options, maybe ironic that Simmonds has gone but theres plenty deserving a spot still from the established wider squad. Underhill couldve been a Lions pick IMO.

Finding some centers who look international class would be nice. Slades got capped a lot for England without ever looking the answer. Hes not been their biggest problem, and I know a lot of people blame Farrell outside him or Englands tactics but he really does seem to be one of those players who looks better at club level than test. Again Farrell not being there really opens things up, although that could mean Slade filling the second play maker at 12.

Really do hope he gives one of the outstanding young fly halves a start. I haven't been following club game that closely this season due to life but there were four candidates banging on the door through autumn and winter. Assume Manu Vunipola is playing in the chumpionship?

When it comes to fullback ...with both Daly and Watson away we'd be down to fourth choice if Mallins isn't seen as the option. I wasn't overly impressed by his test appearances but do find it quite amusing to see comments from those desperate to see him included and banging on about how unfair it was to judge Furbank on limited game time now writing him off.

Really the selections are wide open. Jones has shown he can be ruthless in the past, and although he's backed his core squad very closely post world cup you have to assume part of his job retention meeting involved having a clear development plan. Its really hard to predict how this squad will shape up, but he did always say he'd intended the abandoned Japan tour to be an opportunity for young players, and that there could be a post Lions evolution. Would love to have a transcript of the meeting with the RFU to really know what the plan is.

Very likely he will take a handful of very raw players too beyond Odogwu, Randall and Obanao. Even without as many Lions as we might've predicted a year ago all best are off as far as the squad and side make up IMO, and that extends to the autumn too. If you ask Ugo Monye of course England should be picking Brown at fullback and Care at SH for the tour.

Malins playing on the wing today. Just had a try ruled out for a forward pass.

Malins vs Furbank. I didn't feel Furbank offered anything. Malins mostly didn't shine (who did?) but there were the odd moments where you think he might have more of a future, but hopefully there is more competition now.

Gooseberry wrote:Anyone know if Youngs ruling himself out of the Lions also extends to the America tour? Its shorter and less demanding, and him not being there will very much open the door to players who could take his place.  

The games are being played at Twickenham Goose rather than touring due to covid. Presumably the players will still bubble but only for around 3 weeks or maybe 4 weeks tops.

On Lenny in particular I'd presume he will have the summer off but you never know. Given he's ruled himself out of the Lions there won't be a desire to use the games to stay in the shop window for injury replacements. I could see Billy involved for that reason though which would be a bit frustrating. Maybe players such as Marler, Sinckler, Ford and May as well. Personally I'd prefer to see what others can do in positions of strength.

I was really surprised by how many pundits reckoned Slade would tour with the Lions. Since the RWC he's been average to anonymous with England in my opinion. He had some very good games just before and during the RWC but they've been few and far between in a lot of caps now. A few pundits cited versatility but the only position he'd possibly have been in the frame for with tests is 13. His chances at 12 were anonymous, he's not played 10 in years and has 30 minutes at fullback in an injury crisis - though he covered well to be fair. Others cited his kicking game but he doesn't actually kick that much for England which is perhaps telling of his consistency with the boot. A bit boom or bust.

His defensive solidity means he doesn't really have terrible games but he hasn't had many standout ones either. I'm a broken record but I still think Joseph is the better international 13. JJ has that same defensive ability that means his quieter games are still solid but his high points have been higher and more frequent I think.

There shouldn't be a need for any form of bubble when the games are taking place seeing as they fall after June 21st?

JJ vs Slade. JJ at his best was very good indeed. The question is how well the current version stacks up in comparison and i don't knoww the answer.

Some interesting calls for Jones. I've been in the mindset that slade isn't good enough for a while too hence want Lawrence and odogwu to get game time. You've also got Marchant in there who I think has overtaken Joseph in terms of form and then the looming presence of Tuilagi who I thought was sure to be off to France.

lostinwales wrote:JJ vs Slade. JJ at his best was very good indeed. The question is how well the current version stacks up in comparison and i don't knoww the answer.

When JJ first returned from his long term injury I felt his impact wasn't anywhere near before the injury. I was worried he'd just lost that acceleration and footwork that is vital to his game. In the ANC I was delighted to eat my words though as I felt he was back to somewhere near his best despite playing much of it out of position. Then he was dropped after the ANC which surprised me.

Lawrence and Marchant look rounded young players, Manu staying is a big boost and Odogwu is a talent so I wouldn't be upset if we looked beyond Slade and JJ for a time. They are both young enough to still challenge the 2023 RWC squad if the young guns can't step-up with opportunities.

Piers O'Conor also looks a very good player.

I still maintain Slade looks more suited to 12 than 13 in my opinion....

And sorry to bang on but Calum Chick was excellent again today.

Now I know Dombrant is in poll position and rightly so...but the chasing group of Tom Willis , Chick, Mercer (I know hes away) etc are playing some cracking rugby....

Has Tom Dunn ruled him out for the summer tour? I think it was March he got sent off for an elbow to the face of Creevy. I can't imagine another cheap shot is going to see him given much mitigation. No mitigation and it could be 8 weeks.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Has Tom Dunn ruled him out for the summer tour? I think it was March he got sent off for an elbow to the face of Creevy. I can't imagine another cheap shot is going to see him given much mitigation. No mitigation and it could be 8 weeks.

It was pretty boneheaded too, throwing his shoulder at a player's head is bad enough, but with his harm at his side, what did he think he was going to happen?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Has Tom Dunn ruled him out for the summer tour? I think it was March he got sent off for an elbow to the face of Creevy. I can't imagine another cheap shot is going to see him given much mitigation. No mitigation and it could be 8 weeks.

Ah well a spot for George Mcguigan...?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I still maintain Slade looks more suited to 12 than 13 in my opinion....

Si amigo.
No questions in my mind. But he only gets time at 10 and 13.

I thought slade would have made a good 12. Good skill set but just not good enough. Hes had enough chances. Like Daly some would like just 1 more position where perhaps he becomes the answer. Neither will.

With LCD and George away, and perhaps with Dunn not available - England are forced to try some new hookers, and I presume need 3  in the squad.  Though not first choice for Bristol, Capon seems reasonable but none will have any real international experience, so interesting choices.

Singleton would be the obvious choice id have thought. Already played under Jones.

Perhaps with the exception of hooker there are lots of talented players in the premiership in most positions.

Maybe it might be better if England rested any regular starting 15 player not with the Lions and started to use this talent

For example: -

Steward at 15 has been playing well for Leicester and is rock solid under the high-ball.

Lots of good wingers (Sleightholme, O'Flaherty, Nowell (if not injured), Hassell-Collins, etc.)

Marchant, Lawrence, and Odogwu have promise at centre, and O'Connor is well worth a try at 12.

Even without Ford, Smith and Simmonds/Omaga cover fly-half

There are several good scrum-halves (Spencer / Mitchell).

In the pack the props are covered (Genge, Obano, Hill, Heyes, etc.).

Lock might be a bit thin with Lawes/Itoje/Hill with the Lions and Launchbury injured leaving Ewels, Martin, Ribbans, etc.

Even without Simmonds and Vunipola (and injuries to Willis and Evans) there are plenty of backrow candidates in Dombrant, Mercer, Hill, Ludham, Reid, Earle, etc.  Perhaps too old now but I have always liked Ewers.

Singleton has a lot of talent he's just been a bit off the boil since moving away from Worcester where he really broke through. Hooker must be a tough position to switch club in though. Not only lineouts to learn but a hookers role does differ a fair bit club to club.

On defensive lineouts for instance some clubs predominantly use hookers as lifters and counter maulers whilst others use them as 'tail gunners' standing just beyond the lineout to chop down peel moves and backs running that classic Jamie Roberts line at the blindspot between the lineout and the fly-half. Two completely different roles there.

In attack a club such as Tigers have largely tried to use their hookers to hit a high volume of rucks to clear the ball and free up back rows in recent seasons. Worcester when Singleton and Taufete'e were there did almost the opposite using those two as link men and carriers. Wasps hookers seem to pick and go a lot around the fringes, presumably to try to manufacture space to play of 9 and bring Robson into the game. Exeter use LCD and Yeandle to take tap and go pens around the goal line to push the tempo and wear down defences. All very different roles.

Sale having 3 smaller but very dynamic hookers in Akker van der Merwe, Langdon and Neild use their hooker as prominent chasers of box kicks. Ewan Ashman despite being a more traditional hooker build seems to have developed a really big engine to keep up with that. Messaging a couple of Sale fans about Ashman after yesterdays game they seemed really impressed by how far his fitness has come in a short time span.

That word vomit boils down to Singleton being a player I'd have no qualms with England persevering with despite his on/off form of late. I also really rate Will Capon, Jamie Blamire and would be happy with England looking at the aforementioned Ewan Ashman. McGuigan has been strong for Falcons this season too.

cb wrote:With LCD and George away, and perhaps with Dunn not available - England are forced to try some new hookers, and I presume need 3  in the squad.  Though not first choice for Bristol, Capon seems reasonable but none will have any real international experience, so interesting choices.

McGuigan is a Saxon, and co captain of the Falcons. Top try scorer for us...and quality.
If was playing for Bristol or Exeter people would be fawning all over him...

I suspect Ashman will be in the Scotland squad this summer. Langdon at Sale might be worth looking at, he seems a Pretty handy option.

Well Robson and Smith looking very good today. Every time Odogwu gets the ball hes making metres and looking dangerous.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Every time Odogwu gets the ball he's making metres and looking dangerous.

Can't have that in the current England set-up, now, can we? It will distort the delicate balance we have achieved during the Six Nations,

No 7&1/2 wrote:Singleton would be the obvious choice id have thought. Already played under Jones.

Strike 1.

cb wrote:With LCD and George away, and perhaps with Dunn not available - England are forced to try some new hookers, and I presume need 3  in the squad.  Though not first choice for Bristol, Capon seems reasonable but none will have any real international experience, so interesting choices.

Barbeary,

You not a fan of Singleton then doc? Thought he was older than 24. Would Jones want to play Barbeary as a hooker before he plays there for Wasps in a senior capacity? I have no idea how good he is in the front row and on throwing.

I think this tour should mostly be about the newbies.  yes, with a small core of experienced guys, but mostly a U23or 25 type of tour.  Because I am lazy, I will append my comments to yours.  With proper affirmation, of course).  

cb wrote:Perhaps with the exception of hooker there are lots of talented players in the premiership in most positions.

Maybe it might be better if England rested any regular starting 15 player not with the Lions and started to use this talent

For example: -

Steward at 15 has been playing well for Leicester and is rock solid under the high-ball.  Steward=meh,  Nice player, great under high ball, bit not seeing the rest of what he can deliver - Furby

Lots of good wingers (Sleightholme, O'Flaherty, Nowell (if not injured), Hassell-Collins, etc.) Must add in Freeman, though not a full season of excellence under his belt, just 2021, but talent which makes other people better  

Marchant, Lawrence, and Odogwu have promise at centre, and O'Connor is well worth a try at 12.Mix and match at will as long as O'Connor stays at 12.  Lot's o' talent.

Even without Ford, Smith and Simmonds/Omaga cover fly-half.  NO f**kin' Ford.  We will learn nothing if he plays.  Smith and Simmonds alternate starts with Umaga (who has not convinced me yet) as cover.

There are several good scrum-halves (Spencer / Mitchell).yes, all high level Mediocrity, no real game changers, As Reinach was for Saints.  

In the pack the props are covered (Genge, Obano, Hill, Heyes, etc.).Is Obano OK after his card? Not sure we learn much about Genge either, but Ok keeping him in shape if he gets a call up.  

Lock might be a bit thin with Lawes/Itoje/Hill with the Lions and Launchbury injured leaving Ewels, Martin, Ribbans, etc.  Ribbans and Martin will be studs,  

Even without Simmonds and Vunipola (and injuries to Willis and Evans) there are plenty of backrow candidates in Dombrant, Mercer, Hill, Ludham, Reid, Earle, etc.  Perhaps too old now but I have always liked Ewers.Dombrant, Mercer-gonne), Hill, Ludham, Reid, Earle, etc.  In particulat I think Dombrandt matched with Ludlam and Earle has a lot of turnovers and ruck dominance it it.  Perfect

Just finished watching after a Sunday lunch making break. Jones was watching and surely he will have his mind made up as to what he needs to do. S ith confirms himself as the Premier fly half, certainly among the chasing pack, and probably among all English options.

Smith is the best England 10 now...he needs to start in the summer simple as that.

From the RFU website: 'Eddie Jones’ side will play two Test matches against USA and Canada at Twickenham Stadium. They will first host USA on Sunday, 4 July, then Canada the following week on Saturday 10 July.

Before the two Tests, an England A side will face Scotland A at Mattioli Woods Welford Road, Leicester on Sunday, 27 June. Kick off times for all matches will be confirmed in the coming weeks.
For the first time since England beat France in the Autumn Nations Cup Final in December 2020, supporters will be able to attend England matches.
In line with government guidance, both stadiums will be operating at a reduced capacity. It is expected that at least 10,000 supporters will be able to attend each match at Twickenham Stadium, and 6,000 at Welford Road, with the potential to increase these numbers if government guidelines allow in the coming weeks.
Tickets will be available to the rugby community for England v USA and England v Canada from Thursday 13 May. Ticket details for England A v Scotland A will be confirmed shortly.
With the British and Irish Lions tour taking place this summer and 11 English players part of the tour, head coach Jones will have the opportunity to select a different squad.
He said: “The summer series will give us the chance to look at a lot of players and see how they step up, and it’s an important part of our World Cup preparation.
“For younger players, it’s a chance to show what they can do at international level and how they are in the team environment.
“There aren’t too many opportunities to lead at international level, so for the more experienced players it’s a chance to take further leadership roles and grow their game in that area.
“USA are one of the most ambitious of the emerging nations. They have an experienced coach in Gary Gold and have a team full of American verve and physicality, with the aim of moving themselves up the world rankings.
“Canada are a traditional rival for England. They’re a tough, physical side and Kingsley Jones is an astute coach so we’re expecting two good, competitive Test matches for our supporters.
“We’re really looking forward to having supporters back in the stadiums, it makes such a difference and we expect it’ll be three exciting matches for everyone watching.”

SUMMER SERIES FIXTURES
Sunday 27 June - England A v Scotland A, Mattioli Woods Welford Road (KO TBC)

Sunday 4 July - England v USA, Twickenham Stadium (KO TBC)

Saturday 10 July - England v Canada, Twickenham Stadium (KO TBC)'


So first up a non capped match but as with previous tours around the Lions sounds as if there is a serious chance for a handful of standouts to be in serious consideration come the autumn. In addition though there are going to be experienced faces. I hope that doesn't mean Youngs or May but more the guys on the edges like Genge et al.

No 7&1/2 wrote:


So first up a non capped match but as with previous tours around the Lions sounds as if there is a serious chance for a handful of standouts to be in serious consideration come the autumn. In addition though there are going to be experienced faces. I hope that doesn't mean Youngs or May but more the guys on the edges like Genge et al.

Agree...the old guys dont need to be involved in this. Genge and Stuart as props...and Obano and Heyes getting the bench opportunity for example in the front row.

If Youngs has ruled himself out of the Lions for family reasons I assume he won't want to go into an England bubble either. I doubt any bubble will be to the same extent as the 6N but at the same time there will have to be something.

If they are playing at Welford Road I'd assume that they'll move into Loughborough University as the students will have vacated by mid June or they'll find them some accomodation on site. It's not a small campus and it has good facilities so I'd assume they'd be bubbled there but allowed to mix in their bubble.

Personally I don't like the sound of that announcement. Sounds like we'll have Ewels or Ford as captain for starters. I'm now expecting;

Genge, Dunn, Stuart
Ewels, Ribbans
Underhill, Vunipola, Earl
Robson, Ford
Slade, Lawrence
May, Malins, Marchant

All safe options with players we've seen lots of before but dressed up as the young exciting options (Lawrence, Malins). Hopefully the uncapped game will have a worthwhile squad selection but if it as I fear that team for the USA and Canada my interest will check out after the Scotland A game because I'm sure we'll cut apart USA and Canada with that team but we'll learn nothing and create no competition in the areas we need. I'd have been much happier if they'd mentioned giving the experienced players the summer off.

I'd be annoyed at that Sam as the primary positions for development are 10, 12/13 ie not Slade and 15 as I don't think Malins is good enough there.

Billy V should not be there, nor Ford, or May...

What will the difference be between the "A" game selection and the other two games?

GeordieFalcon wrote:What will the difference be between the "A" game selection and the other two games?

I'd imagine that Eddie will use the less experienced players he's been forced to pick for that one and then bring in the more experienced ones for the games after. At a guess he'll select a 34 man squad so he could name the entire "A" team XV for the game Vs Scotland A with a mix match bench and then have those guys available alongside the more experienced guys that make up the rest of the squad should then impress.

Not capped. Haven't checked on the dates but are there likely people missing from the Prem final?

The website says 26th June for the Prem final ..

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd be annoyed at that Sam as the primary positions for development are 10, 12/13 ie not Slade and 15 as I don't think Malins is good enough there.

I want to see as much youth as possible but have also veered away from selections that leave out all established players as some have. For instance if we have Smith and Lawrence starting in the midfield I'd actually prefer Slade or JJ as the third member rather than Odogwu.

Worth noting that the 2017 Argentina tour took a lot of experienced players on it but the young ones that performed were still able to use it as a launch pad to replace established starters. Underhill, Curry and Wilson were uncapped but in that squad alongside Robshaw, Haskell and Wood. By the RWC they were deservedly the established flankers. Hartley was captaining the tour but LCD was there with 4 caps and clearly impressed given how much Jones committed to LCD when many were questioning his international ability due to the lineout woes at the start.

A lot of the inexperienced players I want to see play most are ones who have been nipping around the squads and capped before. Earl, Marchant and Lawrence especially. Ted Hill to an extent as well, though his form hasn't been as strong I think he offers physicality others can't. The main uncapped players I really want to see are Smith and Odogwu.

Saxons games used to be fun as they could throw the next hot shots together but there is a good argument the Saxons was abandoned because we didn't actually learn much from doing so!

No 7&1/2 wrote:You not a fan of Singleton then doc? Thought he was older than 24. Would Jones want to play Barbeary as a hooker before he plays there for Wasps in a senior capacity? I have no idea how good he is in the front row and on throwing.

Fair enough. Singleton is a good player and did well whilst my Saints were collapsing on Saturday. I would be happy to see him get a shot.

By the way, I would expect (hope, really) there is very little difference between the England A side and the Test side for USA and Canada. And our youth gets their run.

KC, Slade is one experienced player I think should be considered because most of the likely players around him would be uncapped or just have one or two.

But Vunipola, Underhill, Stuart, Ford, May could all be rested.  Stuart would be the closest to warranting a game but checking on Hill and Heyes might be more beneficial.

I would still like to see Steward have a go at 15.

Smith was impressive yesterday but just replacing Ford with Smith after these summer matches probably wouldn't make much difference unless the set-up around him is changed as well.

The biggest danger I see is that Jones will select Ford to captain the side and Smith/Simmonds or whoever to warm the bench with the odd 5 min cameo.

I would have Ewels captain. I don’t rate him that highly but only blooding one lock when we have 3 on the Lions seems reasonable. Alternatively Underhill would be a good shout, great for him to take a leadership role in a young squad.

cb wrote:KC, Slade is one experienced player I think should be considered because most of the likely players around him would be uncapped or just have one or two.

But Vunipola, Underhill, Stuart, Ford, May could all be rested.  Stuart would be the closest to warranting a game but checking on Hill and Heyes might be more beneficial.

I would still like to see Steward have a go at 15.

For me Stuart is a player I think will really benefit from a couple of starts so I'd definitely start him if fit. Though Heyes has been improving so quickly that I really want him capped.

It might be a boring opinion but for me it's all about balance as is often the case with selection. If the established/experienced players that missed the Lions in Sinckler, Underhill, Billy, Ford, Slade and May are all selected and play in XVs together then I'll be very frustrated. If some that 6 are picked and mixed in around younger players then I'd be pretty happy.

1.Obano 2.Singleton 3.Stuart 4.Ribbans 5.Ewels 6.Earl 7.Underhill 8.Dombrandt
9.Randall 10.Ford 11.Hassell-Collins 12.Lawrence 13.Marchant 14.Nowell 15.Steward

1.Genge 2.Singleton 3.Heyes 4.Martin 5.Ewels 6.T Hill 7.Ludlam 8.Vunipola
9.Robson 10.Smith 11.Radwan 12.Slade 13.Odogwu 14.Nowell 15.Malins

Two starting XVs such as that for instance then I'd be perfectly happy with the balance. In the first XV you've got Ford alongside two inexperienced centres in Lawrence and Marchant. The next week Slade can be a guiding hand to Smith and Odogwu plus Malins at fullback is an additional playmaker with experience at 10 as an extra option for Smith. Similar in the back row with Underhill and Billy alongside inexperienced but very talented players. If Simmonds and Dombrandt were both available I'd probably want Billy left out more.

May I'd personally rest as I think he's looked pretty jaded this season rather than me being desperate to see any particular wingers. Though I think Radwan and Hassell-Collins look very dangerous players.

Without wanting to be negative I think injuries will likely mean Sinckler ends up with the Lions at some point. On each of the last three tours there have been 2 props not in the original squad join them tour. Even on the 2017 tour where Furlong and Sinckler were available for all the tests and Cole surplus they still had Francis in briefly for a midweek game due to cover for a niggle.

I would like to Slade at 12. I think his skill set fits that better...

I notice that England are removing the "Saxons" from the name as its Not PC ...

World is going mad...

Hmm. Seems fair enough, saxon comes from a population described as white (technically - member of a people that inhabited parts of central and northern Germany from Roman times, many of whom conquered and settled in much of southern England in the 5th–6th centuries). RFU says its ''inappropriate' and doesn't 'reflect diversity in society'. Calling it England A doesnt seem that much of a big deal considering the make up, and likely future make up of the team?

Or is this a Daily Mail march against the changing of history (established 2006)!

The world has gone PC mad....simple as that.

Is it that big a deal to change the name to reflect our culture?

GeordieFalcon wrote:The world has gone PC mad....simple as that.

It is really pathetic.

England itself derives from Englaland which is the land of the Angles. Saxon as a word is not offensive so the change is just more PC pandering.