England - Summer Tour

by Geordie Thu 25 Mar - 15:25

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

by doctor_grey Tue 1 Jun - 16:14

I would hope Ludlum gets an opportunity. He has played extremely well for Saints. It is absolutely amazing that there is so much talent in England right now. Shame we don’t have the same problem in the centres.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 1 Jun - 16:14

GeordieFalcon wrote:is there any benefit in playing Underhill? Or will he pick a core of the 1st team?

I think he may come in for experience. Hill or Martin at 6 and Dombrandt at 8 then you'd expect Ribbans to be in the row. Some good players but not much in the way of caps. Personally I'd like to see;

4. Ribbans
5. Martin
6. Hill
7. Underhill
8. Dombrandt

But I'm not sure who's call the lineout. Be fun to see that much mobile physicality on display plus having Martin in there making his boat load of tackles alongside Underhill should mean that Dombrandt and Hill can stay fresher for carrying duty.

by Geordie Tue 1 Jun - 16:19

That would be a fun back 5 indeed Sam...with Ludlum off the bench?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 1 Jun - 16:24

Like that line up Sam. Looks hard as nails but with Dombrandt there a true link to the backs and more lineout options in him and Hill.

Anyone know when the squad is announced for the A match and these? The Scotland squad announced earlier.

by king_carlos Tue 1 Jun - 16:36

Ribbans can call the lineout and is very good at it. I'd guess one of Ewels or Ribbans will start and lead the lineout.

As much as I rate Ted Hill I'd be really surprised if he's picked ahead of Earl who's looked really good almost every time he's played for England.

GF - I can't see Barbeary starting at hooker but he could be used off the bench against Canada with their weaker front row. Matt Tierney (a quality player) aside most their front row options are high Championship level. Barbeary wouldn't have any issue playing hooker against a side such as Ealing having gone through the U20s playing hooker and presumably training there week in, week out for Wasps against Cruse and Taylor. If Jones views his international future at hooker then there wouldn't be much point selecting him at number 8 to be fair, he's too big a talent to not get involved with an eye on the 2023 RWC.

I wouldn't say picking Barbeary at hooker against Canada would carry anymore risk than Harry Thacker or Tom Youngs faced when they first switched to hooker or Greg Bateman faced moving to prop against Premiership opposition. Or to take a Falcons example from this season I'd be much less worried about Barbeary (a hooker for most his rugby life) playing hooker against Canada's front row than Kyle Cooper making his first ever start at LH up against the same Matt Tierney when Falcons played Castres earlier this season.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 1 Jun - 17:38

I was thinking Earl or Ludlum on the bench with maybe Ewels in case issues arise in the row. An Earl and Underhill backrow would leave the backrow without a third high quality jumper though and Eddie does like that. It has been his go to since the world cup final where I think he wished he'd gone for Kruis in the row and then Lawes at 6 with one of the kamikaze kids missing out.

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 1 Jun - 19:07

Solved, Lawes 6, Earl 8.

Lawes needs the game time with a Lions tour starting.

I know that EJ will not go that way as he is nothing to do with the Lions and they are different squads, but a few getting grey hairs in an inexperienced side would not go amiss.

by doctor_grey Tue 1 Jun - 19:23

I think if we are worried about having a third jumper against USA or Canada, we might have some real issues. When we last saw the American and Canadian teams they were similar to mid-level Premiership teams. Scotland A might be a great game for Underhill but I would rather see other talent in the USA and Canada games.

I do think you are right about Eddie.

by Cumbrian Tue 1 Jun - 20:18

Having seen the recent Scotland squad announcement, Bevan Rodd for Nick Auterac, I reckon we're on the rough end of that particular stick... honestly... I really believe that... maybe Very Happy

by No 7&1/2 Wed 2 Jun - 8:14

Just reading up on Quirke's performance at the weekend as I saw he made Flatman's team of the week. Seemingly a game changing sub with from what I've read off twitter etc the Sale fans are gushing in their praise. Really liked the look of him when I saw him earlier in the season but thought he was a while off in a similar vein to Hodge and van Poortvliet but does he stand a chance this summer? Jones has decided to miss out on the middle generation if he sees a rough diamond just starting off. I've seen it unconfirmed he qualifies for Ireland.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 2 Jun - 8:39

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Solved, Lawes 6, Earl 8.

Lawes needs the game time with a Lions tour starting.

I know that EJ will not go that way as he is nothing to do with the Lions and they are different squads, but a few getting grey hairs in an inexperienced side would not go amiss.

Lawes isn't going to play on a summer tour that takes place during the Lions tour. Even the A game takes place on the same day as the Lions friendly Vs Japan.

7&1/2 Quirke does look good, very high tempo scrum half that is modeling himself on Faff. Like JVP it might be a year to early to bring him in to camp. I'd expect Randall and Mitchell to get looked at this summer. Quirke and JVP to tear things up with the under 20s.

by Geordie Wed 2 Jun - 9:21

doctor_grey wrote:I think if we are worried about having a third jumper against USA or Canada, we might have some real issues. When we last saw the American and Canadian teams they were similar to mid-level Premiership teams. Scotland A might be a great game for Underhill but I would rather see other talent in the USA and Canada games.

I do think you are right about Eddie.

Falcons Peterson has been one of the best in the prem in the lineout this season...however i agree...if we need to have a thrid jumper against them we're in trouble.

Although i would like to keep that format, as we may need to use that in the WC.

How about...four lineout jumpers?

1 Obano / West
2 (Capon / Dunn / Mcguigan / Barbaery / Blamire...etc )
3 Sinkler
4 Ribbans
5 Martin
6 Hill
7 Ludlum
8 Dombrandt

by doctor_grey Wed 2 Jun - 9:25

If Eddie Jones' contract runs only through the next RWC, then what is in it for him to spend a lot of effort on players who might be making their real impact afterwards? Why would he spend much effort with the next-gen players when his vision is only through 2023? I wonder how that might impact his player selection decisions for this summer.

by Geordie Wed 2 Jun - 9:43

formerly known as Sam wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Solved, Lawes 6, Earl 8.

Lawes needs the game time with a Lions tour starting.

I know that EJ will not go that way as he is nothing to do with the Lions and they are different squads, but a few getting grey hairs in an inexperienced side would not go amiss.

Lawes isn't going to play on a summer tour that takes place during the Lions tour. Even the A game takes place on the same day as the Lions friendly Vs Japan.

7&1/2 Quirke does look good, very high tempo scrum half that is modeling himself on Faff. Like JVP it might be a year to early to bring him in to camp. I'd expect Randall and Mitchell to get looked at this summer. Quirke and JVP to tear things up with the under 20s.

Yes but what we expect and what Eddie does is often a very different thang.... Wink

by formerly known as Sam Wed 2 Jun - 10:15

doctor_grey wrote:If Eddie Jones' contract runs only through the next RWC, then what is in it for him to spend a lot of effort on players who might be making their real impact afterwards? Why would he spend much effort with the next-gen players when his vision is only through 2023? I wonder how that might impact his player selection decisions for this summer.

Who says he doesn't want an extension from that contract. There may also be another break point in the future and the RFU may consider utilising if he isn't moving the squad options forward in a constructive way. It would be spectacularly bad management to allow a world cup title tilt and then to fall off a cliff again like we did in 2003. I'm sure the RFU are keen for better planning going forward, they'll want sustained winning.

by doctor_grey Wed 2 Jun - 14:12

formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:If Eddie Jones' contract runs only through the next RWC, then what is in it for him to spend a lot of effort on players who might be making their real impact afterwards? Why would he spend much effort with the next-gen players when his vision is only through 2023? I wonder how that might impact his player selection decisions for this summer.

Who says he doesn't want an extension from that contract. There may also be another break point in the future and the RFU may consider utilising if he isn't moving the squad options forward in a constructive way. It would be spectacularly bad management to allow a world cup title tilt and then to fall off a cliff again like we did in 2003. I'm sure the RFU are keen for better planning going forward, they'll want sustained winning.

Frankly, I didn’t think of that. I had thought the relationship between Eddie and the RFU was strained at this point. If he does want to stay, I would guess that would be until RWC 2027? The weather in England is much better than Australia....

by formerly known as Sam Wed 2 Jun - 15:27

doctor_grey wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:If Eddie Jones' contract runs only through the next RWC, then what is in it for him to spend a lot of effort on players who might be making their real impact afterwards? Why would he spend much effort with the next-gen players when his vision is only through 2023? I wonder how that might impact his player selection decisions for this summer.

Who says he doesn't want an extension from that contract. There may also be another break point in the future and the RFU may consider utilising if he isn't moving the squad options forward in a constructive way. It would be spectacularly bad management to allow a world cup title tilt and then to fall off a cliff again like we did in 2003. I'm sure the RFU are keen for better planning going forward, they'll want sustained winning.
Frankly, I didn’t think of that. I had thought the relationship between Eddie and the RFU was strained at this point. If he does want to stay, I would guess that would be until RWC 2027? The weather in England is much better than Australia....

Strained how? The media were baying for blood after the 6N but the RFU went through a frankly perfunctory review process and then said as you were. Eddie has taken a pay cut to help during Covid and is allowed to select his coaching staff as he pleases, the RFU aren't fussed by his other consultancy jobs either. The RFU have a top quality coach who, the occasional 6N mess aside, has seen England winning a lot of games. Let's remember we won the 6N and the ANC before the awful 2021 6N campaign and that was on the back of beating the All Blacks and coming second at the world cup.

Honestly I think Eddie will want to maintain this job and the associated salary for as long as he can. He's 61 now so RWC 2027 would be him at 67ish. Perfect retirement age.

by doctor_grey Wed 2 Jun - 15:49

Apparently Paolo Odogwu tore his ACL in the Saints match this weekend. This is always a shame, and especially for a young lad with a seemingly bright future ahead of him.

by lostinwales Wed 2 Jun - 16:03

doctor_grey wrote:Apparently Paolo Odogwu tore his ACL in the Saints match this weekend. This is always a shame, and especially for a young lad with a seemingly bright future ahead of him.

Terrible luck

by Geordie Wed 2 Jun - 16:19

Nightmare bad luck that. Wasps dont have luck with those bloody ACLs do they!

by BamBam Wed 2 Jun - 16:47

Ah that's awful, poor lad

by king_carlos Wed 2 Jun - 17:26

So unfortunate for Odogwu.

Lawrence and Marchant would surely have featured anyway but maybe opens a door for Piers O'Conor who's had a very good season.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 2 Jun - 19:35

Squad is announced next Thursday at 12. No news as to if its on TV. The last few have been very last minute bbc deals.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Jun - 8:18

Skipped over that Odogwu news, real kick in the teeth for him as after kicking his heels in the 6Ns you'd imagine he was next in line. Trying to look on the bright side it surely offers Lawrence more of a run, could really see him excelling in a fresher approach from the back row to fly half. Jones is talking about energy being brought in by younger players so fingers crossed. Also name dropping Smith, unsurprisingly, noting his decision making is the big leap he's made and control of games. Again hoping its not torpedoed by any fly half injuries to the Lions squad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57335873

Jones has also said that Sinckler will be picked this summer.

by doctor_grey Thu 3 Jun - 8:24

Let's also hope Smith didn't lose any credit in the bank due to his poor kicking performance against Bath this past weekend. That is exactly the kind of thing which would cause concern with virtually coach.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Jun - 8:31

Doubt it would. I've seen every fly half have a day like that (both Ford and Farrell who are our normal kickers certainly). Overall he's been excellent this year, perhaps if he has a run of 3 or 4 games and looks broken it will come up as a concern.

by Geordie Thu 3 Jun - 9:15

Has he confirmed Sinkler 7.5?

So Smith will be starting 10.

I wonder if Slade will be picked...or if he'll try out new(ish) centres O'Connor, Lawrence, Marchant etc.

by propdavid_london Thu 3 Jun - 9:16

Would like to see a squad like below - mostly youngsters but with a sprinkle of experience in Sinkler/Ford/May

1 Genge/Obano
2 Dunn/Barbaery/Thacker
3 Sinkler/Will Stuart
4 Ribbans
5 Martin
6 Ted Hill
7 B.Curry/Ludlum
8 Dombrandt/Earl
9. Robson/Mitchell/Randall
10.Smith/Ford/Simmonds
11. May/Hassel-Collins
12.O.Lawrence
13. Marchant/O'Connor
14. Cockanasinga/O'Flaherty
15. Malins/

Need another 15 and 12 and extra 4,5 and 6 for the squad - but am struggling to think of standouts.
Would love for Jack Nowell to get some gametime if fit

by lostinwales Thu 3 Jun - 9:17

GeordieFalcon wrote:Has he confirmed Sinkler 7.5?

So Smith will be starting 10.

I wonder if Slade will be picked...or if he'll try out new(ish) centres O'Connor, Lawrence, Marchant etc.

Slade does offer a back up kicking option

by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Jun - 9:39

GeordieFalcon wrote:Has he confirmed Sinkler 7.5?

So Smith will be starting 10.

I wonder if Slade will be picked...or if he'll try out new(ish) centres O'Connor, Lawrence, Marchant etc.

Yes, in a Guardian article. Sounds like Sinckler has requested he be considered as he wants to be match fit if the Lions come calling.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Jun - 9:41

propdavid_london wrote:Would like to see a squad like below - mostly youngsters but with a sprinkle of experience in Sinkler/Ford/May

1 Genge/Obano
2 Dunn/Barbaery/Thacker
3 Sinkler/Will Stuart
4 Ribbans
5 Martin
6 Ted Hill
7 B.Curry/Ludlum
8 Dombrandt/Earl
9. Robson/Mitchell/Randall
10.Smith/Ford/Simmonds
11. May/Hassel-Collins
12.O.Lawrence
13. Marchant/O'Connor
14. Cockanasinga/O'Flaherty
15. Malins/

Need another 15 and 12 and extra 4,5 and 6 for the squad - but am struggling to think of standouts.
Would love for Jack Nowell to get some gametime if fit

Not getting the O'Flaherty love. Expect that squad next week though to be a capping exercise and then it to be tightened for the USA and Canada games.

by propdavid_london Thu 3 Jun - 10:13

I thought O'Flaherty has been one of the standout wingers!
Granted he is playing in a pretty dominant team though...
I have included Cockanasinga as just want to see him get some game time for England and Hassel-Collins seems to always look class when playing for Irish - are there many other English qualified wings that should be included?

Olly Thorley
Arron Reed at Sale has looked useful
Maybe R.McConnachie (the Bath 7s chap)

by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Jun - 10:16

Just seem him in the same sort of level as Bassett, just not quite an international. Guys I'd want to see are Radwan and Loader before him. I'd say Loader may well fall a little short but at the moment has much more potential than O'F.

by lostinwales Thu 3 Jun - 10:19

Thorley seems to have dropped right out of the reckoning, and does not seem to be the fixture at Gloucs that he was with Rees Zammit being 1st choice (plus May when he's fit)

by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Jun - 10:25

He's been out injured lost. When he was fit he was first choice, though Rees-Zammitt is clearly quality and is improving.

by propdavid_london Thu 3 Jun - 10:27

I had forgotten about Radwan - good shout.
See I feel the same about Loader as you do about O'Flaherty. There were rumours of him coming to Quins when Ibitoye left and the games I saw him play shortly after were not great (possibly just a blip in form).
Talking about Quins wingers - Nathan Earl is looking to be getting back to form. And if Eddie is looking for hungry youth then Caden Murley ticks a lot of boxes.

Luke Northmore has also really shone in a very attacking based Quins side - might be worth a look.

by Geordie Thu 3 Jun - 10:54

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Has he confirmed Sinkler 7.5?

So Smith will be starting 10.

I wonder if Slade will be picked...or if he'll try out new(ish) centres O'Connor, Lawrence, Marchant etc.

Yes, in a Guardian article. Sounds like Sinckler has requested he be considered as he wants to be match fit if the Lions come calling.

I wondered if that might be the case...

by Geordie Thu 3 Jun - 10:57

propdavid_london wrote:I had forgotten about Radwan - good shout.
See I feel the same about Loader as you do about O'Flaherty. There were rumours of him coming to Quins when Ibitoye left and the games I saw him play shortly after were not great (possibly just a blip in form).
Talking about Quins wingers - Nathan Earl is looking to be getting back to form. And if Eddie is looking for hungry youth then Caden Murley ticks a lot of boxes.

Luke Northmore has also really shone in a very attacking based Quins side - might be worth a look.

He's been linked with a move to us next season ....

by Geordie Thu 3 Jun - 11:02

propdavid_london wrote:I had forgotten about Radwan - good shout.
See I feel the same about Loader as you do about O'Flaherty. There were rumours of him coming to Quins when Ibitoye left and the games I saw him play shortly after were not great (possibly just a blip in form).
Talking about Quins wingers - Nathan Earl is looking to be getting back to form. And if Eddie is looking for hungry youth then Caden Murley ticks a lot of boxes.

Luke Northmore has also really shone in a very attacking based Quins side - might be worth a look.

Could he be the first player of Egyptian Origin to play for England?

by propdavid_london Thu 3 Jun - 11:46

GeordieFalcon wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:I had forgotten about Radwan - good shout.
See I feel the same about Loader as you do about O'Flaherty. There were rumours of him coming to Quins when Ibitoye left and the games I saw him play shortly after were not great (possibly just a blip in form).
Talking about Quins wingers - Nathan Earl is looking to be getting back to form. And if Eddie is looking for hungry youth then Caden Murley ticks a lot of boxes.

Luke Northmore has also really shone in a very attacking based Quins side - might be worth a look.

Could he be the first player of Egyptian Origin to play for England?

I have no idea what his heritage is - good player though and could be in with a shout.
Whilst on the subject of falcons or ex-falcons - do we think Zach Kibirige deserves a shot?

Oghre at no.2 for Wasps looks useful.

I feel sorry for guys Will Evans and Jack Willis who were on fire and will miss out due to injury. This would have been the perfect tour for them.

by Geordie Thu 3 Jun - 12:00

i think Kibiriges ship has sailed.

Too many good young wingers ready now...Hassle Collins looks the prime one leading the bunch. Thorley could come back into form (not for these summer games) ...still an awesome young player.

Then you have Slightholme who i rate very highly indeed...he should be in the summer squad.
Then Loader, Radwan, even our other young winger Ben Stevenson is a cracking young talent, though i see him as a 13, and think he'll move there soon.

Odogwu has sadly got injured, but Cocaksaniga should not be thrown away...he has so much potential....
Another i rate very highly was Ibitoye who is out of contract and probably coming home from France.

Players like Harry Potter at Leicester etc always impress me when i see him aswell...

So much talent around at the moment

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 3 Jun - 14:11

Slightholme has a ridiculous strike rate when fit even in a stuttering Saints side.

by Geordie Thu 3 Jun - 14:35

WPI

I just think he look a fantastic young player...and he is aggressive aswell. I like that in a player.

by doctor_grey Thu 3 Jun - 14:51

No doubts for me. I think Ollie Sleightholme is playing great. Every weekend he is making big plays. Even the 90 yard try which was called back this past Saturday was really terrific.

And, by the way, can we now go back to using the Imperial system of measures across the board? So let it be written, so let it be done.

by Geordie Thu 3 Jun - 15:11

Not to mention that big defensive play at the weekend...trail back ,tackle then with the help of big courtney get the turnover...

by doctor_grey Thu 3 Jun - 15:38

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not to mention that big defensive play at the weekend...trail back ,tackle then with the help of big courtney get the turnover...

exactly. He is a terrific defensive player as well. Freely admitting my Saints POV here, but I think he is playing as well as any winger in the league.

And I know I have said this before, it is so cool that he is a second generation Saint. And his old man was pretty handy as well.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 3 Jun - 15:40

Must admit I keep forgetting him completely by accident. Class player.

by nlpnlp Fri 4 Jun - 23:50

"Eddie Jones wants 'fresh, energetic players' for 2023 World Cup" - so I think we can expect to see a lot of new wunderkind with a few premiership games behind them, rather than the tried and tested like O'Flaherty, Ludlum, etc.

Really looking forward to the squad announcement next week to see if Eddie is really being serious about bringing in some fresh blood to the senior squad. Somehow I suspect though we will see the same old sad faces - Billy Bunter, Charlie Whoewels, George Robsonsurely there must be someone better and Elliot Daly.

Eddie said that players stop listening to their coaches after 4 years, unfortunately it seems like England players are so stupid they keep listening to him.

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 5 Jun - 0:06

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Not to mention that big defensive play at the weekend...trail back ,tackle then with the help of big courtney get the turnover...
exactly. He is a terrific defensive player as well. Freely admitting my Saints POV here, but I think he is playing as well as any winger in the league.

And I know I have said this before, it is so cool that he is a second generation Saint. And his old man was pretty handy as well.

What kind of winger is Doc? I've not seen as much rugby as I would like to this year, the wife has me on rations.

by nlpnlp Sat 5 Jun - 0:15

If you are talking about that team for this summers tour then Launchbury is a non starter - "Joe Launchbury sustained a complete rupture of his anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) during Sunday’s game against Bath,".

Ewels is the mystery man for me. I just don't know what he does that would make him an England player never mind an England starter.

I assume with Curry you mean Ben not Tom. Just to be clear whilst they are twins Ben is not as good as Tom. With his shoulder injury Ben has only played a couple of games this year. Are you picking him on performance or the fact he is Tom Curry's twin and therefore must be good?

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