England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

Ben Curry was outstanding for Sale after the 2019/20 season restarted, continued that form when the 2021/22 season started prior to his injury and has picked up in the same place since returning from injury. Against Bristol last weekend he was phenomenal.

Back in 2017 Ben and Tom were on a similar pegging and both made the England tour to Argentina. Then Ben got a bad injury, Tom made his England debut and by the time Ben returned he weighed a lot less than Tom, was less physical and took time to recover. In about 18 months they went from similar physiques and abilities to Tom being an England starter that increasingly resembled David Pocock's build whilst Ben was playing England U20s again and looked a similar build to many prominent age grade flankers.

It's taken Ben longer to develop physically due to that mistimed injury but now he's bulked up and had time in senior rugby he looks an absolutely terrific openside.

I could see a lot of opensides touring with Earl, Ludlam, Curry and Reid all very good players.

I echo what k_c says above.

Ben Curry is a fantastic player in his own right, regardless of Tom's achievements. I went to watch the England-Baa-Baas match in 2019 when Ben was selected at 7 alongside Dombrandt at 6 with Harrison at 8. He genuinely was EVERYWHERE - the amount of tackles he made along with his support play was nothing short of miraculous.

He has certainly been unlucky with injuries but based on his comeback games with Sale recently he looks good to tour. When you think of how his injury affected him, if this hadn't happened and Ben had toured in Argentina we could have seen the Kamikaze Twins genuinely being twins with Tom at 6 and Ben at 7.

Guess we'll find out on Thursday if he'll get picked. I hope so - he deserves it.

Well after today...

George Mcguigan, Adam Radwan and Ted Hill must be in consideration

Didn't know much about Miles Reid, so this was a good read https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-9653493/Bath-flanker-Miles-Reid-close-England-call-wants-voice-change.html

Comes across as a very likeable guy, hope he does well

Yeah I've heard his name mentioned a few times...seems to be another young flanker coming through

For the summer I'd love to see...

6 Ted Hill
7 Earl / B.Curry
8 Dombrandt

George Martin had an outstanding game at 6 for Tigers. Man marked Nathan Hughes out the game with a couple of massive tackles that cut the big man in half as he came on his preferred big carry from the lineout. He had plenty of run up and only went backwards. Nice half break in the midfield as well as some solid lineout work for Martin as well. Nice selection headache for Eddie.

Seen more as a long term lock sam? Probably where I see him for England.

Yeah I want to see George Martin at lock in the summer.

4 Martin
5 Ribbans
6 Hill

23 Isiekwe

Now that's some physicality, mobility and size!!

So Sinkler won't be with England...so Hayes, Stuart and whom?

Williams?
Hill?
Painter?
Street?
A.n.Other?

Hayes isn't at the the level of Williams/Stuart, but it will do him no harm being around the squad.

I'd say Heyes is of a similar level to Williams currently. Stuart is a little further ahead though has had some pretty iffy scrum showings including against Tigers where he conceded four penalties and a free kick at the scrum Vs Genge.

Ribbans is unlikely to feature after a red card for Saints. Best case scenario is 6 weeks down to three but with only one game left for Saints it would mean unavailability until at best the last friendly.

Oh seen those radwan tries now. Nice. Him and hassel-collins could put some serious pressure on this summer to the first teamers.

One thing that separates the very best is how quickly they improve. Look at may since his debut and he's continually improved as has guys like Curry. If those 2 build and want to improve they could be special players for us.

I'm not seeing it with Heyes yet although he has potential. A few years of AP games from the bench and he'll there or there abouts, Williams is a step up for me.

Radwan is really kicking on...and he has raw pace which counts for a lot. Defence needs a bit of tightening up mind.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not seeing it with Heyes yet although he has potential. A few years of AP games from the bench and he'll there or there abouts, Williams is a step up for me.

Radwan is really kicking on...and he has raw pace which counts for a lot. Defence needs a bit of tightening up mind.

Williams is a solid player but has never kicked on like I expected him to given his serious size he just doesn't make enough impact. Heyes has a good workrate and is solid in the scrum. Not up to Cole's level but he doesn't get pushed around as proved yesterday where he merrily went through both Bristol looseheads. At 22 he's got 71 first team appearances to his name and he's plays at least 30 minutes every week (normally replaces Cole just after half time unless they rotate). I don't see a massive difference between the two, the difference is some size and some experience but Heyes is more consistent in terms of form. Williams is above average but never going to be good enough for England. There's no point selecting him anymore, I caveat that with unless there's an injury crisis.

Stuart and Heyes as starter and sub makes the most sense. Well actually I'd be tempted to go Heyes and Hill but Eddie won't be that risky and Stuart is still young and could probably do with more experience.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'd say Heyes is of a similar level to Williams currently. Stuart is a little further ahead though has had some pretty iffy scrum showings including against Tigers where he conceded four penalties and a free kick at the scrum Vs Genge.

Ribbans is unlikely to feature after a red card for Saints. Best case scenario is 6 weeks down to three but with only one game left for Saints it would mean unavailability until at best the last friendly.

I would guess the three week ban is most likely. But whether that invalidates him for the last test we have to see. Shame for him.

By the way, my understanding is the USA and Canada matches are full on test matches and only the Scotland A match is a friendly.

He had a great chance to out his hand up but yet another brain dead red. Idiot.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He had a great chance to out his hand up but yet another brain dead red. Idiot.

When was his last red, I'm struggling to remember? Thought he had decent previous.

Meant another as in another general example of people going too high. Just lower your tackle height!

Im sure they'll find a way of including him.

There's no limit on players so if its short enough they may be able to cap him. Stupid question potentially but do friendlies count for you ban? if not would he be available for the England A squad?

Jones seems to be talking down Smith, not unsurpirngly (did similar for Itoje).

“When the sun is shining the ball has got quicker and defences have struggled to get set. Some of these games don’t have the rigour and intensity that you need to see players perform under. You do see great games, though. The Sale-Bristol game, for instance, was a terrific game of rugby.”
“Marcus Smith has benefited from that quicker ball,” Jones said. “From seeing him at Brighton College back in 2015 I’ve watched him a lot. He’s got a nice balance to his game.”

Quirke, Rodd and the other Curry name dropped in the article below.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jun/05/eddie-jones-planning-to-use-summer-fixtures-to-look-to-englands-future

The full quote about Smith was to the effect that he’d been through a period of playing to a pattern (presumably when Gustard was still in charge) but was now hitting a good balance of playing what’s in front of him and playing the percentages. It was part of an overall tone of wanting to crank up the attack this summer ahead of the 2023 RWC.

Of course, with Eddie it could all be a smokescreen, but he may well be ready to ring the changes.

I've seen those other comments and I agree his control of games and the balance in a team where they obviously do want to play a little looser has come on leaps and bounds in the last year or so. I just felt this was another line in the sand to say defences will be tougher and Smith ain't quite there. For me I think once his foot is in the door he'll be hard to shift especially if that is alongside someone like Randall.

Sinckler and Underhill were the two names tipped by the press as potential skippers for the tour. With Sinckler added to the Lions squad that presumably gives Underhill a very good shot at the captaincy.

The Mail name checked Ford and May as two players who will be rested. Ford may well be injured anyway judging by Tigers selection the last two weeks. Borthwick gives nothing away about injury status of players so it's impossible to know but I'd be very surprised if Ford was rested for the home game against Bristol with Champions Cup qualification up for grabs. Ford has been managing an achilles injury for a while I believe.

Lions - Mako, George, LCD, Sinckler, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Simmonds, Farrell, Daly, Watson

Injured - Launchbury, Willis, Odogwu, Nowell, (possibly Ford)

Potentially unavailable for personal reasons - Youngs (ruled himself out the Lions tour), Marler (ruled himself out the Six Nations)

Bans potenitally impeding selection - Dunn (I think he'll be picked anyway), Ribbans (pending citing)

With the way things are coming together I'd guess that it will have to be a very new look squad as most here want, regardless of whether that would have been EJs plan. I think there will be a small handful of senior players such as Underhill, Billy and Slade with a whole host of newer faces.

The 2017 Argentina tour had 7 players with over 40 caps (Hartley, Launchbury, Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Care, Brown) as well 2 more starters in Ford (35 caps) and May (25 caps) in the touring party. Even then it had 18 uncapped players in it! This squad will have less experience than that one by necessity if not by design.

3 match ban for Ribbans so available for 1 of England's matches.

On captaincy I'm thinking it will be Ewels.

Or is it 3 weeks?

The reports says 3 weeks not 3 match..

Yes I'm in the football mindset with 3 matches, but in application it will be 3 matches. Currently down as Bath, Bedford pre-season (3/9) and Ospreys Pre-season (10/9).

So if its weeks he will be available for all games...

Its down as weeks but they've said that he will miss the matches detailed above. Given that if selected he wouldn't be available for Scotland A and USA.

Well then i would suspect we see Ewell in all the games...and possibly George Martin moving to lock

What time is the squad announced? 11am?

12.

Am I right in thinking this squad isn't going to include anyone from Saracens or the 4 playoff teams, but players from the losing semi finalists will be added to it after they are knocked out?

Not a clue, don't know whether it will be in effect 2 different squads with people dropping out.

The squad announcement is at noon today? So busy, I can't keep up.

From the RFU site:

FORWARDS

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)

Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)

Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)

Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 8 caps)

Lewis Ludlow (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)

George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)

Chunya Munga (London Irish, uncapped)

Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)

Miles Reid (Bath Rugby, uncapped)

Sean Robinson (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)

Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)

Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)

Tom Willis (Wasps, uncapped)

BACKS

Josh Bassett (Wasps, uncapped)

Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)

Tom de Glanville (Bath Rugby, uncapped)

Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)

Dan Kelly (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)

Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps)

Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)

Max Ojomoh (Bath Rugby, uncapped)

Tom Parton (London Irish, uncapped)

Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Dan Robson (Wasps, 12 caps)

Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)

Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)

Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)

Was wondering if he'd have a look at Ojomoh. Nice to see Kelly there.

Can't see that there's a shocker there, no Loader is a bit surprising for me. And just realised Slieghtholme isnt there either.

RFU:
'An updated squad will reconvene on Sunday 20 June, ahead of the England A fixture against Scotland A at Mattioli Woods Welford Road, Leicester (Sunday 27 June, 2pm KO). Premiership finalists will not be available for selection for this squad.

Following the final, Jones will further update his squad for England’s two Test matches at Twickenham Stadium in July - USA on Sunday 4 July (2pm KO), and Canada on Saturday 10 July (3pm KO). All three fixtures will be shown live on Channel 4.

"This is the first squad of three and we’ll include players from the other clubs where appropriate, when they become available," said Jones. "We’ve also given some of our senior players the chance to get some important rest and recovery time after back-to-back seasons, and with no proper pre-season."

"For this group it’s a chance to come into the England environment and really show what they can do. We expect them to be enthusiastic, full of energy and we want them to know there is no limit to their horizon.

"There is a lot of talent in this squad but the challenge for them is to turn talent into performance. We’re really looking forward to working with this group of young players and see where we can take them. They have the opportunity to take on the world."

Like it personally, great to see that it is actually on tv!

5 Falcons! Wow...Trevor Davison! Bigger Wow....

No Barbeary is the main surprise for me. Never heard of Davison either, thought Rodd would get a look in at prop

Props - Genge, Obano, Davison, Hill, Heyes
Hooker - Blamire, Singleton
Locks - Ewels, Martin, Robinson, Wells, Munga
Back row - Chick, Hill, Ludlam, Ludlow, Reid, Underhill, T Willis

SH - Robson, Spencer, Mitchell
FH - Umaga, De Glanville
Centre - Dingwall, Lawrence, Ojomoh, Kelly
Back 3 - Bassett, Cokanasiga, Hassel-Collins, Parton, Radwan, Steward

Think that's all right

Umaga as the only flyhalf is a shame, really don't rate him. It's really always 50/50 as to whether he scores a try or Costa his team a try. With Smith and Simmonds both in the playoffs I expect to see them appear later on. The lack of an additional 10 places a lot of pressure on Umaga as well and we've seen Wasps tend to put another 10 either at 15 or 12 to help him. That could mean TDG gets the nod over Steward which would also be a shame as the first game is at WR and Steward has only had the chance to run out in front of a crowd there the once.

Trevor Davison? That's a way out of left field selection but otherwise the prop options look good with Genge/Obano and Heyes/Hill offering set piece and mobility. Blamire and Singleton similarly from hooker. Good front row options.

I'm hoping Robson is there as an older head in camp and that we see Mitchell get a proper go.

Bevan Rodd is Scottish isn't he?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Umaga as the only flyhalf is a shame, really don't rate him. It's really always 50/50 as to whether he scores a try or Costa his team a try. With Smith and Simmonds both in the playoffs I expect to see them appear later on. The lack of an additional 10 places a lot of pressure on Umaga as well and we've seen Wasps tend to put another 10 either at 15 or 12 to help him. That could mean TDG gets the nod over Steward which would also be a shame as the first game is at WR and Steward has only had the chance to run out in front of a crowd there the once.

Trevor Davison? That's a way out of left field selection but otherwise the prop options look good with Genge/Obano and Heyes/Hill offering set piece and mobility. Blamire and Singleton similarly from hooker. Good front row options.

I'm hoping Robson is there as an older head in camp and that we see Mitchell get a proper go.

There will be a rejigged squad ahead of the A game. Personally don't think Harlequins will make it to the final.

Rodd qualifies for England and isn't able to be selected yet as Sale are in the semis.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rodd qualifies for England and isn't able to be selected yet as Sale are in the semis.

Good point well made

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Trevor Davison? That's a way out of left field selection .

Your telling me! And no McGuigan yet Blamire is in there.

Great to see Sean Robinson rewarded...hes class, but Calum Chick for me is the one. Been on fire this season...hes been really physical.

In Tom Willis, Dombrandt and CHick we really should be in good hands at 8.

Im really liking what i see in Tom Willis ....even over Dombrandt now.

And no Slightholme....

I imagine we'll see plenty drop out and players brought in over the next 2 squads.

Davison is not International quality but he's had a great year. I'd have him at Heyes level (other side) but at late 20's isn't going to kick on too much.

So from that squad alone (ignoring the top 4 who will come in)

We would have something like:

1 Genge
2 Blamire / Singleton
3 Heyes
4 Ewells
5 Martin
6 Hill
7 Ludlum
8 Chick / Willis

9 Robson
10 Umaga
11 OCH
12 Lawrence
13 Kelly
14 Radwan
15 Steward

GeordieFalcon wrote:And no Slightholme....

that’s a surprise to me. I frankly thought he had a fantastic year, and was one of the best wings in the Premiership, attacking and defensively. I really don’t see the other wings offering what he does, including his toughness.

From. Saints POV, though, it’s nice to see Dingeall in the conversation, but I am not sure Dinger is at that international level. Hope he proves me wrong!

Apparently he failed an HIA Doc....

June 20th the losing semi final players will be added for the A game v Scotland