England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

Tigers fans not liking Umaga eh.. what a surprise

I'm a little surprised to see Davison selected over Tom West, the latter's name has been dropped quite a few times over the last few weeks. It suggests to me that he was going head-to-head with Rodd for a place in the squad and now Trev is there as a place holder until Rodd can come in. Could be completely wrong though.

Aside from that (given the constraints of the squad), there don't seem to be many outrageous omissions. Perhaps Loader and Sleighthome (as others have said). Maybe Thorley or Tommy Freeman could have made cases? Nick Isiekwe? Ehren Painter? Or Charlie Atkinson? No of them are bang-on-the - table with frustration omissions though.

BamBam wrote:Tigers fans not liking Umaga eh.. what a surprise

Wasn't fussed when he left us for a first team contract at Wasps instead of the development one we were offering not bothered now. If Wasps want to even things up of happily take Atkinson off your hands though, now there's a young man who I do think could have an exceptionally bright future.

Rodd is Scottish born and English raised (I think).

Sgt have you watched much of Heyes? I'd seriously have him as the third best English tighthead at present. Admittedly someway behind the first two but the young lad is more than capable around the park and in the scrum. I'm hoping he gets game time and really shows up well this summer.

Hmm I think I'd prefer this squad to go out for the A game and then add in for the games thereafter but can see why Jones might want to mix it up before then with the losing playoff players. Particularly because I expect Quins to be one of those and Smith and Marchant will probably be straight in.

Think its going to be an Exter Bristol final so I think we'll see Rodd, Surry, Quirke come in from Sale and Smith, Dombrandt and Marchant from Harlequins. Could Kenningham be an outside bet?

Potential team for me

Genge Singleton Hill
Ewels(C) Martin
Hill Underhill
Dombrandt
Mitchell Smith
Hassell-Collins Kelly Lawrence Randall
Steward

Obano, Blamire, Heyes, Ludlow, Willis, Quirke, Umaga, Parton

GeordieFalcon wrote:Apparently he failed an HIA Doc....

aah. Thanks. I didn’t know that. In that case hoping he has a smooth recovery and see him in September.
(somehow that last line reminds me of a song)

Cumbrian wrote:I'm a little surprised to see Davison selected over Tom West, the latter's name has been dropped quite a few times over the last few weeks.  It suggests to me that he was going head-to-head with Rodd for a place in the squad and now Trev is there as a place holder until Rodd can come in. Could be completely wrong though.

Aside from that (given the constraints of the squad), there don't seem to be many outrageous omissions.  Perhaps Loader and Sleighthome (as others have said).  Maybe Thorley or Tommy Freeman could have made cases? Nick Isiekwe? Ehren Painter? Or Charlie Atkinson?  No of them are bang-on-the - table with frustration omissions though.

Apparently serving a ban at the moment.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sgt have you watched much of Heyes? I'd seriously have him as the third best English tighthead at present. Admittedly someway behind the first two but the young lad is more than capable around the park and in the scrum. I'm hoping he gets game time and really shows up well this summer.

Yes Sam, plenty. He's nowhere near 3rd best English tighthead, literally nowhere near. But he's 22....and he's very impressive for that age. If he continues to improve, he'll be pushing Sincks in a few years no question.

Davison is arguably better (although a loosie) but I can't see him getting much better tbh.

I'm not a big fan of rushing through props into the Int set up.

West is injured as well apparently.

I'm really happy with that prelim squad.

Dingwall, Ojomoh, Kelly and Steward are very talented in problem positions in the backline.

It's good to see Spencer recalled at 9. Similar for Paul and Ted Hill in the pack.

Blamire ahead of McGuigan is perhaps a touch harsh after McGuigan's good season but even that call I like as I think Blamire has all the raw ingredients to be a very good hookers.

Most of all I'm delighted that Radwan has got the call.

A bit surprised that Barbeary and Sleightholme have missed out.

Is Barbeary fit? He's not played for Wasps in a while.

Barbaery is injured apparently as is Isiekwe who was apparently due to be selected and Slightholme is under a failed HIA.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sgt have you watched much of Heyes? I'd seriously have him as the third best English tighthead at present. Admittedly someway behind the first two but the young lad is more than capable around the park and in the scrum. I'm hoping he gets game time and really shows up well this summer.

Yes Sam, plenty. He's nowhere near 3rd best English tighthead, literally nowhere near. But he's 22....and he's very impressive for that age. If he continues to improve, he'll be pushing Sincks in a few years no question.

Davison is arguably better (although a loosie) but I can't see him getting much better tbh.

I'm not a big fan of rushing through props into the Int set up.

Heyes has no trouble taking apart Davison and then his replacement at scrum time in the European fixture this year. He was also rock solid Vs Connacht and Ulster as well as in the final Vs Montpellier. I just don't think outside of Stuart and Sinckler there aren't many outstanding candidates and of those candidates Heyes is in the mix.

Loosehead on the other hand is a far stronger selection for England.

I would dare say that Leicester as a scrummaging unit are quite a way ahead ahead of Falcons. We were a bit of a shambles but Davison has really come on and he's grew through the season.

Heyes needs to oust Cole as first choice really to be talked about for England. There's plenty of time for the boy.

On the tighthead side, I think for England Sinckler is some way out in front - he's solid in the scrum and excellent in open play.

Cole is still a class scrummager but showing his age in the loose. Stuart and Harry Williams have looked good around the park but neither have convinced me in the scrum. There is a real opportunity for the next generation of tightheads to step up.

Genge is more obviously the heir apparent on the loosehead side but he needs to get his scrummaging up to international standard. Until then, Mako and Marler (if he wants to play) still have a grip on the shirt.

I'd be interested to see if Randall gets a call up - if so, who drops out??

Mr Bounce wrote:I'd be interested to see if Randall gets a call up - if so, who drops out??

Judging by recent squads Mitchell is ahead of Spencer. I'd be very surprised if Randall doesn't get added to the squad so someone will miss out.

Poorfour wrote:On the tighthead side, I think for England Sinckler is some way out in front - he's solid in the scrum and excellent in open play.

Cole is still a class scrummager but showing his age in the loose. Stuart and Harry Williams have looked good around the park but neither have convinced me in the scrum. There is a real opportunity for the next generation of tightheads to step up.

Genge is more obviously the heir apparent on the loosehead side but he needs to get his scrummaging up to international standard. Until then, Mako and Marler (if he wants to play) still have a grip on the shirt.

Genge really needs to transfer his dominant club game into the International fold, where he's frankly looked poor. If he's not careful, he's going to moved down the pecking order.

The main omissions given that players from the top four sides are not yet selected are Sleightholme and West but may be there are medical and/or disciplinary reasons for this.

Sleightholme at least seemed the in form Premiership winger.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would dare say that Leicester as a scrummaging unit are quite a way ahead ahead of Falcons. We were a bit of a shambles but Davison has really come on and he's grew through the season.

Heyes needs to oust Cole as first choice really to be talked about for England. There's plenty of time for the boy.

I think Heyes has helped the Cole improvement in form this season. Cole having to only play 45 minutes a game has kept him far fresher than usual.

Also interesting quote;

[size=32]"He's rested," explained Jones on Ford's omission from the England squad. "He has got a nagging calf injury that he has carried all season and he's battled his way through. The best thing for him now is to have a good recovery period and get his body ready for the next period of time."[/size]

He will hopefully find that Smith has taken his chance by then.

Any news from Jones as to what injury Youngs has been carrying?

I don't for 1 minute think that Ford has been dropped, but it's certainly a chance to look at Smith.

Smith deserves his chance though. Best fly half in the prem this year so I'd live for him to start both main games this summer and at least 2 later in the year with the 'main ' team. I know Sam really likes Youngs but bloody gell he's been rubbish since before the world cup. Some freshness is desperately needed and there's 3 young guys in Mitchell, Randall and now Quirke who should be getting chances.

Very hard to read Jones but all the snippets to the press suggest he's looking to change things up in the backline. All positions seem to be pretty open to people impressing him. Hopefully that's not just words.

The summer tour in Lions season has traditionally been the point at which England unearths the players who will drive the team forward, and our best RWC runs have generally involved players who have broken through from those tours. This tour isn't quite that quality - Argentina away is a real challenge and with the best will in the world this summer's opposition aren't of the same standard - but I think Eddie has long had it earmarked as his opportunity to shake up the squad.

Scrum half, fb and 8 are certainly positions that need options.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He will hopefully find that Smith has taken his chance by then.

Any news from Jones as to what injury Youngs has been carrying?

Youngs has made himself unavailable this summer as his wife is pregnant with their third and he wants to be at home with the family. He informed Eddie, Gats and Borthwick shortly after he got the Lions email.

I think Youngs is unfairly maligned and was one of England's best players in the 6N, though that bar was pretty low. At 31 we need to find a successor though because he's going to be struggling to make the next world cup. Robson is certainly not the answer so I'm hoping to see what Mitchell and Randall can bring this summer.

Also some George Martin from last weekend on Nathan Hughes 

[size=32]https://twitter.com/LeicesterTigers/status/1402977599588950020?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1402977599588950020%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html1402977599588950020[/size]

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He will hopefully find that Smith has taken his chance by then.

Any news from Jones as to what injury Youngs has been carrying?

Youngs has made himself unavailable this summer as his wife is pregnant with their third and he wants to be at home with the family. He informed Eddie, Gats and Borthwick shortly after he got the Lions email.

I think Youngs is unfairly maligned and was one of England's best players in the 6N, though that bar was pretty low. At 31 we need to find a successor though because he's going to be struggling to make the next world cup. Robson is certainly not the answer so I'm hoping to see what Mitchell and Randall can bring this summer.

Also some George Martin from last weekend on Nathan Hughes 

[size=32]https://twitter.com/LeicesterTigers/status/1402977599588950020?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1402977599588950020%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html1402977599588950020[/size]

Certainly agree about the need to identify, blood, and give significant playing time to Young's eventual successors.  I find it peculiar there is so much real quality depth in the back row, for instance, but it is so thin at scrum half.  And inside centre, too.

I think there's a bit of gap in the scrum half ages but theres some real quality coming through now. Similarly I really like that Kelly and Ojamoh are both in this squad.

Scrum half has been mainly because Benny has remained fit and largely consistent (he did have a wobble the other year). There are some young guys that could really challenge him going forward.

Inside centre there does seem a dearth of talent in the Prem. A lot of clubs seem to use non-EQ players at 12 for whatever reason or players like Burrell and the Saints chappy that have shown they aren't quite up to international rugby. Devoto is unlucky mind, an injury to Farrell might have given him chance to actually stake a real claim.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Inside centre there does seem a dearth of talent in the Prem. A lot of clubs seem to use non-EQ players at 12 for whatever reason

Its not that long ago that England had Tuilagi, Wales had Parkes, Ireland used Aki and Scotland had Sam Johnson. Its not just England. Munster signed de Allende for example.

1 of those is not like the others...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Scrum half, fb and 8 are certainly positions that need options.

We have 3 now in my eyes...

Dombrandt, who is in pole position really...Callum Chick whos game has gone up another level this season and Tom Willis, who i think just looks better and better.

If we cant get one of those in and a back row to complement with all the talent we have...then we're in trouble,

MichaelT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Inside centre there does seem a dearth of talent in the Prem. A lot of clubs seem to use non-EQ players at 12 for whatever reason

Its not that long ago that England had Tuilagi, Wales had Parkes, Ireland used Aki and Scotland had Sam Johnson. Its not just England. Munster signed de Allende for example.

Manu did go to school and spend years living in Leicestershire before being called up. He's also not really a specialist 12.

Falcons - Burrell past his best but does a job for Falcons isn't international standard
Sale - Manu or Van Rensburg (SA capped)
Wasps - Gopperth or de Bourgeois both wrong age and past their best
Leicester - Scott (Scottish capped clue is in the name) or Kelly who's only 19 and who was playing for Loughborough University and not attached to any other club this time last year
Saints - Francis past his best but does a job for Saints isn't international standard
Worcester - Venter (SA capped) or Beck (Welsh capped)
Gloucester - Twelvetrees past his best but does a job for Glaws isn't international standard
Bath - Redpath (Scottish capped) the one that got away
LI - Hempetema journeyman Kiwi with a habit for high shots
Quins - Esterhuizen (SA capped
Bristol - Piatau (Tongan capped) or O'Conor dual qualified and hopefully brought in soon
Chiefs - Devoto has been around the squad but can't catch a break.

So Jones options are Manu or Devoto who tend to be in and around the squad when fit or O'Conor who's had a bit of a break out time and was a late bloomer or Kelly who's very talented but also very young and probably not ready for international rugby anyway.

The others are either not eligible or in Hempetema's case just not selectable. Unless of course he brings an oldie out of retirement which is exactly what we don't want.

Options at 9 are a bit easier in that several clubs have good starting 9s that are EQ Youngs, Robson, Maunder, Mitchell, Spencer, Uren but there are also others coming through and getting regular game time as well JVP, Quirke, Townsend (ok he's a bit older). There's 9 viable options at scrum half compared to three hand a half at 12. Well I suppose 8 at scrum half really because Robson is a liability at international level.

12 has been a problem position for England since Will Greenwood retired... In many ways Farrell is the best solution we've had there, even though he's not ideal. He's tough enough to hold the channel in defence and gives a second distribution option, but he's not a particularly destructive carrier. You can see why Eddie is interested in Manu at 12 - which could work if he can stay fit for long enough to adapt.

Eddie clearly toys with trying Odogwu in the 12 position. At Quins, Luke Northmore has been playing very well but is more of a 13 than a 12 - though at 6'2" and 100kg he has the build and I believe he mostly played 12 at Cardiff Met. In the longer term, Lennox Anyanwu is in the academy and highly rated - but is unlikely to be in contention before the next RWC cycle.

I know not many agree but I really rate Farrell at 12. The best rugby I've seen England play since 2003 by an absolute mile has been under Jones with Ford and Farrell at 10 and 12.

Some of the best attacking performances were with Joseph at 13 as well so it's not a simple case of take Manu out and it doesn't work. It's not like we have less carriers in the pack since that period either. George and LCD are much better carriers than Hartley. Sinckler especially but also Stuart are better carriers than Cole. The Lawes of 2021 is carrying far better than Lawes in 2016 - his improvement there under Jones has been outstanding. I'd even argue that Curry now offers more in the carry than Haskell was by that stage in his career - Haskell went the other way to Lawes with his carrying where he started his career as a brilliant carrier and ended it just doing more grunt work.

In 2017 we had the bones of a very good squad but needed a bit of new blood in Curry, Underhill and LCD especially. I view it similarly now. The bulk of the squad are there we just need 2 or 3 young guns to break through and pressure the established players.

I hope a punt is taken on Kpoku as Jones did in 2017 by basically plucking the Curry brothers out of the U20s. He's raw but offers something different to our established locks the same as the Curry's offered something different to our established flankers back in 2017.

I agree that Ford and Farrell have been the most efficient and effective set up we've had in a long time. Add in Youngs to that. In terms of eye catching rugby they maybe haven't been thrilling but they have been effective. 

I think the issue is that the combination just doesn't work with Slade at 13. There has to be a strike runner in that midfield to make up for Farrell's lack of carrying ability. Manu has done that, Joseph has done that and I think Marchant could come in and do that. Slade can't and I'm unconvinced by Lawrence. Finding a viable alternative to Manu is very important and as I've said already I'd start by looking at Marchant.

To be fair, Ford and Farrell have been the only combination England have had for a long time.  And with that pairing, England did get to a RWC final, and they deserve massive credit for that.  However, it appears to me they played with more life earlier in their tenure but now they seem stale.  I would presume the lack of young 12s coming up and pushing Farrell is the one major thing that keeps him unchallenged for Greenwood's old jersey.  

On the other hand, I would still like to see Ford with a proper second receiver or a hard runner outside him.  That, could still work, but need to see.  The flip side, though is Farrell, whom I think is not a 12 in any sense.  Not a great runner, a decent passer, a decent defender, but that is not a strong point anymore.   He seems to play by rote and not what is in front of him.  He certainly matured early and has great bloodlines, but I think he has hit his ceiling and has moved back from that.  The question is whether Jones changed his strategy because he feels it gives him an edge or whether he thinks that is all Ford, Farrell, and the backs can play at the moment.  

If England try the hard runner approach at 12, then I think JJ or potentially Marchant could do very well.  Might even allow Slade to show what all that potential is all about.

Quirkes in the u20s then. Just need Mitchell and Randall to have a tremendous summer.

I have less of an issue with the Ford/Farrell axis than I do with Youngs ponderous service from 9. If we can find a 9 who can pass straight/make a break and a running 13 rather than Slade, I think we'll be fine.

When you have zero running threat from 9-13 and a 9 that can't pass, we become very predictable.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I have less of an issue with the Ford/Farrell axis than I do with Youngs ponderous service from 9. If we can find a 9 who can pass straight/make a break and a running 13 rather than Slade, I think we'll be fine.

When you have zero running threat from 9-13 and a 9 that can't pass, we become very predictable.

Completely agree about the lack of a running threat.  It's like playing with one hand tied behind our backs.  If England can find a more up tempo 9 which Eddie Jones will actually let play (a big if), I still think Ford can play off that but the attack dies with Farrell.   We need to be able to attack all across the back line, not just wait and hope the wings make great plays.

I guess we have to wait to see what comes out of the summer tour. And then if any other backs get picked for the autumn matches and if any get real playing time. I would have preferred harder summer tests than we have scheduled.

Some excellent points here gents.
Randall for me is everything you want in a scrum half and the closest thing in terms of tempo to faf. Would love to see us bring some quickness back into our game and unpredictability back that scares the crap out of opponents. Randell plays on speed of thought.
George Martin has impressed me as have both curry's. Everyone has been banging on about the South African ball carriers at sale and Leicester but these boys have been playing like monster South African back rows and have been arguably been the pock of the two teams.

As for 12 who knows but farrell will be around for ages so that is written in stone for a while

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I have less of an issue with the Ford/Farrell axis than I do with Youngs ponderous service from 9. If we can find a 9 who can pass straight/make a break and a running 13 rather than Slade, I think we'll be fine.

When you have zero running threat from 9-13 and a 9 that can't pass, we become very predictable.

Youngs did run during the 6N though he seemed the only one. Easy to remember because Russell resorted to tripping him and got binned to stop what could have been England's only chance at a try. Ford has apparently played the whole season nursing a calf problem which is why his attacking play has been limited to club and country. Not sure what the excuse is for Farrell and Slade. I think some competition will freshen things up a bit, pushes on those who want to be there and clears the dead wood.

George Martin looking increasingly like the blindside Jones wants. Good lineout jumper and said last week he'd been working on making more dominant hits which was evident again today. George Martin 5 carries for 41 metres,18 tackles with 1 missed,3 defenders beaten Vs Wasps. His workload hopefully frees up space for Dombrandt at 8.

JVP showed him up today though. You stopped playing when Youngs came on. Definitely a waning star. Played well against France but not much outside that.

Wider note on blindside I'm not sure what Jones and potentially Proudfoot want there. If Willis hadn't been injured I think it'd be moot. He'd shown what he could do turnovers and try in a fabulous cameo. Jones had previously gone for underhill and curry when fit. Only when others had been injured had he turned to Lawes there in the style of a big bruising 6. Not sure what they want should they mix up the makeup from 8 onwards. Underhill, Willis, hill, Martin the latter 2 could easily cover lock particularly Martin. Quality and so many choices.

No 7&1/2 wrote:JVP showed him up today though. You stopped playing when Youngs came on. Definitely a waning star. Played well against France but not much outside that.

JVP does play at a higher tempo but also has a higher error rate. Wasn't Ben Youngs best game off the bench, seemed like he was trying to just close the game out but then Wasps would score and then he'd have to go on the attack, Tigers get a try and he'd immediately go back to trying to close the game out. I'd have liked to see him to try and be more dominant personally. Not sure whether he was instructed to play like that or decided that was the way to go but it wasn't his best.

JVP is generally considered to be the future Tigers 9 and it's a matter of if and not when he takes the shirt off Benny. England under 20s spoilt for choice at 9 with JVP and Quirke, two excellent young 9s. If the young 9s in the England squad don't perform this summer then they might find their chance gone of either of those two kick on next year.

Do you mean when not if? Yes the youngsters coming through look class. Have a feeling the 2 young 12s in this training squad could also very quickly pressure. Similar to those fly halfs coming through. And hodge and Steward. Yikes we have a conveyor at times!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you mean when not if? Yes the youngsters coming through look class. Have a feeling the 2 young 12s in this training squad could also very quickly pressure. Similar to those fly halfs coming through. And hodge and Steward. Yikes we have a conveyor at times!

Yes quite right on the correction.

Fullback conveyor belt is ridiculous. Malins, Parton, Steward, Freeman and Hodge all making it increasingly likely that Daly won't make the next world cup.

Kelly is a very good young 12 but not sure he's international quality yet. I suspect Eddie wants to ward off interest from Ireland, who called Kelly up to their under 20s at 18 and made him their starting 13 despite him only being at Loughborough University. It's a good development opportunity for him that could prove valuable long term.

Certainly is you compare Martin pre 6N and post 6N he's a very different animal. He learnt a lot and was obviously given areas to work on. Being selected again probably indicates Eddie likes what he sees and he's worked on the right things. Hoping more young England players go down that path from this summer.

Martin is going to be a very good player...really coming along nicely.

Youngs, the less said the better I find these days.

From what I have read on here, Lawes seems to be putting his hand up for the 6 shirt, two games on the trot coming back from being injured and he has been stand out in both games. He has been carrying better for teh last two years, now he has found out he is a good jackler and is using the skill to great effect. 5 turnovers last week in about 60 minutes, don't know how many this, but add that to his lineout skills, mobility around the park, tackling machine and ability ball in hand.......................

I'd be disappointed should we move back to lawes at 6 for England. Mever worked so far and if you need the heft Hill and Martin surely deserve a chance before him again? Only got 20 mins into the saints game so can't comment on lawes really on that game. Quiet ish bar a pen given away. I think it must change though as Mitchell has been good as well doc!

Interview with Jones on bt and he said there will be 3 squads this the 1 for the a game where players from the semis won't be involved then a 3rd incorporating all the rest for usa and Canada.

I think Eddie likes to have a lock/6 hybrid in the 23 even if they don't start. Lawes has been playing well at 6 for Saints and I suspect he'll be looked at in that role for the Lions as will Beirne.

For England Eddie should be using this summer to look at other options as Lawes is now 31 and will probably go back into the row alongside Itoje in the Autumn. 

I'd be interested to see what Eddie does if all of Underhill, Curry and Vunipola are fit. Will he go back to that backrow or having seen them overpowered in the world cup final will he go down the route of having an additional jumper and more physicality or horses for courses.