England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

I am a little wary of putting too much weight on the RWC final which was, after all, getting on for 2 years ago.

There is a line somewhere about how armies are always prepared with the last war in mind not the next.

We really shouldnt see that back row again Sam, when you have T.Willis, Dombrandt, Chick, Ted Hill, Martin etc etc all playing well.

Play horses for courses...

Vunipola at his best and any back row he's in looks a very different proposition. He's not been at his best probably since before that first arm break. That along with Dombrandt and Simmonds in the form they're in surely puts his place in the autumn under massive pressure.

I think Tom Willis looks better than the lot potentially.

Gabriel Oghre replaces Jack Singleton

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gabriel Oghre replaces Jack Singleton

Covid exposure related, so may only be temporary. Apart from having a fantastic name is Oghre any good?

Decent but wouldn't trouble a full England squad anytime soon. Reinforces that this is about development rather than the next best when you see mcguigan left out.

Just watching the Josh Hodge score for try of the season again....this boy is something special.

I really hope he gets more game time next season to iron out his flaws because he's got stardust the other contenders just don't have. Plus, he's an outstanding goal kicker!

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Gabriel Oghre replaces Jack Singleton

Covid exposure related, so may only be temporary. Apart from having a fantastic name is Oghre any good?

Needs work on his arrows imo

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Just watching the Josh Hodge score for try of the season again....this boy is something special.

I really hope he gets more game time next season to iron out his flaws because he's got stardust the other contenders just don't have. Plus, he's an outstanding goal kicker!

Hodge has the potential to be something special for sure. The footwork, outside arc and hand off in that try against Gloucester is just natural ability.

Despite being about 12 stone dripping wet he hasn't looked out of place defensively either.

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Just watching the Josh Hodge score for try of the season again....this boy is something special.

I really hope he gets more game time next season to iron out his flaws because he's got stardust the other contenders just don't have. Plus, he's an outstanding goal kicker!

Hodge has the potential to be something special for sure. The footwork, outside arc and hand off in that try against Gloucester is just natural ability.

Despite being about 12 stone dripping wet he hasn't looked out of place defensively either.

He's got decent tackle technique which always helps. Has got to stop dropping the ball in contact though. Currently he looks like a development player with potential whilst his contemporaries are looking like first team players so he's playing catch up but at his age that's not an issue. 

Seems a bit down the Chiefs pecking order but hopefully a proper pre season and Hogg's post Lions rest period means he gets some game time. Having him and the younger Cordero in the same back three is pretty eye catching ball in hand.

He does need that run of games. Being behind Hogg he's unlikely to get many chances. He's definitely got the point of difference though.

I'd say Freeman and Steward look a year ahead in development (despite Hodge being almost a year older), but Hodge has that bit of magic that you can't teach.

I suspect if he'd stayed at Falcons, he'd have had 10 or so starts by now.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd say Freeman and Steward look a year ahead in development (despite Hodge being almost a year older), but Hodge has that bit of magic that you can't teach.

I suspect if he'd stayed at Falcons, he'd have had 10 or so starts by now.

Even with Dean as coach?

Steward is always going to look ahead in terms of development early doors as he was 6ft5 and nearly 16 stone at 19. He's got to keep pushing his skillset, he's got great basic but now has to develop beyond that. If he can get that cannon of a boot dialled in to start finding deep touches in the opponent's half from his own 22 (he's got the range) then that would be one way to really stand out.

Freeman looks excellent in attack but needs to show he can be really solid at the back in terms of positioning and tactical play. That and the surgery sorts his knees out this summer because he looks a little bit made of glass currently.

Freeman will be fine.  The surgical procedure is minor and he played this past weekend and looked secure under foot.  Ten years ago, most docs wouldn't even bother with it but is a prudent step at this stage of his career.  He needs to put a little weight on his frame but I think that will happen naturally.

Steward has the big advantage of that seemingly natural weight. When the slighter guys come through there is a tendancy to want them to make up that weight and still offer their own natural strengths. There's the perception that guys like Tait didn't really improve as they could have done despite reaching a world cup final.

Guess that's where you own your money as a conditioning coach.

I see Hodge and think of Balshaw.

lostinwales wrote:I see Hodge and think of Balshaw.

Yeah that was my first impression when we saw him at the falcons.

Sean Robinson injured and removed from squad, replaced by Josh McInally?

MCL injury, hopefully its not serious. Hes a big player for the Falcons.

Running out of available locks but shouldn't matter for the a game.

Longer than this tour but interesting lineups for Sale and Exeter. 2 sets of English centres in Tuilagi and James and Devoto and Slade. Both Currys line up together and Jack Nowell at full back. Think I'm right in saying thats his first game there since his great performance vs Saracens (before hobbling off)?

Malins back on the wing as well. Unless the other Piutau is off soon hard to see him regularly playing at full back, which isn't ideal if Jones does see him a longer term option there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Running out of available locks but shouldn't matter for the a game.

It might move Kpoku closer to a call up once Sarries are done with leg 2 of the playoffs which I'd love to see. It's clear from Blamire and Oghre ahead of McGuigan that it's being viewed as development anyway.

Malins is going back to Sarries so will be competing/rotating with Goode for the 15 shirt again.

Course he is. Forgot given theyve got some back and not others.

king_carlos wrote:Malins is going back to Sarries so will be competing/rotating with Goode for the 15 shirt again.

Might be a bit uncomfortable for Malins, and probably a couple of others going back to Saracens, since they were regulars at the clubs they were loaned to. Can't quite imagine Malins will relish being a bench or an alternating player when he might be the starting fullback in the Premiership championship game. Isekwe was mostly starting (except generally when rotated for rest) and a very valuable cog at Saints. At Saracens, he will just be another dude in the mix.

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Malins is going back to Sarries so will be competing/rotating with Goode for the 15 shirt again.

Might be a bit uncomfortable for Malins, and probably a couple of others going back to Saracens, since they were regulars at the clubs they were loaned to.  Can't quite imagine Malins will relish being a bench or an alternating player when he might be the starting fullback in the Premiership championship game.  Isekwe was mostly starting (except generally when rotated for rest) and a very valuable cog at Saints.  At Saracens, he will just be another dude in the mix.

Mike Rhodes has just been released. I suspect Sarries will look to use Isiekwe at 6 in the Rhodes type role. Sarries backrow stocks aren't necessarily that stacked. Isiekwe, Earl, Vunipola and Wray are the four you'd assume will make up the match day 23 with Reffell and Venter maybe Clark still coming in as required.

Malins though he will be annoyed if he's sat in the bench. He could maybe drop onto the wing as he's doing for Bristol. Sarries have got depth at centre but not quite so much at wing. Sarries are unlikely to offer up an early release as he'd be heading to another English club and long term they'll want him what with Goode not getting any younger.

Sarries under McCall have been good at rotation.

Isiekwe was locked in as Sarries starting blindside before the salary cap stuff and I expect he will be when returning. They've also lost Kruis and Skelton so he might even get some opportunities in the row.

Malins is a different scenario with Goode a McCall favourite.

king_carlos wrote:Isiekwe was locked in as Sarries starting blindside before the salary cap stuff and I expect he will be when returning. They've also lost Kruis and Skelton so he might even get some opportunities in the row.

Malins is a different scenario with Goode a McCall favourite.

This may sound like a joke, but I truly wonder what Sarries salary spend will be next season.  They can't keep everyone without opening a whole new investigation.  They must have a lot of players, whom I presume are still on large contracts, even if they took cuts.  

If Isekwe gets regular game time, he might be happy, but he was a really highly valued player at Saints and not just another brick in the wall.  

Ben Earl, the same, methinks.  A young England player with nice upside not being a regular?  

But no doubts about Malins, he was absolutely fantastic in a great Bristol squad, and would be nuts for him to not be a locked in starter whatever team he plays for.  Not pushing for him to come to Saints as I think we are developing out own, but I think he has to GTFO of Sarries.  Just don't, don't, don't let him go to Tiggers.............

Can't see us spending big on Malins when we have Steward and Murimurivalu at the club so you are safe there.

Sarries lost Carre, Singleton, Gray, Figallo, Lamisitole, Skelton, Kruis, Wigglesworth, Spencer, Barritt, Williams, Gallagher and Hakalo. That's a lot of cap and not signed much in terms of cost since. There'll be no requirement to cut down to the cap because you have to meet all the Prem requirements if you want promotion from the Championship.

I think they were about 1-1.2m over the cap?

Realistically, that's about 4 top players (Kruis/Skelton/Wiggles/Williams)? Plus all the extra players that Sam has mentioned. No doubt they'll be straight back to challenging, they have an amazing core of young English players.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Can't see us spending big on Malins when we have Steward and Murimurivalu at the club so you are safe there.

Sarries lost Carre, Singleton, Gray, Figallo, Lamisitole, Skelton, Kruis, Wigglesworth, Spencer, Barritt, Williams, Gallagher and Hakalo. That's a lot of cap and not signed much in terms of cost since. There'll be no requirement to cut down to the cap because you have to meet all the Prem requirements if you want promotion from the Championship.

They haven't met all the requirements with their stadium.

1.Vunipola 2.George 3.Koch 4.Itoje 5.Swinson 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.van Zyl 10.Farrell 11.Maitland 12.Tompkins 13.Lozowski 14.Daly 15.Goode

16.Woolstencroft 17.Barrington 18.Ibaunokope 19.Kpoku 20.Wray 21.de Haas 22.Vunipola 23.Malins

I don't think that side screams breaking the cap at all to be fair. It's whether they keep all their very talented EQP youngsters at their next contract renewals that will be interesting. Breaking the cap makes it much easier to retain young players who might not be getting quite as much game time as they would elsewhere. To Farrell or Itoje a £25k pay rise/cut isn't that significant really but to a guy such as Rotimi Segun it's huge. Ben Spencer was there for a long time without nailing down the first choice shirt but may well have been on a similar wage that he'd have got elsewhere as a starter for instance due to the cap infringements. That depth is what will change.

It's those sorts of players they always used to keep that they might not anymore. Ali Crossdale and Tom Whiteley have already moved on. Ralph Adams-Hale is a pretty good loosehead to be a third choice so may move. Dom Morris looks a fantastic 13 and isn't even in the 23 I've named above.

I always feel really bad for Wasps when discussing the deeper effects of the salary cap stuff with Sarries. They lost Billy Vunipola, Daly and Lozowski to a side that was paying wages no one could match.

It was the depth that always told a tale with saracens. When the first team played they always looked remarkably fresh.

With Nowell looking so good on his return I'd expect him to be added to the England squads after the final.

Dombrandt had one of the most rounded performances I've seen from him as well. He was noticeably vocal in defence which is a massive thing for a back row forward making the jump up to international rugby. His fitness has come such a long way as well.

Exeter - Devoto, J Simmonds, O'Flaherty, (Nowell, Slade)
Quins - Dombrandt, Smith, Marchant

Bristol - Earl, Malins, Randall, O'Conor, Capon
Sale - B Curry, Rodd, S James, (Manu)
Sarries - Kpoku, (Billy)

I'd expect a fair bit of movement in and out of the squad over the next couple of weeks with more players available. The players above are the guys I'd expect to come into contention. Some nailed on and some with outside bets.

From the Bristol, Sale and Sarries players that can now be added I'd guess that Earl, Curry, Randall and Malins are absolutely nailed on. Then O'Conor and Rodd should have really good chances. I'd take Capon over Oghre as well. I would really love the intent of getting Kpoku in as he offers something different in a key position.

It's a shame Thacker got injured in the semi as it would have been a good chance too look at him. He's such an unusual hooker that Jones and Proudfoot may just not view him as an international though to be fair. Whilst I'm a huge Thacker fan I could understand that to an extent.

The experienced players coming available I've put in brackets as we've no idea who will be rested until the squads are named.

Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Will Capon (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 28 caps)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Curtis Langdon (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 8 caps)
Lewis Ludlow (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Joshua McNally (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Chunya Munga (London Irish, uncapped)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
Miles Reid (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 22 caps)
Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)

BACKS
Josh Bassett (Wasps, uncapped)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 3 caps)
Dan Kelly (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, 7 caps)
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Max Ojomoh (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 12 caps)
Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks, 43 caps)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)

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Eddie sees them in training, so fair enough, but I've no idea how Cokanasiga makes the cut there ahead of OHC.

Quick question, is ben curry as anywhere as good as his brother?

Margin_Walker wrote:Eddie sees them in training, so fair enough, but I've no idea how Cokanasiga makes the cut there ahead of OHC.

Has Cokasaniga been playing centre quite a bit?

On a biased note...great to see 4 Falcons still in there...thry must have impressed.

Maine man wrote:Quick question, is ben curry as anywhere as good as his brother?

Yes, some would argue hes potentially better...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Maine man wrote:Quick question, is ben curry as anywhere as good as his brother?

Yes, some would argue hes potentially better...

Really. Wow. I'll keep an eye out for him.

Margin_Walker wrote:Eddie sees them in training, so fair enough, but I've no idea how Cokanasiga makes the cut there ahead of OHC.

There will be some knocks im sure. Not really surprised by Cokanasiga myself, really rate him and if he can get back to his best he'll be excellent for us.ngiven sleightholme has come in could be that hassell Collins has picked up an injury. Just a guess though. Can't see Jones really wanting to see more of Bassett than H-C given he's a good club player but nothing more.

I've only seen him play wing Geordie

Should be a good game. I've missed England A games. They are usually good fun.

Maine man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Maine man wrote:Quick question, is ben curry as anywhere as good as his brother?

Yes, some would argue hes potentially better...

Really. Wow. I'll keep an eye out for him.

Tom curry is probably the best flanker in the world now. His brother was initially up there with him preferred initially by Jones but a distance behind in development. If given a chance may well come on as quickly. Anywhere near as good? Not yet.

By my reckoning these are the changes.

Added: Rodd, Capon, Langdon, Randall, Tuilagi, Sleightholme, Furbank, Malins

Released: Singleton, Willis, Spencer, de Glanville, Dingwall, Hassell-Collins, Parton

Singleton out with Blamire, Capon and Langdon retained is interesting. Blamire and Capon I really like.

I'd have kept Hassell-Collins and Parton ahead of Cokanasiga, Bassett and Furbank personally. Delighted that Sleightholme has been added and Radwan retained in the back three through.

A touch disappointed that Dingwall has been released as I really like him but Manu, Lawrence, Kelly and Ojomoh are a talented group of centres.

Presumably the Sarries players were considered so Billy another on the rested list and Kpoku not in the squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:Eddie sees them in training, so fair enough, but I've no idea how Cokanasiga makes the cut there ahead of OHC.

There will be some knocks im sure. Not really surprised by Cokanasiga myself, really rate him and if he can get back to his best he'll be excellent for us.ngiven sleightholme has come in could be that hassell Collins has picked up an injury. Just a guess though. Can't see Jones really wanting to see more of Bassett than H-C given he's a good club player but nothing more.

I dunno. I like Bassett and you don't usually pick a wing at that age unless you want to take a proper look.

Plenty of talent on the wing anyway. Wing and back row are the most competitive positions imo

Margin_Walker wrote:I've only seen him play wing Geordie

Should be a good game. I've missed England A games. They are usually good fun.

Ah right I'm sure he played 12 against us. I was just wondering if Jones had the idea of him being the power midfielder...

Margin_Walker wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:Eddie sees them in training, so fair enough, but I've no idea how Cokanasiga makes the cut there ahead of OHC.

There will be some knocks im sure. Not really surprised by Cokanasiga myself, really rate him and if he can get back to his best he'll be excellent for us.ngiven sleightholme has come in could be that hassell Collins has picked up an injury. Just a guess though. Can't see Jones really wanting to see more of Bassett than H-C given he's a good club player but nothing more.

I dunno. I like Bassett and you don't usually pick a wing at that age unless you want to take a proper look.

Plenty of talent on the wing anyway. Wing and back row are the most competitive positions imo

Just read Jones quotes so doesn't look like there were injuries. Surprises me Bassett is meh.

Maine man wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Maine man wrote:Quick question, is ben curry as anywhere as good as his brother?

Yes, some would argue hes potentially better...

Really. Wow. I'll keep an eye out for him.

At around 18 or 19-years-old Ben was slightly ahead of Tom it seemed. Both made the Argentina tour in 2017 with England, being picked for that tour instead of them being with the U20s. Ben got a nasty injury whilst Tom got his debut on the tour and kicked on from there.

At the point Ben got injured the two had similar physiques but after Ben losing a year of development and rugby at a vital time they looked completely different physically (Tom put on a lot of bulk) and on the pitch. By the following summer Tom was starting for the senior England team whilst Ben was back captaining the U20s for his final year eligible with them, having been in the full England squad a year earlier.

It's taken Ben a few years to catch up on that physical development and translate it onto the pitch but when fit in the last 12 months he has been very impressive indeed. Sale's win against Bristol a few weeks back is a great example. Ben was recently back from injury but the twins started on either flank and Ben arguably outplayed Tom in a brutal defensive display from Sale.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:I've only seen him play wing Geordie

Should be a good game. I've missed England A games. They are usually good fun.

Ah right  I'm sure he played 12 against us. I was just wondering if Jones had the idea of him being the power midfielder...

You're probably thinking of his brother Phil.

Tom Willis going home and only Calum Chick is a recognised No.8.....until Dombrandt comes in ...