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Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

In the first Test during the 2017 New Zealand tour, can anyone recall why Gatland handed the captaincy to POM rather than AWJ?

All I can imagine, is Gatland hadn't fully made up his mind on whether to start AWJ, or play him off the bench, so went with POM as he knew he would be in the Test XV.

I can't say I have an answer to that other than POM's form on tour was very strong up to that point and (after checking) AWJ was brought off for Itoje in that Test after only 50 minutes.

Incidentally POM was one of the players I'd marked as having a potential shot in the squad in spite of his own 6N or rather lack of it. He was the only 'pure' blindside in consideration and his defensive lineout jumping isn't really matched by any of the other back rows. But he needed to inspire Munster to wins against Leinster and Toulouse and instead suffered a laceration against the former in the Pro14 final and missed the defeat to Toulouse.

As it is Beirne (who was Telfer's player of the 6N as well as mine) looks in pole position at 6 but even he plays more often in the second row. Otherwise you shift one of the 7s over and play dual opensides a la Curry and Underhill, Warburton and Tipuric, Hooper and Pocock etc. I'm sure it could be done but it might be quite a bold tactic to attempt against the heavy SA pack.

Didn't POM pick up a red card before the tour in Europe and got himself banned ?

Or am I imagining this ? Am I thinking of another Irish player ?

Hmm that's not ringing any bells for me LD

Cutting out most of the article just to make a point

No 7&1/2 wrote:From the BBC re player release in England:

'Premiership players from clubs not involved in the final will be released for the British and Irish Lions' warm-up game against Japan on 26 June.

The match at Murrayfield is on the same day as the Premiership final and the league said that in future it would not release players until after that match.

I am convinced our sport is run by the biggest bunch of inbred hyenas ever to grace the planet.  This was always going to happen, Premiership players not involved in the finals being released.  There are examples from every Rugby playing country.  No one is exempt.  I can only imagine what would happen if our sport was led and managed by real professionals.  Competent, even. Just think of the possibilities....

Rugby Fan wrote:In the first Test during the 2017 New Zealand tour, can anyone recall why Gatland handed the captaincy to POM rather than AWJ?

All I can imagine, is Gatland hadn't fully made up his mind on whether to start AWJ, or play him off the bench, so went with POM as he knew he would be in the Test XV.

Hmmm. That's a bit of a stretch. Probably wishes he went for AWJ now though, seeing as POM was dropped like a stone and AWJ wasn't.

Rugby Fan wrote:In the first Test during the 2017 New Zealand tour, can anyone recall why Gatland handed the captaincy to POM rather than AWJ?

All I can imagine, is Gatland hadn't fully made up his mind on whether to start AWJ, or play him off the bench, so went with POM as he knew he would be in the Test XV.

That's quite an imagination you've got

Actually it was quite the opposite
AWJ was the form engine room, captain Warburton couldn't shift POM on the blind side as he was in the form of his life, ditto SOB. I remember a crowd of Irish in our hotel bar claiming Gats had stated he wanted the same scrummaging power that dismantled the Crusaders which had included the entire All Blacks front five hence AWJ started Itoje on the bench along with Warburton (start of a luurve up of Warburton on Itoje). Gats & Co could have picked half a dozen captains on the day, he went for POM purely because he did a good job v the Maoris.

LordDowlais wrote:Didn't POM pick up a red card before the tour in Europe and got himself banned ?

Or am I imagining this ? Am I thinking of another Irish player ?

That happened to Alan Quinlan, he had been picked to be on a Lions tour I think but then got cited for a gouge on Leo Cullen.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/quinlan-cited-over-gouging-incident-1.1227060

Going off topic for a moment, can anyone tell me why some Irish players on wiki have Irish versions of their names and some do not? Is it a choice they make? Or does it denote that they’re first language Irish speakers or something? Just looked up Alan Quinlan who is listed in brackets as (Irish: Ailín Ó Caoindealbhain). Did a couple of Irish players and some (e.g. Ronan O’Gara) has an Irish translation after his name while others (e.g. Paul O’Connell) do not.

Just being nosey really! And find it quite interesting. I know some in Wales choose to go back to the old (patronymic?) format and name themselves things like ap Gruffyd instead of Griffiths, etc.

Do any Irish players on here use Anglicised (if that’s the right term) and Irish names at different times?

Some people use the Irish version of their name unofficially in Ireland most people cant be arsed. I have an Irish first name, most people outside of Ireland really struggle with it, I get called all sorts. Bit of craic.

I enjoy British commentators struggles with Tadgh and Caolan etc.

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Didn't POM pick up a red card before the tour in Europe and got himself banned ?

Or am I imagining this ? Am I thinking of another Irish player ?

That happened to Alan Quinlan, he had been picked to be on a Lions tour I think but then got cited for a gouge on Leo Cullen.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/quinlan-cited-over-gouging-incident-1.1227060

Yes Quinlan got left behind and the in form Tom Croft got to go and show that he had a physical aspect to his game people doubted.

Croft was fantastic on that tour. Quinlan was perhaps lucky that his gouges occurred during another time in rugby.

The Oracle wrote:Going off topic for a moment, can anyone tell me why some Irish players on wiki have Irish versions of their names and some do not? Is it a choice they make? Or does it denote that they’re first language Irish speakers or something? Just looked up Alan Quinlan who is listed in brackets as (Irish: Ailín Ó Caoindealbhain). Did a couple of Irish players and some (e.g. Ronan O’Gara) has an Irish translation after his name while others (e.g. Paul O’Connell) do not.

Just being nosey really! And find it quite interesting. I know some in Wales choose to go back to the old (patronymic?) format and name themselves things like ap Gruffyd instead of Griffiths, etc.

Do any Irish players on here use Anglicised (if that’s the right term) and Irish names at different times?

I remember a story from very long ago when some Irish people would register for the dole under both the Irish and Anglicised versions of their name

That story sounds like it’s probably very true.

flyhalffactory wrote:...Gats & Co could have picked half a dozen captains on the day...

Not from that starting XV. I'd seen Conor Murray's name floated as a potential tour captain before the squad was announced but none of the others had been, and none were regular captains at their clubs. AWJ was the more obvious choice.

Looking back through some contemporary reports, it seems like Gatland may have been hoping to ride POM's late rich vein of form. This is from the BBC account:

Munster flanker O'Mahony was not a regular pick for Ireland in this year's Six Nations after losing his place following a long-term knee injury. The 27-year-old's solitary start came when he was recalled for their final match against England, but only after Jamie Heaslip was injured in the warm-up. O'Mahony was named man of the match as Ireland beat Eddie Jones' side to deny them a second successive Grand Slam.

He captained the Lions in Saturday's win over Maori All Blacks - the final tour game before the opening Test - and impressed in the back row alongside Taulupe Faletau and Sean O'Brien.

"It's a reward for how the back row has gone. There is a nice balance there," said Gatland, who named the same trio for the Test. "Peter has done a good job."

In other words, Gatland's captains choice probably tells us nothing about how he was using AWJ on that tour, and more more about the performance he hoped to get out of POM.

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Sexton also increasingly made of glass - so play him by all means but you have to have a plan B

You dont get over 100 international caps if you are made of glass. Sextons problem is he likes to get involved in rucks and big tackles. He doesnt shy away from the physical stuff.

Sexton rarely misses games for Ireland because of injury.

'Increasingly'. He wasn't but times change. Head injuries have started being a thing though

Right on cue Sexton pulls out of the champions cup semi final due to injury, ongoing HIA.

flyhalffactory wrote: Itoje on the bench along with Warburton (start of a luurve up of Warburton on Itoje).

Riiightt

So Warburton's "luurve up" on Itoje is mainly due to 50 odd mins sat on a bench with him in New Zealand. Wow, Maro must be a really charismatic, energetic individual, a real leader of men to make such an impression on the Lions tour captain! Sounds like the sort of chap born to be Lions captain this time round then

George North out with an ACL rupture

Such bad luck for him, there is always one really unlucky player each time!

According to the Ospreys North is out for the rest of the season with a surgery due next week.

Damn you BigGee.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Damn you BigGee.

BigGee wrote:George North out with an ACL rupture

Such bad luck for him, there is always one really unlucky player each time!

Is that right? Shame for him. Launchbury with an ACL, too. Not sure it's the same injury, but a weird coincidence.

https://twitter.com/George_North/status/1387331058807578626


Got to feel for him, you would never have imagined he would have been back in contention this time around but he got himself there just to have it snatched away.

BamBam wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote: Itoje on the bench along with Warburton (start of a luurve up of Warburton on Itoje).

Riiightt

So Warburton's "luurve up" on Itoje is mainly due to 50 odd mins sat on a bench with him in New Zealand. Wow, Maro must be a really charismatic, energetic individual, a real leader of men to make such an impression on the Lions tour captain! Sounds like the sort of chap born to be Lions captain this time round then

I wouldn't start jumping ugly on Itoje. He has led Saracens a few times in the Premiership, he is a very good player, appears to have a strong relationship with his teammates, and does come off well in interviews. I'm not saying who should be captain, but he appears to me to have a decent chance to be in the running.

BamBam wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote: Itoje on the bench along with Warburton (start of a luurve up of Warburton on Itoje).

Riiightt

So Warburton's "luurve up" on Itoje is mainly due to 50 odd mins sat on a bench with him in New Zealand. Wow, Maro must be a really charismatic, energetic individual, a real leader of men to make such an impression on the Lions tour captain! Sounds like the sort of chap born to be Lions captain this time round then

I did say "start" you know the saying "best friends are often borne out of adversity"

You could always simply say to Maro...your captain...stop your hooping and hollaring...and act like a captain. Im pretty sure he would do it.

I’d rather not tell him to curtail the personality that would be a big part of who he is and why he was selected as captain in the first place

BigGee wrote:https://twitter.com/George_North/status/1387331058807578626


Got to feel for him, you would never have imagined he would have been back in contention this time around but he got himself there just to have it snatched away.

Losing his physical ball carrying ability is a blow, but if Tuilagi were to get back in time perhaps he would be worth a roll of the dice as a replacement? If not, what would the four centre options be?

I'd probably say Henshaw, Farrell, Davies and one of Harris, Slade, Ringrose or Huw Jones if he can recover from his foot injury in time for the japan test.

Wouldn’t mind Harris going. The SA 13 is a brilliant player, can’t remember his name. We need strong first up tackling in that area imo

BamBam wrote:I’d rather not tell him to curtail the personality that would be a big part of who he is and why he was selected as captain in the first place

Not saying to curtail his personality...just reign in the massive celebrations for every turnover etc. As an England fan it actually irritates me incredibly. And yet i see Itoje as a future England Captain.

Just a bit more control in certain areas.

JD2 is woefully out of form. I wouldn't consider him personally. He might be OK to plug the defense but that's about it currently.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:I’d rather not tell him to curtail the personality that would be a big part of who he is and why he was selected as captain in the first place

Not saying to curtail his personality...just reign in the massive celebrations for every turnover etc. As an England fan it actually irritates me incredibly. And yet i see Itoje as a future England Captain.

Just a bit more control in certain areas.

But that is curtailing his personality. If his natural reaction is to celebrate, making him think twice about something as insignificant as that could easily filter into the rest of his game. Take him as he is, or choose someone else

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:I’d rather not tell him to curtail the personality that would be a big part of who he is and why he was selected as captain in the first place

Not saying to curtail his personality...just reign in the massive celebrations for every turnover etc. As an England fan it actually irritates me incredibly. And yet i see Itoje as a future England Captain.

Just a bit more control in certain areas.

I watched a highlights video someone had put together a while back about Itoje's shouting and screaming at lineouts and rucks, etc. It was horrible! Not sure if he's trying to put the opposition off or just pumping himself up but I just remember thinking 'just stop shouting'!

The Oracle wrote:JD2 is woefully out of form.  I wouldn't consider him personally.  He might be OK to plug the defense but that's about it currently.

I am not even sure it is form with JD2. Unfortunately injuries and father time may have caught up with him.

BigGee wrote:

The Oracle wrote:JD2 is woefully out of form.  I wouldn't consider him personally.  He might be OK to plug the defense but that's about it currently.

I am not even sure it is form with JD2. Unfortunately injuries and father time may have caught up with him.

Perhaps a bit of both. He got skinned by Holmes on the weekend, hopefully he gets back into the Wales set up as he’s been in really good form lately.

I think North being out probably means Farrell is a sure thing. Our midfield doesn’t seem as threatening without North, so I’d be content with putting big defensive players there and having our attack come from the wingers as there’s a good few of those.

BamBam wrote:Wouldn’t mind Harris going. The SA 13 is a brilliant player, can’t remember his name. We need strong first up tackling in that area imo

Harris or Slade look like the front runners for that 13 shirt now, both offer the defensive stability that's needed. Would in truth select Henshaw but with the lack of options at 12 he'll be needed there instead.

BamBam wrote:Wouldn’t mind Harris going. The SA 13 is a brilliant player, can’t remember his name. We need strong first up tackling in that area imo

Lukhanyo Am was the guy in possession of the SA 13 jersey, De Allende plays 12 and Jessie Kriel/Frans Steyn subs. Could well have changed by the summer. Not sure if guys like De Allende who now plays for Munster will be back in the SA squad, Kriel and Steyn also play abroad.

Collapse2005 wrote:

BamBam wrote:Wouldn’t mind Harris going. The SA 13 is a brilliant player, can’t remember his name. We need strong first up tackling in that area imo

Lukhanyo Am was the guy in possession of the SA 13 jersey, De Allende plays 12 and Jessie Kriel/Frans Steyn subs. Could well have changed by the summer. Not sure if guys like De Allende who now plays for Munster will be back in the SA squad, Kriel and Steyn also play abroad.

Yeah Am is the player I was thinking of

Soul Requiem wrote:

BamBam wrote:Wouldn’t mind Harris going. The SA 13 is a brilliant player, can’t remember his name. We need strong first up tackling in that area imo

Harris or Slade look like the front runners for that 13 shirt now, both offer the defensive stability that's needed. Would in truth select Henshaw but with the lack of options at 12 he'll be needed there instead.

Slade shouldn't be he was really poor in the 6N. Admittedly that's because the midfield balance didn't work. Given the normal quality at 13 across B&I he shouldn't get in but I guess injuries are his friend in this. Even as an England fan he wouldn't be high up my list.

mikey_dragon wrote:
I think North being out probably means Farrell is a sure thing. Our midfield doesn’t seem as threatening without North, so I’d be content with putting big defensive players there and having our attack come from the wingers as there’s a good few of those.

If you want a defensive centre you do not pick Farrell.  His tackle stats are rubbish and his technique is a red card waiting to happen

for a defensive 13 Harris is your man. good over the 6N and fantastic against France. Saving tries and creating turnovers

Isn't Itoje's celebrating part of England's "create your own atmosphere" thing? I don't overly agree with it, but it's just the way things are now. Every team goes overboard on celebrating things, from the subs celebrating tries etc to all the whooping etc and the pats on the backs for scrum penalties. It's the way of the world now.

Big shame for North and Launchbury. I really wouldn't take JD2, but know he will go. Aneurin Owen was the best centre on show, on Sunday.

Now that North is out, I would go for Henshaw and Ringrose. But Gatland will probably put JD2 in there.

BamBam wrote:Wouldn’t mind Harris going. The SA 13 is a brilliant player, can’t remember his name. We need strong first up tackling in that area imo

I thought Chris Harris had an excellent Six Nations. He's not flash, but I'm not sure you need your centres to be flash when you're playing South African sides.

We have to win the series, we can't go there to defend full stop and hope for a breakaway, so we can't have a defensive 10/12 or 10/13

13 North out, JD2 seriously off form, Farrell even worse, Tuilagi hasn't even played yet and looks like he won't play until end of May

So a couple of curve balls
13 Strong Defence, great support play and better offensively than most people appreciate = Harris
13 Fast & Solid = Daly (who has been playing 13 for Sarries this season)
12 Russell = played well there with Hastings at 10, go the speed of thought and pace to burn

Strong 10, adventurous 12, fast 13 = Biggar/Russell/Daly
or an alternative Russell/Henshaw/Harris

I still think if JD2 is off the pace, Gats & Co will go

10 Sexton
12 Farrell
13 Henshaw

IMHO that's a nightmare for the Lions and specifically for Henshaw

BamBam wrote:Wouldn’t mind Harris going. The SA 13 is a brilliant player, can’t remember his name. We need strong first up tackling in that area imo

Lukhanyo Am

I am pretty sure Harris would have gone anyway, but he is a lot nearer the test team now that North is out.

He is a much better defensive player than North is, even if he does not offer quite such a direct threat going forward. He is a decent passer though, possibly better than North at bring the wingers into the game.

Its amazing how quickly Harris stock has risen - look on the scotland threads - a year ago we were all moaning about Toonie picking him :-)

TJ wrote:Its amazing how quickly Harris stock has risen - look on the scotland threads - a year ago we were all moaning about Toonie picking him :-)

Exactly, that's what worries me a bit. If his own fans don't rate him....... is a year enough, or is it just a short purple patch?

The Oracle wrote:

TJ wrote:Its amazing how quickly Harris stock has risen - look on the scotland threads - a year ago we were all moaning about Toonie picking him :-)

Exactly, that's what worries me a bit.  If his own fans don't rate him....... is a year enough, or is it just a short purple patch?

I think it was more that he was seem as limited in terms of just being solid defensively. He's been in good form for Glos too, and really has been vital to Scotland's improvement (which coincides with an improvement in defence.

Centre is a bit like hooker and scrum half, there are going to be selections made based on either previous form or the hope of producing. I would personally take Henshaw, Ringrose, Harris and Slade, but would have taken North or Johnny Williams ahead of Slade if fit.

I hadn’t seen much of Harris up until the recent 6N. People seem to unanimously agree on him though, so I’m willing to go with that for now.