LIONS ANNOUNCEMENT

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

i did tell the Scotland fans Harris was a good player . When he burst through with us from the academy and his early years.....he was scoring tries for fun as a winger / break making 13.

He's since change his game...but he's always been a brute of a tackler. He's made some bone crunchers up at KP through the years...for his light frame.

Never thought he'd be a Lion though...and im still not sure. But good on him if he makes it.

chris_501 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

TJ wrote:Its amazing how quickly Harris stock has risen - look on the scotland threads - a year ago we were all moaning about Toonie picking him :-)

Exactly, that's what worries me a bit.  If his own fans don't rate him....... is a year enough, or is it just a short purple patch?

I think it was more that he was seem as limited in terms of just being solid defensively. He's been in good form for Glos too, and really has been vital to Scotland's improvement (which coincides with an improvement in defence.

Centre is a bit like hooker and scrum half, there are going to be selections made based on either previous form or the hope of producing. I would personally take Henshaw, Ringrose, Harris and Slade, but would have taken North or Johnny Williams ahead of Slade if fit.

Hooker seems to be often an area of weakness for the Lions. Dont think there is a standout player in this position again. Neither of the hookers on the last couple of tours were great really, George and Youngs are average enough players. George cant hit a barn door and Youngs was a bit of a one hit wonder.

If I was selector Id nearly decide who is going to call the lineout first and then pick whatever hooker that guy usually plays with. If thats going to be AWJ then pick Owens etc. If its Itoje who knows, Cowan Dickie maybe?

George hasn’t been in great form generally, but his throwing has never been in doubt for England. It’s more his play around the park that’s been lacking, but that is consistent with the rest of the Saracens contingent.

I'm a fan of McInally, but he's been injured hasn't he? After LCD and Owens, I think George might get in as the third choice

Given the Lions sent 2 coaches to watch Saracens you'd imagine that George is on the radar. As with a lot of the England players well below what he has been during the 6 nations but it must be tempting (as it was with Jones) that they can get those players up to speed. Lets hope they decide its not worth it with Daly though.

Collapse2005 wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

TJ wrote:Its amazing how quickly Harris stock has risen - look on the scotland threads - a year ago we were all moaning about Toonie picking him :-)

Exactly, that's what worries me a bit.  If his own fans don't rate him....... is a year enough, or is it just a short purple patch?

I think it was more that he was seem as limited in terms of just being solid defensively. He's been in good form for Glos too, and really has been vital to Scotland's improvement (which coincides with an improvement in defence.

Centre is a bit like hooker and scrum half, there are going to be selections made based on either previous form or the hope of producing. I would personally take Henshaw, Ringrose, Harris and Slade, but would have taken North or Johnny Williams ahead of Slade if fit.

Hooker seems to be often an area of weakness for the Lions. Dont think there is a standout player in this position again. Neither of the hookers on the last couple of tours were great really, George and Youngs are average enough players. George cant hit a barn door and Youngs was a bit of a one hit wonder.

If I was selector Id nearly decide who is going to call the lineout first and then pick whatever hooker that guy usually plays with. If thats going to be AWJ then pick Owens etc. If its Itoje who knows, Cowan Dickie maybe?

Jamie George has had a quiet year admittedly...but he isnt an average player.....Back on form hes a very good hooker...and as for not hitting a barn door?? Really??

...and LCD has been very good aswell...

I think Slade alongside a good center like Henshaw could be more than useful. A lot of the general complaints amongst England fans seem to be linked to him not doing as well as he could, but he does have a big skill set and he is no mug in defence.

Another year we might be talking about JJ or even Joe Marchant.

BamBam wrote:George hasn’t been in great form generally, but his throwing has never been in doubt for England. It’s more his play around the park that’s been lacking, but that is consistent with the rest of the Saracens contingent.

I'm a fan of McInally, but he's been injured hasn't he? After LCD and Owens, I think George might get in as the third choice

McInally has been injured and I don't think back playing yet. Frazer brown is back playing after injury and he also plays 7. Both would have been contenders without the injuries

lostinwales wrote:I think Slade alongside a good center like Henshaw could be more than useful. A lot of the general complaints amongst England fans seem to be linked to him not doing as well as he could, but he does have a big skill set and he is no mug in defence.

Another year we might be talking about JJ or even Joe Marchant.

I think many see Slades skill set as better at 12 than 13 aswell.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I think Slade alongside a good center like Henshaw could be more than useful. A lot of the general complaints amongst England fans seem to be linked to him not doing as well as he could, but he does have a big skill set and he is no mug in defence.

Another year we might be talking about JJ or even Joe Marchant.

I think many see Slades skill set as better at 12 than 13 aswell.

Me too. He's versatile. Did a strong cameo at FB from the bench too.

Is everyone glossing over Ringrose not bagging a centre spot, now that North is out?

The Oracle wrote:

TJ wrote:Its amazing how quickly Harris stock has risen - look on the scotland threads - a year ago we were all moaning about Toonie picking him :-)

Exactly, that's what worries me a bit.  If his own fans don't rate him....... is a year enough, or is it just a short purple patch?

Not all

There's a difference between not liking and not rating. Over the last 3-4 seasons we've had some decent "exciting" OCs including Duncan Taylor, Mark messiah Bennett, Huw Jones so for Toonie to pick Harris went against the grain of

Toonie wrote:"the fastest rugby in the world"

and the claw of most Scottish fans. Like most "steady" players we grudgingly give them credit and we never did it with Harris.
The problem with Scotland is we are a small nation so we have no option but to play expansive rapid rugby but we became the whipping boys if it didn't work, what Harris has done is marshalled the defence, he rarely makes a defensive error, rarely wastes a ball and covers for the "risk-takers" better than any player we have got, but he is also much faster that anyone gives credit for. It's no coincidence since 2019-20 we have become a much more consistent team.

At 6' 2" and 16st 6lbs in my mind he is currently the best defensive centre in world rugby and if you had doubts have a butchers at this for attacking rugby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POXPImKnjmM

flyhalffactory

Maybe Toonie knows what he is doing after all ?

TJ wrote:flyhalffactory

Maybe Toonie knows what he is doing after all ?

He could well do, lets hope so

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I think Slade alongside a good center like Henshaw could be more than useful. A lot of the general complaints amongst England fans seem to be linked to him not doing as well as he could, but he does have a big skill set and he is no mug in defence.

Another year we might be talking about JJ or even Joe Marchant.

I think many see Slades skill set as better at 12 than 13 aswell.

Me too. He's versatile. Did a strong cameo at FB from the bench too.

The odd thing about Slade is he played some games at 10 for Exeter though mostly played 13. If he has the skills for a 10 and 13, he should be able to slot in at second receiver?????

No one has asked for it but here is my test squad. Let’s see what comes.

1.Wyn Jones
2.L Cowan-Dickie
3.Tadhg Furlong
4.J Gray
5.M. Itoje
6.T Beirne
7.H Watson
8.CJ Stander
9. Danny Care
10.F Russell
11.VDM
12.R Henshaw
13.C Harris
14.J Nowells
15.S Hogg

16.K Owens
17.C Healy
18.Z Fagerson
19.D Ryan
20.T Curry
21. B Youngs
22. H. Slade
23. S Maitland

Some SA comments about our guys:

takethelongroad wrote:No one has asked for it but here is my test squad. Let’s see what comes.

1.Wyn Jones
2.L Cowan-Dickie - must e a posh boy with a hyphenated name. Let's mess him up early
3.Tadhg Furlong  Only as long as the Bokkie broadcasters can pronounce Tadhg
4.J Gray
5.M. Itoje
6.T Beirne - The Bokkie broadcasters will keep saying where's Curry
7.H Watson
8.CJ Stander - They will say he's one of us!
9. Danny Care - The only player who might scare them

10.F Russell - Orgasmic with joy at his selection as a Red card waiting to happen
11.VDM- another one of ours
12.R Henshaw - pain in the arse, runs straight and runs very hard.  
13.C Harris
14.J Nowells - Still recovering, let's give him a niggle or two to see if he keeps walking
15.S Hogg - Good bloke in a pub, but a disaster to face on a Rugby pitch

16.K Owens - Has he learned to be behind the receiver on a kick off yet?
17.C Healy - Old school, our school
18.Z Fagerson
19.D Ryan
20.T Curry - glad he is not starting.  
21. B Youngs - finally slowness at the breakdown just as we get tired.  Perfect
22. C. Slade - related to Henry?  Nice player.  
23. S Maitland -failed kiwi

doctor_grey wrote:Some SA comments about our guys:  

takethelongroad wrote:No one has asked for it but here is my test squad. Let’s see what comes.

1.Wyn Jones
2.L Cowan-Dickie - must e a posh boy with a hyphenated name.  Let's mess him up early
3.Tadhg Furlong  Only as long as the Bokkie broadcasters can pronounce Tadhg
4.J Gray
5.M. Itoje
6.T Beirne - The Bokkie broadcasters will keep saying where's Curry
7.H Watson
8.CJ Stander - They will say he's one of us!
9. Danny Care - The only player who might scare them

10.F Russell - Orgasmic with joy at his selection as a Red card waiting to happen
11.VDM- another one of ours
12.R Henshaw - pain in the arse, runs straight and runs very hard.  
13.C Harris
14.J Nowells - Still recovering, let's give him a niggle or two to see if he keeps walking
15.S Hogg - Good bloke in a pub, but a disaster to face on a Rugby pitch

16.K Owens - Has he learned to be behind the receiver on a kick off yet?
17.C Healy - Old school, our school
18.Z Fagerson
19.D Ryan
20.T Curry - glad he is not starting.  
21. B Youngs - finally slowness at the breakdown just as we get tired.  Perfect
22. C. Slade - related to Henry?  Nice player.  
23. S Maitland -failed kiwi

Ben Youngs slowness despite it being pointed out his average breakdown speed is less than that of the average breakdown speed of NZ Super Rugby?

Danny Care is an appalling choice, he'll scare nobody. His kicking game is poor and unless you want to run everything in an open game plan he isn't up to international standard. The Boks would be delighted if he's selected. He's past it, Quins upsurge in form is not a reason to bring back in a 34 year old who hasn't played international rugby since 2018(?).

Will Genia think the best Home Union scrum half, and his choice to be the Lions starter is...Ben Youngs.

It is noticeable that Australians tend to rate Youngs much higher than almost anyone else, including English fans. This is almost certainly down to the fact some of his best performances have come against the Wallabies, and it tends to stick in the mind when an opposition player does well against you. Youngs shone on his debut tour in 2010, and again when England toured in 2016. Altogether, it looks like he's been on the winning side against Australia a dozen times, and lost only four.

Genia also chooses Youngs as his Lions starter because he wants Finn Russell at fly half, and he thinks Ben Youngs would provide the necessary experience, and all-round game to support him. His second choice would be Conor Murray.

The one piece of respite i thought I would get from Youngs is the Lions tour. Slow of decision and poor of pass. Hes had a string of poor games for England with I think 1 good from memory. If he goes at least that does mean we don't see him at all for England and let's someone put their put in the door.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The one piece of respite i thought I would get from Youngs is the Lions tour. Slow of decision and poor of pass. Hes had a string of poor games for England with I think 1 good from memory. If he goes at least that does mean we don't see him at all for England and let's someone put their put in the door.

Was arguably one of England's better players in the 6N and I thought we'd put to bed the tiresome and incorrect speed of pass theory with the whole Squidge Rugby timing the breakdown speed and showing how quick he actually gets the ball away. Now what happens after he gets the ball away was generally unsatisfactory but that's more down to the England lack of attack and awful midfield selection than it was actual speed. The tired rhetoric of Youngs being slow really is just rubbish.

Now there are many things you could suggest are reasons he won't tour (and he might well not). His tendency to kick slightly too long to compete on his box kicks. Thankfully his insistence on playing solely from the base ceased in the 6N because that was never his strength and we actually saw him run with the ball which was refreshing but which he still needs to do more. His cover defence can be hit and miss. His passing accuracy is normally good but he does always keep one shocker in the pocket to bring out each game.

Currently I'd say he's in the running to tour but has work to do of he's going to make the the 23 man test squad. Can see him going and being a leader for the mid week team sort of thing.

I don't think the view of Leicester fans is one universally held by England fans. Small mercies hes not playing for England as I said.

doctor_grey wrote:Some SA comments about our guys:  

takethelongroad wrote:No one has asked for it but here is my test squad. Let’s see what comes.

1.Wyn Jones
2.L Cowan-Dickie - must e a posh boy with a hyphenated name.  Let's mess him up early
3.Tadhg Furlong  Only as long as the Bokkie broadcasters can pronounce Tadhg
4.J Gray
5.M. Itoje
6.T Beirne - The Bokkie broadcasters will keep saying where's Curry
7.H Watson
8.CJ Stander - They will say he's one of us!
9. Danny Care - The only player who might scare them

10.F Russell - Orgasmic with joy at his selection as a Red card waiting to happen
11.VDM- another one of ours
12.R Henshaw - pain in the arse, runs straight and runs very hard.  
13.C Harris
14.J Nowells - Still recovering, let's give him a niggle or two to see if he keeps walking
15.S Hogg - Good bloke in a pub, but a disaster to face on a Rugby pitch

16.K Owens - Has he learned to be behind the receiver on a kick off yet?
17.C Healy - Old school, our school
18.Z Fagerson
19.D Ryan
20.T Curry - glad he is not starting.  
21. B Youngs - finally slowness at the breakdown just as we get tired.  Perfect
22. C. Slade - related to Henry?  Nice player.  
23. S Maitland -failed kiwi

I look at that list and can't help thinking of the saying that absence makes the heart grow fonder

Paddy Power predicting no DVM, no Russell, and no Hamish Watson in the Lions squad.

alive555 wrote:Paddy Power predicting no DVM, no Russell, and no Hamish Watson in the Lions squad.

Does that mean that they consider Toonie one of the token scots they need to take with them to reach quota?

I didn't think this day would come.....we're discussing Ben Youngs in a Lions thread

formerly known as Sam wrote:Danny Care is an appalling choice, he'll scare nobody. His kicking game is poor and unless you want to run everything in an open game plan he isn't up to international standard. The Boks would be delighted if he's selected. He's past it, Quins upsurge in form is not a reason to bring back in a 34 year old who hasn't played international rugby since 2018(?).

That's a pretty bizarre statement given I know you watch a fair amount of Quins games. Care was dropped by Eddie shortly after a game in which he wouldn't stick to the game plan (the fact that he scored two tries and turned a losing position into an emphatic win apparently didn't cut any mustard), not for lack of form, and I would say his game has improved since then - his kicking is vastly improved and while he may have lost the very top of his acceleration he plays a much more mature game.

He's also keeping a current international scrum half on the bench at Quins... which I think says quite a lot about why he's in contention. The current crop of 9s just aren't sticking their hands up for whatever reason.

lostinwales wrote:

alive555 wrote:Paddy Power predicting no DVM, no Russell, and no Hamish Watson in the Lions squad.

Does that mean that they consider Toonie one of the token scots they need to take with them to reach quota?

Paddy power had gray and fagerson as the other 2 but very outside bets, and i cant see either of them being picked! So if this is true its quite likely will be only Hogg, which will be a record low even for Scotland.

alive555 wrote:Paddy Power predicting no DVM, no Russell, and no Hamish Watson in the Lions squad.

It wouldn't be a surprise if DVM and Russell miss out but I cannot see what selection sees Watson left behind?

What second rows are being chosen ahead of Jonny Gray?

https://m.skybet.com/rugby-union/british---irish-lions-tour/event/25972355
26 man squad - not sure what the split will be 20F 16B?

Adam Beard better odds than Gray! take of that what you like. I think the emergence of a brilliant season by Beirne both as a lock and BSF put paid to Grays chances, personally speaking I think he's done enough both for Exeter/Scotland to be on the plane.

1 Maro Itoje 1/10
2 Tadhg Furlong 1/10
3 Alun Wyn Jones 1/8
4 James Ryan 1/7
5 Ken Owens 1/7
6 Kyle Sinckler 1/7
7 Hamish Watson 1/5
8 Tadhg Beirne 1/5
9 Taulupe Faletau 1/5
10 Wyn Jones 1/5
11 Tom Curry 2/9
12 Justin Tipuric 1/4
13 Cj Stander 1/3
14 Mako Vunipola 1/3
15 Jamie George 2/5
16 Josh Navidi 4/7
17 Luke Cowan-Dickie 4/7
18 Iain Henderson 4/6
19 Rob Herring 4/6
20 Cian Healy 8/11
21 Andrew Porter 10/11
22 Zander Fagerson 10/11
23 Billy Vunipola 1/1
24 Sam Underhill 1/1
25 Sam Simmonds 11/10
26 Adam Beard 11/8
27 Ronan Kelleher 6/4
28 Rory Sutherland 6/4
29 Tomas Francis 6/4
30 Jonny Gray 13/8
31 David Kilcoyne 2/1
32 Ellis Genge 2/1

Soul Requiem wrote:

alive555 wrote:Paddy Power predicting no DVM, no Russell, and no Hamish Watson in the Lions squad.

It wouldn't be a surprise if DVM and Russell miss out but I cannot see what selection sees Watson left behind?

What second rows are being chosen ahead of Jonny Gray?

AWJ, Itoje, Ryan, Beirne, maybe Henderson?

Soul Requiem wrote:

alive555 wrote:Paddy Power predicting no DVM, no Russell, and no Hamish Watson in the Lions squad.

It wouldn't be a surprise if DVM and Russell miss out but I cannot see what selection sees Watson left behind?

What second rows are being chosen ahead of Jonny Gray?

Agree, i just cant see how he can not be selected.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

alive555 wrote:Paddy Power predicting no DVM, no Russell, and no Hamish Watson in the Lions squad.

It wouldn't be a surprise if DVM and Russell miss out but I cannot see what selection sees Watson left behind?

What second rows are being chosen ahead of Jonny Gray?

Agree, i just cant see how he can not be selected.

If true, I guess it means Underhill could be on the plane.

How much rugby has Watson played elsewhere in the back row? The only thing I can think of that might count against him is versatility, but I genuinely don't know if he's played 6 or 8.

N.B. I'm just playing devil's advocate!

Is there any difference between 6 and 7 these days? Hell even 8...

One of Biggar, Sexton, Farrell and Russell will likely miss selection.

Six months ago, it looked like Biggar but he might well be first on the list now. If Gatland wants a consistent flyhalf style, you can see why Russell could miss out. Then again, it would seem prudent to have an option like Russell available, so it's probably one of the national captains.

Quite a few England captains have missed out on Lions tours before (de Glanville, Borthwick and Robshaw come to mind), you have to go back to Michael Bradley in 1993 for an Irish example.

Rugby Fan wrote:Quite a few England captains have missed out on Lions tours before (de Glanville, Borthwick and Robshaw come to mind), you have to go back to Michael Bradley in 1993 for an Irish example.

And, famously, Carling and Hartley. It's almost a tradition. IN fact, when was the last time an incumbent English captain travelled?

The one who bucks the trend is Johnno, but that's because Geech made him Lions captain first. On that basis, Itoje might be feeling good about his career prospects...

Poorfour wrote:... Carling and Hartley...

Forgot about Hartley, as I confused his non-selection in 2017 with his red card four years previously. Will Carling was at least selected in 1989 but pulled out through injury. he did tour in 1993, though, at which time the fuss about him was over whether he should have been named Lions captain. Geech apparently sounded him out for 1997, and he felt he couldn't do it justice. By all accounts Geech took that as a snub, and Carling often regrets that he didn't better explain his choice at the time.

I remember it being reported at the time as Carling being in a huff because he'd been told he wouldn't be captain.

I can't picture Will Carling bumping off Os du Randt....

Squidge Rugby did a very detailed video on YouTube breaking down precisely what Harris was so important to Scotland conceding fewer tries than any other nation over the past 2 years. Don't get me wrong, nobody enjoyed making fun of him more than me when he first came on the scene for his 'boiled kale' lack of excitement persona, but goddamn if he isn't a very effective test centre.

Very narked that North got injured though. Must bring Slade and maybe even Huw Jones into the conversation.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How much rugby has Watson played elsewhere in the back row? The only thing I can think of that might count against him is versatility, but I genuinely don't know if he's played 6 or 8.

N.B. I'm just playing devil's advocate!

I think he could play 8 as he is similar to Naividi, but I doubt Watson will be required to play these seeing he's the standout player at open-side.

Some of these bookies' odds seem absolutely barking to me.
Feels like they're trying to make a market for themselves with the pricing.

For one, I have never expected Jonny Gray to travel. Other alternatives too strong in the position and also some too achingly fashionable to ignore.

The more you think about each selection the more you realise its pointless trying to predict it without knowing how Gatland wants to play. Take this article for example, which makes the point that if Gatland wants punchy wingers as first phase receivers to take the pressure off the centres, then the likes of VdM would be an understandable choice:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/why-south-african-born-duhan-van-der-merwe-is-a-deeply-compelling-selection-for-the-british-irish-lions-tour/

But who knows if any of that is compatible with what the coach wants?

George Carlin wrote:Some of these bookies' odds seem absolutely barking to me.
Feels like they're trying to make a market for themselves with the pricing.

For one, I have never expected Jonny Gray to travel. Other alternatives too strong in the position and also some too achingly fashionable to ignore.

The more you think about each selection the more you realise its pointless trying to predict it without knowing how Gatland wants to play. Take this article for example, which makes the point that if Gatland wants punchy wingers as first phase receivers to take the pressure off the centres, then the likes of VdM would be an understandable choice:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/why-south-african-born-duhan-van-der-merwe-is-a-deeply-compelling-selection-for-the-british-irish-lions-tour/

But who knows if any of that is compatible with what the coach wants?

Great article

And we forgot just how good DvdM was in the ANC, you can see Toonie strategy of using wingers who like to come looking for work inside Darcy Graham and Duan both like to come inside, Gats could use DvdM as an hybrid crash ball centre/wing

I can see the benefit of using aggressive wings like Sanjay and DvdM, especially if they go for Biggar/Sexton at 10

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:How much rugby has Watson played elsewhere in the back row? The only thing I can think of that might count against him is versatility, but I genuinely don't know if he's played 6 or 8.

N.B. I'm just playing devil's advocate!

I think he could play 8 as he is similar to Navidi, but I doubt Watson will be required to play these seeing he's the standout player at open-side.

I think the issue is that he isn't. I would certainly have Watson in my XV, but with Tipuric and Curry, there is incredible strength at 7, so you couldn't call him a standout.

Gatland and his coaches will pick someone which people will think is odd. The thing is we rarely get the true reasons why x is picked and y isn't so no doubt we'll be guessing, pulling our hair out and genuinely puzzled. And then we'll try to fill in the blanks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland and his coaches will pick someone which people will think is odd.

Would Elliot Daly be odd? While he is hardly in any pundit squad selections, there's also a sense that Gatland's bet on him four years ago paid off, and he might be willing to trust him again. Daly's penalty was a key score in New Zealand, and altitude ought to give him more range.

I suspect the extent to which we think someone is a shock is going to be directly linked to who seems to have missed out.

Hadleigh Parkes would be odd. I could see him going for that. Can you imagine the sh** that would cause?! And right so.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland and his coaches will pick someone which people will think is odd.

Would Elliot Daly be odd? While he is hardly in any pundit squad selections, there's also a sense that Gatland's bet on him four years ago paid off, and he might be willing to trust him again. Daly's penalty was a key score in New Zealand, and altitude ought to give him more range.

I suspect the extent to which we think someone is a shock is going to be directly linked to who seems to have missed out.

Well I was surprised a touch he went as a wingers last time. There's a long list better than him that are English. As a full back...lol. his fans seem to be back considering him at outside centre. For me totally unproven there and likely a liability in defence for what he was at wasps.

The Oracle wrote:Hadleigh Parkes would be odd.  I could see him going for that.  Can you imagine the sh** that would cause?!  And right so.

Not a great player. Would he be the consideration like the discussion on the England thread with devoto? Someone to enact the plan? I can't talk myself around with that one if he goes, limited player.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland and his coaches will pick someone which people will think is odd.

Would Elliot Daly be odd? While he is hardly in any pundit squad selections, there's also a sense that Gatland's bet on him four years ago paid off, and he might be willing to trust him again. Daly's penalty was a key score in New Zealand, and altitude ought to give him more range.

I suspect the extent to which we think someone is a shock is going to be directly linked to who seems to have missed out.

He's so far out of form it would be an odd call, especially at fullback. As a winger maybe but there's so many good wingers around at the minute. I don't think we'll be able to out kick the Boks either we'll need to score tries.

If Gatland wanted a cannon of a boot that could do long range kicking from a fullback actually in form then his coaches watching Freddie Steward tonight could point him in the right direction. The physicality of the Boks wouldn't be an issue but that would be an outrageous bolter, maybe for the next tour.