RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-diversity-and-inclusion-advisory-group-formed

Think this probably deserves it's own topic given it's something a few people have banged on about for years. Finally the RFU have given the go ahead to have a look at who is perhaps not able or even wanting to play the game. Although it's changed ever so slightly there is still the overwhelming thought that Rugby Union in England is about the rich, posh kids who in turn are more likely to be white. How many people miss out on rugby and vice versa the talent lost to clubs because they happen to go to the wrong school etc. It's changed slightly with some league or more pre-league converts e.g. Ford and Farrell, Burrell, Tomkins and some more northern voices from league strongholds. Would be great to see a conveyor belt of some of that talent and guys like Sinckler who only picked up rugby later being given more options earlier.

Ugo Monye has been picked as the chair with the remaining members made up as so:

Group members also include:

· Sue Anstiss MBE – CEO of Fearless Women, trustee of the Women’s Sport Trust and co-founder of the Women’s Sport Collective.

· James Bailey – ex-England Sevens player, England Women Sevens head coach and current RPA D&I advisor and Rugby Sevens consultant.

· Nigel Boatswain – over 20 years at Apple, including time as the executive sponsor for ‘Black at Apple’, its D&I programme. Trustee at the Dame Kelly Holmes Trust and external project board for Sport England D&I focused 2021 Code for Sports Governance.

· Josh Brekenfeld – London Scottish board and executive committee member and director of global development at Aspen.

· Gill Burns MBE – ex-England Captain, Rugby World Cup winner and Lancashire RFU President 2019-21.

· Laura Kapo – player and chairwoman at Richmond Women.

'The group will provide insights to shape plans as well as challenge the RFU on its progress in delivering on its diversity and inclusion goals.

Former England player and D&I advisory group chair, Ugo Monye, said: “The RFU has made diversity and inclusion a core priority with clear plans being worked on that should make a substantive difference to the game.

“It’s really important that we get this right so that the anyone, from anywhere, feels rugby is a game for them. There is a wealth of experience in the advisory group and we’re all pleased to be able to contribute in driving an important agenda within the sport.”

Bill Sweeney, RFU CEO, said: “To be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge, experience and expertise in this group will be invaluable to us as we embark on plans to increase diversity in our sport and ensure it is open and inclusive to all. Consulting with others outside our organisation will provide us with different perspectives and help us to ensure that our plans are robust, meaningful, and result in tangible action.”

Within each of these four areas, the RFU is committed to better understanding where it is today compared to the wider population in terms of demographic, behavioural and attitudinal data and insight, establishing what it wants to change and how it will achieve it. Priorities include raising awareness, educating a wide range of stakeholders and delivering critical interventions alongside refreshed policies and guidance and ultimately monitoring progress, and adapting plans based on outcomes and updated insight. Currently the priority areas for action are ethnicity, gender, socio-economic status, sexual orientation and age. '


England and the clubs have some great players coming through but it could be even stronger and tapping into some working class environments etc can only be a good thing in my eyes for healthy grass roots participation and the number of supporters.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:What am i inventing?

7.5 the irony is you are the only one who doesnt see it......

You're inventing a reason for England to be kneeling. We know the reasons, anything else is invented.

You're really not grasping this are you.

Completely grasp it Soul. We know why they are kneeling. we don't need to invent a reason to be angry at it. Everyone here professes to support those aims. Why the anger then? Why are people continually bringing up BLM, it has nothing to do with them.

Rugby Fan wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:...No other organisation has jumped on the back of things like "kick it out" so I do not think it would be an issue, why not carry on with the kick it out stance ?...

Kick it Out supports the players taking a knee

https://twitter.com/kickitout/status/1404057220350889985

Yes, I bet it does, but that STILL DOES NOT take away the stigma of the Black Lives Matter being associated with it and that's what people are against. I am for taking the knee, I just understand why others are not, and I do not think they are racist either.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Completely grasp it Soul. We know why they are kneeling. we don't need to invent a reason to be angry at it. Everyone here professes to support those aims. Why the anger then? Why are people continually bringing up BLM, it has nothing to do with them.

Nobody has invented a reason. The reason is plain and simple, people do not want to support a gesture that a movement they are against has adopted. Why are you not getting this ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Completely grasp it Soul. We know why they are kneeling. we don't need to invent a reason to be angry at it. Everyone here professes to support those aims. Why the anger then? Why are people continually bringing up BLM, it has nothing to do with them.

Nobody has invented a reason. The reason is plain and simple, people do not want to support a gesture that a movement they are against has adopted. Why are you not getting this ?

There are still a few comments on this thread doing just that though LD. If we can all agree that its nothing to do with the political party BLM we're all good and can continue to all support this (not the team for you obviously). Good that people are finally reading and understanding the statements from the team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

WOW!!!!

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

He's not supporting it here though. Keeps complaining on something nothing to do with it. At least you support it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

He's not supporting it here though. Keeps complaining on something nothing to do with it. At least you support it.

Do i support eradicating racism...absolutely...

Do i support the knee...no, because as you are clearly to blind to see, it has very clear links to a political party, with agendas and behaviours that i wholeheartedly disagree with, and no matter what is spoken by Southgate, the fact remains they are performing an act related to that movement. Thats not invented, its fact...

I feel sorry that you are blinded by all of this, that you cant see it...maybe you will see it someday, but judging by your responses on here, that clearly isn't going to happen.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

This is very true. There's a word for someone who dictates what others can and cannot do, what they can and cannot think.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

He's not supporting it here though. Keeps complaining on something nothing to do with it. At least you support it.

Do i support eradicating racism...absolutely...

Do i support the knee...no, because as you are clearly to blind to see, it has very clear links to a political party, with agendas and behaviours that i wholeheartedly disagree with, and no matter what is spoken by Southgate, the fact remains they are performing an act related to that movement. Thats not invented, its fact...

I feel sorry that you are blinded by all of this, that you cant see it...maybe you will see it someday, but judging by your responses on here, that clearly isn't going to happen.

Its not linked to the blm. Read the statements. Think you should bow out if you're just going to ignore the reasons for kneeling.

Soul Requiem wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

This is very true. There's a word for someone who dictates what others can and cannot do, what they can and cannot think.

I'm not dictating that racists can't boo people kneeling

Before the statements from England and Southgate were made you could try to argue that it possibly stood for support to the blm. Id have disagreed then but it would be more opinion. Now we know why definitively it just doesn't have any basis in fact.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Completely grasp it Soul. We know why they are kneeling. we don't need to invent a reason to be angry at it. Everyone here professes to support those aims. Why the anger then? Why are people continually bringing up BLM, it has nothing to do with them.

Nobody has invented a reason. The reason is plain and simple, people do not want to support a gesture that a movement they are against has adopted. Why are you not getting this ?

There are still a few comments on this thread doing just that though LD. If we can all agree that its nothing to do with the political party BLM we're all good and can continue to all support this (not the team for you obviously). Good that people are finally reading and understanding the statements from the team.

But it is associated with BLM, it does not matter one jot that you keep saying it isn't. You see it's people like you who are the problem, you do not take anybody else's points of view on board and then you cause a divide. You need to stop being so arrogant, what you are saying is beggars belief.

PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.

You need to learn the meaning of the following words, empathy and understanding. My best mate, a man I have grown up with since I was a baby, he is of Pakistani origin, his father came to my town as a child with his Pakistani farther and he lived in the same street as my farther, they then became friends, he is like family to me, and he does not support BLM and he feels that the taking the knee gesture is hypocritical as it is associated with BLM.

Are you going to suggest he is racist ? You are worse than the people you are having a go at.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

I'm not dictating that racists can't boo people kneeling

Before the statements from England and Southgate were made you could try to argue that it possibly stood for support to the blm. Id have disagreed then but it would be more opinion. Now we know why definitively it just doesn't have any basis in fact.

You're doing what you always do when anyone disagrees with you and that's trying to dictate what their opinion should be. Everyone else on here is expressing an opinion and we are well aware that they are just opinions, you however are proclaiming yours to be fact. You'll respond to this comment doing exactly that.

If he was booing people taking the knee in a stance for anti racism then yes I'd suggest he is racist.

I'm not taking any thoughts about this being about blm on board because that's not up for discussion. We know why they are kneeling they've said.

I don't know your thoughts on blm LD. If you think that this act is associated with blm why do you support it?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask you 2 whether you feel that a group to look at diversity and inclusion is needed or do you fall on the side of the cream will rise to the top no matter what?  Kind of like our Prime Ministers view that children of wealthy parents get private tuition thanks to the hard work of their parents. Harder you work the more good outcomes you get. Always. We know that.

I have worked damn hard to get where I am today, and as a result I employ a number of people who now earn a very good wage, I should not be ashamed of that.

Also 7.5, would you care to explain your comments in the quote above ?

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

I'm not dictating that racists can't boo people kneeling

Before the statements from England and Southgate were made you could try to argue that it possibly stood for support to the blm. Id have disagreed then but it would be more opinion. Now we know why definitively it just doesn't have any basis in fact.

You're doing what you always do when anyone disagrees with you and that's trying to dictate what their opinion should be. Everyone else on here is expressing an opinion and we are well aware that they are just opinions, you however are proclaiming yours to be fact. You'll respond to this comment doing exactly that.

You can express your opinion. But then there are facts we know why they're kneeling and it isn't for BLM the political party.

LordDowlais wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask you 2 whether you feel that a group to look at diversity and inclusion is needed or do you fall on the side of the cream will rise to the top no matter what?  Kind of like our Prime Ministers view that children of wealthy parents get private tuition thanks to the hard work of their parents. Harder you work the more good outcomes you get. Always. We know that.

I have worked damn hard to get where I am today, and as a result I employ a number of people who now earn a very good wage, I should not be ashamed of that.

Also 7.5, would you care to explain your comments in the quote above ?

Its a comment linked to the Prime Minster where he inferred that hard work equals money. That's just not true but reinforces the myth that poor people are really taking money through taxes etc and should simply work harder. I'm sure we all know rich lazy lucky gits and poorer people who graft for a reward that doesn't reflect that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

He's not supporting it here though. Keeps complaining on something nothing to do with it. At least you support it.

Do i support eradicating racism...absolutely...

Do i support the knee...no, because as you are clearly to blind to see, it has very clear links to a political party, with agendas and behaviours that i wholeheartedly disagree with, and no matter what is spoken by Southgate, the fact remains they are performing an act related to that movement. Thats not invented, its fact...

I feel sorry that you are blinded by all of this, that you cant see it...maybe you will see it someday, but judging by your responses on here, that clearly isn't going to happen.

Its not linked to the blm. Read the statements. Think you should bow out if you're just going to ignore the reasons for kneeling.

And you are ignoring the reasons for NOT kneeling. Clearly you only believe your opinion is correct, and simply disregard anyone else.
You can say it a millions times..."the statement from the team say...." but you are also blind to the link with politics...regardless.

And dont be disrespectful telling me to bow out, because you are failing to enforce your opinion on me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If he was booing people taking the knee in a stance for anti racism then yes I'd suggest he is racist.

I'm not taking any thoughts about this being about blm on board because that's not up for discussion. We know why they are kneeling they've said.

I don't know your thoughts on blm LD. If you think that this act is associated with blm why do you support it?

I support BLM, I think they have a part to play in our society, especially in the USA. But I understand why other are against it, I have taken it on board, I have understood, I have empathised with people, and most importantly, I have not accused them of being racist.

You need a long, long lesson on this, as your behaviour on this topic is not that of a person who is somebody who you are trying to tell us you are.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

I'm not dictating that racists can't boo people kneeling

Before the statements from England and Southgate were made you could try to argue that it possibly stood for support to the blm. Id have disagreed then but it would be more opinion. Now we know why definitively it just doesn't have any basis in fact.

You're doing what you always do when anyone disagrees with you and that's trying to dictate what their opinion should be. Everyone else on here is expressing an opinion and we are well aware that they are just opinions, you however are proclaiming yours to be fact. You'll respond to this comment doing exactly that.

You can express your opinion. But then there are facts we know why they're kneeling and it isn't for BLM the political party.

Again you're not grasping the argument. We know why the England football team are kneeling but we also know what that action stands for in another context. You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

He's not supporting it here though. Keeps complaining on something nothing to do with it. At least you support it.

Do i support eradicating racism...absolutely...

Do i support the knee...no, because as you are clearly to blind to see, it has very clear links to a political party, with agendas and behaviours that i wholeheartedly disagree with, and no matter what is spoken by Southgate, the fact remains they are performing an act related to that movement. Thats not invented, its fact...

I feel sorry that you are blinded by all of this, that you cant see it...maybe you will see it someday, but judging by your responses on here, that clearly isn't going to happen.

Its not linked to the blm. Read the statements. Think you should bow out if you're just going to ignore the reasons for kneeling.

And you are ignoring the reasons for NOT kneeling. Clearly you only believe your opinion is correct, and simply disregard anyone else.
You can say it a millions times..."the statement from the team say...." but you are also blind to the link with politics...regardless.

And dont be disrespectful telling me to bow out, because you are failing to enforce your opinion on me.

The only reason I've seen here against kneeling is that its linked to BLM. We know thats not true. And you yourself said you were bowing out, just suggesting that it you're going to invent a reason for the team kneeling we're not going to get anywhere.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:If he was booing people taking the knee in a stance for anti racism then yes I'd suggest he is racist.

I'm not taking any thoughts about this being about blm on board because that's not up for discussion. We know why they are kneeling they've said.

I don't know your thoughts on blm LD. If you think that this act is associated with blm why do you support it?

I support BLM, I think they have a part to play in our society, especially in the USA. But I understand why other are against it, I have taken it on board, I have understood, I have empathised  with people, and most importantly, I have not accused them of being racist.

You need a long, long lesson on this, as your behaviour on this topic is not that of a person who is somebody who you are trying to tell us you are.

Who would give me this lesson. Try to be open with listening, don't interpreting me discounting people here as we know definitively the reason for kneeling as not listening.

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

I'm not dictating that racists can't boo people kneeling

Before the statements from England and Southgate were made you could try to argue that it possibly stood for support to the blm. Id have disagreed then but it would be more opinion. Now we know why definitively it just doesn't have any basis in fact.

You're doing what you always do when anyone disagrees with you and that's trying to dictate what their opinion should be. Everyone else on here is expressing an opinion and we are well aware that they are just opinions, you however are proclaiming yours to be fact. You'll respond to this comment doing exactly that.

You can express your opinion. But then there are facts we know why they're kneeling and it isn't for BLM the political party.

Again you're not grasping the argument. We know why the England football team are kneeling but we also know what that action stands for in another context. You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

We're getting a little way there though. Most of you have now said you know the reason they kneel. 1 or 2 have said in a different context it may be an issue, but not in this context. 1 has said he supports both kneeling and the BLM political groups aims. Small steps.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

He's not supporting it here though. Keeps complaining on something nothing to do with it. At least you support it.

Do i support eradicating racism...absolutely...

Do i support the knee...no, because as you are clearly to blind to see, it has very clear links to a political party, with agendas and behaviours that i wholeheartedly disagree with, and no matter what is spoken by Southgate, the fact remains they are performing an act related to that movement. Thats not invented, its fact...

I feel sorry that you are blinded by all of this, that you cant see it...maybe you will see it someday, but judging by your responses on here, that clearly isn't going to happen.

Its not linked to the blm. Read the statements. Think you should bow out if you're just going to ignore the reasons for kneeling.

And you are ignoring the reasons for NOT kneeling. Clearly you only believe your opinion is correct, and simply disregard anyone else.
You can say it a millions times..."the statement from the team say...." but you are also blind to the link with politics...regardless.

And dont be disrespectful telling me to bow out, because you are failing to enforce your opinion on me.

The only reason I've seen here against kneeling is that its linked to BLM. We know thats not true. And you yourself said you were bowing out, just suggesting that it you're going to invent a reason for the team kneeling we're not going to get anywhere.

Your right, after that response we really are going round in circles so time to bow out.

The sad thing is, the other guys are right, its blinkered individuals like yourself that are unable / refuse to see all opinions and enforce your opinion on others that is the problem in todays society...

Enjoy your debate guys, but your wasting your time with 7.5

This kneeling nonsense will soon end, thankfully. England are one of the few sides at the Euros doing it, Scotland will only be doing it to placate England, not at their other games.

Not all PL clubs will be doing it next season, either.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

I can assure you ....that isnt going to happen.  

Shame. The more people who can support anti racism the better in my view.

He does support anti racism. It's people like you who are the problem.

He's not supporting it here though. Keeps complaining on something nothing to do with it. At least you support it.

Do i support eradicating racism...absolutely...

Do i support the knee...no, because as you are clearly to blind to see, it has very clear links to a political party, with agendas and behaviours that i wholeheartedly disagree with, and no matter what is spoken by Southgate, the fact remains they are performing an act related to that movement. Thats not invented, its fact...

I feel sorry that you are blinded by all of this, that you cant see it...maybe you will see it someday, but judging by your responses on here, that clearly isn't going to happen.

Its not linked to the blm. Read the statements. Think you should bow out if you're just going to ignore the reasons for kneeling.

And you are ignoring the reasons for NOT kneeling. Clearly you only believe your opinion is correct, and simply disregard anyone else.
You can say it a millions times..."the statement from the team say...." but you are also blind to the link with politics...regardless.

And dont be disrespectful telling me to bow out, because you are failing to enforce your opinion on me.

The only reason I've seen here against kneeling is that its linked to BLM. We know thats not true. And you yourself said you were bowing out, just suggesting that it you're going to invent a reason for the team kneeling we're not going to get anywhere.

Your right, after that response we really are going round in circles so time to bow out.

The sad thing is, the other guys are right, its blinkered individuals like yourself that are unable / refuse to see all opinions and enforce your opinion on others that is the problem in todays society...

Enjoy your debate guys, but your wasting your time with 7.5

There's no debate we know the reason they're kneeling. Tough getting this through to you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask you 2 whether you feel that a group to look at diversity and inclusion is needed or do you fall on the side of the cream will rise to the top no matter what?  Kind of like our Prime Ministers view that children of wealthy parents get private tuition thanks to the hard work of their parents. Harder you work the more good outcomes you get. Always. We know that.

I have worked damn hard to get where I am today, and as a result I employ a number of people who now earn a very good wage, I should not be ashamed of that.

Also 7.5, would you care to explain your comments in the quote above ?

Its a comment linked to the Prime Minster where he inferred that hard work equals money. That's just not true but reinforces the myth that poor people are really taking money through taxes etc and should simply work harder. I'm sure we all know rich lazy lucky gits and poorer people who graft for a reward that doesn't reflect that.

I agree with him, hard work does mean more money. Myself and my family built our business from the ground up, we all made sacrifices, we all gave our day jobs up to do it, there have been some dark times, and some scary times, but we eventually got there, and we are now in a place where things are a lot better, but it took hard work, a lot of it.

It is not a myth that anybody should work harder, I know plenty of people who "play" the system, then sit there and complain about everything that has gone against them. There is one man in my club that I have had words with, he has never paid a bean towards his council house, then when his kids grew up and flew the nest, he wanted my support when the council wanted to move him out of his three bedroom house and put him and his wife into a two bedroom bungalow, they needed his house for a new young family.

People generally do not get rich by being lazy.

This again is another generalisation by you, that some you up perfectly, again being outraged by the slightest thing on behalf of everyone, believing what you say is gospel, not taking anybody else's points of view on board, then ramming them down our throats on here. Shameful.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We're getting a little way there though. Most of you have now said you know the reason they kneel. 1 or 2 have said in a different context it may be an issue, but not in this context. 1 has said he supports both kneeling and the BLM political groups aims.  Small steps.

Your arrogance is astounding.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask you 2 whether you feel that a group to look at diversity and inclusion is needed or do you fall on the side of the cream will rise to the top no matter what?  Kind of like our Prime Ministers view that children of wealthy parents get private tuition thanks to the hard work of their parents. Harder you work the more good outcomes you get. Always. We know that.

I have worked damn hard to get where I am today, and as a result I employ a number of people who now earn a very good wage, I should not be ashamed of that.

Also 7.5, would you care to explain your comments in the quote above ?

Its a comment linked to the Prime Minster where he inferred that hard work equals money. That's just not true but reinforces the myth that poor people are really taking money through taxes etc and should simply work harder. I'm sure we all know rich lazy lucky gits and poorer people who graft for a reward that doesn't reflect that.

I agree with him, hard work does mean more money. Myself and my family built our business from the ground up, we all made sacrifices, we all gave our day jobs up to do it, there have been some dark times, and some scary times, but we eventually got there, and we are now in a place where things are a lot better, but it took hard work, a lot of it.

It is not a myth that anybody should work harder, I know plenty of people who "play" the system, then sit there and complain about everything that has gone against them. There is one man in my club that I have had words with, he has never paid a bean towards his council house, then when his kids grew up and flew the nest, he wanted my support when the council wanted to move him out of his three bedroom house and put him and his wife into a two bedroom bungalow, they needed his house for a new young family.

People generally do not get rich by being lazy.

This again is another generalisation by you, that some you up perfectly, again being outraged by the slightest thing on behalf of everyone, believing what you say is gospel, not taking anybody else's points of view on board, then ramming them down our throats on here. Shameful.

I know plenty of hard working poor people LD, so no hard work does not equal money.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

My attitude isn't going to make people racist. And no I don't think I'm in a place to dismiss kneeling as a valid mechanism. They could do anything and the same media and guys like Lawrence Fox would have the same issues, They'd talk it down and say its they guys highlighting racism that are the real issue etc etc. It's an old game but one which seemingly works a treat.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know plenty of hard working poor people LD, so no hard work does not equal money.

I am proof that says otherwise.

So I will use an angle that you are coming from, I am right, and you are wrong, end of.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

My attitude isn't going to make people racist. And no I don't think I'm in a place to dismiss kneeling as a valid mechanism. They could do anything and the same media and guys like Lawrence Fox would have the same issues, They'd talk it down and say its they guys highlighting racism that are the real issue etc etc. It's an old game but one which seemingly works a treat.

Read the post again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

My attitude isn't going to make people racist. And no I don't think I'm in a place to dismiss kneeling as a valid mechanism. They could do anything and the same media and guys like Lawrence Fox would have the same issues, They'd talk it down and say its they guys highlighting racism that are the real issue etc etc. It's an old game but one which seemingly works a treat.

So, if the England team said they were going to do the nazi salute and say it is against racism, would you still support it ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know plenty of hard working poor people LD, so no hard work does not equal money.

I am proof that says otherwise.

So I will use an angle that you are coming from, I am right, and you are wrong, end of.

I get you. Nurses just need to work harder. They're lazy in your view. I tend to think that's not the case. You do you.

Doctor Grey mentioned earlier that gestures can be adopted by any groups for their own ends.

As a case in point, Patriotic Alternative went to Wembley and called on people to boo anyone taking a knee. Their message is "Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!"

https://twitter.com/PatAltEast/status/1404020668975431682

They are a far right nationalist group, set up by a former leading BNP organiser.

Does that fact that booing anyone kneeling has now been adopted, and is being promoted, by a racist hate group mean that everyone who objects to kneeling should be considered to share their views?

I wouldn't think so but I also don't think Gareth Southgate is a marxist.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

My attitude isn't going to make people racist. And no I don't think I'm in a place to dismiss kneeling as a valid mechanism. They could do anything and the same media and guys like Lawrence Fox would have the same issues, They'd talk it down and say its they guys highlighting racism that are the real issue etc etc. It's an old game but one which seemingly works a treat.

So, if the England team said they were going to do the nazi salute and say it is against racism, would you still support it ?

Godwin's law.

I can't envisage a way that they would do that while claiming to be against racism. Not the most tolerant bunch of right wingers the Nazis. Why would they be doing a Nazi salute?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know plenty of hard working poor people LD, so no hard work does not equal money.

I am proof that says otherwise.

So I will use an angle that you are coming from, I am right, and you are wrong, end of.

I get you. Nurses just need to work harder. They're lazy in your view. I tend to think that's not the case. You do you.

Nurses get paid a good wage. Being rich is not all about the money, my wife works in the NHS, she has worked there since she left school, work hard and you will reap the rewards for working hard, whether you work as a nurse, or a mechanic or a carpet fitter.

When you buy your new car, go on holiday, pass gifts around on Christmas day, all sit down together for a meal, the hours you have put in have paid for it, you are reaping the rewards, you can do a little extra, work overtime, get a second job, and the rewards will be a little better.

Again, you are doing your accusation thing again, and accusing me of calling nurses lazy, you really are a stand up guy aren't you ? So in all this debate, all you have done is embarrass yourself and accuse others of all sorts.

You are no better than what you claim to stand against.

Rugby Fan wrote:Doctor Grey mentioned earlier that gestures can be adopted by any groups for their own ends.

As a case in point, Patriotic Alternative went to Wembley and called on people to boo anyone taking a knee. Their message is "Stop kneeling for migrants & their descendants! Stop feeding their victimhood complex!"

https://twitter.com/PatAltEast/status/1404020668975431682

They are a far right nationalist group, set up by a former leading BNP organiser.

Does that fact that booing anyone kneeling has now been adopted, and is being promoted, by a racist hate group mean that everyone who objects to kneeling should be considered to share their views?

I wouldn't think so but I also don't think Gareth Southgate is a marxist.

Not all people who boo are this.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

My attitude isn't going to make people racist. And no I don't think I'm in a place to dismiss kneeling as a valid mechanism. They could do anything and the same media and guys like Lawrence Fox would have the same issues, They'd talk it down and say its they guys highlighting racism that are the real issue etc etc. It's an old game but one which seemingly works a treat.

So, if the England team said they were going to do the nazi salute and say it is against racism, would you still support it ?

Godwin's law.

I can't envisage a way that they would do that while claiming to be against racism. Not the most tolerant bunch of right wingers the Nazis. Why would they be doing a Nazi salute?

Just used it as an example, thats all.

If Gareth Southgate came out and said it was to stand against racism, would you support it ?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know plenty of hard working poor people LD, so no hard work does not equal money.

I am proof that says otherwise.

So I will use an angle that you are coming from, I am right, and you are wrong, end of.

I get you. Nurses just need to work harder. They're lazy in your view. I tend to think that's not the case. You do you.

Nurses get paid a good wage. Being rich is not all about the money, my wife works in the NHS, she has worked there since she left school, work hard and you will reap the rewards for working hard, whether you work as a nurse, or a mechanic or a carpet fitter.

When you buy your new car, go on holiday, pass gifts around on Christmas day, all sit down together for a meal, the hours you have put in have paid for it, you are reaping the rewards, you can do a little extra, work overtime, get a second job, and the rewards will be a little better.

Again, you are doing your accusation thing again, and accusing me of calling nurses lazy, you really are a stand up guy aren't you ? So in all this debate, all you have done is embarrass yourself and accuse others of all sorts.

You are no better than what you claim to stand against.  

Not a wage I would describe to make you rich. And to be clear the point above being made by the prime minister was about being able to afford private tuition, unlikely on a nurses wage. Perhaps those nurses should just work harder? Do you think it would then be possible for them to become rich? Or do you think there are numerous things in the way to that? Say I'm a nurse on a band 5 salary (agenda for change scale); I'm clearly not working as hard as I can in your opinion, whats my opition to get more money? And bear in mind that there are thousands of other Band 5s who presumably in your eyes could work harder. Whats their best way to the riches?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

My attitude isn't going to make people racist. And no I don't think I'm in a place to dismiss kneeling as a valid mechanism. They could do anything and the same media and guys like Lawrence Fox would have the same issues, They'd talk it down and say its they guys highlighting racism that are the real issue etc etc. It's an old game but one which seemingly works a treat.

So, if the England team said they were going to do the nazi salute and say it is against racism, would you still support it ?

Godwin's law.

I can't envisage a way that they would do that while claiming to be against racism. Not the most tolerant bunch of right wingers the Nazis. Why would they be doing a Nazi salute?

Just used it as an example, thats all.

If Gareth Southgate came out and said it was to stand against racism, would you support it ?

Southgate isn't stupid so I would want journalists to ask why he was using a salute tied to a murderous right ring historical leadership. I can't see how the example you pose would come about. How is doing a Nazi salute anti racist?

What do people think about players such as Wilfried Zaha who now does not want to take the knee any more? He said it's degrading. He's a black footballer. Brentford FC have stopped as they feel they are being used as puppets. Les Ferdinand, director at QPR, has said they've stopped doing it as the meaning has been lost and it's 'now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge'.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not a wage I would describe to make you rich. And to be clear the point above being made by the prime minister was about being able to afford private tuition, unlikely on a nurses wage. Perhaps those nurses should just work harder? Do you think it would then be possible for them to become rich? Or do you think there are numerous things in the way to that? Say I'm a nurse on a band 5 salary (agenda for change scale); I'm clearly not working as hard as I can in your opinion, whats my opition to get more money? And bear in mind that there are thousands of other Band 5s who presumably in your eyes could work harder. Whats their best way to the riches?

Firstly Boris Johnson never said work harder and you will be rich. Secondly Nurses salaries do not start at band 5, that band is where the domestics are.

He defended well to do people who can afford private tuition.

He said you can pay for private tuition if you work harder, I have done this for my daughters, it cost me £15 an hour, for one hour, once a week, to send my daughters to a maths tutor. I wanted them to be in the best place before they went to comprehensive school.

I was able to do this because of the hard work I put in. It's the reason why my staff can do it as well. My staff all work very hard, and they get a good wage, and it is because of the struggles I put in along with my farther and brother many years ago to get where we are now, and I will not apologise for it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So in a completely different context you may have an issue, but not this one. 'You'll understand one day that your attitudes are doing more harm than good.' - what harm am I causing people? A few racists who like to boo anti racism stances get called a racist. boo hoo.

If a symbol has an alternative meaning you stop using it.

Do you not realise how counterproductive that last statement is? Your attitudes create resistance and the ultimate goal is to eradicate racism from society not just call it out and feel all high and mighty about it. You are doing absolutely nothing to further that aim with this nonsense.

My attitude isn't going to make people racist. And no I don't think I'm in a place to dismiss kneeling as a valid mechanism. They could do anything and the same media and guys like Lawrence Fox would have the same issues, They'd talk it down and say its they guys highlighting racism that are the real issue etc etc. It's an old game but one which seemingly works a treat.

So, if the England team said they were going to do the nazi salute and say it is against racism, would you still support it ?

Godwin's law.

I can't envisage a way that they would do that while claiming to be against racism. Not the most tolerant bunch of right wingers the Nazis. Why would they be doing a Nazi salute?

Just used it as an example, thats all.

If Gareth Southgate came out and said it was to stand against racism, would you support it ?

Southgate isn't stupid so I would want journalists to ask why he was using a salute tied to a murderous right ring historical leadership. I can't see how the example you pose would come about. How is doing a Nazi salute anti racist?

Why won't you just answer the question ?

Yes or no ?

The Oracle wrote:What do people think about players such as Wilfried Zaha who now does not want to take the knee any more?  He said it's degrading.  He's a black footballer.  Brentford FC have stopped as they feel they are being used as puppets.  Les Ferdinand, director at QPR, has said they've stopped doing it as the meaning has been lost and it's 'now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge'.

This.

7.5 would call them all racist.