Lions Announcement - Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:...

What 2 blunders?
The ref made one questionable error, the LRZ incident, the Biggar crossfield was perfectly ok by the rule book. The ref should have told told the England captain it wasn't a water break and the players shouldn't have been walking back finishing off their water bottle or having a bit of a chat, however the ref should have yellow carded Farrell and definitely Itoje for consistent infringing.
The game was not widely accepted to have been a close game at all, if the ref had stopped the deliberate infringements the game would have been tucked away long before the 60th minute in Wales favour
...

You really are on the wind up. Biggar did nothing wrong by the letter of the law. But it wasn't a drinks break. The referee told Farrell to talk to his team, and then allowed Wales to take the penalty when England were still in the huddle. Wales didn't do anything technically wrong, but the referee f**ked England over good and proper.

They all seem to ignore the clear forward pass for England first try as well. Funny that isn't it ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdtcPXLhUso

Where? No forward pass there. But even if there was there's a world of difference to missing a pass and not knowing the laws/rules.

Every time I watch it, it just looks a forward pass, shoveled forwards.

Hands go backwards from George, hence play on.

But again even if I agreed its a world away from not knowing the laws.

Nope, thats just your opinion, the same as your opinions on the following:-

1. England are the no.1 team in the world
2. Gatland has got the Lions wrong
3. You dismiss games where England lose specifically against Wales
4. AWJ is a rubbish player

To just point out a few. You really are hard work on here.

The point on any pass where the ball moves forward is then an opinion, fair enough. The point on the offcials not knowing the laws/rules for the first 2 tries....well the only other option is they knew and deliberately got them wrong; I don't think thats the case here.
1. Yup. Opinion.
2. Yup. Opinion.
3. Just this one where the offcials didn't know the rules and the 99 all star team.
4. Not sure I've ever read that. I'm sure someone will think that somewhere. Just not either you nor me.

Wales have certainly given England some batterings in the pro era (let's not talk about Wales being on the receiving end though, we put out a third team on all those occasions).

Lets move on from the personal digs guys

I would like to dismiss the game discussed in this article as World Rugby released a statement that Wales should have been awarded the try :-

https://www.606v2.com/t67193-try-or-no-try

https://www.six-nations-guide.co.uk/2018/england-v-wales.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/six-nations-2018-wales-try-vs-england-gareth-anscombe-world-rugby-confirm-mistake-a8208711.html


I want this result dismissed as the ref mad a mistake.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Lets move on from the personal digs guys

Sorry, I posted before I saw this.

If you'd like to fair enough LD. Again that's down to a mistake and there will be plenty in all games from officials and players. As I've stated a couple of times mistakes happen but not knowing the laws or rules is different to me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you'd like to fair enough LD. Again that's down to a mistake and there will be plenty in all games from officials and players. As I've stated a couple of times mistakes happen but not knowing the laws or rules is different to me.

All swings and roundabouts.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you'd like to fair enough LD. Again that's down to a mistake and there will be plenty in all games from officials and players. As I've stated a couple of times mistakes happen but not knowing the laws or rules is different to me.

All swings and roundabouts.

Well its probable true that given enough time you'll end up on the other side of these things but personally I expect international offcials to know the laws which brings it back around to the point im not too hung up about the game earlier in the year because of the circumstances.

So you agree England have been lucky with the officials against Wales in the past, as shown in the link above. So we can now put this one to bed and get back to talking about the Lions, on a Lions topic ?

Cyril wrote:There are quotes from Joel Jutge on the first article I googled from The Independent.

Anyway, flyhalffactory, I seem to get banned any time I disagree with you so let’s agree to disagree and i’ll Discuss this with others.

Compadre
(With respect to the mods and they are doing great in an unforgiving job)
I don't want you getting bans.
I don't want posts deleted because posters are discussing forum topics, we all should be able to post responses to contributions and as long as they are not personally abusive then they shouldn't be deleted or bans giving.
Somebody mentioned the article (not you) as if it was the official governing body statement, just remember this was a European hack who took a conversation and morphed it to something it wasn't, it's done the rounds even arriving on Scottish and Welsh media columns. All some of us have asked is show us the official statement.
The tries were legit (I can't see anything in the rules that state otherwise) according to some refs but also according to some refs (including the best ref in world rugby Nigel Owens) they shouldn't have been allowed even if technically they could be argued otherwise.
Have a good day mate

LordDowlais wrote:So you agree England have been lucky with the officials against Wales in the past, as shown in the link above. So we can now put this one to bed and get back to talking about the Lions, on a Lions topic ?

Of course. Every team gets lucky. I've never said otherwise.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Cyril wrote:There are quotes from Joel Jutge on the first article I googled from The Independent.

Anyway, flyhalffactory, I seem to get banned any time I disagree with you so let’s agree to disagree and i’ll Discuss this with others.

Compadre
(With respect to the mods and they are doing great in an unforgiving job)
I don't want you getting bans.
I don't want posts deleted because posters are discussing forum topics, we all should be able to post responses to contributions and as long as they are not personally abusive then they shouldn't be deleted or bans giving.
Somebody mentioned the article (not you) as if it was the official governing body statement, just remember this was a European hack who took a conversation and morphed it to something it wasn't, it's done the rounds even arriving on Scottish and Welsh media columns. All some of us have asked is show us the official statement.
The tries were legit (I can't see anything in the rules that state otherwise) according to some refs but also according to some refs (including the best ref in world rugby Nigel Owens) they shouldn't have been allowed even if technically they could be argued otherwise.
Have a good day mate

Don't think its fair to say that its a hack twisting conversation. It was a specific interview with Joel Jutge, not just a question in a press conference. If he was being misrepresented, you can bet your bottom dollar that the article in Midi Olympique would have been edited to reflect his actual comments.

Not that it matters, but the only other time I can recall World Rugby officials commenting on a refereeing decision was after the Joubert scrum / penalty call against Scotland in RWC2015, and Jutge was the person making the comments. That was readily accepted, but for some reason no one can believe that the same applies to Gauzere being clueless

LordDowlais wrote:I would like to dismiss the game discussed in this article as World Rugby released a statement that Wales should have been awarded the try :-

https://www.606v2.com/t67193-try-or-no-try

https://www.six-nations-guide.co.uk/2018/england-v-wales.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/six-nations-2018-wales-try-vs-england-gareth-anscombe-world-rugby-confirm-mistake-a8208711.html


I want this result dismissed as the ref mad a mistake.

I forgot about that, swings and roundabouts I guess. I'm not surprised at all to see a French ref involved.

French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

BamBam wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Cyril wrote:There are quotes from Joel Jutge on the first article I googled from The Independent.

Anyway, flyhalffactory, I seem to get banned any time I disagree with you so let’s agree to disagree and i’ll Discuss this with others.

Compadre
(With respect to the mods and they are doing great in an unforgiving job)
I don't want you getting bans.
I don't want posts deleted because posters are discussing forum topics, we all should be able to post responses to contributions and as long as they are not personally abusive then they shouldn't be deleted or bans giving.
Somebody mentioned the article (not you) as if it was the official governing body statement, just remember this was a European hack who took a conversation and morphed it to something it wasn't, it's done the rounds even arriving on Scottish and Welsh media columns. All some of us have asked is show us the official statement.
The tries were legit (I can't see anything in the rules that state otherwise) according to some refs but also according to some refs (including the best ref in world rugby Nigel Owens) they shouldn't have been allowed even if technically they could be argued otherwise.
Have a good day mate

Don't think its fair to say that its a hack twisting conversation. It was a specific interview with Joel Jutge, not just a question in a press conference. If he was being misrepresented, you can bet your bottom dollar that the article in Midi Olympique would have been edited to reflect his actual comments.

Not that it matters, but the only other time I can recall World Rugby officials commenting on a refereeing decision was after the Joubert scrum / penalty call against Scotland in RWC2015, and Jutge was the person making the comments. That was readily accepted, but for some reason no one can believe that the same applies to Gauzere being clueless

Exactly, I don't know what more is required really. World rugby and the actual referee coming out saying they were mistakes is pretty conclusive. An ex-ref suggesting he sees no issues is neither here or there, he has no authority, it's just his opinion.

They were mistakes made, they were publicly admitted....we move on.

George North's last-minute foot in touch in the 2016 Six Nations match, is one moment where luck favoured England. He'd thrown the ball back inside, and I think the Welsh player who caught it would have walked in unopposed. The whistle went instantly for the lineout, and the ball was never touched down, so there was no try to review. I recall thinking the replay showed North got the ball away before his feet went out.

Life could have gone differently for Eddie Jones and England if we'd lost that one.

While we've all got refereeing judgements to complain about, there are fewer where the refereeing protocol goes AWOL. Dan Biggar's penalty is on the same level as Mike Phillips scoring with the wrong ball in 2011. I genuinely can't recall England benefiiting from something like that, though I'd be happy if someone else can remember. The match-changing decisions which have gone our way are the likes of obstructions not called, and Farrell's tackles unpenalized.

Could just scrap the Lions and schedule a few England v Wales games.

Collapse2005 wrote:French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in  NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

Yeah, I think that is nonsense, there is a common perception from SH supporters that NH referees ref us out of the game and the reverse applies to the Nh supporters.

I have not seen any stats giving validation to either opinion.

I think there might be certain individual experiences with a particular referee that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of supporters, but that goes for every team.

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in  NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

Yeah, I think that is nonsense, there is a common perception from SH supporters that NH referees ref us out of the game and the reverse applies to the Nh supporters.

I have not seen any stats giving validation to either opinion.

I think there might be certain individual experiences with a particular referee that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of supporters, but that goes for every team.

Hey Bil, what do you think of Bryce Lawrence as a ref.

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in  NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

Yeah, I think that is nonsense, there is a common perception from SH supporters that NH referees ref us out of the game and the reverse applies to the Nh supporters.

I have not seen any stats giving validation to either opinion.

I think there might be certain individual experiences with a particular referee that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of supporters, but that goes for every team.

Each to their own, I beg to differ.

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in  NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

Yeah, I think that is nonsense, there is a common perception from SH supporters that NH referees ref us out of the game and the reverse applies to the Nh supporters.

I have not seen any stats giving validation to either opinion.

I think there might be certain individual experiences with a particular referee that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of supporters, but that goes for every team.

Hey Bil, what do you think of Bryce Lawrence as a ref.

I have no respect for him. That’s all I have to say about that.

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in  NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

Yeah, I think that is nonsense, there is a common perception from SH supporters that NH referees ref us out of the game and the reverse applies to the Nh supporters.

I have not seen any stats giving validation to either opinion.

I think there might be certain individual experiences with a particular referee that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of supporters, but that goes for every team.

Hey Bil, what do you think of Bryce Lawrence as a ref.

I have no respect for him. That’s all I have to say about that.

I think with refs each country has slightly different interpretations to which they play. Probably the easiest example I can think of is that as a Tigers fan I tend to feel happier with a French ref as they tend to reward a dominant scrum and will bring out a yellow card for a persistent offender. You don't tend to get that with the Anglo-Irish refs, in fact some Pro14 refs offer little reward to the dominant scrum. As it's one of the few areas Tigers haven't fallen apart in recent years it's an area I like to see recognised. I do actually dislike how some of the younger English refs are following the Pro14 way and becoming increasingly lenient at the scrum especially in regards to persistent offenders.

It's not normally bad Vs good reffing though a certain French ref dropped some clangers in a certain 6N game. It's normally down to interpretation which can sometimes lead to frustration. As Old Man says in particular game can be remembered and tar all refs from that country with the same brush sometimes as well.

BamBam wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Cyril wrote:There are quotes from Joel Jutge on the first article I googled from The Independent.

Anyway, flyhalffactory, I seem to get banned any time I disagree with you so let’s agree to disagree and i’ll Discuss this with others.

Compadre
(With respect to the mods and they are doing great in an unforgiving job)
I don't want you getting bans.
I don't want posts deleted because posters are discussing forum topics, we all should be able to post responses to contributions and as long as they are not personally abusive then they shouldn't be deleted or bans giving.
Somebody mentioned the article (not you) as if it was the official governing body statement, just remember this was a European hack who took a conversation and morphed it to something it wasn't, it's done the rounds even arriving on Scottish and Welsh media columns. All some of us have asked is show us the official statement.
The tries were legit (I can't see anything in the rules that state otherwise) according to some refs but also according to some refs (including the best ref in world rugby Nigel Owens) they shouldn't have been allowed even if technically they could be argued otherwise.
Have a good day mate

Don't think its fair to say that its a hack twisting conversation. It was a specific interview with Joel Jutge, not just a question in a press conference. If he was being misrepresented, you can bet your bottom dollar that the article in Midi Olympique would have been edited to reflect his actual comments.

Not that it matters, but the only other time I can recall World Rugby officials commenting on a refereeing decision was after the Joubert scrum / penalty call against Scotland in RWC2015, and Jutge was the person making the comments. That was readily accepted, but for some reason no one can believe that the same applies to Gauzere being clueless

I don't want to labour the point into submission but lets be transparent

It was with a bi-weekly rugby magazine well known for being sensational. Some extracts from the actual conversation, however the qualification they conveniently missed out on publication

Jutge wrote:“From the moment when the referee says ‘time on’ the game can recommence,”

100% correct

Jutge wrote:“Except that it was on him (Gauzere) to make sure the English had material time to reorganise themselves, because it was him who had asked the captain to speak to his players.”

100% correct and 22 seconds is more than enough time, Dan Biggar was spot on after 10 seconds when he looked at Gauzere and was told not to kick, the ref should have said then "Farrell how long do you need to say "stop the persistent fouls", please get ready" He didn't and that was the mistake

Reference Gauzere and his TMO consultation that decided Wales winger Louis Rees-Zammit had not knocked on the ball in the lead up to Liam Williams’ try.

Jutge wrote:“I think there is a tendency to refer to the TMO too often when one can make the call oneself on the pitch and stick with it, which if Pascal had whistled for a knock-on there would have meant no appeal by the TMO to review it,”

100% Incorrect and he qualified that as well (which typically of the French mag they left out). In my mind that wasn't an error

We now have a process where the ref can ask the TMO to review it, initially it looked like a knock-on and what Jutge is suggesting that the ref how have just said knock-on instead of a proper review. Strewth, that beggar belief. If that's the case he should have reviewed the England try etc etc

Strangely that was Wales 3rd victory and their next game was Italy and then a Grand Slammer v France, which of course France were convinced it would be as they knew they would hammer Scotland at home. So an opportune moment for Midi Olympique to mix it up

For posters who want to understand the type of media outlet Midi Olympique is then you only have to look at the board and ownership particularly Jean-Michel Baylet and his history

Jamie Roberts on a recent podcast reminded everyone that Sky reported he was going on tour in 2017 the day before the announcement. He had felt he was an outside bet, but started thinking "No smoke without fire", and had a sleepless night. The next day, everyone at his club congratulated him. When the squad was named, and he wasn't in it, he says he was devastated. Consequently, he feels for people like Kyle Sinckler and Danny Care (his former Quins teammates), who were being widely tipped, and didn't make it.

Ha thats pretty funny. Cruel.

Could people move the discussion of the Wales vs England match back to the Wales vs England thread

It has been done to death and is derailing the thread

Thanks

Channel 4 will be showing the game against Japan live, and highlights of all other games on the tour.

https://www.lionsrugby.com/2021/05/12/lions-return-to-terrestrial-television-on-channel-4/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=lions-return-to-terrestrial-television-on-channel-4

Is it usual for there to be no confirmed kick off times for the games at this stage? Went to add them to my phone calendar but neither the Lions site nor BBC etc are listing times, just dates

BamBam wrote:Is it usual for there to be no confirmed kick off times for the games at this stage? Went to add them to my phone calendar but neither the Lions site nor BBC etc are listing times, just dates

The kick off times and dates on here:-

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/0/lions-tour-2021-dates-fixtures-south-africa-matches-times-tv-schedule/

The only one that isn't is the Japan game, but I think they were still waiting for the broadcaster.

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in  NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

Yeah, I think that is nonsense, there is a common perception from SH supporters that NH referees ref us out of the game and the reverse applies to the Nh supporters.

I have not seen any stats giving validation to either opinion.

I think there might be certain individual experiences with a particular referee that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of supporters, but that goes for every team.

Hey Bil, what do you think of Bryce Lawrence as a ref.

I have no respect for him. That’s all I have to say about that.

Wasnt Bryce Lawerence the ref who whistled the Lions off the park in the first test v SA 12 years ago?

Saturday, June 26... Japan... Murrayfield... Sky Sports... KO TBC
Saturday July 3... Stormers... Cape Town... Sky Sports... KO 7pm
Wednesday, July 7... South Africa Invitational... Port Elizabeth... Sky Sports... KO 7pm
Saturday, July 10... Sharks... Durban... Sky Sports... KO 7pm
Wednesday, July 14... South Africa A... Mbombela... Sky Sports... KO 7pm
Saturday, July 17... Bulls... Pretoria... Sky Sports... KO 7pm
Saturday, July 24... South Africa... Cape Town... Sky Sports... KO 5pm
Saturday, July 31... South Africa... Johannesburg... Sky Sports... KO 5pm
Saturday, August 7... South Africa... Johannesburg... Sky Sports... KO 5pm

Its almost a waste not having some of the fixtures during work hours now that we are all working from home.

Collapse2005 wrote:Its almost a waste not having some of the fixtures during work hours now that we are all working from home.

Was just thinking that. Was part of the enjoyment of the tours was trying to keep up-to-date by sneakily streaming or listening to the games during work

MichaelT wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Its almost a waste not having some of the fixtures during work hours now that we are all working from home.

Was just thinking that. Was part of the enjoyment of the tours was trying to keep up-to-date by sneakily streaming or listening to the games during work

BamBam wrote:Is it usual for there to be no confirmed kick off times for the games at this stage? Went to add them to my phone calendar but neither the Lions site nor BBC etc are listing times, just dates

according to The SA Rugby website, the match kick off times are 12pm

Collapse2005 wrote:

Old Man wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Old Man wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:French refs are the best in the business, speaking of which I really hope we get a french ref for at least 2 of the test matches again this time as we did in  NZ. Think it is crucial to avoid two SH refs for the tests as they will just ref the Lions out of the game.

Yeah, I think that is nonsense, there is a common perception from SH supporters that NH referees ref us out of the game and the reverse applies to the Nh supporters.

I have not seen any stats giving validation to either opinion.

I think there might be certain individual experiences with a particular referee that leaves a bad taste in the mouth of supporters, but that goes for every team.

Hey Bil, what do you think of Bryce Lawrence as a ref.

I have no respect for him. That’s all I have to say about that.

Wasnt Bryce Lawerence the ref who whistled the Lions off the park in the first test v SA 12 years ago?

where I come from (more or less) anything south of the river Thames is the Southern Hemisphere.

Fulham, Chelsea sort of area? Yeah there are lots of South Africans in London. Fun city, enjoy visiting a lot.

Telegraph citing the example of Rory Best to point out the importance of player management for people on the standby list. I well remember how out-of-sorts Best looked in 2013, and didn't realize how his initial non-selection caused such self-doubt.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2021/05/12/rory-bests-2013-lions-agony-shows-warren-gatland-must-treat/

The sensitivity of rejection is amplified in that Gatland and his coaching team have to make tight decisions about players who are top dogs in their own national environment but may not be considered good enough for the Lions.  

Rory Best, the former Ulster and Ireland hooker, recalled in recent autobiography his feelings of rejection after being overlooked for selection as one of the three hookers for the Lions on the tour of Australia in 2013.

His disappointment was made worse by comments by the Lions coaching staff afterwards that the selection for the hookers’ position had not been a difficult one, even though Best was the first choice Ireland hooker and Dylan Hartley was then understudy to Tom Youngs with England.

When Best received a late call-up for the tour after Hartley was ruled out of the tour with a ban for verbally abusing referee Wayne Barnes in the Premiership final, he was mentally shot, travelling with the nagging doubt that he was not rated by the coaches and his performances reflected that insecurity.

Best made amends four years later in New Zealand, when despite missing out on the Test squad selection, he was determined to make the most out of every single moment of the tour and lead the midweek team with distinction.

Sinckler is among those high-profile omissions four years later and given that testimony, it would not be unwise for Gatland to reach out to those who may have felt harshly done by, if he feels they may yet have a role to play in South Africa.

Isnt Sinkler 2nd choice behind Afoa at Bristol? Rory Best was one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland and Ulster.

Collapse2005 wrote:Isnt Sinkler 2nd choice behind Afoa at Bristol? Rory Best was one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland and Ulster.

Prop is always a bit more complicated about 1st/2nd choice given the usual substitutions, especially when you have the old grizzled veteran who is always available vs the younger guy in the prime of his career who is often away with his national team. I went through this year's fixtures and they have only been on the same team about 5/6 times and Sinckler has started more often.

Sinckler is absolutely first choice for England which is what should count.

lostinwales wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Isnt Sinkler 2nd choice behind Afoa at Bristol? Rory Best was one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland and Ulster.

Prop is always a bit more complicated about 1st/2nd choice given the usual substitutions, especially when you have the old grizzled veteran who is always available vs the younger guy in the prime of his career who is often away with his national team. I went through this year's fixtures and they have only been on the same team about 5/6 times and Sinckler has started more often.

Sinckler is absolutely first choice for England which is what should count.

Looking at the Bok front row that played in the RWC it would be very hard to say who is in fact second choice, whether you had Beast, Bongi and Frans or Kitshoff, Marx and Koch as your front row made little difference in weakness or ability.

lostinwales wrote:Sinckler is absolutely first choice for England which is what should count.

Count for what exactly ?

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Sinckler is absolutely first choice for England which is what should count.

Count for what exactly ?

Puts him front of the queue for Lions starter, captain, head coach, Knight of the realm and heir to the throne

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Sinckler is absolutely first choice for England which is what should count.

Count for what exactly ?

Puts him front of the queue for Lions starter, captain, head coach, Knight of the realm and heir to the throne

In fact they will clone him so we can put out a team of 15 Sincklers in the 2045 Lions tour to Mars

I'm only asking, so that we can debate, is it that hard on here ? Or do you all have to be so precious ?

BamBam wrote:Puts him front of the queue for Lions starter, captain, head coach, Knight of the realm and heir to the throne

And just for you to know, all those spots are already taken by AWJ.

Oh the irony

Sinckler started at full back so still covers more positions to a better standard than Daly.

I suppose the debate on Sinckler being first choice for England counting is that he is experienced against coming up against what most would consider the best opposition scrummagers and play while everyone is fresh. In terms of clubs, no he's not second choice to Afoa but even if so Afoa isn't available for the Lions.

Collapse2005 wrote:Isnt Sinkler 2nd choice behind Afoa at Bristol? Rory Best was one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland and Ulster.

No, not even close. Sinckler is the Bristol first choice. Afoa is the veteran back up who is very useful for rotation, international periods and the last 20 minutes of games. Afoa obviously a very talented player but at his age he isn't going to keep up with Sinckler.