Lions Announcement - Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Well its clear that Sinkler...

Sinckler

Stinkler?

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Well its clear that Sinkler...

Sinckler

Can you not respect Collapse’s right to spell it how he damn well likes!

Its just a misspelling lads, I am a terrible speller but fortunately I dont think the main man Kyle will ever have to read any of this.

To take this to a ludicrous extreme, considering my background which country or countries would I qualify to play for? I was born in the old Royal Naval Hospital in Hong Kong, back in the day. My parents both worked for the foreign office in service to the British Commonwealth (Empire?). I never lived in England until I was 13, prior to that moved frequently as my parents were redeployed, reassigned, or simply told to GTFO.  My mum’s family is from either side of Offa’s Dyke but she was a fluent Welsh speaker at a time when few people had a clue or even cared.  

So, given all that, which countries would I have qualified for? I bring it up only because it goes back to the questions about what constitutes nationality.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look for yourself if you want more, try behaviour instead of discipline, you will have loads of hits. I am not your secretary.  

I have also admitted I might have got the fish hook situation wrong.

Like I've told you before, if you don't want to get called out for posting bollox, don't post bollox

There's a good little lad

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

Not as good as Furlong who is the best in the world, so certainly not as good as others in his position in Ireland. Porter and Fagerson I rate really highly and are in better form than Sincks so I don't have qualms with their selection either, even though Sincks at his best such as 2019 has reached a higher ceiling than Fagerson or Porter have reached in my opinion.

Even in his current form he's significantly better than Francis, Brown or Lee from the Welsh options though. Francis is first choice and tends to play behind Harry Williams at Chiefs in the biggest games such as both finals in their double last season.

doctor_grey wrote:My mum’s family is from either side of Offa’s Dyke but she was a fluent Welsh speaker at a time when few people had a clue or even cared.

People still care a great deal about the Welsh language. I am fluent Welsh speaking, and you get a lot of benefits from being able to speak it in Wales.

Saying that, my mother was born in Bromsgrove, but moved to Wales before she could walk with my gran who married my already Welsh grandfather.

Does that make me dual qualified ?

Collapse2005 wrote:Its just a misspelling lads, I am a terrible speller but fortunately I dont think the main man Kyle will ever have to read any of this.

I have an unaddressed trauma at the root of all this. Years ago, my girlfriend told me her colleague was getting married, and we were going to the wedding. She was in a rush, and asked me to write the card for our present. This was a pre-internet era but I still don't know why I didn't check before writing the bride's name as Gronya. Since then I can't see the name Gráinne without shrivelling with embarrassment.

king_carlos wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look for yourself if you want more, try behaviour instead of discipline, you will have loads of hits. I am not your secretary.  

I have also admitted I might have got the fish hook situation wrong.

Like I've told you before, if you don't want to get called out for posting bollox, don't post bollox

There's a good little lad

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

Not as good as Furlong who is the best in the world, so certainly not as good as others in his position in Ireland. Porter and Fagerson I rate really highly and are in better form than Sincks so I don't have qualms with their selection either, even though Sincks at his best such as 2019 has reached a higher ceiling than Fagerson or Porter have reached in my opinion.

Even in his current form he's significantly better than Francis, Brown or Lee from the Welsh options though. Francis is first choice and tends to play behind Harry Williams at Chiefs in the biggest games such as both finals in their double last season.

In all seriousness KC, I would not complain if he was picked for the Lions, nor would he weaken them if he was to replace one who is picked, I just didn't like the nasty undercurrent that some of our fellow members on here were tending towards whilst broaching the subject.

The Oracle wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Of course geoff. At the start of this I said I would love to know the true reasons players are chosen or ignored. Never likely to get to know most of that until years later as what is released tends to be contradictory. Forwards were chosen on pens conceded in the scrum....so we pick Vunipola. Clearly a line to say we answered now move on!

Vunapola is a Kiwi and Gatland loves selecting Kiwis.

Mako could claim to feel he's many nationalities but saying he's a Kiwi is hilarious. Born in NZ but by the time he was 3 they'd moved to Australia and by the time Billy was in pre-school the family were in Wales. Mako's primary schooling and the beginning of secondary schooling were all in Wales before they moved to England and he received scholarship due to his abundant talent. That's before discussing their Tongan heritage.

Suggesting Mako is a Kiwi due to place of birth just sums up the antiquated obsession with birthplace which the often maligned international qualification through parentage or residency is so vital to break past. By birthplace my brother and sister are German because my father was serving at an Armed Forces base in Germany when they popped out. They lived there a max of 18 months in the older brothers case, speak no German and to my knowledge each has been to Germany once since when they visited Berlin. They ain't German and Mako ain't a Kiwi.

If Wales had the same opportunities as they offer in England, both of them would be Welsh.

Only Mako and Billy know that though. Which is sort of the point of my post. When it comes to players with genuine, deep rooted links to multiple countries which they could qualify to represent I believe the only ones who need to know why they opt for one nation are the players in question.

The strange and archaic obsession many have (not saying that you do yourself LD) with trying to reduce nationality to birth place or even something as trivial as a persons accent (sadly "listen to him!" is a common and entirely moronic argument made in these discussions) is ridiculous.

In the modern world many of us feel pride and attachment to more than one nation and nationality. A far smaller number of us are talented enough that they need to choose between those attachments to decide who they will represent on the world stage. The reasons that players make those decisions are often personal and completely unknown to those that try to simplify the situation to "he's a Kiwi".

Perhaps a massive can of worms but given the Itoje and Sinckler discussion on how race affects the views people take on players I think it's absolutely worth noting that nobody calls Sam Underhill, Alex Corbisiero or Tommy Semour American or John Barclay Hong Kongese as they were born in those nations due to their parents occupation and residence at the time of birth. However, the BAME player that was born in NZ due to his fathers occupation at the time but has lived in the UK since Primary School doesn't warrant being considered as from around these parts by some rugby fans.

I agree with this.  From my own experiences supporting the Welsh team, I’ve felt that opposition fans and media get a lot more rabid about the likes of Willis Halaholo and Taulupe Faletau representing Wales than they ever did about players such as Gareth Anscombe or Hadleigh Parkes.  The only difference, it would seem, is their names not being anglicised and their skin not being white...... making them stand out as ‘more different’ than the white foreigners and therefore more open to criticism (as in, criticism of their selection).  Madness.

It's something that needs highlighting much more in sport. "Their names not being anglicised and their skin not white" is a good way of putting it.

The even more overt examples in cricket such as Moeen Ali (born in Birmingham) or Monty Panesar (born in Luton) having their 'legitimacy' questioned will be castigated to some extent but the ever so slightly less overt examples such as above skate under the radar.

It's probably telling that the poster who slated Mako as "a Kiwi" hasn't bothered offering any counter argument to be honest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose the debate on Sinckler being first choice for England counting is that he is experienced against coming up against what most would consider the best opposition scrummagers and play while everyone is fresh. In terms of clubs, no he's not second choice to Afoa but even if so Afoa isn't available for the Lions.

To clarify Sinckler has started 3 games this year, Afoa 11

And?

To claim Sinckler is first choice and Afoa the cover is bogus and without foundation, which was what was claimed here

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose the debate on Sinckler being first choice for England counting is that he is experienced against coming up against what most would consider the best opposition scrummagers and play while everyone is fresh. In terms of clubs, no he's not second choice to Afoa but even if so Afoa isn't available for the Lions.

To clarify Sinckler has started 3 games this year, Afoa 11

And?

To claim Sinckler is first choice and Afoa the cover is bogus and without foundation, which was what was claimed here

Only if you willfully ignore that Sinckler has been unavailable because of international duty.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Its just a misspelling lads, I am a terrible speller but fortunately I dont think the main man Kyle will ever have to read any of this.

I have an unaddressed trauma at the root of all this. Years ago, my girlfriend told me her colleague was getting married, and we were going to the wedding. She was in a rush, and asked me to write the card for our present. This was a pre-internet era but I still don't know why I didn't check before writing the bride's name as Gronya. Since then I can't see the name Gráinne without shrivelling with embarrassment.

Dont worry I have an Irish name too and I have seen every possible attempt at spelling it too varying from similar sounding womens names to very creative phonetical variations. It comes with the territory and is usually funny. I sure Grainne found it funny too.

I'm sad for Sinckler but not angry about the other props selected. From an England perspective, I'm probably more disappointed for Jonny May or Henry Slade.

In May's case, like James Ryan, he has been consistently good for three of four years, and just had the misfortune to slightly - and only slightly - fall off those standards in the Six Nations. Even so, I would argue Ryan can feel more aggrieved than May.

With Slade, it's not that he should have been an automatic choice, it's more that he would have come away from a Lions tour an improved player, so I look at it from a selfish English perspective.

Soul Requiem wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose the debate on Sinckler being first choice for England counting is that he is experienced against coming up against what most would consider the best opposition scrummagers and play while everyone is fresh. In terms of clubs, no he's not second choice to Afoa but even if so Afoa isn't available for the Lions.

To clarify Sinckler has started 3 games this year, Afoa 11

And?

To claim Sinckler is first choice and Afoa the cover is bogus and without foundation, which was what was claimed here

Only if you willfully ignore that Sinckler has been unavailable because of international duty.

England legend Andy Goode reckons he is second choice at Bristol too.
https://youtu.be/cA93Z3er-I8

He also talks about dicipline

https://youtu.be/m9-gatAbLyc

king_carlos wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Of course geoff. At the start of this I said I would love to know the true reasons players are chosen or ignored. Never likely to get to know most of that until years later as what is released tends to be contradictory. Forwards were chosen on pens conceded in the scrum....so we pick Vunipola. Clearly a line to say we answered now move on!

Vunapola is a Kiwi and Gatland loves selecting Kiwis.

Mako could claim to feel he's many nationalities but saying he's a Kiwi is hilarious. Born in NZ but by the time he was 3 they'd moved to Australia and by the time Billy was in pre-school the family were in Wales. Mako's primary schooling and the beginning of secondary schooling were all in Wales before they moved to England and he received scholarship due to his abundant talent. That's before discussing their Tongan heritage.

Suggesting Mako is a Kiwi due to place of birth just sums up the antiquated obsession with birthplace which the often maligned international qualification through parentage or residency is so vital to break past. By birthplace my brother and sister are German because my father was serving at an Armed Forces base in Germany when they popped out. They lived there a max of 18 months in the older brothers case, speak no German and to my knowledge each has been to Germany once since when they visited Berlin. They ain't German and Mako ain't a Kiwi.

If Wales had the same opportunities as they offer in England, both of them would be Welsh.

Only Mako and Billy know that though. Which is sort of the point of my post. When it comes to players with genuine, deep rooted links to multiple countries which they could qualify to represent I believe the only ones who need to know why they opt for one nation are the players in question.

The strange and archaic obsession many have (not saying that you do yourself LD) with trying to reduce nationality to birth place or even something as trivial as a persons accent (sadly "listen to him!" is a common and entirely moronic argument made in these discussions) is ridiculous.

In the modern world many of us feel pride and attachment to more than one nation and nationality. A far smaller number of us are talented enough that they need to choose between those attachments to decide who they will represent on the world stage. The reasons that players make those decisions are often personal and completely unknown to those that try to simplify the situation to "he's a Kiwi".

Perhaps a massive can of worms but given the Itoje and Sinckler discussion on how race affects the views people take on players I think it's absolutely worth noting that nobody calls Sam Underhill, Alex Corbisiero or Tommy Semour American or John Barclay Hong Kongese as they were born in those nations due to their parents occupation and residence at the time of birth. However, the BAME player that was born in NZ due to his fathers occupation at the time but has lived in the UK since Primary School doesn't warrant being considered as from around these parts by some rugby fans.

I agree with this.  From my own experiences supporting the Welsh team, I’ve felt that opposition fans and media get a lot more rabid about the likes of Willis Halaholo and Taulupe Faletau representing Wales than they ever did about players such as Gareth Anscombe or Hadleigh Parkes.  The only difference, it would seem, is their names not being anglicised and their skin not being white...... making them stand out as ‘more different’ than the white foreigners and therefore more open to criticism (as in, criticism of their selection).  Madness.

It's something that needs highlighting much more in sport. "Their names not being anglicised and their skin not white" is a good way of putting it.

The even more overt examples in cricket such as Moeen Ali (born in Birmingham) or Monty Panesar (born in Luton) having their 'legitimacy' questioned will be castigated to some extent but the ever so slightly less overt examples such as above skate under the radar.

It's probably telling that the poster who slated Mako as "a Kiwi" hasn't bothered offering any counter argument to be honest.

TBH, I was against capping Willis Halaholo at first, but not because of his name or the colour of his skin, but for the fact that he is not Welsh. But after reflection, and seeing how he is bringing his daughters up as Welsh, and has established roots in his community I have come to accept that I was wrong. For the record I was strongly against us going after and capping Gareth Anscombe infront of players we already had here in Wales.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose the debate on Sinckler being first choice for England counting is that he is experienced against coming up against what most would consider the best opposition scrummagers and play while everyone is fresh. In terms of clubs, no he's not second choice to Afoa but even if so Afoa isn't available for the Lions.

To clarify Sinckler has started 3 games this year, Afoa 11

And?

To claim Sinckler is first choice and Afoa the cover is bogus and without foundation, which was what was claimed here

Only if you willfully ignore that Sinckler has been unavailable because of international duty.

England legend Andy Goode reckons he is second choice at Bristol too.
https://youtu.be/cA93Z3er-I8

That settles it then, Goode is a muppet.

Soul Requiem wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose the debate on Sinckler being first choice for England counting is that he is experienced against coming up against what most would consider the best opposition scrummagers and play while everyone is fresh. In terms of clubs, no he's not second choice to Afoa but even if so Afoa isn't available for the Lions.

To clarify Sinckler has started 3 games this year, Afoa 11

And?

To claim Sinckler is first choice and Afoa the cover is bogus and without foundation, which was what was claimed here

Only if you willfully ignore that Sinckler has been unavailable because of international duty.

Not ignoring anything.

I have seen nothing to suggest Afoa is not still noplaying extremely well and is, at least, Sincklers equal - it was not me who made the claim one was 1st choice and the other a finisher.
They are both very good players.

The Oracle wrote:

Videos like these don’t help his cause. And who screams like that, seriously?!

This was posted last week - 30 seconds of it are POM losing the plot, 30 seconds are Genge on the wind up so what is it actually proving. Is screaming "baggage" now? I merely asked LD to provide examples of this infamous baggage that he seems to think exist, but all he found was one citing for swearing, so he's had to resort to speaking in emojis like the simpleton he is

I'm not even that bothered about Sinckler not being selected, I was answering your question as to who I thought he should have been selected instead of for tactical reasons before the usual nonsense about baggage and discipline got dropped in

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm sad for Sinckler but not angry about the other props selected. From an England perspective, I'm probably more disappointed for Jonny May or Henry Slade.

In May's case, like James Ryan, he has been consistently good for three of four years, and just had the misfortune to slightly - and only slightly - fall off those standards in the Six Nations. Even so, I would argue Ryan can feel more aggrieved than May.

With Slade, it's not that he should have been an automatic choice, it's more that he would have come away from a Lions tour an improved player, so I look at it from a selfish English perspective.

Agree with this though I feel sadly Ryan didnt have his best year this year it was still probably good enough to have been in contention. He may have lost out as he isnt quite as physical as some of the others.

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is rubbish - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

geoff999rugby wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I suppose the debate on Sinckler being first choice for England counting is that he is experienced against coming up against what most would consider the best opposition scrummagers and play while everyone is fresh. In terms of clubs, no he's not second choice to Afoa but even if so Afoa isn't available for the Lions.

To clarify Sinckler has started 3 games this year, Afoa 11

And?

To claim Sinckler is first choice and Afoa the cover is bogus and without foundation, which was what was claimed here

Only if you willfully ignore that Sinckler has been unavailable because of international duty.

Not ignoring anything.

I have seen nothing to suggest Afoa is not still noplaying extremely well and is, at least, Sincklers equal - it was not me who made the claim one was 1st choice and the other a finisher.
They are both very good players.

Sinckler is first choice though.

How many Irish players are first choice for there clubs or do we need to lure Phil in from twitter to tell us how they don't respect the league enough!

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm sad for Sinckler but not angry about the other props selected. From an England perspective, I'm probably more disappointed for Jonny May or Henry Slade.

In May's case, like James Ryan, he has been consistently good for three of four years, and just had the misfortune to slightly - and only slightly - fall off those standards in the Six Nations. Even so, I would argue Ryan can feel more aggrieved than May.

With Slade, it's not that he should have been an automatic choice, it's more that he would have come away from a Lions tour an improved player, so I look at it from a selfish English perspective.

Agree with this though I feel sadly Ryan didnt have his best year this year it was still probably good enough to have been in contention. He may have lost out as he isnt quite as physical as some of the others.

Jonny Hill being selected over James Ryan and Mako being selected instead of Marler are the worst decisions for me. Would probably have gambled on Tuilagi being fit enough to play in at least two of the tests.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm sad for Sinckler but not angry about the other props selected. From an England perspective, I'm probably more disappointed for Jonny May or Henry Slade.

In May's case, like James Ryan, he has been consistently good for three of four years, and just had the misfortune to slightly - and only slightly - fall off those standards in the Six Nations. Even so, I would argue Ryan can feel more aggrieved than May.

With Slade, it's not that he should have been an automatic choice, it's more that he would have come away from a Lions tour an improved player, so I look at it from a selfish English perspective.

Agree with this though I feel sadly Ryan didnt have his best year this year it was still probably good enough to have been in contention. He may have lost out as he isnt quite as physical as some of the others.

Ryan's carrying game has always impressed me. He's very good at making a yard or so with every carry and presenting the ball back very fast, it really helps get quick ball from a static ruck. Not the outright bulk of some second rows but he's never looked lightweight in open play.

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is bollock - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

Cannot remember Sinckler ever getting the upper hand in the scrums against Wales.

Are our loose heads that good ?

In Ireland if you are selected less for your province it probably means you are first choice.

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is rubbish - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

That last bit is rubbish. Just what I expected from someone who thinks Wayne Barnes is a poor ref when he's absolutely brilliant .

Collapse2005 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm sad for Sinckler but not angry about the other props selected. From an England perspective, I'm probably more disappointed for Jonny May or Henry Slade.

In May's case, like James Ryan, he has been consistently good for three of four years, and just had the misfortune to slightly - and only slightly - fall off those standards in the Six Nations. Even so, I would argue Ryan can feel more aggrieved than May.

With Slade, it's not that he should have been an automatic choice, it's more that he would have come away from a Lions tour an improved player, so I look at it from a selfish English perspective.

Agree with this though I feel sadly Ryan didnt have his best year this year it was still probably good enough to have been in contention. He may have lost out as he isnt quite as physical as some of the others.

This ties in with the surprise from us England fans that Hill did get selected, because although there is definitely potential the only thing currently going for him is his physicality.

mikey_dragon wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is rubbish - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

That last bit is rubbish. Just what I expected from someone who thinks Wayne Barnes is a poor ref when he's absolutely brilliant .

Its all about what you want. Sinckler is a very good scrummager but there are better. It's the other things he can do, especially the handling, that make him stand out.

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is rubbish - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

That last bit is rubbish. Just what I expected from someone who thinks Wayne Barnes is a poor ref when he's absolutely brilliant .

Its all about what you want. Sinckler is a very good scrummager but there are better. It's the other things he can do, especially the handling, that make him stand out.

I rate Sinckler very highly. If geoff was referring to our top TH, presumably Tomas Francis, then to say he is "not even close" is pure tripe. I thought Francis was unlucky not to get a call as well, he's got a lot better this season.

LordDowlais wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:My mum’s family is from either side of Offa’s Dyke but she was a fluent Welsh speaker at a time when few people had a clue or even cared.

People still care a great deal about the Welsh language. I am fluent Welsh speaking, and you get a lot of benefits from being able to speak it in Wales.

Saying that, my mother was born in Bromsgrove, but moved to Wales before she could walk with my gran who married my already Welsh grandfather.

Does that make me dual qualified ?

I'm sure you would look great wearing white with a red rose on your chest!
It seems to me a lot of people want to learn their native or historical tongue, which I think is a very good thing. Despite mum's best efforts, I never got past a middling level.

geoff999rugby wrote:Lot of people surprised by Ryan being out.

As an Irish supporter I'm not - Henderson and Beirne have both outperformed him in the 6N.
I did think their was an outside chance all three would go.
That would have been instead of Hill, AWJ was always (rightly) going to go

I'd go further than that and say Henderson is the better player and has been for years. Ryan is good but he's overrated by the media as the replacement for Paulie, through no fault of his own. For all the stick AWJ gets as sometimes being a plodder in the row Johnny Gray and James Ryan are basically the same. Ryan doesn't put in world class performances when his pack's on the back foot and Gatland's clearly noticed that. Hill and AWJ are the tighthead locks and you can't really argue with that on the basis of knowing what AWJ can do and the experience he brings. Hill is fortunate to be picked but I think he has a higher ceiling than Ryan for a Lions tour like this where the lineout and loose play also counts. Hill's shown he can offer that with Exeter in big games, I'm not sure Ryan ever looks top class unless Leinster or Ireland are dominating. It's the same issue with Launchbury.

I'll be honest I really like the squad.

I don't think there's a single decision Gatland has got wrong (insofar as a coach can be 'wrong' lol).

This looks like the ultimate Gatland type team and it's definitely helped having coaches representing all four nations. Hopefully we'll be back to seeing it as a Lions tour and not just as four nations playing in the same strip.

I don't think the test team is nailed on unlike in previous tours. Maybe only three players:

4. Itoje
7. Curry
15. Hogg

Every other position is completely up for grabs and you can see that by the way he's selected by position. There's a real template to the test team. The opensides are going to be given freedom to perform but the blindside is going to be competing with Lawes, Beirne, and maybe Henderson. That opens up the likelihood of a 6-2 bench as well but there will definitely be mixing and matching of the test teams to suit conditions, weather, fatigue.

I also think we're probably going to see:

5. AWJ
9. Murray
12. Farrell

but only if they show form in the warm-up games. The odd nature of this year and the lack of form the Boks will have coming in to it means warm up performances will probably count for a lot. The only one I think might not make it even if he plays well is van der merwe a bit like Serymour just because he looks very raw in defence but I might be wrong.

Hill, Conan, and Simmonds are the lucky picks but when you think about it you can see why they've gone. They all have very high ceilings of potential particularly on hard ground running the ball around the fringes and all of them could end up being test Lions. Ryan, Vunipola, and Underhill missed out as it's not like they're head and shoulders above them and also lacking form and fitness. I'm not surprised by Aki he was also going to take a player like Aki with North being injured. I just think we've been massively unlucky to have one of the best players in the north miss out on his final chance of being a mainstay in the Lions test team and that is Tuilagi. I don't know what everyone else thinks but I would have loved to have seen him finally have a go. Daly is a bit lucky but he's like Halfpenny and Slade in one player and they had to take a long range kicking option.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it but the props are the most interesting selection. Sinckler got a lot of press last week but I can see why he's not been picked. The loose heads are ball carriers and the tight heads are scrummagers. He's taken the three strongest tight heads and probably the three most dynamic loose heads without taking Genge who has one of England's least effective players this season. Vunipola and Sutherland can mix it up and carry in the loose, be the first receiver like Sinckler, and make 20m breaks. Wyn Jones is more of an allrounder but in top form. He hasn't taken Marler who is maybe the best scrummaging prop in the world. But he's gone for Furlong, Porter, and Fagerson who are all solid. Francis is a bit unlucky to miss out as well but Fagerson looks like a more destructive scrummager. So Sinckler is unlucky but you can see the template the Lions aren't risking the scrum collapsing like it did for England in the world cup final they've gone for the best scrummaging tight heads and then more mobile loose heads. Sinckler's indiscipline doesn't help but the fact he's been part of an England scrum that was taken apart by Ireland is a bigger factor. It wasn't just Vunipola's fault.

I'm also happy to see the Scots in the team. A lot of them will be 'plan b' options but that might be ideal as they know how to tear it up in the last few minutes. Price and Russell are like the win or bust option. If we're 5 points down with 2 minutes to go they could decide the game either way.

I hope the Boks go well. They'll probably come with a huge physical approach in the first test but not playing in 2 years can't be good for them. The 2013 tour was good but it was never great because of how weak Australia were. Let's hope we get 2019 Boks and not any other version from the previous 5 years.

y ddraig goch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Lot of people surprised by Ryan being out.

As an Irish supporter I'm not - Henderson and Beirne have both outperformed him in the 6N.
I did think their was an outside chance all three would go.
That would have been instead of Hill, AWJ was always (rightly) going to go

I'd go further than that and say Henderson is the better player and has been for years. Ryan is good but he's overrated by the media as the replacement for Paulie, through no fault of his own. For all the stick AWJ gets as sometimes being a plodder in the row Johnny Gray and James Ryan are basically the same. Ryan doesn't put in world class performances when his pack's on the back foot and Gatland's clearly noticed that. Hill and AWJ are the tighthead locks and you can't really argue with that on the basis of knowing what AWJ can do and the experience he brings. Hill is fortunate to be picked but I think he has a higher ceiling than Ryan for a Lions tour like this where the lineout and loose play also counts. Hill's shown he can offer that with Exeter in big games, I'm not sure Ryan ever looks top class unless Leinster or Ireland are dominating. It's the same issue with Launchbury.

I don't know about this. Henderson has always had a lot of promise but had a lot of games for Ireland where he was a bit anonymous - the fact the likes of Devin Toner and Donnacha Ryan were often selected over Henderson says a lot - those two were good locks but not nearly as talented. I'm very glad Henderson showed what he can do for Ireland this 6N as it's been a long time coming.

As for Ryan, I feel the recent narrative around him has been quite revisionist. This critique of him has only come about now in a season he's played very few games, and the one game he did play in the 6N (Italy aside) he decimated Scotland's lineout. The comments about him not being good enough when Ireland are up against it, I disagree - I thought in Ireland's disappointing 2019 and 2020 he was often one of the only forwards to front up - particularly against England. As I say nobody was making this criticism last year when he was playing more regularly and really I think his concussions have cost him but I still think he's desperately unlucky. Sure he may have been part of a Leinster pack that was outplayed by La Rochelle recently but if we're going to judge players on just one game then Furlong Porter and Conan shouldn't be touring either.

And if we're talking about what Hill can offer in Exeter in big games I didn't see much of that when he went up against Ryan a few weeks ago in their defeat to Leinster.

y ddraig goch wrote:I'll be honest I really like the squad.

I don't think there's a single decision Gatland has got wrong (insofar as a coach can be 'wrong' lol).

This looks like the ultimate Gatland type team and it's definitely helped having coaches representing all four nations. Hopefully we'll be back to seeing it as a Lions tour and not just as four nations playing in the same strip.

I don't think the test team is nailed on unlike in previous tours. Maybe only three players:

4. Itoje
7. Curry
15. Hogg

Every other position is completely up for grabs and you can see that by the way he's selected by position. There's a real template to the test team. The opensides are going to be given freedom to perform but the blindside is going to be competing with Lawes, Beirne, and maybe Henderson. That opens up the likelihood of a 6-2 bench as well but there will definitely be mixing and matching of the test teams to suit conditions, weather, fatigue.

I also think we're probably going to see:

5. AWJ
9. Murray
12. Farrell

but only if they show form in the warm-up games. The odd nature of this year and the lack of form the Boks will have coming in to it means warm up performances will probably count for a lot. The only one I think might not make it even if he plays well is van der merwe a bit like Serymour just because he looks very raw in defence but I might be wrong.

Hill, Conan, and Simmonds are the lucky picks but when you think about it you can see why they've gone. They all have very high ceilings of potential particularly on hard ground running the ball around the fringes and all of them could end up being test Lions. Ryan, Vunipola, and Underhill missed out as it's not like they're head and shoulders above them and also lacking form and fitness. I'm not surprised by Aki he was also going to take a player like Aki with North being injured. I just think we've been massively unlucky to have one of the best players in the north miss out on his final chance of being a mainstay in the Lions test team and that is Tuilagi. I don't know what everyone else thinks but I would have loved to have seen him finally have a go. Daly is a bit lucky but he's like Halfpenny and Slade in one player and they had to take a long range kicking option.

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it but the props are the most interesting selection. Sinckler got a lot of press last week but I can see why he's not been picked. The loose heads are ball carriers and the tight heads are scrummagers. He's taken the three strongest tight heads and probably the three most dynamic loose heads without taking Genge who has one of England's least effective players this season. Vunipola and Sutherland can mix it up and carry in the loose, be the first receiver like Sinckler, and make 20m breaks. Wyn Jones is more of an allrounder but in top form. He hasn't taken Marler who is maybe the best scrummaging prop in the world. But he's gone for Furlong, Porter, and Fagerson who are all solid. Francis is a bit unlucky to miss out as well but Fagerson looks like a more destructive scrummager. So Sinckler is unlucky but you can see the template the Lions aren't risking the scrum collapsing like it did for England in the world cup final they've gone for the best scrummaging tight heads and then more mobile loose heads. Sinckler's indiscipline doesn't help but the fact he's been part of an England scrum that was taken apart by Ireland is a bigger factor. It wasn't just Vunipola's fault.

I'm also happy to see the Scots in the team. A lot of them will be 'plan b' options but that might be ideal as they know how to tear it up in the last few minutes. Price and Russell are like the win or bust option. If we're 5 points down with 2 minutes to go they could decide the game either way.

I hope the Boks go well. They'll probably come with a huge physical approach in the first test but not playing in 2 years can't be good for them. The 2013 tour was good but it was never great because of how weak Australia were. Let's hope we get 2019 Boks and not any other version from the previous 5 years.

I agree with the majority of what you say but will say that I think Wyn Jones is nailed on to start the first test.

I think Wyn Jones has the shirt to lose but there's games before the first test that can change the pecking order.

Re the lucky trio of Simmonds, Conan and Hill. Simmonds is the current European player of the year. I don't think his selection is particularly lucky his numbers are ridiculous. Yes he's out of favour with Eddie but that's not going to make much difference to Gats. Conan when not injured is a fine player and proved so in the 6N and for Leinster Vs Exeter. Hill, yeah, he's a lucky boy as he's not adapted at all to international level so far but when/if he does he'll be a cracking player. Not a player I thought they'd go for though.

Interestingly Courtney Lawes had revealed he didn't get an email about availability his name was just a announced after he'd assumed he wasn't going.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Interestingly Courtney Lawes had revealed he didn't get an email about availability his name was just a announced after he'd assumed he wasn't going.

An email was sent but not to his current email address.

Confirmation on kick offs from the lions:

Saturday 3 July: Emirates Lions v The British & Irish Lions (Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg) KO 18h00 (SAT) / 17h00 (BST)
Wednesday 7 July: Cell C Sharks v The British & Irish Lions (Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg) KO 20h00 (SAT) / 19h00 (BST)
Saturday 10 July: Vodacom Bulls v The British & Irish Lions (Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria) KO 18h00 (SAT) / 17h00 (BST)
Wednesday 14 July: South Africa ‘A’ v The British & Irish Lions (Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town) KO 20h00 (SAT) / 19h00 (BST)
Saturday 17 July: DHL Stormers v The British & Irish Lions (Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town) KO 18h00 (SAT) / 17h00 (BST)
Saturday 24 July: Springboks v The British & Irish Lions (1st Test, Cape Town Stadium, Cape Town) KO 18h00 (SAT) / 17h00 (BST)
Saturday 31 July: Springboks v The British & Irish Lions (2nd Test, FNB Stadium, Johannesburg) KO 18h00 (SAT) / 17h00 (BST)
Saturday 7 Aug: Springboks v The British & Irish Lions (3rd Test, FNB Stadium, Johannesburg) KO 18h00 (SAT) / 17h00 (BST)

For all the flack Daly has been getting over his selection, Townsend ( on the bbc rugby pod) was waxing lyrical about his outside centre play of late and briefly with Eng in the 6 nations. He really rates him in that position. As for my two cents, Gatland has take Aki because he wont gamble on Tuilagis fitness so its the next best thing. I would've select Care instead of Price but overall a pretty good squad imo.

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is bollock - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

Cannot remember Sinckler ever getting the upper hand in the scrums against Wales.

Are our loose heads that good ?

That Wyn Jones is quite good - almost good enough to make a Lions squad

He is your stand out prop and I can see Wyn Jones, Owens, Furlong being the starting front row

mikey_dragon wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is rubbish - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

That last bit is rubbish. Just what I expected from someone who thinks Wayne Barnes is a poor ref when he's absolutely brilliant .

I do not thing Wayne Barnes is poor - please quote where I said so.
Best not to make things up.

He does make mistakes, all refs do and I have criticised him for those - that does not make him a bad ref.
He also gets his mistakes highlighted because he does the big games.
I also think he has a weakness with allowing forward passes.

However he clearly is one of the better refs and along with Luke Pearce is one of the top two English referees in my book.

theslosty wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Lot of people surprised by Ryan being out.

As an Irish supporter I'm not - Henderson and Beirne have both outperformed him in the 6N.
I did think their was an outside chance all three would go.
That would have been instead of Hill, AWJ was always (rightly) going to go

I'd go further than that and say Henderson is the better player and has been for years. Ryan is good but he's overrated by the media as the replacement for Paulie, through no fault of his own. For all the stick AWJ gets as sometimes being a plodder in the row Johnny Gray and James Ryan are basically the same. Ryan doesn't put in world class performances when his pack's on the back foot and Gatland's clearly noticed that. Hill and AWJ are the tighthead locks and you can't really argue with that on the basis of knowing what AWJ can do and the experience he brings. Hill is fortunate to be picked but I think he has a higher ceiling than Ryan for a Lions tour like this where the lineout and loose play also counts. Hill's shown he can offer that with Exeter in big games, I'm not sure Ryan ever looks top class unless Leinster or Ireland are dominating. It's the same issue with Launchbury.

I don't know about this. Henderson has always had a lot of promise but had a lot of games for Ireland where he was a bit anonymous - the fact the likes of Devin Toner and Donnacha Ryan were often selected over Henderson says a lot - those two were good locks but not nearly as talented. I'm very glad Henderson showed what he can do for Ireland this 6N as it's been a long time coming.

As for Ryan, I feel the recent narrative around him has been quite revisionist. This critique of him has only come about now in a season he's played very few games, and the one game he did play in the 6N (Italy aside) he decimated Scotland's lineout. The comments about him not being good enough when Ireland are up against it, I disagree - I thought in Ireland's disappointing 2019 and 2020 he was often one of the only forwards to front up - particularly against England. As I say nobody was making this criticism last year when he was playing more regularly and really I think his concussions have cost him but I still think he's desperately unlucky. Sure he may have been part of a Leinster pack that was outplayed by La Rochelle recently but if we're going to judge players on just one game then Furlong Porter and Conan shouldn't be touring either.

And if we're talking about what Hill can offer in Exeter in big games I didn't see much of that when he went up against Ryan a few weeks ago in their defeat to Leinster.

The trouble with Leinster players looking good is they look good because the collective team is so good its easier to shine.
The same has happened at Saracens in the past.
Taking Leinster now - is Larmour better than Balocoune not in my book.
I even suggest (ducking expecting lots of flack) Keenan needs to improve his defence before he justifies the press he is currently getting.

I repeat what I said early Ryan has not been poor this season - he just has not been as good as Beirne and Henderson.
Maybe the selectors could not bring themselves to pick three Irish 2nd rows

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

It's not bollox that Sinckler has baggage, and that he is not good as others in his position from Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

I'll tell what is bollock - claiming there is a Welsh TH as good as Sinckler.

There isn't - not even close

Cannot remember Sinckler ever getting the upper hand in the scrums against Wales.

Are our loose heads that good ?

That Wyn Jones is quite good - almost good enough to make a Lions squad

He is your stand out prop and I can see Wyn Jones, Owens, Furlong being the starting front row

Agreed, Furlong shades it over Porter for me.

Thought Keenan looked good in defense all year

I don't.

He is very good in attack and impressive under the high ball when he has a clear run to catch.
However I think his tackling is lacking and his positioning in defence leaves something to be desired.
Don't get me wrong I'd have him in the Irish squad no question but I just
don't think he is the wonder kid some are making him out to be

I was actually quite impressed with how assured he was in defense in his debut year when you compare him to other great young backs who have come through in recent years, Stockdale, Ringrose, Larmour for example (Lowe too) in my recollection all struggled a bit more in this area and as have any players that were rotated in for Kearney at 15. I dont think anyone looked as good in terms of positioning and defense as Keenan. Even Henshaw had a tough time when he slotted in at 15 in previous years. Was pleasantly surprised.

Of course you may well have picked up on things I didnt notice.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Wyn Jones has the shirt to lose but there's games before the first test that can change the pecking order.

Re the lucky trio of Simmonds, Conan and Hill. Simmonds is the current European player of the year. I don't think his selection is particularly lucky his numbers are ridiculous. Yes he's out of favour with Eddie but that's not going to make much difference to Gats. Conan when not injured is a fine player and proved so in the 6N and for Leinster Vs Exeter. Hill, yeah, he's a lucky boy as he's not adapted at all to international level so far but when/if he does he'll be a cracking player. Not a player I thought they'd go for though.

Interestingly Courtney Lawes had revealed he didn't get an email about availability his name was just a announced after he'd assumed he wasn't going.

I think Wyn Jones has been the most consistent loosehead in the 6 Nations over the last couple of seasons.  However, if fit I have a sneaking feeling that Rory Sutherland will start the 1st test on the subs bench and then force his way into the starting lineup thereafter.  He is probably the most destructive loosehead scrummager in the Northern hemisphere, injuries have held him back for too long.

I don't understand the negativity that Simmonds seems to attract from certain sections - it is almost as if they have to run him down to justify Eddie's decision not to pick him for England.  I think Gatland is just picking on ability and whether players can do a job for the way he wants to play.  Simmonds offers something different to Faletau and Conan and I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing at 6.  Conan is a real talent and but for a couple of injuries would have made much more of an impact for Ireland.  I would admit that Hill is lucky to be selected on his England form, but look at what he has done for Exeter then his selcetion makes a lot more sense.  Jones's selections and playing style over the last couple of years hasn't helped a number of players and perhaps with a different coach and gameplan we will see some of them come good.

Lawes before injury was in quite a few pundits Lions dream team at 6 and if you are looking to match the physicality of the Boks, then Beirne and Lawes are the best options.  In view of his continuing injury issues his selection does look a bit of a gamble though and I assume Navidi/Underhill/Ritchie are on standy if he isn't 100%.

Fairplay to Gatland he is his own man and hasn't simply picked his old Welsh mates or the pin up boys (Sexton, Ryan, May, etc), he has picked a squad which he thinks can beat the World Champions.  A series draw against New Zealand who were then comfortably the best team in the world and a series win against the World Champions will make quite adifficult challenge for the next Lions coach to live up to.

Jack Nowell's injury might end his season. It could be moot whether he is on the standby list or not.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/57116587

Exeter winger Jack Nowell may miss the rest of the regular season after spraining medial knee ligaments. The 28-year-old hobbled off after 53 minutes of Saturday's win over Worcester. The game was only his third appearance of the season after undergoing toe surgery in October and then suffering a hamstring problem in March.

"It's a bit of a crippling blow for him seeing as he only just got back fit," said Exeter boss Rob Baxter. "Hopefully this won't be the end of his season and we'll see him before the end," Baxter added to BBC Radio Devon.

Good player

Those of us who are longer in the tooth will recall how fast injuries happen on these tours.

I go back to 2013 when 6 of the starters changed from the 2nd test to the important 3rd test when O'Connell and Warbuton were broken. Guys like Alex Corbisiero, Simon Zebo and Tom Court had huge tours in the end although were not selected in the initial squad.

The Saffer regional franchises will be told that if they manage to injure a few of their counterparts along the way, that wouldn't necessarily be the worst thing. I am delighted that we have guys like Sinckler, Ryan and Sexton ready to call up.

Tom Court only got selected as he was on holidays in Australia being an Aussie himself.