Lions Announcement - Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How very selfless of him.

Why? It's likely to be his last tour so if he thinks he can get fit then he should try.

Hes willing to take shortcuts to scramble back on tour and deprive someone who's been plugging away and training throughout. Very selfless to risk his health and potentially miss club games should it go wrong.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes willing to take shortcuts to scramble back on tour and deprive someone who's been plugging away and training throughout. Very selfless to risk his health and potentially miss club games should it go wrong.

But has he not earned the right as he has done the training previously?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes willing to take shortcuts to scramble back on tour and deprive someone who's been plugging away and training throughout. Very selfless to risk his health and potentially miss club games should it go wrong.

He's not depriving anyone, it's the same situation with Tuilagi who was on standby even though he was in a  long-term injury situation. Gatland will decide if Jones or anyone else is worthy to be called up or not, the objective is to have the best chance to win the series.

"Jones has now been told by a specialist that the injury may not be as bad as first feared, and Gatland has suggested the 35-year-old could potentially join up with the squad in the latter stages of the series.

"Given his age, they (the medical specialists) think that they could potentially take a few shortcuts, more than you would do with a young player, if he picked up this type of injury at the start of his career," "

Oakdene wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes willing to take shortcuts to scramble back on tour and deprive someone who's been plugging away and training throughout. Very selfless to risk his health and potentially miss club games should it go wrong.

But has he not earned the right as he has done the training previously?

Not in my view no. We're getting close to a repeat of the last tour when he was taken injured and was underwhelming. Even Dowlais said he shouldn't have been chosen under those circumstances and yet here we find ourselves. Cutting corners to get Gatlands faves out there. Its a story that's obviously picked up widely by the media and just a needless distraction. Id be be frankly annoyed if another lock was injured and Jones was called up possibly undercooked again rather than just say he will walk right back in without that place even becoming available.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We're getting close to a repeat of the last tour when he was taken injured and was underwhelming

So you are seriously saying Gatland knew he was injured but still took him?

So that you understand most players are carrying little niggles all the time

AWJ didn't have an underwhelming series at all, the playing strategy was clear from the start, he was to give it his all for 50 mins then the sub would replace him. 1st test was a prime example, NZ were fortunate to be 13-8 ahead at halftime, Itoje comes on around the 50th minute, we end up losing by 15 points!

AWJ was carrying an injury when selected / when the tour started. the gamble paid off tho - he recovered OK for the tests.

TJ wrote:AWJ was carrying an injury when selected / when the tour started.  the gamble paid off tho - he recovered OK for the tests.  

Afternoon TJ,
My memory must be fading in my old age, but our gang was there and I'm sure AWJ played the first game (early July) and played for the full 80 mins or am I mixing it up with 2013. There is no way that any medics would allow infringement of protocols and allow Gatland to play an unfit player.

He might have been carrying an injury on squad announcement 6 weeks before and up to the first game, but tbh I can't remember what the injury was, or how severe it was

Talking of slight injuries; Tom Curry is has "pectoral problem" hence his non involvement so far but is available for the Sharks midweek game and Henshaw is carrying a mild hamstring injury

flyhalffactory wrote:

TJ wrote:AWJ was carrying an injury when selected / when the tour started.  the gamble paid off tho - he recovered OK for the tests.  

Afternoon TJ,
My memory must be fading in my old age, but our gang was there and I'm sure AWJ played the first game (early July) and played for the full 80 mins or am I mixing it up with 2013. There is no way that any medics would allow infringement of protocols and allow Gatland to play an unfit player.

He might have been carrying an injury on squad announcement 6 weeks before and up to the first game, but tbh I can't remember what the injury was, or how severe it was

Talking of slight injuries; Tom Curry is has "pectoral problem" hence his non involvement so far but is available for the Sharks midweek game and Henshaw is carrying a mild hamstring injury

I think if you read some of the comments in another of these threads by our resident medical expert that there is an implication that the Lions medics may not have fully deserved their good reputation.

lostinwales wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

TJ wrote:AWJ was carrying an injury when selected / when the tour started.  the gamble paid off tho - he recovered OK for the tests.  

Afternoon TJ,
My memory must be fading in my old age, but our gang was there and I'm sure AWJ played the first game (early July) and played for the full 80 mins or am I mixing it up with 2013. There is no way that any medics would allow infringement of protocols and allow Gatland to play an unfit player.

He might have been carrying an injury on squad announcement 6 weeks before and up to the first game, but tbh I can't remember what the injury was, or how severe it was

Talking of slight injuries; Tom Curry is has "pectoral problem" hence his non involvement so far but is available for the Sharks midweek game and Henshaw is carrying a mild hamstring injury

I think if you read some of the comments in another of these threads by our resident medical expert that there is an implication that the Lions medics may not have fully deserved their good reputation.

Oh crikey!. Well I wouldn't dare run down any medics to my better half without categoric proof, I mean I cannae even make fun of my three old roomies when we were in Imperial back in the olden days and they are right up the medical ladder now (along with her).

Saying that I have read some breath taking assessment of concussion and head trauma on here lately including the mixing up Mbi, mTBI, MHI cases.

flyhalffactory wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

TJ wrote:AWJ was carrying an injury when selected / when the tour started.  the gamble paid off tho - he recovered OK for the tests.  

Afternoon TJ,
My memory must be fading in my old age, but our gang was there and I'm sure AWJ played the first game (early July) and played for the full 80 mins or am I mixing it up with 2013. There is no way that any medics would allow infringement of protocols and allow Gatland to play an unfit player.

He might have been carrying an injury on squad announcement 6 weeks before and up to the first game, but tbh I can't remember what the injury was, or how severe it was

Talking of slight injuries; Tom Curry is has "pectoral problem" hence his non involvement so far but is available for the Sharks midweek game and Henshaw is carrying a mild hamstring injury

I think if you read some of the comments in another of these threads by our resident medical expert that there is an implication that the Lions medics may not have fully deserved their good reputation.

Oh crikey!. Well I wouldn't dare run down any medics to my better half without categoric proof, I mean I cannae even make fun of my three old roomies when we were in Imperial back in the olden days and they are right up the medical ladder now (along with her).

Saying that I have read some breath taking assessment of concussion and head trauma on here lately including the mixing up Mbi, mTBI, MHI cases.

Yes, please don't run us down. We are a sensitive people.

In my opinion Rugby in general came very late to proper care for our players. Not just injury assessment but in-game management and long term treatment. We still see some of the last vestiges of the old school amateur era in different parts of the game in every country. The medical teams in many cases are still part of that group whose job was to do whatever was needed to 'get the players back on the pitch'. Thankfully, many old school types are retiring or were released, and there are now a lot of talented young docs, physios, and so on, much better trained and skilled than my generation and certainly the one before us (which have many of those old school types). And absolutely better connected to their peers around the world, not encysted in old school Rugby, but part of medical communities treating the injuries and root causes regardless of the sport.

For me it's not just the Lions, though I do have a special lack of respect for certain 'highly respected' individuals who have been part of various Rugby set-ups since the Middle Ages. Regarding head trauma, we all remember when George North suffered those terrible injuries, and was ignored with the accompanied lies and whatever. It's not that long ago, but inconceivable now (it was on international tv). Contrary to that look at how Courtney Lawes recovered from his injury. He was well treated, given all the time necessary not just to heal but to regain match fitness, which is so critical yet had been virtually ignored, and he is performing well. I don't know the names of the current Lions med staff but I hope they are the best we have, just like our players. That said, it sure appeared to me LCD had been knocked out. If that is truly the case he should not have been on the plane the next day. Regarding AWJ, if the med staff believes he is recovered - and match fit - then it's a coaching decision. I just hope any med decisions are made for the right reasons. And let's not forget, AWJ is an old school tough guy type, which I say with respect. But those are the guys we need to watch carefully.

For the record, I am not a medical prude nor an absolutist of any kind. Decisions and judgement calls are made all the time. It is the tolerance for out of date approaches or outright dumb decisions which drives my nuts.

Thanks doc - I was trying to find the most diplomatic way of saying the fraction of this that I had picked up on. As ever it is great to get your take.

doctor_grey wrote:Yes, please don't run us down. We are a sensitive people.

Afternoon Doc
Well my gal messes around hearts usually with a sharp intrument.....so yeah I better keep in check

It's like anything in life, you pay for what you get you know "peanuts - monkeys" etc. Rugby in general is pretty much bankrupt, so what do we do.

I suppose I have been fortunate in my career to have seen the crème de la crème of science, engineering, medicine and business but the downside of that I have also seen professionals with not a jot of intellectual capacity or common sense to do their chosen career and we let them loose at 26 after 10 yrs of studies on the unsuspecting vulnerable public.

So yes you are quite correct, there a fair few professionals in world rugby who shouldn't be near a pen, calculator or thermometer. Personally apart from playing the game and now going to the games I stay clear of rugby especially the shambles of the SRU, unfortunately my good lady has been dragged to an extent into that arena.

Reference concussion
World Rugby - a player should be immediately and permanently removed from the field of play where there are any visible symptoms or suspicion of a potential concussion.
It's a bit woolly and professional rugby players have to earn a living and there's the rub. George North no doubt has earned some decent money and if advised properly even at his relatively young age should have a decent "pension" pot, he could retire now, retrain for a career inside or outside rugby and along with his after dinner speaking could have a decent life. However with 4-5 concussions perversely he could be classed as one of the lucky ones having "done ok" financially with a health care packages built into his job if he was "forced" to retire, but there many fringe or semi-pros players aspiring to be a North a Farrell or a Finn who are barely earning enough money to pay the bills, never mind saving for mortgages or health care.

Within the current climate, budgets are being slashed it's only going to get worse

Ha!  Your gal could muck around in my chest cavity and find......nothing!  

You make a great point.  George North should be OK financially, but I still wonder about the accumulation of all those concussions.  More to your point, I wonder what kind of medical care is built into agreements at the semi-professional levels.  Or for players who play for a year or so at the top levels.  And no doubts, you are right about where budgets are going and concern about care.

Oh.  And by the way, you always need to be a bit wary of those who are trained what to do with sharp implements.  Especially the innocent looking ones.

Have to remember how things move on over the years too. What was acceptable 4 years ago (not to mention 12, or 24 even - last SA tours) is often completely outdated now. And from a medical point of view some things from the past would be down right negligence today. James Robson, for example, is always held in high esteem by Lions fans as a ‘super doc’ (I’m not saying he’s not - I have no real life experience of him) but watching Living with the Lions behind the scenes DVDs from the 1997 tour today with modern eyes and knowledge..... well he wouldn’t be able to put players back on the field now the way he/they did back then. As Doc says, Rugby has been slow on the uptake.

doctor_grey wrote:Ha! Your gal could muck around in my chest cavity and find......nothing!

I just wonder why we never shop for meat anymore! and what cheeses me off is the drinks the rugby guys buy her when we are out, I mean what about me

It's a difficult one regarding concussion, from my viewpoint we should be making it quite clear, if there is any suspicion of head trauma then you are automatically off and strictly there should be a minimum of 14 days with a set protocol based on mathematical simulations using scientific not past medical data. The present HIA is to put it mildly cumbersome and almost useless, There is off-field screening tool which checks memory, and balance within a much too short period of time, basically a glorified SCAT-5 tool. To get them back on the pitch within 6 days is plainly mad and it's only looking after the commercial side not player welfare. It'll get to the stage where players will be uninsurable or the premiums to insure such risks will be unaffordable

Anyway back to the topic at hand.
I have a dream
I can't wait to see the bullet LRZ taking off
I have a feeling Chris Harris is going to make a big statement tomorrow, Farrell will be among the try scorers and Hamish will be on a hat-trick
Believe

flyhalffactory wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Ha!  Your gal could muck around in my chest cavity and find......nothing!

I just wonder why we never shop for meat anymore! and what cheeses me off is the drinks the rugby guys buy her when we are out, I mean what about me

Nothing better than sitting at home over dinner and talking about pulling out sections of some guy's perforated colon and complaining about how it seems to snap back into place and the remaining pieces always seems to fall on my pants.

Rugby guys buy women drinks. I think it's kind of what we do.

flyhalffactory wrote:I have a dream
I can't wait to see the bullet LRZ taking off
I have a feeling Chris Harris is going to make a big statement tomorrow, Farrell will be among the try scorers and Hamish will be on a hat-trick
Believe

I believe you might be smoking something.  Farrell scoring???????????

Damn, I am going to have to eat a lot of crow if he does.....

doctor_grey wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:I have a dream
I can't wait to see the bullet LRZ taking off
I have a feeling Chris Harris is going to make a big statement tomorrow, Farrell will be among the try scorers and Hamish will be on a hat-trick
Believe

I believe you might be smoking something.  Farrell scoring???????????

Damn, I am going to have to eat a lot of crow if he does.....

Robbie Henshaw has done a hamstring. He will miss Wednesday's match, so there'll be a third starting midfield pair.

Kyran Bracken is certainly banging the drum asking questions on how LCD has been picked for this match. Not seen too many other prominent rugby commentators mention it. Just feels like we're 1 bad knock here from a major story.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kyran Bracken is certainly banging the drum asking questions on how LCD has been picked for this match. Not seen too many other prominent rugby commentators mention it. Just feels like we're 1 bad knock here from a major story.

Yeah giving him another week off just to be on the safe side would have been the best option. Gatland doesn't seem to worried with player fitness though as they are on about gambling on an early return for AWJ so he can make the end of the tour. Terrible idea, player long term fitness should be the priority.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kyran Bracken is certainly banging the drum asking questions on how LCD has been picked for this match. Not seen too many other prominent rugby commentators mention it. Just feels like we're 1 bad knock here from a major story.

Thanks for pointing this out. Seems peculiar not many people are making this point: https://twitter.com/KyranBracken/status/1410933146477023232

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/i-am-absolutely-disgusted-a-stain-on-our-great-game-bracken-lashes-lions/

Same article but a bit more fleshed out

Finn / Faz. Its gonna be fun. Either we will see some fantastic synergy or they will come to blows in the first half!

any guesses? will it work?

BigGee wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/i-am-absolutely-disgusted-a-stain-on-our-great-game-bracken-lashes-lions/

Same article but a bit more fleshed out

Thanks, mate.  Feck it.  I am going to call someone I know in the NFLPA for advise how to craft a proper med/legal note and will send to BMA, RFU, and Exeter.  As I said, I am just as concerned about putting LCD on a 12 hour flight the next day as participating in training and playing 7 days later.  But it is all wrapped up together.

It might also help if people write letters (posts) to the Telegraph or Guardian (depending on one's leanings).  To me they both have good Rugby coverage.

EDIT:  I just saw a good mate already posted about LCD on the Telegraph on an article about AWJ.