Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

Ben Leicester have been fortunate to find wealthy owners who saved us from a deal of trouble but they could not be accused of throwing stupid money around and disregarding the fans.The PL winning team was assembled from a bunch of frees ,has beens and cheap buys I think Ulloa was the top buy at about £9m.What they then did as some players moved on for big money was start throwing some of that money about to try to maintain position with varying degrees of success.The Chairman gives away free beer and cakes on his birthday and has given a lot to local organisations including a childrens hospital ,We have been very very lucky.
I think the German teams have a different voting structure where fans have a big say.

[beninho]

Ben

Don't worry, I sympathise with everything Biles has gone through, but does that mean I can't call out pseudoscience when I see it?

Your not calling out anything. Your basically making up your own views on a sexual abuse survivor without any real basis. Just for sh£ts and giggles.

[JuliusHMarx]

Ben

Thing is though, she isn't psychiatrically unwell so it's not comparable to a broken leg. People need to stop being conned by the conflation between feeling a but unhappy and real medical conditions.

How do you know that?  Did you pick up the c*nt baton for today?

In some ways I hope she does have a psychiatric problem. I hope she hasn't jumped on the current mental health fad and lumped in performance anxiety with psychiatry. If you had a faster heart rate before an event would you claim to have a cardiology issue?

It really is peculiar how the general public have accepted the invasion of psychiatry by pseudoscience.

What does it matter whether its performance anxiety or a deeper rooted psychiatric problem?  Perhaps the deeper problem is causing the performance anxiety.  Neither she, nor you, nor the vast majority of people complaining about it are qualified to express a meaningful opinion.  Your opinion is based on nothing.  

Mac's opinion is based on his own pseudoscience.

[McLaren]

What does it matter whether its performance anxiety or a deeper rooted psychiatric problem?  Perhaps the deeper problem is causing the performance anxiety.  Neither she, nor you, nor the vast majority of people complaining about it are qualified to express a meaningful opinion.  Your opinion is based on nothing.  

It matters because there is a worrying trend that is eroding evidence based psychiatry. All this wishy washy, just talk about it, everyone has a mental health issue BS detracts from those practicing psychiatry. Try talking yourself out of cardiac issue or a stroke? You can't. It is the same for psychiatry. It is a real medical discipline founded on the principles of EBM, just like all the others.

Biles should get a grip.

[Soul Requiem]

Ben

Thing is though, she isn't psychiatrically unwell so it's not comparable to a broken leg. People need to stop being conned by the conflation between feeling a but unhappy and real medical conditions.

How do you know that?  Did you pick up the c*nt baton for today?

In some ways I hope she does have a psychiatric problem. I hope she hasn't jumped on the current mental health fad and lumped in performance anxiety with psychiatry. If you had a faster heart rate before an event would you claim to have a cardiology issue?

It really is peculiar how the general public have accepted the invasion of psychiatry by pseudoscience.

It is also peculiar how the general public have all become experts in psychiatry to the extent that they can watch TV and read news reports and then accurately diagnose the individual mental wellbeing issues of famous people.

The exact same thing you're doing.

[beninho]

What does it matter whether its performance anxiety or a deeper rooted psychiatric problem?  Perhaps the deeper problem is causing the performance anxiety.  Neither she, nor you, nor the vast majority of people complaining about it are qualified to express a meaningful opinion.  Your opinion is based on nothing.  

It matters because there is a worrying trend that is eroding evidence based psychiatry. All this wishy washy, just talk about it, everyone has a mental health issue BS detracts from those practicing psychiatry. Try talking yourself out of cardiac issue or a stroke? You can't. It is the same for psychiatry. It is a real medical discipline founded on the principles of EBM, just like all the others.

Biles should get a grip.

Again, are you trying to tell a sexual abuse case what the overall impact of her sexual abuse should be? Bit weird that.

[superflyweight]

Ben

Thing is though, she isn't psychiatrically unwell so it's not comparable to a broken leg. People need to stop being conned by the conflation between feeling a but unhappy and real medical conditions.

How do you know that?  Did you pick up the c*nt baton for today?

In some ways I hope she does have a psychiatric problem. I hope she hasn't jumped on the current mental health fad and lumped in performance anxiety with psychiatry. If you had a faster heart rate before an event would you claim to have a cardiology issue?

It really is peculiar how the general public have accepted the invasion of psychiatry by pseudoscience.

It is also peculiar how the general public have all become experts in psychiatry to the extent that they can watch TV and read news reports and then accurately diagnose the individual mental wellbeing issues of famous people.

The exact same thing you're doing.

No. He's reserving his opinion and refusing to criticise because he doesn't know what is going on with Biles. None of us do.

[superflyweight]

What does it matter whether its performance anxiety or a deeper rooted psychiatric problem?  Perhaps the deeper problem is causing the performance anxiety.  Neither she, nor you, nor the vast majority of people complaining about it are qualified to express a meaningful opinion.  Your opinion is based on nothing.  

It matters because there is a worrying trend that is eroding evidence based psychiatry. All this wishy washy, just talk about it, everyone has a mental health issue BS detracts from those practicing psychiatry. Try talking yourself out of cardiac issue or a stroke? You can't. It is the same for psychiatry. It is a real medical discipline founded on the principles of EBM, just like all the others.

Biles should get a grip.

Will assume that you're trying to be a WUM and give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not really this obtuse.

[Soul Requiem]

Biles is the GOAT of female gymnastics she's capable of the near impossible and will rightly go down in history. Her form throughout qualifying was slightly off especially on the floor and that carried over into the team event, it was a crisis of confidence which is a bit on an issue for a sports person.

[McLaren]

Ben/superflyweight


I get it sounds like I am being harsh on Biles, but as I said to ben. You can feel sympathy for her situation without incorrectly labelling it as a psychiatric problem. It sucks for her but why label it psychiatric, why not an endocrinology, oncology, cardiology, orthopedic problem? Why always shat on psychiatry? Why do people feel they can make proclamations about that particular branch of medicine? Psychiatry does not deserve being how poorly respected and understood it is by the general public. And this hug and talk yourself to a cure Love sacks is just insulting to those practicing the profession. Osaka, the other tennis bottler and Biles might as well be jumping on a homeopathy bandwagon.

[JuliusHMarx]

Biles is the GOAT of female gymnastics  she's capable of the near impossible and will rightly go down in history. Her form throughout qualifying was slightly off especially on the floor and that carried over into the team event, it was a crisis of confidence which is a bit on an issue for a sports person.

Exactly - if you read her comments about it, it makes sense and seems perfectly reasonable, and her decision perfectly justified. She's not claiming to be suicidal or self-harming. She simply withdrew to protect her mental well-being and to not risk a serious injury that a total lack of confidence in her ability could cause.
Mac would make a great sports psychologist. 'Get a grip. Next.'

[super_realist]

So again, as everyone has said, it's about expectations. Which you keep arguing about. And also how do you know that someone who wins bronze wouldn't be happy with a bronze at a similar field event. It's just a wild assumption.

The gymnasts were over the moon, brought to tears of joy. Yet, no achievement nameless faceless man on the Internet says they shouldn't be. That's really odd.

How happy we're the England team coming second at the Euro's?
Remember how "happy" Murray was when Federer beat him in the Wimbledon final?

You just keep arguing the point everyone has made. It's about expectations.  

Only an absolute moron can't accept that people can and shoukd be overjoyed with a bronze or silver medal. As proven by the people being overjoyed with a bronze or silver medal. Its really very very simple.

Yes, if it is about expectation then why were England players and supporters disappointed with second? That's beyond expectation.
Shouldn't Murray have been ecstatic to be beaten by the greatest grass court player of all time? Yes, all expectation

Because those are knock-out events. Once you've made a final, of course you'll be disappointed to lose it in the immediate aftermath. That's different to an event like team gymnastics where all competitors compete at once.

Exactly.  

Ha ha ha, how does it being a knock out event affect the expectations?
That's hilarious, plus many of these Olympic events are also knockouts, so care to try again?

[superflyweight]

Ben/superflyweight


I get it sounds like I am being harsh on Biles, but as I said to ben. You can feel sympathy for her situation without incorrectly labelling it as a psychiatric problem. It sucks for her but why label it psychiatric, why not an endocrinology, oncology, cardiology, orthopedic problem? Why always shat on psychiatry? Why do people feel they can make proclamations about that particular branch of medicine?  Psychiatry does not deserve being how poorly respected and understood it is by the general public. And this hug and talk yourself to a cure Love sacks is just insulting to those practicing the profession. Osaka, the other tennis bottler and Biles might as well be jumping on a homeopathy bandwagon.

Who is labelling it as a psychiatric problem? I've seen "mental health issues" cited but that phrase has a broad church and could include deep rooted psychiatric problems as well as performance anxiety. She herself has just said that she needs to look after her mental health and that she "doesn't want to go on".

[Soul Requiem]

I personally think she's carrying an injury too, if you watch some of her performances you'll notice that her left ankle gives way on landing a lot. My one issue however is the timing of the announcements which detract away from the stellar performances of the ROC gymnasts, they won but have been barely mentioned.

[JuliusHMarx]

Ben/superflyweight


I get it sounds like I am being harsh on Biles, but as I said to ben. You can feel sympathy for her situation without incorrectly labelling it as a psychiatric problem. It sucks for her but why label it psychiatric, why not an endocrinology, oncology, cardiology, orthopedic problem? Why always shat on psychiatry? Why do people feel they can make proclamations about that particular branch of medicine?  Psychiatry does not deserve being how poorly respected and understood it is by the general public. And this hug and talk yourself to a cure Love sacks is just insulting to those practicing the profession. Osaka, the other tennis bottler and Biles might as well be jumping on a homeopathy bandwagon.

Osaka has been suffering depression for years. How is that not a psychiatric issue?

As for Biles, who is actually claiming she has a clinical psychiatric condition (unless I've missed something)?

You're objecting to demeaning a profession by demeaning individuals.

[Duty281]

So again, as everyone has said, it's about expectations. Which you keep arguing about. And also how do you know that someone who wins bronze wouldn't be happy with a bronze at a similar field event. It's just a wild assumption.

The gymnasts were over the moon, brought to tears of joy. Yet, no achievement nameless faceless man on the Internet says they shouldn't be. That's really odd.

How happy we're the England team coming second at the Euro's?
Remember how "happy" Murray was when Federer beat him in the Wimbledon final?

You just keep arguing the point everyone has made. It's about expectations.  

Only an absolute moron can't accept that people can and shoukd be overjoyed with a bronze or silver medal. As proven by the people being overjoyed with a bronze or silver medal. Its really very very simple.

Yes, if it is about expectation then why were England players and supporters disappointed with second? That's beyond expectation.
Shouldn't Murray have been ecstatic to be beaten by the greatest grass court player of all time? Yes, all expectation

Because those are knock-out events. Once you've made a final, of course you'll be disappointed to lose it in the immediate aftermath. That's different to an event like team gymnastics where all competitors compete at once.

Exactly.  

Ha ha ha, how does it being a knock out event affect the expectations?
That's hilarious, plus many of these Olympic events are also knockouts, so care to try again?

No, the point is plainly obvious. You're either on the wind-up or just can't grasp something relatively simple.

[Soul Requiem]

Ha ha ha, how does it being a knock out event affect the expectations?
That's hilarious, plus many of these Olympic events are also knockouts, so care to try again?

Losing silver medallist disappointed, winning bronze medallist happy. It's not rocket science.

[superflyweight]

So again, as everyone has said, it's about expectations. Which you keep arguing about. And also how do you know that someone who wins bronze wouldn't be happy with a bronze at a similar field event. It's just a wild assumption.

The gymnasts were over the moon, brought to tears of joy. Yet, no achievement nameless faceless man on the Internet says they shouldn't be. That's really odd.

How happy we're the England team coming second at the Euro's?
Remember how "happy" Murray was when Federer beat him in the Wimbledon final?

You just keep arguing the point everyone has made. It's about expectations.  

Only an absolute moron can't accept that people can and shoukd be overjoyed with a bronze or silver medal. As proven by the people being overjoyed with a bronze or silver medal. Its really very very simple.

Yes, if it is about expectation then why were England players and supporters disappointed with second? That's beyond expectation.
Shouldn't Murray have been ecstatic to be beaten by the greatest grass court player of all time? Yes, all expectation

Because those are knock-out events. Once you've made a final, of course you'll be disappointed to lose it in the immediate aftermath. That's different to an event like team gymnastics where all competitors compete at once.

Exactly.  

Ha ha ha, how does it being a knock out event affect the expectations?
That's hilarious, plus many of these Olympic events are also knockouts, so care to try again?

It doesn't affect the expectations - it affects how you feel immediately after the event.  If a team or individual is playing against an opponent one on one then they will obviously be disappointed by defeat in the immediate aftermath, regardless of expectations.  

If someone is competing in a multi-competitor event then they might not have that feeling of disappointment if they don't win gold - they might have expected to come third or worse, but have managed to get silver.  Or the first and second placed individuals might be head and shoulders above everyone else and the person winning bronze might be locked in a battle with others to win bronze.  I'd imagine they'd be delighted to win that battle.  

It's not that difficult and this is like having to explain human emotion to an android.

[JuliusHMarx]

I've yet to see anyone celebrate immediately after losing a taekwondo final. But I do see people celebrating immediately after finishing second in the triathlon. Do the taekwondo-ers have a winner's attitude but the triathletes have a loser's attitude?
Or could it be something different about the nature of the event?

[McLaren]

Biles should just say she bottled it then.

And yes "mental health" has become a very broad and vague term. Hence my issue. The fact you have noticed this shows you at least get what my issue is.

[superflyweight]

Biles should just say she bottled it then.

And yes "mental health" has become a very broad and vague term. Hence my issue. The fact you have noticed this shows you at least get what my issue is.

So why were you getting yourself all wound up about psychiatry then?

[McLaren]

Flyweight

Because there is a difference between how someone might feel and well defined evidence based medical conditions. The two are increasingly being conflated in the current fad whereby everyone having a rough day has to have a "mental health" issue.

[JuliusHMarx]

And yet you continue to call Osaka, who has suffered depression for years, a 'bottler', thus trivialising mental health issues, which in turn makes things worse for those who suffer from them.

[superflyweight]

Flyweight

Because there is a difference between how someone might feel and well defined evidence based medical conditions. The two are increasingly being conflated in the current fad whereby everyone having a rough day has to have a "mental health" issue.

You have absolutely no basis for your opinion that she is just having a bad day.

Seems like you are trying to conflate your own perceptions regarding a wider societal trend with an individual case in respect of which you have zero insight and in respect of which you have no basis for using a phrase like "get a grip".

[lostinwales]

I've yet to see anyone celebrate immediately after losing a taekwondo final. But I do see people celebrating immediately after finishing second in the triathlon. Do the taekwondo-ers have a winner's attitude but the triathletes have a loser's attitude?
Or could it be something different about the nature of the event?

About 30 years ago I used to do a few TKD tournaments. When you lose you are still losing a fight and you are facing someone who beat you. I think in triathlons the enemy is often the course, and completing them in a good time is an achievement itself.

[beninho]

So, people with mental health issues are just having a bad day? Someone's stuck in the past. I'd love to see one if the ignorant people go and tell Tyson Fury he doesn't have MH issues, and just needed to get a grip and stop having a bad day.

[McLaren]

Ben

Go back and find where I said anyone with a genuine medical condition is just having a bad day. I await your findings.

[JuliusHMarx]

Ben

Go back and find where I said anyone with a genuine medical condition is just having a bad day. I await your findings.

You call Osaka a bottler.

[McLaren]

I actually called the British woman a bottler. Osaka is just a garden variety whinger.

[beninho]

Ben

Go back and find where I said anyone with a genuine medical condition is just having a bad day. I await your findings.

You claimed people who are having a bad day claim mental health. Something about a fad. Just a wild assumption covering people with mh conditions.

And you have belittled Biles, someone with MH conditions, and declared she should suck it up.

[Soul Requiem]

So, people with mental health issues are just having a bad day? Someone's stuck in the past. I'd love to see one if the ignorant people go and tell Tyson Fury he doesn't have MH issues, and just needed to get a grip and stop having a bad day.

Happily, the guys a tool.

[beninho]

I cant stand Tyson Fury. Mainly for his homophobia. But I wouldn't belittle his MH issues.

[Soul Requiem]

I cant stand Tyson Fury. Mainly for his homophobia. But I wouldn't belittle his MH issues.

I'll belittle them because of his ridiculous view of the world, sometimes you reap what you sow.

[superflyweight]

I actually called the British woman a bottler. Osaka is just a garden variety whinger.

At the wind up, or just a f*ck-knuckle?

[McLaren]

Ben

Go back and find where I said anyone with a genuine medical condition is just having a bad day. I await your findings.

You claimed people who are having a bad day claim mental health. Something about a fad. Just a wild assumption covering people with mh conditions.

And you have belittled Biles, someone with MH conditions, and declared she should suck it up.

Define "mental health conditions"?

[beninho]

She has previously spoken about eing on medication whike trying to cone to terms with the sexual abuse she suffered. She has talked about her depression, and has mentioned protecting her MH as part of her withdrawing from the Olympics. Why would anyone doubt her?

[McLaren]

Ben

I would hope that by now you know why at least one person "doubted" her for pulling out?

[superflyweight]

Ben

I would hope that by now you know why at least one person "doubted" her for pulling out?

Nope.

[McLaren]

Well, not sure I can explain it any further. You either get that there is a difference between psychiatric evidence based medicine and laymen chat about "mental health" or you don't.

[beninho]

Well, not sure I can explain it any further. You either get that there is a difference between psychiatric evidence based medicine and laymen chat about "mental health" or you don't.

Do you think she has made up her MH issues?

[JuliusHMarx]

And you either get that suffering from depression and being a whinger are two different things or you don't.

[superflyweight]

Well, not sure I can explain it any further. You either get that there is a difference between psychiatric evidence based medicine and laymen chat about "mental health" or you don't.

I do, but why pick on one person who may or may not have a serious condition and use ill-judged statements to have a pop about her.  

I could just as easily use the fact that she's a young, successful woman of colour and suggest that your behaviour is born out of misogynistic racism.  But I won't as I don't know what's driving your view in much the same way that you don't know for what reason Simone Biles has chosen to withdraw.  

And with that, I leave you to your nonsense.

[beninho]

Well, not sure I can explain it any further. You either get that there is a difference between psychiatric evidence based medicine and laymen chat about "mental health" or you don't.

And she has been on medication for her MH. Any people doubting her, are, well a bit weird.

[beninho]

On my job we have to assess people's mh conditions for vulnerability if homeless. Do people claim mh issues - yep. Does that mean most people with a mh diagnosis are making it up. Nope.

[Soul Requiem]

It is possible to believe that mental health is a very real problem in society whilst also believing it to not be as widespread as is made out. If I was to make a snap judgement I'd be inclined to believe Biles but not necessarily Osaka, that is based purely on how they present themselves.

The reality is that some people will use it as an excuse when they underperform or the pressure gets to them. Not being able to handle pressure isn't in itself a mental health issue but in sport the two do seem to be amalgamating into one.

[beninho]

I think its probably more widespread then anyone imagines, but a lot of people still fall under the suck it up, or battle through brigade.  There is still a stigma attached to it.

Seeing some social media responses about Biles, or articles from Puers Morgan tells you people still don't take MH concerns seriously.

I remember reading Marcus Trescothicks autobiography, when he talks about the anxiety he suffered it tells you it can impact anyone, no matter how successful you are.

[super_realist]

I think its probably more widespread then anyone imagines, but a lot of people still fall under the suck it up, or battle through brigade.  There is still a stigma attached to it.

Seeing some social media responses about Biles, or articles from Puers Morgan tells you people still don't take MH concerns seriously.

I remember reading Marcus Trescothicks autobiography, when he talks about the anxiety he suffered it tells you it can impact anyone, no matter how successful you are.

I think the point is that many things are chalked up as being mental health, when in fact they might not be.

I think what Mac was trying to say was that bundling it all in together actually dilutes how seriously people take genuinely serious mental health issues much like bunching in wolf whistling with serious sexual assault as being in the same bracketbdoes not make them an equivalence.
Hopefully you wouldn't see those things as being the same or having the same level of impact or severity , so surely you can see there are various degrees of "mental health" and something like performance anxiety is nothing like being a schizophrenic or manic depressive.

[lostinwales]

I think its probably more widespread then anyone imagines, but a lot of people still fall under the suck it up, or battle through brigade.  There is still a stigma attached to it.

Seeing some social media responses about Biles, or articles from Puers Morgan tells you people still don't take MH concerns seriously.

I remember reading Marcus Trescothicks autobiography, when he talks about the anxiety he suffered it tells you it can impact anyone, no matter how successful you are.

Don't know if its been mentioned but the Joe Marler documentary 'big boys don't cry' is on youtube. Feel free to tell him to 'suck it up'

[beninho]

I think its probably more widespread then anyone imagines, but a lot of people still fall under the suck it up, or battle through brigade.  There is still a stigma attached to it.

Seeing some social media responses about Biles, or articles from Puers Morgan tells you people still don't take MH concerns seriously.

I remember reading Marcus Trescothicks autobiography, when he talks about the anxiety he suffered it tells you it can impact anyone, no matter how successful you are.

I think the point is that many things are chalked up as being mental health, when in fact they might not be.

I think what Mac was trying to say was that bundling it all in together actually dilutes how seriously people take genuinely serious mental health issues much like bunching in wolf whistling with serious sexual assault as being in the same bracket.
Hopefully you wouldn't see those things as being the same or having the same level of impact or severity , so surely you can see there are various degrees of "mental health" and something like performance anxiety is nothing like being a schizophrenic or manic depressive.

Like what? What is chalked as MH that shouldn't be?

If someone suffers anxiety or depression and get low dosage of anti depressant it doesn't dilute someone who has ptsd or schizophrenia.

Of course there are various degrees, no one has said otherwise. But any MH issue can or will impact an individual.

[super_realist]

I don't think for example performance anxiety is a mental health issue, or certainly not a serious one. I don't think facing the media after a loss is something you have to protect your mental health from.

It seeks to be thrown about too readily these days and often by people who haven't had it confirmed that their issue is indeed mental health.

[McLaren]

At least someone gets it.

Although I don't really like the wolf whistle analogy. That is gross behaviour and signifies more worrying misogynist tendencies.

For those struggling, here is how to think about it. Would whatever the person is suffering be treated by a psychiatrist and does it fit a well described medical condition?

If it's just someone feeling worried or having a stressful time then please stop calling it a mental health issue. Think of a new name. You wouldn't randomly add conditions to other well established fields of medicine so why do it with psychiatry?

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