Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

Ben Leicester have been fortunate to find wealthy owners who saved us from a deal of trouble but they could not be accused of throwing stupid money around and disregarding the fans.The PL winning team was assembled from a bunch of frees ,has beens and cheap buys I think Ulloa was the top buy at about £9m.What they then did as some players moved on for big money was start throwing some of that money about to try to maintain position with varying degrees of success.The Chairman gives away free beer and cakes on his birthday and has given a lot to local organisations including a childrens hospital ,We have been very very lucky.
I think the German teams have a different voting structure where fans have a big say.

[beninho]

How is anxiety not related to mental health? It may be mild or it may lead to issues like Marcus Trescothick, where he broke down on tour with England, and even at the airport before boarding the plane. Its very much linked to MH though.

[super_realist]

At least someone gets it.

Although I don't really like the wolf whistle analogy. That is gross behaviour and signifies more worrying misogynist tendencies.

For those struggling, here is how to think about it. Would whatever the person is suffering be treated by a psychiatrist and does it fit a well described medical condition?

If it's just someone feeling worried or having a stressful time then please stop calling it a mental health issue. Think of a new name. You wouldn't randomly add conditions to other well established fields of medicine so why do it with psychiatry?

The point is Mac that if someone claims to have been the victim of sexual assault, you don't expect wolf whistling to be cited as the crime. It's a fairly trivial thing Co pared to what sexual assault would more typically entail.

[JuliusHMarx]

Small things, that most people would consider normal parts of daily life, can act as triggers for severe anxiety and depression, usually because of some deeper, underlying issue.

[beninho]

At least someone gets it.

Although I don't really like the wolf whistle analogy. That is gross behaviour and signifies more worrying misogynist tendencies.

For those struggling, here is how to think about it. Would whatever the person is suffering be treated by a psychiatrist and does it fit a well described medical condition?

If it's just someone feeling worried or having a stressful time then please stop calling it a mental health issue. Think of a new name. You wouldn't randomly add conditions to other well established fields of medicine so why do it with psychiatry?

So, its only mh if you are prescribed medication?

[super_realist]

How is anxiety not related to mental health?  It may be mild or it may lead to issues like Marcus Trescothick, where he broke down on tour with England, and even at the airport before boarding the plane. Its very much linked to MH though.

If that's the case Ben, then whenever someone feels stressed they are having a mental health instance.
That's why the term is used inappropriately.

We could be nervous, stressed, anxious, sad, confused, worried etc at any point of the  day, but that doesn't follow that we are having a mental health incident. Most of those things are just parts of life, and we deal with them appropriately.
I would say that when it becomes a mental health issue is when it requires treatment or help or is something considerably limiting to one's life.

[beninho]

How is anxiety not related to mental health?  It may be mild or it may lead to issues like Marcus Trescothick, where he broke down on tour with England, and even at the airport before boarding the plane. Its very much linked to MH though.

If that's the case Ben, then whenever someone feels stressed they are having a mental health instance.
That's why the term is used inappropriately.

We could be nervous, stressed, anxious, sad, confused, worried etc at any point of the  day, but that doesn't follow that we are having a mental health incident. Most of those things are just parts of life, and we deal with them appropriately.
I would say that when it becomes a mental health issue is when it requires treatment or help or is something considerably limiting to one's life.

But stress can lead to a mental breakdown can't it?

[JuliusHMarx]

Would whatever the person is suffering be treated by a psychiatrist and does it fit a well described medical condition?

Yes, in case of Osaka. Calling her a bottler/whinger/whatever trivialises the very thing you claim to be taking so seriously.

[super_realist]

How is anxiety not related to mental health?  It may be mild or it may lead to issues like Marcus Trescothick, where he broke down on tour with England, and even at the airport before boarding the plane. Its very much linked to MH though.

If that's the case Ben, then whenever someone feels stressed they are having a mental health instance.
That's why the term is used inappropriately.

We could be nervous, stressed, anxious, sad, confused, worried etc at any point of the  day, but that doesn't follow that we are having a mental health incident. Most of those things are just parts of life, and we deal with them appropriately.
I would say that when it becomes a mental health issue is when it requires treatment or help or is something considerably limiting to one's life.

But stress can lead to a mental breakdown can't it?

Yes it can, but alcohol can lead to alcoholism, but it usually doesn't. Going out and getting pissed doesn't mean you're suffering from an alcohol issue, just as being stressed doesn't mean you're having a mental health episode.
Aren't we in danger of trivialising actual mental health by saying everything g is mental health?

[beninho]

I think we are all sort of agreeing though that looking after your mental health is important. Though, as we all have different brains we are all in very different situations.

Realist may be able to laugh off a wolf whistle, someone with a history of sexual abuse, it may trigger a mental health crisis.

I read an article on Marler after his name was mentioned. Very interesting, obviously had undiagnosed mh and then saw a psychiatrist. But he had MH issues before he was prescribed anti depressants.

[super_realist]

I think we are all sort of agreeing though that looking after your mental health is important.  Though, as we all have different brains we are all in very different situations.

Realist may be able to laugh off a wolf whistle, someone with a history of sexual abuse, it may trigger a mental health crisis.

I read an article on Marler after his name was mentioned. Very interesting, obviously had undiagnosed mh and then saw a psychiatrist. But he had MH issues before he was prescribed anti depressants.

Of course looking after your mental health is important, but it doesn't mean that every time our feelings are out of balance that it means we are suffering a mental health issue.

The point being that it now appears the use of the term is over used, poorly defined and open to abuse because it can't be queried.

[superflyweight]

I think we are all sort of agreeing though that looking after your mental health is important.  Though, as we all have different brains we are all in very different situations.

Realist may be able to laugh off a wolf whistle, someone with a history of sexual abuse, it may trigger a mental health crisis.

I read an article on Marler after his name was mentioned. Very interesting, obviously had undiagnosed mh and then saw a psychiatrist. But he had MH issues before he was prescribed anti depressants.

Of course looking after your mental health is important, but it doesn't mean that every time our feelings are out of balance that it means we are suffering a mental health issue.

The point being that it now appears the use of the term is over used, poorly defined and open to abuse because it can't be queried.

... and rather than have a measured response to someone claiming to be suffering mental health issues, some people tell them to "get a grip" when they have absolutely no insight into the person or the condition.

[super_realist]

That was Mac, not me, but there are undoubtedly lead singers using it as a convenient excuse.

[beninho]

How is anxiety not related to mental health?  It may be mild or it may lead to issues like Marcus Trescothick, where he broke down on tour with England, and even at the airport before boarding the plane. Its very much linked to MH though.

If that's the case Ben, then whenever someone feels stressed they are having a mental health instance.
That's why the term is used inappropriately.

We could be nervous, stressed, anxious, sad, confused, worried etc at any point of the  day, but that doesn't follow that we are having a mental health incident. Most of those things are just parts of life, and we deal with them appropriately.
I would say that when it becomes a mental health issue is when it requires treatment or help or is something considerably limiting to one's life.

But stress can lead to a mental breakdown can't it?

Yes it can, but alcohol can lead to alcoholism, but it usually doesn't. Going out and getting pissed doesn't mean you're suffering from an alcohol issue, just as being stressed doesn't mean you're  having a mental health episode.
Aren't we in danger of trivialising actual mental health by saying everything g is mental health?

Going out and getting smashed could quite easily be someone with an alcohol issue. Same with suffering from stress, one person who is fine with it is different to someone else which could trigger them into a breakdown. It's not a set rule. And actual mental health is what impacts an individual in a certain way.

[beninho]

I think we are all sort of agreeing though that looking after your mental health is important.  Though, as we all have different brains we are all in very different situations.

Realist may be able to laugh off a wolf whistle, someone with a history of sexual abuse, it may trigger a mental health crisis.

I read an article on Marler after his name was mentioned. Very interesting, obviously had undiagnosed mh and then saw a psychiatrist. But he had MH issues before he was prescribed anti depressants.

Of course looking after your mental health is important, but it doesn't mean that every time our feelings are out of balance that it means we are suffering a mental health issue.

The point being that it now appears the use of the term is over used, poorly defined and open to abuse because it can't be queried.

Everyone is different. You feeling out of balance could be entirely different to soneone else. And who the hell woukd query it and why, anyway.

[super_realist]

Why would they query it? Because its an obvious point of abuse.

By your own admission you said you were required to make a judgement on someone's "vulnerability" so clearly someone at your work thinks that just claiming mental health isn't good enough to actually confirm you have issues.

[beninho]

Why would they query it? Because its an obvious point of abuse.

Give me a reason, you woukd openly tell someone you think they are lying about their mental health. Not on am anonymous forum. But as a manager ? Would you do that?

[super_realist]

Why would they query it? Because its an obvious point of abuse.

Give me a reason, you woukd openly tell someone you think they are lying about their mental health. Not on am anonymous forum. But as a manager ? Would you do that?

As I've just mentioned above in an edit if you care to read it, and I didn't say that you have to openly tell someone they are lying, you are king of misrepresenting and sensationalist accusations.

I wouldn't accept on someone's word they've been sexually assaulted either, would you?

[beninho]

Vulnerability is vulnerable die to the mh issues if homeless. Not whether they do or don't have them. Again, it comes back to the individuals involved. Suffering from MH doesn't mean you would be unable to cope if homeless.

I wouldn't question anyone if they said they were sexually assaulted. I'm not a policeman.

[super_realist]

I don't mean question as in physically ask them, I mean remain skeptical.

[McLaren]

Ben

Mental health isn't some postmodern idea you can bend to you or anyone else's will. It is a collection of medical conditions which are well described and have well researched diagnostic criteria. I just can't stand the wishy washy way you and others have started to talk about what is essentially an area of science.

[McLaren]

Anyway, we were all wrong.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57986166

It was the "twisties".

[JuliusHMarx]

Anyway, we were all wrong.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57986166

It was the "twisties".

From that article "Former gymnast Jacoby Miles wrote on Instagram after one particularly bad bout of the twisties mid-air, she broke her neck on landing.

"It only took one time of getting lost... in the air for me to break my neck and leave me paralysed, most likely for life," she wrote."

But Mac, our resident psychiatric expert, reckons all Biles needed to do was 'get a grip' and everything would have been fine.

[beninho]

Ben

Mental health isn't some postmodern idea you can bend to you or anyone else's will. It is a collection of medical conditions which are well described and have well researched diagnostic criteria. I just can't stand the wishy washy way you and others have started to talk about what is essentially an area of science.

Let me know when you deal with people who have diagnosed and non diagnosed MH conditions.

[McLaren]

Let me know when you become a psychiatrist and are able to distinguish between the two.

[beninho]

Between the 2 what?

Diagnosed or undiagnosed. Do you think you cant tell if someone has mh issues from meeting soneone?

[JuliusHMarx]

Let me know when you become a psychiatrist and are able to distinguish between the two.

Let me know when you become a psychiatrist and are able to give expert advice like 'Get a grip' and 'Stop whinging' to your patients.

[McLaren]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

[beninho]

Does someone only have MH issues if they've been diagnosed?

[JuliusHMarx]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

[super_realist]

Between the 2 what?

Diagnosed or undiagnosed.  Do you think you cant tell if someone has mh issues from meeting soneone?

No, no o e aimed they did, but then do you think someone knows when they have mental health issues, or is it now like gender and you can just decide to have them?

The entire point of this discussion is that claiming "mental health" as a reason for something seems to have become de rigeur for almost all situations that someone might find "challenging" or "difficult"
Does it mean people don't have mental health issues? Of course not, but does it mean they do? Of course it doesnt. There's certainly people hiding behind it as an excuse and it has become as ubiquitous as "back pain" used to be.

[super_realist]

Between the 2 what?

Diagnosed or undiagnosed.  Do you think you cant tell if someone has mh issues from meeting soneone?

No, you can't necessarily tell that someone has mental health by meeting them, that's as silly as claiming you know if someone is guilty of a crime just by looking at them. . A psychiatrist might be able to, but you can't, and I can't.

[super_realist]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

How is it clear she's struggling with a mental health issue and not just suffering from a bout of bad form? How did you determine this? What led you to the conclusion she was suffering a mental health issue from your layman position?

[JuliusHMarx]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

How is clear she's struggling with a mental health issue and not just suffering from a bout of bad form? What led you to the conclusion she was suffering a mental health issue?

Everything she said about it afterwards.
Note that neither she, nor I, are claiming she's struggling with mental illness to an extent that clinical intervention is required.

[super_realist]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

How is clear she's struggling with a mental health issue and not just suffering from a bout of bad form? What led you to the conclusion she was suffering a mental health issue?

Everything she said about it afterwards.
Note that neither she, nor I, are claiming she's struggling with mental illness to an extent that clinical intervention is required.

So there you have it, say you've got mental health issues and you have.

[beninho]

Between the 2 what?

Diagnosed or undiagnosed.  Do you think you cant tell if someone has mh issues from meeting soneone?

No, you can't necessarily tell that someone has mental health by meeting them, that's as silly as claiming you know if someone is guilty of a crime just by looking at them. . A psychiatrist might be able to, but you can't, and I can't.

So, if you work with rough sleepers, and come across soneone with similar traits to other people. You deal with him alongside someone from a rough sleeper support team from local NHS Trust. You cant make a judgement on whether they would appear to have MH issues?

[beninho]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

How is clear she's struggling with a mental health issue and not just suffering from a bout of bad form? What led you to the conclusion she was suffering a mental health issue?

Everything she said about it afterwards.
Note that neither she, nor I, are claiming she's struggling with mental illness to an extent that clinical intervention is required.

So there you have it, say you've got mental health issues and you have.

Can you only have mh issues I you are prescribed medication or diagnosed?

[super_realist]

Now you're adding caveats to your claim.

YOU can't know if someone has mental health issues just by meeting them. Some will be obvious like Greta Thundberg for instance, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to see mental health illness of everyone.

I'm sure you'll all know someone who has mental health issues that you had no clue about at all until you found out some other way.

[JuliusHMarx]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

How is clear she's struggling with a mental health issue and not just suffering from a bout of bad form? What led you to the conclusion she was suffering a mental health issue?

Everything she said about it afterwards.
Note that neither she, nor I, are claiming she's struggling with mental illness to an extent that clinical intervention is required.

So there you have it, say you've got mental health issues and you have.

Do you think that choosing to do, or not do, something in order to protect your mental health isn't justifiable unless you have a diagnosable mental illness? Or that it is somehow claiming that you have one?

[super_realist]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

How is clear she's struggling with a mental health issue and not just suffering from a bout of bad form? What led you to the conclusion she was suffering a mental health issue?

Everything she said about it afterwards.
Note that neither she, nor I, are claiming she's struggling with mental illness to an extent that clinical intervention is required.

So there you have it, say you've got mental health issues and you have.

Can you only have mh issues I you are prescribed medication or diagnosed?

No, but just saying you have mental health issues, doesn't mean you have, that's the whole point here which you seem incapable of acknowledging and is the entire crux of Mac's argument.

You seem willing to accept whatever someone claiming mental health issues without thinking twice.

[beninho]

Now you're adding caveats to your claim.

YOU can't know if someone has mental health issues just by meeting them. Some will be obvious like Greta Thundberg for instance, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to see mental health illness of everyone.

I'm sure you'll all know someone who has mental health issues that you had no clue about at all until you found out some other way.

No caveats. I've met people who clearly have undiagnosed mh issues. You can make judgements on people.

[beninho]

This is what I have been banging on about. Without any medical knowledge you seem to think it is possible to just spend a bit of time with someone and make a diagnosis.

No - it is you that is doing that. You have literally called Biles a 'bottler' - congratulations on your diagnosis. All I'm doing is showing sympathy to people who are clearly struggling with a mental issue. At no point did I say mental illness, except in the case of Osaka, who has suffered from depression.
You, on the other hand, make light of, and dismiss peoples' troubles in a cold and trivialising manner. Your lack of compassion is clear.

How is clear she's struggling with a mental health issue and not just suffering from a bout of bad form? What led you to the conclusion she was suffering a mental health issue?

Everything she said about it afterwards.
Note that neither she, nor I, are claiming she's struggling with mental illness to an extent that clinical intervention is required.

So there you have it, say you've got mental health issues and you have.

Can you only have mh issues I you are prescribed medication or diagnosed?

No, but just saying you have mental health issues, doesn't mean you have, that's the whole point here which you seem incapable of acknowledging and is the entire crux of Mac's argument.

You seem willing to accept whatever someone claiming mental health issues without thinking twice.

But we know Biles has been prescribed medication fir MH issues in the recent past. She has a history of mh issues. You don't think she us aware of her health?

[JuliusHMarx]

Let me put it this way. A person has spent their whole adult life working towards something, with a huge level of success, then suddenly says - I can't do this anymore. Mentally I can no longer deal with it and I need to stop doing it to protect my mental health, even though it's sacrificing something I've been working towards tirelessly for the last 4 years.

Is it a better response to say -
1. I have no sympathy, she's a bottler, she should get a grip and get on with it and fingers crossed won't break her neck. She might even be lying.
2. That's a real shame, she's clearly struggling mentally. We can't imagine the pressure she must be under. Good on her for taking the brave decision and also for being brave enough to open up about it.

Which response shows more compassion and understanding of what we know about the situation?

[super_realist]

Now you're adding caveats to your claim.

YOU can't know if someone has mental health issues just by meeting them. Some will be obvious like Greta Thundberg for instance, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to see mental health illness of everyone.

I'm sure you'll all know someone who has mental health issues that you had no clue about at all until you found out some other way.

No caveats. I've met people who clearly have undiagnosed mh issues. You can make judgements on people.

But somehow with no experience at all you can personally tell if they have mental health issues, how very humble of you.

[super_realist]

Let me put it this way. A person has spent their whole adult life working towards something, with a huge level of success, then suddenly says - I can't do this anymore. Mentally I can no longer deal with it and I need to stop doing it to protect my mental health, even though it's sacrificing something I've been working towards tirelessly for the last 4 years.

Is it a better response to say -
1. I have no sympathy, she's a bottler, she should get a grip and get on with it and fingers crossed won't break her neck. She might even be lying.
2. That's a real shame, she's clearly struggling mentally. We can't imagine the pressure she must be under. Good on her for taking the brave decision and also for being brave enough to open up about it.

Which response shows more compassion and understanding of what we know about the situation?

You don't KNOW she's struggling mentally, that's the point.
Prior medication doesn't mean she currently is, and you are not equipped to state she is.

By the way, I haven't called anyone a bottler or said she should get a grip, my only point is that the cries of "mental health" seem to be raised very easily these days and are accepted without exception.

[JuliusHMarx]

I don't know she is struggling mentally. She has said that she is, and I choose to believe she isn't lying. Do you think she's lying?

[super_realist]

Well that's the point, this self diagnosis and claims of mental health are all too easy to state these days.

Besides I'm not even talking about individual cases. I don't know Biles, I don't follow gymnastics and I don't really care whether she has genuine mental health issues or not, my point was that "mental health" as a reason is used very readily these days, and potentially at times when it isn't actual a mental health issue but just a convenient way to stop further intrusion.

Isn't that possible too as well as people actually having mental health problems?

[beninho]

[quote="super_realist"]

Now you're adding caveats to your claim.

YOU can't know if someone has mental health issues just by meeting them. Some will be obvious like Greta Thundberg for instance, but that doesn't mean you'll be able to see mental health illness of everyone.

I'm sure you'll all know someone who has mental health issues that you had no clue about at all until you found out some other way.

No caveats. I've met people who clearly have undiagnosed mh issues. You can make judgements on people.

But somehow with no experience at all you can personally tell if they have mental health issues, how very humble of you. [/quote

I work with single people, generally with some form of mental health concern. It helps to give an idea when you meet other similar people.

[super_realist]

You can't always tell though. You see people who appear perfectly healthy but deep down have mental health issues, but you are arrogant enough to think you can just sit down with someone and you can tell, like I said, really humble.

[JuliusHMarx]

Well that's the point, this self diagnosis and claims of mental health are all too easy to state these days.

Besides I'm not even talking about individual cases. I don't know Biles, I don't follow gymnastics and I don't really care whether she has genuine mental health issues or not, my point was that "mental health" as a reason is used very readily these days, and potentially at times when it isn't actual a mental health issue but just a convenient way to stop further intrusion.

Isn't that possible too as well as people actually having mental health problems?

I haven't disagreed with that. I think mental well-being would be a better term than mental health - to distinguish it, in a modern-usage way, from the health vs illness terminology.

However I am mainly talking about individual cases, mainly because of Mac's reaction to Biles and Osaka.

When a golfer gets the yips, is that a mental health issue? Presumably if they were mentally healthier they wouldn't get them.

[beninho]

Well that's the point, this self diagnosis and claims of mental health are all too easy to state these days.

Besides I'm not even talking about individual cases. I don't know Biles, I don't follow gymnastics and I don't really care whether she has genuine mental health issues or not, my point was that "mental health" as a reason is used very readily these days, and potentially at times when it isn't actual a mental health issue but just a convenient way to stop further intrusion.

Isn't that possible too as well as people actually having mental health problems?

So, you think people are making things up? Whike that may be the case, what benefit will it be?

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