Alun Wyn Jones, Lions Captain - The Thread

[Sgt_Pooly]

First topic message reminder :

A thread to to debate the qualities (or lack of depending on your standpoint) of AWJ as Lions captain.

[Rugby Fan]

Things with referees will change when the fans come back in and start jeering the refs, or doing the slow clap or what ever.

They will have nowhere to hide when the fans are back, so you might see an upturn in their performances.

One of the few benefits of this terrible pandemic is the way referees are no longer default homers. I'd rather we didn't revert to that. It's bound to happen, mind you.

[doctor_grey]

Things with referees will change when the fans come back in and start jeering the refs, or doing the slow clap or what ever.

They will have nowhere to hide when the fans are back, so you might see an upturn in their performances.

One of the few benefits of this terrible pandemic is the way referees are no longer default homers. I'd rather we didn't revert to that. It's bound to happen, mind you.

Look at you two. Dragging this thread off the topic to the more benign pastures of the referees....

[BigTrevsbigmac]

It’s quite possible that there will be more than one captain.
AWJs was named tour captain & Gats said the tour captain has to prove his form to be Team Captain.
If Henderson outplays AWJs in the warm ups. There is a natural Team Captain. A great ball carrier to.

[Old Man]

The Ryder Cup has a non playing captain, reading as to what Gatland said AWJ will still have to prove his worth on field.

He obviously selected AWJ for his leadership on and off the field. It is a player he has worked with extensively for a long time, he knows what he gets in AWJ.

There is a lot of water to go under the bridge before its conclusion, the likelyhood of another captain due to form, injury or sticking a hand up is very likely.

But for now, AWJ is the captain, whether a popular decision or not.

[doctor_grey]

I think AWJ is far from an unpopular choice. Most England supporters would not want to see Farrell as captain and I think it is difficult to captain a team from fullback. Amongst current team captains that leaves AWJ. He will be fine.

[Rugby Fan]

There's a lot of support for AWJ as captain. There are also doubts as to whether he will be a first choice lock.

It's hardly the first time for that kind of debate. South Africa had it 10 years ago when Bismarck du Plessis was the best hooker in the world and John Smit the best captain. De Villiers would move Smit to tight head, when there were better players in that position too.

Talking of hookers, AWJ as captain and James Ryan left at home, has echoes of the 1983 Lions tour, when Ciaran Fitzgerald was named captain, and Peter Wheeler not selected.

AWJ is nothing like Mike Brearley. Brearley was a master strategist, who didn't deserve his place in the team as a batsmen. There's no question AWJ is good enough to be a Lions lock today. I doubt his importance as a captain is as great as Brearley's was to England cricket, but it is not negligible. A Lions tour seems to need a leadership figure, and he plays that role.

The only outstanding question is whether the Lions can get enough out AWJ over 80 minutes to justify keeping him on.

There will be at least one lock on the bench, and probably two. One of the starting locks will have to change, and there are only three realistic options. AWJ's starting partner will go off; AWJ's starting partner will move to the flank, and a flanker will go off; or AWJ will go off.

You'd imagine Gatland would prefer to investigate the first two options but he surely won't have ruled out the third.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I know it's been mentioned, but I do question if AWJ is going to be on the 80. It's tough going in SA and even those at the peak of fitness can struggle. I can see a set up of something like this:

4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Beirne

19. Lawes/Henderson
20. Curry

[BigTrevsbigmac]

I know it's been mentioned, but I do question if AWJ is going to be on the 80. It's tough going in SA and even those at the peak of fitness can struggle. I can see a set up of something like this:

4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Beirne

19. Lawes/Henderson
20. Curry

Id swap Beirne for Curry as Beirne can cover both lock & flanker which would give more flexibility.

[Soul Requiem]

I'd be very surprised if it isn't a 6-2 on the bench so expecting;

4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Beirne

19. Henderson
20. Lawes
21. Watson

[No 7&1/2]

Yup. Exactly that. And then watch as Bigger and Farrell are injured and we play with Connor Murray as fly half.

[geoff999rugby]

Id go with

4 AWJ
5 Itoje
6 Beirne
8 Falateau
7 Curry

20 Henderson
21 Watson

I do think Henderson is pushing AWJ hard for a starting slot

I also think Beirne, Watson, Curry is a real toss up and would be happy with any of them starting

[No 7&1/2]

We could whack 2 of them in midfield.

[geoff999rugby]

I thought that was Sam Simmonds job

[LordDowlais]

I know it's been mentioned, but I do question if AWJ is going to be on the 80. It's tough going in SA and even those at the peak of fitness can struggle.

I love it when this gets bandied about, I know he is older, but what evidence do you have that he is not as fit as any other player ?

He always plays the full game for Wales and his region, so why would it be tougher for him in SA than any other player ? Also, what evidence do you have that he is not at the peak of his fitness ? In fact, due him being older and wiser, perhaps he has more nous to be able to deal with this tough South African environment.

I don't want to cause a scrap, I am genuinely intrigued how you, and others on here come to these conclusions.

[Soul Requiem]

2017 Lions

Test One; 47 minutes
Test Two; 59 minutes
Test Three; 50 minutes

[mikey_dragon]

I know it's been mentioned, but I do question if AWJ is going to be on the 80. It's tough going in SA and even those at the peak of fitness can struggle. I can see a set up of something like this:

4. AWJ
5. Itoje
6. Beirne

19. Lawes/Henderson
20. Curry

More often than not he plays the full 80. He was subbed against Scotland in the 6N, and perhaps one other game. That never usually happens, so it's probably a sign he'll play less minutes from now on. I was saying he should have played less rugby back then, but coaches were reluctant to bring him off.

[LordDowlais]

2017 Lions

Test One; 47 minutes
Test Two; 59 minutes
Test Three; 50 minutes

Yes but that was years ago, on a tour where he was injured before hand.

I just think it's a lazy way for certain members to have a pop.

Why not look at his most recent playing minutes, where he has played 80+ mins every game.

[doctor_grey]

I don't think it matters if AWJ goes the full 80 or not. During the back half of Dylan Hartley's successful run as England captain, he was usually subbed out after 60 minutes.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I know it's been mentioned, but I do question if AWJ is going to be on the 80. It's tough going in SA and even those at the peak of fitness can struggle.

I love it when this gets bandied about, I know he is older, but what evidence do you have that he is not as fit as any other player ?

He always plays the full game for Wales and his region, so why would it be tougher for him in SA than any other player ? Also, what evidence do you have that he is not at the peak of his fitness ? In fact, due him being older and wiser, perhaps he has more nous to be able to deal with this tough South African environment.

I don't want to cause a scrap, I am genuinely intrigued how you, and others on here come to these conclusions.

Take deep breaths.....in.....out.......

Nothing concrete, just from personal experience and general evidence that a 35yo rugby player perhaps doesn't have the endurance of say a 25yo.

SA can get quite warm and humid and the pitches are generally hard, this can take it's toll. 4/5 players in the front 5 will 90% of the time be replaced at some point in the game, I would generally expect the 35yo to replaced before one of the 20 somethings.

I'm also not suggesting he's less fit, it's more than just fitness. In the military, I would pride myself on being quicker and being able to run further than guys....and I did, most of the time. Put us on a rugby/football pitch though and I wouldn't be able to keep up.

Just throwing it out there...no facts, no slander, just an opinion.

[No 7&1/2]

I mean if he's lining up with Itoje as most people are going with i dont think it's outrageous to say Itoje is much more likely to be kept on the pitch for 80 than Jones is. After all to keep the logic when itoje ever subbed?

[Soul Requiem]

I mean if he's lining up with Itoje as most people are going with i dont think it's outrageous to say Itoje is much more likely to be kept on the pitch for 80 than Jones is. After all to keep the logic when itoje ever subbed?

The last time I can find was against Ireland back in 2019 when he was injured minutes after Kruis was subbed.

[LordDowlais]

Take deep breaths.....in.....out.......

Why ?

Nothing concrete, just from personal experience and general evidence that a 35yo rugby player perhaps doesn't have the endurance of say a 25yo.

Well thets put it this way, I am 44 years old, and I still get picked, and play in front of young kids half my age for my football team.

With all the fitness regimes, and training a professional player goes through these days, then I do not think fitness and stamina are an issue, now if you were to say he carries more knocks at his age then fair enough, but there is nothing what so ever to question about his fitness.

It's just a lazy analogy bandied about on here who are disappointed he has been picked as captain.

SA can get quite warm and humid and the pitches are generally hard, this can take it's toll. 4/5 players in the front 5 will 90% of the time be replaced at some point in the game, I would generally expect the 35yo to replaced before one of the 20 somethings.

I'm also not suggesting he's less fit, it's more than just fitness. In the military, I would pride myself on being quicker and being able to run further than guys....and I did, most of the time. Put us on a rugby/football pitch though and I wouldn't be able to keep up.

Your talking as though he is ready for the scrap heap.

Thank god you are not my doctor. You would put me out to pasture by now.

Just throwing it out there...no facts, no slander, just an opinion.

Good man.

After all, thats why we are all on here, I hate it when people try and win the forum.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I don't understand why you're getting so defensive about the possibility that AWJ may be subbed LD. It doesn't make him less of a player.......top players get subbed too, even McCaw was subbed in 20% of his games for NZ.

Personally, I hope he stays on the pitch for the 80, I wouldn't like to see Farrell getting the armband.

[geoff999rugby]

Its a fair point, as its a simple fact of life that the older you get the less able you are to play at the highest level.

If it wasn't we would have John Jefferies and Fergus Slattery clearing out a ruck, Gareth Edwards getting his hands on the ball from the resultant mayhem and swinging out a wide pass for David Duckham to score.

Why not they were all good enough - to start to look critically at someone in their mid 30s at this level is plain common sense.

[LordDowlais]

I don't understand why you're getting so defensive about the possibility that AWJ may be subbed LD. It doesn't make him less of a player.......top players get subbed too, even McCaw was subbed in 20% of his games for NZ.

Personally, I hope he stays on the pitch for the 80, I wouldn't like to see Farrell getting the armband.

Im not getting defensive, I just genuinely like to know why people think he is not fit enough to play 80mins, thats all. If he gets subbed, then he gets subbed, next one to captain then would presumably be Hogg.

But he is more than capable of playing 80+ mins as he has proven for Wales and Ospreys.

[LordDowlais]

Its a fair point, as its a simple fact of life that the older you get the less able you are to play at the highest level.

If it wasn't we would have John Jefferies and Fergus Slattery clearing out a ruck, Gareth Edwards getting his hands on the ball from the resultant mayhem and swinging out a wide pass for David Duckham to score.

Why not they were all good enough - to start to look critically at someone in their mid 30s at this level is plain common sense.

We are not talking about 80 years olds though, we are talking about a 35 year old, who has been coached by numerous fitness coaches throughout his career.

[mikey_dragon]

I don't understand why you're getting so defensive

It probably has a lot to do with AWJ and his supporters often getting personal attacks on here from certain posters. I don't think he will play the full 80 in all tests if I'm honest, not a slight on him but it might just not be physically possible - I don't think it's controversial to discuss that. I can't see Farrell being the other captain for the tests, but I'm not sure who else it could be.

[LordDowlais]

I don't understand why you're getting so defensive

It probably has a lot to do with AWJ and his supporters often getting personal attacks on here from certain posters. I don't think he will play the full 80 in all tests if I'm honest, not a slight on him but it might just not be physically possible - I don't think it's controversial to discuss that. I can't see Farrell being the other captain for the tests, but I'm not sure who else it could be.

If he comes off, I would have thought Hogg would be captain.

Also, if being 35 is now classed as being old and over the hill, then god help us all.

[No 7&1/2]

On a broader note everyone who takes to the pitch is generally fit enough to last 80 minutes. They may not be as effective but they'll be there at the end. See Vunipola blowing out his backside in the Aus tour as the bench was ignored. I really see no controversy to say Jones won't be on the pitch all the time. As I said starting with Itoje then its not going to be Maro going off, more likely a 6 2 bench and Maro going to play in the back row if anything.

[mikey_dragon]

I don't understand why you're getting so defensive

It probably has a lot to do with AWJ and his supporters often getting personal attacks on here from certain posters. I don't think he will play the full 80 in all tests if I'm honest, not a slight on him but it might just not be physically possible - I don't think it's controversial to discuss that. I can't see Farrell being the other captain for the tests, but I'm not sure who else it could be.

If he comes off, I would have thought Hogg would be captain.

Also, if being 35 is now classed as being old and over the hill, then god help us all.

Yeah probably, unless he's snubbed for Williams. Gatland loves a good snubbing...

Well in rugby terms yes, that's a long time for the body to get battered every week by huge and physical blokes. It's mostly islanders who can play that long, from what I can tell. I don't think AWJ is over the hill but in the 6N I wanted him to spend a bit less time on the field so we can plan for the future.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I don't understand why you're getting so defensive

It probably has a lot to do with AWJ and his supporters often getting personal attacks on here from certain posters. I don't think he will play the full 80 in all tests if I'm honest, not a slight on him but it might just not be physically possible - I don't think it's controversial to discuss that. I can't see Farrell being the other captain for the tests, but I'm not sure who else it could be.

If he comes off, I would have thought Hogg would be captain.

Also, if being 35 is now classed as being old and over the hill, then god help us all.

In all seriousness, you don't think 35 is quite old in professional rugby terms?

If you genuinely don't.....take a look through international squads and tell me how many 35yo you see per squad, you ma be surprised that it's actually not that many.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Here's a heads up....34 or over:

England - 0
Scotland - 1 (WP Nel - 35)
Ireland - 0
France - 0
Wales - 2 (AWJ - 35, Owens - 34)
Italy - 0
Australia - 0
New Zealand - 1 (Coles - 34)

It would appear that 35 is actually not quite the norm in international rugby......

[Guest]

On a broader note everyone who takes to the pitch is generally fit enough to last 80 minutes. They may not be as effective but they'll be there at the end. See Vunipola blowing out his backside in the Aus tour as the bench was ignored. I really see no controversy to say Jones won't be on the pitch all the time. As I said starting with Itoje then its not going to be Maro going off, more likely a 6 2 bench and Maro going to play in the back row if anything.

That's not the 'controversy' though. It's the insinuation that he can't last 80 minutes when in fact he regularly does. I'm pretty sure no one has an issue with any player being substituted. Happens multiple times every game.

[Guest]

Here's a heads up....34 or over:

England - 0
Scotland - 1 (WP Nel - 35)
Ireland - 0
France - 0
Wales - 2 (AWJ - 35, Owens - 34)
Italy - 0
Australia - 0
New Zealand - 1 (Coles - 34)

It would appear that 35 is actually not quite the norm in international rugby......

Did anyone claim it was the norm?! Jeez

[No 7&1/2]

On a broader note everyone who takes to the pitch is generally fit enough to last 80 minutes. They may not be as effective but they'll be there at the end. See Vunipola blowing out his backside in the Aus tour as the bench was ignored. I really see no controversy to say Jones won't be on the pitch all the time. As I said starting with Itoje then its not going to be Maro going off, more likely a 6 2 bench and Maro going to play in the back row if anything.

That's not the 'controversy' though.  It's the insinuation that he can't last 80 minutes when in fact he regularly does.  I'm pretty sure no one has an issue with any player being substituted.  Happens multiple times every game.  

Don't think anyone is insinuating that he can't last 80 mins either, merely that you normally bring fresh legs on. If Mako can last 80 or Dan Cole can do the stretch he did in the WC final every player can be on the pitch for that length of time. Do you think he'll be on the pitch 80 mins plus each time?

Looking at the other Lions tests, Jones did manage 80 minutes twice in 2013 in the 2nd and 3rd tests. 2nd test neither lock was subbed, 2 switches in the back row but Warburton picked up the injury shortly after the first was made. 3rd it was Geoff Parling coming off at 70 mins. I still suspect that its easier for a lock vs Aus than SA.

[Old Man]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

[LordDowlais]

Here's a heads up....34 or over:

England - 0
Scotland - 1 (WP Nel - 35)
Ireland - 0
France - 0
Wales - 2 (AWJ - 35, Owens - 34)
Italy - 0
Australia - 0
New Zealand - 1 (Coles - 34)

It would appear that 35 is actually not quite the norm in international rugby......

Did anyone claim it was the norm?!  Jeez

I certainly didn't claim it was the norm, but lots of people have played into their mid 30's for their country, Paul O' Connell, Sexton is in his 30's and still playing so I think this list is not accurate, BOD played into his 30's, Andy Gomarsall, Mike Catt, Gregor Townsend, Martin Johnson was in his thirties, Neil Back, I could go on.

So perhaps it' been more "norm" than what people like to think.

[Rugby Fan]

...That's not the 'controversy' though.  It's the insinuation that he can't last 80 minutes when in fact he regularly does....

That isn't the point. I'll quote myself from above:

...There will be at least one lock on the bench, and probably two. One of the starting locks will have to change, and there are only three realistic options. AWJ's starting partner will go off; AWJ's starting partner will move to the flank, and a flanker will go off; or AWJ will go off.

You'd imagine Gatland would prefer to investigate the first two options but he surely won't have ruled out the third.

It's not a question of whether AWJ can play 80 minutes, whether he does so for Wales, or did so previously for the Lions. It's a question of what is the optimum way of using the match day 23 on this tour. For AWJ to stay on, his partner needs to go off, or switch to blindside. As it happens, a lot of the second row candidates can play in the back row, so that could well be the general plan.

I can think of two particular instances which might lead Gatland to take AWJ off early. The first would be if we are getting a hiding, and Gatland wants to shake everything up. The second would be if we are giving the Boks a hiding, and Gatland decides to conserve his captain.

There's a whole range of outcomes between those two scenarios. Whether AWJ goes off early will depend on his first and foremost on his own performance, and then, secondarily, on how close he's being pushed by the other locks. The other factor will be if Gatland is happy he has another player to take the armband, and steer the team to the final whistle.

I don't believe captains are currently as influential with referees as they were in previous seasons, so that quality doesn't matter as much right now. You just need someone to make the call on kicking to touch, taking a tap, or going for goal. There are several players in the squad who can handle that call.

[LordDowlais]

I don't really care if AWJ has to come off, as long as we win.

But the same logic that people are applying for AWJ could be applied for any player. If AWJ were to come off, then Hogg would be captain.

But perhaps he wont come off, perhaps Itoje is having one of his penalty days, and he will get the shepherds crook. You just never know.

[No 7&1/2]

Here's a heads up....34 or over:

England - 0
Scotland - 1 (WP Nel - 35)
Ireland - 0
France - 0
Wales - 2 (AWJ - 35, Owens - 34)
Italy - 0
Australia - 0
New Zealand - 1 (Coles - 34)

It would appear that 35 is actually not quite the norm in international rugby......

Did anyone claim it was the norm?!  Jeez

I certainly didn't claim it was the norm, but lots of people have played into their mid 30's for their country, Paul O' Connell, Sexton is in his 30's and still playing so I think this list is not accurate, BOD played into his 30's, Andy Gomarsall, Mike Catt, Gregor Townsend, Martin Johnson was in his thirties, Neil Back, I could go on.

So perhaps it' been more "norm" than what people like to think.

Think there's only Sexton thats a current player. What would you class as old for an international rugby player then?

[geoff999rugby]

Its a fair point, as its a simple fact of life that the older you get the less able you are to play at the highest level.

If it wasn't we would have John Jefferies and Fergus Slattery clearing out a ruck, Gareth Edwards getting his hands on the ball from the resultant mayhem and swinging out a wide pass for David Duckham to score.

Why not they were all good enough - to start to look critically at someone in their mid 30s at this level is plain common sense.

We are not talking about 80 years olds though, we are talking about a 35 year old, who has been coached by numerous fitness coaches throughout his career.

Where is the whoosh (totally missed the point) emoj when you want it

[LordDowlais]

Its a fair point, as its a simple fact of life that the older you get the less able you are to play at the highest level.

If it wasn't we would have John Jefferies and Fergus Slattery clearing out a ruck, Gareth Edwards getting his hands on the ball from the resultant mayhem and swinging out a wide pass for David Duckham to score.

Why not they were all good enough - to start to look critically at someone in their mid 30s at this level is plain common sense.

We are not talking about 80 years olds though, we are talking about a 35 year old, who has been coached by numerous fitness coaches throughout his career.

Where is the whoosh (totally missed the point) emoj when you want it

[LordDowlais]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

I doubt they will last 80+ mins. I hope SA have 3 ready made subs.

[Old Man]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

I doubt they will last 80+ mins. I hope SA have 3 ready made subs.

Duane Vermeulen will potentially play 80 minutes, the two Steyns will be subs

[LordDowlais]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

I doubt they will last 80+ mins. I hope SA have 3 ready made subs.

Duane Vermeulen will potentially play 80 minutes, the two Steyns will be subs

But..... Duane Vermulen is 35 years old, surely he will not last 80 mins........

Only joking...

[Sgt_Pooly]

Here's a heads up....34 or over:

England - 0
Scotland - 1 (WP Nel - 35)
Ireland - 0
France - 0
Wales - 2 (AWJ - 35, Owens - 34)
Italy - 0
Australia - 0
New Zealand - 1 (Coles - 34)

It would appear that 35 is actually not quite the norm in international rugby......

Did anyone claim it was the norm?!  Jeez

I certainly didn't claim it was the norm, but lots of people have played into their mid 30's for their country, Paul O' Connell, Sexton is in his 30's and still playing so I think this list is not accurate, BOD played into his 30's, Andy Gomarsall, Mike Catt, Gregor Townsend, Martin Johnson was in his thirties, Neil Back, I could go on.

So perhaps it' been more "norm" than what people like to think.

I think you've missed the point. I've listed 8 current international squads and there is 4 players 34 or over.....thats's roughly 1.6% of current internationals (from this list), that would indicate it is very much against the norm. There's 2 that are 35....that's 0.8%. A 0.8% demigraphic is not the "norm" I'm afraid, even the Tories couldn't argue that one.

Picking a few players from the last 20 years of rugby where there has been literally thousands of other players not 34 and above is irrelevant.

LD, this isn't really a debate, 35 is pretty old for a rugby player. Like it or not, it's just how it is.

I'm really not attacking AWJ here, I think he's a pretty obvious choice of captain and he'll be a worthy starter, I'm just pointing out he's quite old. Can we agree that the grass is green?

[Rugby Fan]

But the same logic that people are applying for AWJ could be applied for any player.

Not if the bench is a 6-2 split.

[Sgt_Pooly]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

I doubt they will last 80+ mins. I hope SA have 3 ready made subs.

Duane Vermeulen will potentially play 80 minutes, the two Steyns will be subs

But..... Duane Vermulen is 35 years old, surely he will not last 80 mins........

Only joking...

Well he isn't, he's 34.....

It'll be interesting to see how he goes actually has he's obviously not played much rugby over the last 2 years.

[No 7&1/2]

It's also not only about age but about the guys he's competing with. Even given what I'd consider mistakes in selection Gatland clearly feels that there are better locks available than Wales have (unsurprisingly) thus more options to replace Jones with. I can't agree with the opinion that Jones is more likely to play 80 mins each test than not.

[No 7&1/2]

How important is captaincy then. Squeaky bum time of the last 10 to 15 mins is it important to have your 'best' captain on the field?

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