Euro 2020 Thread (11th June-11th July)

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Starts in under a week. Might be a fun summer of football to lift the gloom of the previous 12 months.

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Full Schedule:

Outright Odds:

Portugal to defend their title? France to go one better? Germany return to prominence? Belgium finally get it right? England bring football home? Or will Scotland shock the world?

[Guest]

Judging by the media this morning you lot have gone & won the whole blimmin thing!!

Mammoth overreaction, but as expected because it's 'Germany' and the name is bigger than the present reality.

Pretty much bang on. Germany in a trough and have been for some time. Name alone is the reason this being heralded as the biggest win in a generation. It was a good win, ok performance, against a nation in transition, from once being a dominant powerhouse, to now in the doldrums.

[GSC]

We went from trying to finish second in the group to Germany are crap pretty quickly

[Guest]

I wasn’t in the camp of finishing second, but am in the camp that Germany are a distinctly poor outfit right now, having bombed at the last two major tournaments. They were woeful yesterday, poor v Hungary, toothless v the French, and came into the tournament having been bent over by Spain, 6-0.

[Duty281]

I don't recall anyone wanting English to finish second. I commented, as did others, on how poor Germany are pre-yesterday's game and pre-tournament.

That's why Southgate tactics were so poor yesterday. He gave a woeful Germany a foothold in the game, Germany had more possession and more chances, his negativity allowed Germany to control around 25-30 minutes of the fixture, and had either Werner or Muller been able to finish, England would have likely lost or been taken to penalties. England should have retained their usual shape, bossed it from the outset, and overwhelmed Germany's miserable defence.

But there's one thing that Southgate undoubtedly is...lucky. Lucky to get the job. Lucky to stumble upon two of the easiest tournament draws England have ever had. Lucky to win a penalty shoot-out in 2018. Lucky that players like Werner and Muller miss golden chances. A luck that Robson, Venables, Hoddle, Sven and even Capello didn't get. Southgate is, as Napoleon probably didn't say, a lucky general.

And Southgate's luck may just carry England all the way.

[dummy_half]

I think the fact that it was Germany, and finally ending that hoodoo, made it much more than just a last-16 win, not that those are to be sniffed at. It wasn't just joy, it was relief. One of the tasks for Southgate will be to bring the squad back down to earth.

Yes, that will be the biggest task - getting the squad to reset, and then motivate them for a game in just a few days against less-heralded opposition on neutral territory.

Southgate is poor in terms of tactics, but as a man-manager he's good so I'm confident that England will have no problems in this aspect.

Not sure he's poor at tactics, rather that he's got the side playing in a way that the fans don't much like and that can appear negative. If it works, it isn't tactically wrong.

[Soul Requiem]

But there's one thing that Southgate undoubtedly is...lucky. Lucky to get the job. Lucky to stumble upon two of the easiest tournament draws England have ever had. Lucky to win a penalty shoot-out in 2018. Lucky that players like Werner and Muller miss golden chances. A luck that Robson, Venables, Hoddle, Sven and even Capello didn't get. Southgate is, as Napoleon probably didn't say, a lucky general.

And Southgate's luck may just carry England all the way.

Robson was partially at fault for the failure in 1990, selecting an old Peter Shilton over Dave Beasant, persisting with overly conservative tactics that did little to get the best out of Barnes, Waddle and Gascoigne.
Sven is the most culpable, he had the basis for a world class side at his disposal but insisted on selecting Gerrard and Lampard together, he insisted on selecting Rooney, Beckham and Owen when half fit, he insisted on largely ignoring Michael Carrick.

It wasn't luck that made Muller miss that chance, it was in large part thanks to Kyle Walker busting a gut on a lost cause, his tracking back ensured that Muller had to take the shot early. It wasn't luck that he was in the side, he was selected for his pace and ability to sweep up behind the two centre backs. If you've seen Werner at all this season, it would have been unlucky if he'd put that chance away.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I think the fact that it was Germany, and finally ending that hoodoo, made it much more than just a last-16 win, not that those are to be sniffed at. It wasn't just joy, it was relief. One of the tasks for Southgate will be to bring the squad back down to earth.

Yes, that will be the biggest task - getting the squad to reset, and then motivate them for a game in just a few days against less-heralded opposition on neutral territory.

Southgate is poor in terms of tactics, but as a man-manager he's good so I'm confident that England will have no problems in this aspect.

Not sure he's poor at tactics, rather that he's got the side playing in a way that the fans don't much like and that can appear negative. If it works, it isn't tactically wrong.

And it’s working very well. The stats about what we stopped Germany doing, both as a whole and the way the threat of Gosens was managed, show a very good tactical understanding.

He’s tweaked his team and their style for each game. Scotland didn’t work, but then we all know the underdogs can defend their way to a draw once every so often.

Germany arent a poor side, they just aren’t the behemoths of past years. This desperate desire to suffocate any joy from this is...

[Duty281]

I think the fact that it was Germany, and finally ending that hoodoo, made it much more than just a last-16 win, not that those are to be sniffed at. It wasn't just joy, it was relief. One of the tasks for Southgate will be to bring the squad back down to earth.

Yes, that will be the biggest task - getting the squad to reset, and then motivate them for a game in just a few days against less-heralded opposition on neutral territory.

Southgate is poor in terms of tactics, but as a man-manager he's good so I'm confident that England will have no problems in this aspect.

Not sure he's poor at tactics, rather that he's got the side playing in a way that the fans don't much like and that can appear negative. If it works, it isn't tactically wrong.

Yes, and tactically it didn't work yesterday. Tactically, England's attacking output was negated, while Germany were not prevented from creating good chances, controlling the game for segments or winning the possession battle. But Southgate was fortunate in that England took their chances and Germany didn't take theirs. And he made the right call to introduce Grealish, albeit belatedly!

[Duty281]

I think the fact that it was Germany, and finally ending that hoodoo, made it much more than just a last-16 win, not that those are to be sniffed at. It wasn't just joy, it was relief. One of the tasks for Southgate will be to bring the squad back down to earth.

Yes, that will be the biggest task - getting the squad to reset, and then motivate them for a game in just a few days against less-heralded opposition on neutral territory.

Southgate is poor in terms of tactics, but as a man-manager he's good so I'm confident that England will have no problems in this aspect.

Not sure he's poor at tactics, rather that he's got the side playing in a way that the fans don't much like and that can appear negative. If it works, it isn't tactically wrong.

And it’s working very well. The stats about what we stopped Germany doing, both as a whole and the way the threat of Gosens was managed, show a very good tactical understanding.

He’s tweaked his team and their style for each game. Scotland didn’t work, but then we all know the underdogs can defend their way to a draw once every so often.

Germany arent a poor side, they just aren’t the behemoths of past years. This desperate desire to suffocate any joy from this is...

Scotland did work, from Southgate's perspective, because he played not to lose.

Germany are an incredibly poor side - any team that loses to North Macedonia at home and gets trampled 6-0 by Spain and draws to Hungary is a poor side - but you can still be joyful at the result.

[Duty281]

But there's one thing that Southgate undoubtedly is...lucky. Lucky to get the job. Lucky to stumble upon two of the easiest tournament draws England have ever had. Lucky to win a penalty shoot-out in 2018. Lucky that players like Werner and Muller miss golden chances. A luck that Robson, Venables, Hoddle, Sven and even Capello didn't get. Southgate is, as Napoleon probably didn't say, a lucky general.

And Southgate's luck may just carry England all the way.

Robson was partially at fault for the failure in 1990, selecting an old Peter Shilton over Dave Beasant, persisting with overly conservative tactics that did little to get the best out of Barnes, Waddle and Gascoigne.
Sven is the most culpable, he had the basis for a world class side at his disposal but insisted on selecting Gerrard and Lampard together, he insisted on selecting Rooney, Beckham and Owen when half fit, he insisted on largely ignoring Michael Carrick.

It wasn't luck that made Muller miss that chance, it was in large part thanks to Kyle Walker busting a gut on a lost cause, his tracking back ensured that Muller had to take the shot early. It wasn't luck that he was in the side, he was selected for his pace and ability to sweep up behind the two centre backs. If you've seen Werner at all this season, it would have been unlucky if he'd put that chance away.

Yes, I agree that those past managers (especially Sven) made mistakes, but they did also fall very short on the fortune stakes.

I think Walker had his best game for England in a long while, but I'd still make Muller odds-on to finish that chance. I wasn't too surprised that Werner hit a weak finish, as noted at the time.

[Oakdene]

Quick question but take the history away between the 2 sides, did anyone actually think England weren't going to beat Germany? All my English colleagues were sure of victory & seemed to think that the English squad were man for man (or do I have to say player for player) better than their German counterparts.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

How much of Muller’s game ever was based on running through 40 yards from goal and slotting in?

And how bad are Portugal and Belgium then? Cos Germany destroyed Portugal and then Portugal were extremely unlucky not to score at least one against Belgium.

[Lowlandbrit]

Let's get to the real analysis: good or bad sign that there's a night in Rome on football's way home?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Neuer, Kimmick, Rudiger, Gosens, Kroos, Havertz probably all start for England. I reckon we’d accommodate Hummels too.

Their squad as a whole is probably level. I’d say those were two of the more evenly matched sides in the tournament. Had Germany won, they’d be favourites to win the tournament right now. Instead we are.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Let's get to the real analysis: good or bad sign that there's a night in Rome on football's way home?

You know the rules, Lowland. If you want to

Talk about football coming home...

Then theres legend of one night in Rome

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I think the fact that it was Germany, and finally ending that hoodoo, made it much more than just a last-16 win, not that those are to be sniffed at. It wasn't just joy, it was relief. One of the tasks for Southgate will be to bring the squad back down to earth.

Yes, that will be the biggest task - getting the squad to reset, and then motivate them for a game in just a few days against less-heralded opposition on neutral territory.

Southgate is poor in terms of tactics, but as a man-manager he's good so I'm confident that England will have no problems in this aspect.

Not sure he's poor at tactics, rather that he's got the side playing in a way that the fans don't much like and that can appear negative. If it works, it isn't tactically wrong.

Yes, and tactically it didn't work yesterday. Tactically, England's attacking output was negated, while Germany were not prevented from creating good chances, controlling the game for segments or winning the possession battle. But Southgate was fortunate in that England took their chances and Germany didn't take theirs. And he made the right call to introduce Grealish, albeit belatedly!

Shockingly, allowing them to control the ball in non-dangerous areas and have loads of meaningless possession, is actually defensive tactics working...
They basically had two chances - one of which, came from a hospital ball by Sterling to one of our defenders letting the striker in. The other was Werner in actually a 50/50 scoring situation

[GSC]

Southgates probably the first England manager in my conscious lifetime to actually get more than the sum of the parts available to him.

[Samo]

Neuer, Kimmick, Rudiger, Gosens, Kroos, Havertz probably all start for England. I reckon we’d accommodate Hummels too.

Their squad as a whole is probably level. I’d say those were two of the more evenly matched sides in the tournament. Had Germany won, they’d be favourites to win the tournament right now. Instead we are.

But how much of that is down to England being viewed as the best team left or because they've got the easiest run and the home advantage? For me it'll be whoever wins between Italy and Belgium, although I wouldnt completely rule out either the Czech Republic or Denmark either.

[GSC]

Neuer, Kimmick, Rudiger, Gosens, Kroos, Havertz probably all start for England. I reckon we’d accommodate Hummels too.

Their squad as a whole is probably level. I’d say those were two of the more evenly matched sides in the tournament. Had Germany won, they’d be favourites to win the tournament right now. Instead we are.

But how much of that is down to England being viewed as the best team left or because they've got the easiest run and the home advantage?  For me it'll be whoever wins between Italy and Belgium, although I wouldnt completely rule out either the Czech Republic or Denmark either.

I think that's fair. It's still a pretty open tournament to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of the underdogs made a run at this. But for whatever reason it's nice just to be considered one of the better teams remaining

[Duty281]

I think the fact that it was Germany, and finally ending that hoodoo, made it much more than just a last-16 win, not that those are to be sniffed at. It wasn't just joy, it was relief. One of the tasks for Southgate will be to bring the squad back down to earth.

Yes, that will be the biggest task - getting the squad to reset, and then motivate them for a game in just a few days against less-heralded opposition on neutral territory.

Southgate is poor in terms of tactics, but as a man-manager he's good so I'm confident that England will have no problems in this aspect.

Not sure he's poor at tactics, rather that he's got the side playing in a way that the fans don't much like and that can appear negative. If it works, it isn't tactically wrong.

Yes, and tactically it didn't work yesterday. Tactically, England's attacking output was negated, while Germany were not prevented from creating good chances, controlling the game for segments or winning the possession battle. But Southgate was fortunate in that England took their chances and Germany didn't take theirs. And he made the right call to introduce Grealish, albeit belatedly!

Shockingly, allowing them to control the ball in non-dangerous areas and have loads of meaningless possession, is actually defensive tactics working...
They basically had two chances - one of which, came from a hospital ball by Sterling to one of our defenders letting the striker in. The other was Werner in actually a 50/50 scoring situation

Possession and controlling the game is never meaningless. Negating your own's team attacking output, playing seven defensive players, and still allowing Germany to have three good chances and spells of pressure is not an example of defensive tactics working.

[GSC]

Not sure any tactics in the world account for your own player playing in the opposition. Werner one was fair, stones too slow to react to it. Havertz one was closer to a half chance imo, if he pings that one in you say fair play

[Duty281]

Neuer, Kimmick, Rudiger, Gosens, Kroos, Havertz probably all start for England. I reckon we’d accommodate Hummels too.

Their squad as a whole is probably level. I’d say those were two of the more evenly matched sides in the tournament. Had Germany won, they’d be favourites to win the tournament right now. Instead we are.

I don't think anyone's denying that Germany have some quality players, but as a sum total their team is poor, borne out by their results. England should be beating teams like Germany at home and they have. Expectation met.

And I think England would probably start Neuer, Kroos, Goretzka from yesterday, and possibly Hummels. Havertz would be a maybe.

[Soul Requiem]

It's meaningless if it's happening in the wrong area of the pitch, dominating possession when you have no link between midfield and attack doesn't really matter. So what Germany had a couple of chances, they didn't take any of them and England did.

Muller is not a natural striker of the ball, the bulk of his goals that i've seen for both Germany and Bayern Munich come from within the area mostly within the penalty spot. Allowing him a chance to run through wasn't great defending but I genuinely believe he misses that more often than not, had he the time to take another touch then the balance tips in his favour. This all ignores Harry Kane of all people not putting his left boot through the ball at the end of the first half, we did have the better chances and rightfully won.

[alfie]

Still a day or so left to argue over what has already happened before we get all nervous over the next match ...

I do take Duty's point about Southgate being , to some extent , a "lucky general" - though I am very much with Bonaparte on that being a useful attribute. But it seems to me that this means it really doesn't much matter what results are achieved : to those who just don't approve of him , Southgate will never get any credit for making decisions that work. Perhaps it isn't so much that the tactics he employs are "wrong" as that they are not the ones his critics would prefer ?

I am not , by the way , suggesting he is a tactical genius (those with much more knowledge of the game than I possess can judge better on that score) : just that I really don't see a lot of evidence that he often gets things drastically wrong - even if the team sometimes fails to excite as much as we would all like. It is easy to say , after the fact , that the way England played against Germany allowed their opponents to enjoy periods of dominance and one or two good chances : but who can say what might have happened had they instead adopted the plans of many armchair experts ?  All we can really say with any certainty is : 2-0.

This doesn't of course preclude robust discussion ahead of the match in Rome as to what formation/selection should be for this (and hopefully further!) matches - and I look forward to reading the opinions of posters over the next couple of days.  But I do think , for now , it is reasonable to say so far well done England rather than trying to diminish their (as yet unfinished ?) achievements.

By the way I still wouldn't call them favourites : reckon the winner of Belgium/Italy are probably that at this stage. But they do look like very serious contenders...

[Derbymanc]

I gotta massively disagree with those that think Southgate is just lucky and not tactically astute. We're not a great team by any means and are as much in transition as the Germans, as has been alluded a lot. Southgate has looked at past winners of tournaments and realised that those not blessed with amazing talent rely on defense and breaking teams down instead of romping home every game.

It may not be the prettiest football but we're damn good at it at the moment. So lets enjoy it.

Is any National team an actual powerhouse at the moment?

and lets not get too far ahead of ourselves, the tournaments wide open now and we still haven't had our usual goalkeeping error ;-)

[Soul Requiem]

I gotta massively disagree with those that think Southgate is just lucky and not tactically astute. We're not a great team by any means and are as much in transition as the Germans, as has been alluded a lot. Southgate has looked at past winners of tournaments and realised that those not blessed with amazing talent rely on defense and breaking teams down instead of romping home every game.

The thing is that England are blessed with amazing talent. The defence is solid in international terms where attacking shape is simpler than it is in the club game, the midfield isn't the strongest but the attack is potentially top drawer if allowed to play. Foden, Kane, Sterling, Sancho, Mount, Grealish, Saka and Rashford is a mightily impressive group of attacking players, the disappointment is that some of us want to see them unleashed.

[Derbymanc]

Morning Souly, hope your doing well bud.

I still think we're a team in transit. If you read the comments and opinions do we really have a solid defence, it looks like it now but i put that down to how GS has us playing. Maguire and Pickford are top drawer imo, the others, there's still time to see.

The midfield is a tough one as we always seem to be overloaded with them and there's some quality on show there. Maybe as i don't watch the PL I don't see the massive fuss over Grealish but as im in the minority there I think i'm just not seeing what others see all the time.

Sterling and Kane are both not brilliant at this level. I haven't rated Sterling since i first saw him and for me he makes too many mistakes BUT he had a cracking game against Germany and even with the mistake that COULD have cost us a goal still think he was standout.
Kane just doesn't look with it at all but do we have anyone we could really replace him with?

We have some great younger talent coming through and it looks good for the future but whlst it might not be the greatest of football and i'm like the rest of us screaming to get it forward. I think Southgates doing a good job.

And it's a nice change to see everyone discussing stuff instead of insulting each other ;-)

What is everyones thoughts on the cameraman zooming in on the German Girl crying? For any that know me elsewhere. I think it's terrible kids should never be used for banter or anything like that. I say the same when it's any club (yes even Forest GSC ;-). And for me, good on her for caring that much.

[GSC]

It's a bit of a storm in a teacup type thing. For once in this country I don't think the atmosphere was about denigrating anyone else as much as celebrating our own success.

The midfield options are what they are, the defense is solid enough individually but each have some vulnerabilities we've seen exploited in the past. The emphasis is clearly on keeping clean sheets first and given the options available Gareth feels this approach is necessary to secure them. Whether he would be more expansive with better midfield options or elite defenders is hypothetical and pointless, we don't have them

Germany game stands on its own for me for anyone who thinks Gareth is tactically inept. Particularly when France tried to execute a similar tactical switch (with superior players) and it was a complete disaster.

[Galted]

What is everyones thoughts on the cameraman zooming in on the German Girl crying? For any that know me elsewhere. I think it's terrible kids should never be used for banter or anything like that. I say the same when it's any club (yes even Forest GSC ;-). And for me, good on her for caring that much.

It is a bit poor how every time there's a pitch invader or decent punch-up between two consenting piss-heads the director's careful not to show any of it but a player potentially dying or a distressed kid needs prolonged coverage.

[Derbymanc]

I think it's gone a bit overboard with some of the media reporting on it as if the fans at the stadium were cheering because she was crying. But i don't like the idea of the memes and stuff coming out. Maybe it's just me.

Gotta be honest i was in the camp of Southgates rubbish and i expected to be trampled by Germany but he shown that he knows what he's doing and that he's not afraid to do his thing. I'm happy at the minute, ask me again on sunday ;-)

[dummy_half]

Derby
Grealish played really well in one of the warm up games. He's technically very solid and more courageous than some of our other players in that he doesn't just play the way he's facing, plus buys a lot of fouls by drawing challenges in and moving the ball away (something Ronaldo used to do brilliantly as well). Had a hand in both goals v Germany - one assist and one 'assist to the assist*' in making a telling pass out to Shaw who put the cross in. I think the hype is a bit much, but he's a very decent player.

* Ice hockey used to allow crediting up to 2 players with an assist on a goal.

Get your point regarding Sterling - he's always something of a 'curates egg', as he makes some excellent runs off the ball and can beat a man but these probably lead to less than they should because he's not a great passer / shot / crosser. At least over the last few years he's improved his close range finishing and is now an effective goal scorer.

Kane looked a bit better v Germany, even before the goal, but he's certainly not been at the races so far. Maybe the best is yet to come from him in this tournament? Also worth looking at how heavily he's been being marked. The closest to a like for like in the squad is Calvert-Lewin, whose form tailed off in the second half of the season and who is not as good with his back to goal as Kane.

As for the youngsters (Saka, Foden, Sancho, Bellingham), certainly at international level they are more a case of potential rather than proven quality at the moment. Rashford looks to have regressed a bit as a player, and is a bit like Sterling in using his pace well but the ball poorly.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

The main thing is that you're still in the hunt. It's tournament football, and you don't often see teams swashbuckling their way to the title. I do think England's defence will come unstuck at some point, but there's firepower to come off the bench if / when that happens.

Speaking of the crying German girl and the atmosphere at the ground, I listened to the first half on 5 Live, and genuinely, I could barely hear the German anthem for the booing. They had a German football reporter on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday, and even a day later he sounded baffled and a bit sad when he was asked about it, saying German people love England, and he didn't know why the anthem was booed so loudly. It wasn't good at all.

[Duty281]

Kane is struggling with form and fitness, but he still has the magic and capable touch. He's suffered confidence issues so far, hopefully that goal v Germany will spark him into life. The only like-for-like replacement is DCL, but Southgate's evidently not going to use him. He'd rather use Rashford as a 9, which is bizarre because Rashford has little physical presence.

Sterling may struggle with decision-making at times, but his off-the-ball runs are fantastic, defenders are extremely wary of him, and he's currently on a brilliant scoring run (going on before the Euros, too). Grealish is top quality in the relative little we've seen of him so far, he's like what I once imagined a peak Wilshere would be like, he must start v Ukraine (Grealish, not Wilshere!). Foden is more tomorrow's player than today, but still a fantastic creative option to have. Provided he stays injury-free, he will be one of England's top players over the next 5-10 years. Mount, too, another brilliant prospect.

Saka's in good form, his pace and confidence to engage defenders will trouble any side. Disappointed we're not seeing more of Sancho. Rashford is barely half-fit, has been overplayed by United all season, I think he's waiting to have surgery, and unsurprisingly is struggling form-wise. Shouldn't really be in the squad, like Greenwood, in my opinion. A real shame how Rashford's international career is turning out.

In short, it's a luxury of attacking riches that can beat anyone. It's why I couldn't rule out England as winners pre-tournament. And England must feel confident being in the right half of the draw, with the French already knocked out.

[dummy_half]

The main thing is that you're still in the hunt. It's tournament football, and you don't often see teams swashbuckling their way to the title. I do think England's defence will come unstuck at some point, but there's firepower to come off the bench if / when that happens.

Speaking of the crying German girl and the atmosphere at the ground, I listened to the first half on 5 Live, and genuinely, I could barely hear the German anthem for the booing. They had a German football reporter on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday, and even a day later he sounded baffled and a bit sad when he was asked about it, saying German people love England, and he didn't know why the anthem was booed so loudly. It wasn't good at all.

Perhaps doesn't appreciate that there are so many Sun readers in the crowds at matches, who still have the 'two world wars and one world cup' mentality.

[Duty281]

I don't condone the anthem booing. However, numerous anthems have been booed through the tournament and it, of course, only becomes an issue when the English do it.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I've never heard booing like it, Duty. I wouldn't be mentioning it otherwise.

[Duty281]

Early speculation is that Southgate will, as expected, revert to a back four for the Ukraine game. Maguire, Rice, Phillips and Foden are all on yellow cards, so if any of them get booked in the QF they will be suspended for the potential SF. However, yellow-cards will be wiped away after the SF stage - if any of those players get booked in the SF, they won't miss the final (if England get there!). With that in mind, Southgate may 'rest' some of those four players - Henderson and Mings might come into the starting XI.

Have never liked the two YCs and a suspension rule for major tournaments like this one. It seems unnecessarily punitive, especially with how easy it is to get a YC these days.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Early speculation is that Southgate will, as expected, revert to a back four for the Ukraine game. Maguire, Rice, Phillips and Foden are all on yellow cards, so if any of them get booked in the QF they will be suspended for the potential SF. However, yellow-cards will be wiped away after the SF stage - if any of those players get booked in the SF, they won't miss the final (if England get there!). With that in mind, Southgate may 'rest' some of those four players - Henderson and Mings might come into the starting XI.

Have never liked the two YCs and a suspension rule for major tournaments like this one. It seems unnecessarily punitive, especially with how easy it is to get a YC these days.

Agreed, anyone can mistime a tackle. It's a shame there isn't a way of distinguishing between a yellow for something like that and a yellow for a cynical body check.

[dummy_half]

Early speculation is that Southgate will, as expected, revert to a back four for the Ukraine game. Maguire, Rice, Phillips and Foden are all on yellow cards, so if any of them get booked in the QF they will be suspended for the potential SF. However, yellow-cards will be wiped away after the SF stage - if any of those players get booked in the SF, they won't miss the final (if England get there!). With that in mind, Southgate may 'rest' some of those four players - Henderson and Mings might come into the starting XI.

Have never liked the two YCs and a suspension rule for major tournaments like this one. It seems unnecessarily punitive, especially with how easy it is to get a YC these days.

Presumably retaining Walker on the right and Shaw on the left (please not Trippier at left back again, his dead ball ability isn't good enough to justify THAT change of shape). As with the Czech game, if they play like that, they will have virtually a 3 man defence, with Walker holding back and Shaw pushing up - as others have pointed out, Walker has been defending really well so far and his pace is very useful to cover if Stones is beaten or if Rice and Phillips fail to pick up a runner from midfield. I think most would like Grealish in as an attacking central midfielder with Saka out on the right.

Can see Henderson in for Phillips, not just because Phillips has a yellow, but he's also run like a loon for all of each game so far and a rest might be beneficial. Also, I see Rice missing through a suspension for the SF as less of a loss than Phillips missing.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

If you think it took Pep quite a while to get City playing how he wanted when he came in, and he was with them every day.

Southgate gets moments here and there. He can’t imbue an entirely new style and I’m relatively convinced tactical overhauls in attack are far harder than defensively.

I think he’s getting the best out of that side, truly. He is content going between 3-4-3 and 4-2-3-1 (or a 4-3-3), which is true of Man United, Chelsea and a few others.

It’s starting to feel like he could pick any team but add Grealish and people would assume he was being more attacking.

[Duty281]

Gary Neville (he picks the England team nowadays!) has gone for the following v Ukraine:

Pickford; Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw; Rice, Phillips; Foden, Mount/Grealish, Sterling; Kane.

It's not far removed from what I'd go for. Would go for Grealish over Mount, would prefer Henderson over Rice if fit enough, otherwise it's golden.

Shaw and Sterling are starting to establish a good combination down the left, and it seems to be boosted by Grealish's presence. Foden should come in for Saka because the Ukrainians will be deeper and less susceptible to pace. Saka could be a great counter-attacking option off the bench if England have a lead going into the final 20 or so minutes. I think Walker over Trippier is a given, because Southgate won't be so fixated on set-pieces* this time and Trippier apparently has fitness concerns (as does Rice).

*Not that I've seen Trippier put a good set-piece ball into the box yet! Attacking set-pieces have been quite poor overall thus far.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I think you've got to bring Henderson in for one of Rice/Phillips purely because of the suspension potential issue - you don't want both Rice and Phillips picking up a yellow and then having to change the whole midfield if we do progress.

[Duty281]

Before England some of those other nations are playing their QFs.

Switzerland-Spain first up, in Russia. I think we're going to get a boring game for this one. Knockout games are usually quite tense and dull and I'm not sure there was such a game in the last 16, maybe Belgium-Portugal or England-Germany to a neutral were the closest. I think both of these teams will cancel each other out. Spain playing slow, safe football like in the first two group stage games, Switzerland happy to soak it up. 0-0 and the Swiss to triumph on penalties.

Then Belgium-Italy in Munich. Should be the tie of the round. I'm expecting Italy to raise their game from the Austria match, they will be boosted from the likely return of Cheillini. Opposite news for Belgium with KdB and Hazard unlikely to start with both well short of 100% fitness. They're not half the team without those two. 1-0 Italy after 90 minutes.

Also, we need to #prayforlawro. Mark Lawrenson, the BBC Sport football expert, is 16th out of 16th in the BBC predictions game v other football pundits. We all hope he gets out of his present difficulties.

[GSC]

To be fair, predicting Liverpool to win every game at the euros is a bold call for Lawro

[Guest]

Spain lead through Alba, thanks to a massive deflection. Still can’t get my head around this Spanish side potentially being in the SF

[Duty281]

Swiss had two good counter-attacks before the goal, one of them Shaqiri should have played Seferovic in for a one-on-one, but they fluffed both. Then Spain get that huge deflection to put them into a good lead.

[Guest]

Without Xhaka, and now Embolo off injured.

Difficult to see the Swiss replicating the form they showed against France

[Duty281]

Spain's crap defence finally gets exploited. Swiss have created so many opportunities, mainly from corners, that I'm surprised it took that long.

Spanish have been very poor in this one. Switzerland should win it.

[Guest]

Spanish have been very poor in this one

Have been all tournament. Just a very poor standard of sides around right now

[Duty281]

Red card for the Swiss, two-footed lunge. That's flipped the game.

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