Euro 2020 Thread (11th June-11th July)

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Starts in under a week. Might be a fun summer of football to lift the gloom of the previous 12 months.

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Outright Odds:

Portugal to defend their title? France to go one better? Germany return to prominence? Belgium finally get it right? England bring football home? Or will Scotland shock the world?

[alfie]

Christ, absolute basics that you don't make substitutions when defending a set-piece! Nearly cost England.

Anyway the hosts hang on for penalties. Stupid way to decide a tournament. When Italy won it in '68, they drew AET and it went to a replay. And they lost the 94 World Cup on pens.

Have faith in Southgate's lucky charms. But on the basis of the full 120, Italy deserve it. Jorginho should have seen red; as he's a key penalty taker that could be a costly error.

You'd fancy a replay , eh , Duty ? Not sure my nerves would stand that...

[alfie]

Oh no...the two men brought on just for pens have both missed...

[JDizzle]

Absolutely gutted for Saka.

[GSC]

Well that sucks. Congrats to Italy. Better team on the night

[Guest]

Forza Italia!!!
Hard luck England
Penalties suck

[alfie]

Oh what a horrible way to lose. The young fellows just couldn't handle the pressure of penalties , alas.

Going to haunt them I fear.

[Duty281]

Deserved for Italy, the best team through the tournament and the best team on the night.

Really tough on the three young lads who missed. Saka and Sancho's penalties were very poor.

[Soul Requiem]

Southgate can do one now.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Cruel. Don’t think we turned up, even think scoring early made us scared to lose what we had. 

Supportive of him throughout, but think the manager let that game drift. 

Awful penalty taking, but I feel for them. 23, 21 and 19? 

Devastated

[alfie]

Congrats Italy.

Bitter pill to swallow but if you'd told me before the whole thing started it would be a penalty loss in the final I think I'd have taken that.

Team is mostly young. Immediate future looks pretty good

[GSC]

Shouldn't take the shine off a great tournament but it really does suck.

[Dirtydave]

I am gutted for england! I genuinely wanted you guys to take that...

I was discussing with a co worker who was annoyed by the fans booing anthems, kneeling, opposition players passing or being injured etc, and he cursed the tournament schedule in favour of the rich nations, but even he messaged me a few minutes ago saying he was cheering them on.

I don't understand the rationale of the Rashford and sancho subs, and asking a teenager to close the win out! Surely your better off asking Maguire or Kane to got 4th

[Riggs]

Congrats Italy.

[Soul Requiem]

You should not sub players on just to take a penalty, places way too much pressure on young shoulders. Get Rashford or Sancho on earlier and in the game.

[owen10ozzy]

Gutting. Gutted for Saka. Gutted for Grealish who didnt get a good enough run in the team..

Likes of Sancho...hard to ask when youve barely played...

Rashford....the guy isnt even fit but played more than Sancho and then got given a penalty..

Well done England for pulling together a nation after the last 18 months...

But on a pure football basis, thats an absolutle glaring chance of major win gone begging. Tactically naive yet again and this time the step up in class showed up that lack of tactically nous. Couldnt have wished for a better start and they did absolutely nothing with it... we can have all the quality in the world but if we keep moving forward with this attitude of shoring up the shop every time we go ahead against a team then we will never get over the line...

We keep saying effort and how we feel sorry for the effort they put in....effort doesnt win you major tournaments...if it did my under 6 boys would be in final.

[Duty281]

A decent tournament, overall, for England. Nothing more. Beat the nations they were expected to beat, came up short against the first 'big' nation they played. It's usually ever thus. A 'par' effort.

This England team is building, not built, so 2022 and 2024 present greater opportunities.

Again tonight Southgate is proven to be tactically lightweight. He's a good man manager and seems a very nice fellow. But he's far too negative and won't ever get the best out of this fantastic array of English attacking talent. No excuse to set up as he did tonight and deprive England of their best chance. No excuse to be so negative v Germany. It's the way he is - he could have prime Pele, Maradona and Best at his disposal, and he'd still worry about what the opposition might or might not do. His in-game management is poor, also. If England are to reach their potential he needs to go. But it won't happen. Grealish and Sancho so under-used in this tournament. And you can't put 'cold' players on to take penalties, especially young ones. Southgate is a very, very poor manager.

Sterling, Saka, Shaw all had good tournaments. Kane clearly wasn't fit but was kept on as a passenger. Phillips was quite impressive, especially tonight. Stones and Maguire maybe starting to form a good partnership. Pickford hit and miss as ever, Walker ditto.

Tonight was very poor from England, especially in the second half. What was the game plan? Nick an early goal and hang on for dear life? It didn't need to be that way. England have some fantastic attacking players at their disposal. Oh well. Cruel way to lose.

Very well done to Italy. Definitely deserved it and overcame tougher obstacles than England did to get here.

[alfie]

Mind you , if you'd have told me Pickford would save two Penalties and England still end up losing in five I'd have nearly laughed.

Were they really the best choices to take them ? I presume they were the ones who had put their hands up ; but the pressure of the situation is very hard on players of such tender years.

As to the game I guess Italy were overall the better team. But at the same time their goal was a bit lucky and they were arguably a bit fortunate to keep eleven on the pitch once or twice. Not complaining about that game - just the wretched finish !

[Duty281]

But on a pure football basis, thats an absolutle glaring chance of major win gone begging. Tactically naive yet again and this time the step up in class showed up that lack of tactically nous. Couldnt have wished for a better start and they did absolutely nothing with it... we can have all the quality in the world but if we keep moving forward with this attitude of shoring up the shop every time we go ahead against a team then we will never get over the line...

Agreed. Just one shot on target in the 117 minutes after Shaw's goal, according to the stats, and only 34% possession. Woeful tactical set-up, woeful performance. Barely distinguishable from the 2012 defeat.

If Southgate resigned tomorrow, how many PL clubs would be after him? 0?

[GSC]

For the first time in my lifetime, an England team to be proud of and get behind. Didn't turn up tonight, but have to build on this tournament like with 2018

[JDizzle]

But on a pure football basis, thats an absolutle glaring chance of major win gone begging. Tactically naive yet again and this time the step up in class showed up that lack of tactically nous. Couldnt have wished for a better start and they did absolutely nothing with it... we can have all the quality in the world but if we keep moving forward with this attitude of shoring up the shop every time we go ahead against a team then we will never get over the line...  

Agreed. Just one shot on target in the 117 minutes after Shaw's goal, according to the stats, and only 34% possession. Woeful tactical set-up, woeful performance. Barely distinguishable from the 2012 defeat.

If Southgate resigned tomorrow, how many PL clubs would be after him? 0?

And if Southgate resigned tomorrow, how many top PL managers would be lining up to replace him?

[Soul Requiem]

Sterling, Philipps and Shaw should have been ahead of Sancho and Saka. That much pressure on a 19 year is ridiculous, you could tell that he was nervous so why not the confidence of Grealish?

[Duty281]

Mind you , if you'd have told me Pickford would save two Penalties and England still end up losing in five I'd have nearly laughed.

Were they really the best choices to take them ? I presume they were the ones who had put their hands up ; but the pressure of the situation is very hard on players of such tender years.

As to the game I guess Italy were overall the better team. But at the same time their goal was a bit lucky and they were arguably a bit fortunate to keep eleven on the pitch once or twice. Not complaining about that game  - just the wretched finish !

I certainly don't think Saka to take penalty five was the right call! Was expecting Shaw or Sterling to step up. But then I was surprised Maguire took the second one.

[Duty281]

But on a pure football basis, thats an absolutle glaring chance of major win gone begging. Tactically naive yet again and this time the step up in class showed up that lack of tactically nous. Couldnt have wished for a better start and they did absolutely nothing with it... we can have all the quality in the world but if we keep moving forward with this attitude of shoring up the shop every time we go ahead against a team then we will never get over the line...  

Agreed. Just one shot on target in the 117 minutes after Shaw's goal, according to the stats, and only 34% possession. Woeful tactical set-up, woeful performance. Barely distinguishable from the 2012 defeat.

If Southgate resigned tomorrow, how many PL clubs would be after him? 0?

And if Southgate resigned tomorrow, how many top PL managers would be lining up to replace him?

Depends how much money the FA are offering. The England job is still an attractive and (usually) lucrative position with the chance to work with some fantastic attacking talent and manage at a World Cup.

[GSC]

It's a Poopie situation all round. Maybe they put their hands up for it or whatever. But that's just penalties. They always make at least 1 loser

[GSC]

And anyone calling for Southgate to go can get to Frak

[Soul Requiem]

Maguire in fairness is rock solid and for a defender technically very good, took the second pen and scored against the Swiss I believe.

[alfie]

Couldn't disagree more about the Southgate bashing that is already being unleashed on here . Got his team to a WC semi and a Euro final and still the armchair experts want him gone ? OK I'm no expert. But just on results , after all these years of SFA in major events , surely he deserves some credit and a chance to go on from here ? Might not be perfect : but this is the first time in decades I've felt remotely confident that an England team can mix it with the best teams.

All I have to say on it.

[Soul Requiem]

And anyone calling for Southgate to go can get to Frak

The Italians with that defence were there for the taking but Southgate decided to sit back, it's indefensible I'm afraid.

[alfie]

Sterling, Philipps and Shaw should have been ahead of Sancho and Saka. That much pressure on a 19 year is ridiculous, you could tell that he was nervous so why not the confidence of Grealish?

Presume if Sterling , Phillips and Shaw had wanted to , they would have been preferred ? It certainly wasn't the takers I expected but I imagine it was all rehearsed in training.

Doing it in a match with all this at stake is another matter.

I just hope these young fellows can shake off the pain and go on with their promising careers.

[Soul Requiem]

Sterling, Philipps and Shaw should have been ahead of Sancho and Saka. That much pressure on a 19 year is ridiculous, you could tell that he was nervous so why not the confidence of Grealish?

Presume if Sterling , Phillips and Shaw had wanted to , they would have been preferred ? It certainly wasn't the takers I expected but I imagine it was all rehearsed in training.

Doing it in a match with all this at stake is another matter.

I just hope these young fellows can shake off the pain and go on with their promising careers.

They weren't given the choice by bringing Sancho and Rashford on.

I'm not bothered by losing but I do at least want to see the team try and win, too often the team retreats on the defensive despite the attacking talent. It's brilliant that the team got to a final but try and win.

[Duty281]

We've seen enough from Southgate to know it's going to be negative football. Gave the Germans too much respect, put the barricades up v Italy tonight (two shots on target!). He has got England far in major competitions, but only because of favourable draws. He meets expectations and gets England past teams they should be beating. But when it's a step up - Croatia (2018), Netherlands (Nations League), Italy - it goes wrong.

Look at today - Italy weak v pace, Saka having a good tournament. What does Southgate do? Drop Saka. Kane a passenger and clearly unfit for the last 60 minutes. Southgate keeps him on. How many minutes did Grealish get at this tournament? Italy dominated possession because Southgate set up the wrong way and didn't adjust. And he only brought Sancho and Rashford on (potential game-changers, both of them) to take penalties. As well as being weird that just heaps the pressure on.

If you're happy with England beating the second-tier nations, like Denmark/Ukraine/Czechs/Swedes, then falling short against the top-tier, fine keep Southgate. But for England to make the next step they need a quality manager, because they do have the players with the potential to win major tournaments.

Roy Hodgson, working with utter scraps, produced as good an England performance v Italy in 2012 as Southgate, with his much better squad, did tonight.

[owen10ozzy]

Guess they were?

Nope they definitely were...

That Italy team was their for the taking....as i stated (Duty too) throughout this tournament we lacked a very good manager and when they step up finally happened it show yet again.

As it did in the WC...as it did in the Nations Cup and now again tonight..

And this right here is why i will state it how i see it not just my emotions...NOW England have lost these pundits are saying we were too passive & tactically naive but they didnt say that at half time or at full time whistle because they were clouded by a) leading 1-0 b) hope of turning it round

Alfie - For me the bigger picture isnt what he has done comparative to past managers...its what can he do from here. He has been exceptional in man management...in uniting the team and the country behind it. But he has not shown any progression in his reading of the game tactically or in his ability to believe in the team as a favourite...as a team who can get on the front foot for the whole 90 minutes. By the way thats my analysis on him not just as England manager but his time at Middlesbrough also.

We have never been  hammered by the big teams in majors...always been nip and tuck...just in different ways. This idea that Southgate has improved our record against the better nations is baffling...he hasnt....we have still come up short against them as we always have. That hasnt changed...its just we have had better routes to latter stages before meeting them.

If anyone can genuinely give me any stat to show our record is better against Top 5 nations that in any other decade then go ahrad and show me.

As for the Southgate bashing...im more than willing to give him his plaudits and have for what he has done well...but he has massive deficiencies which will stop us winning a major trophy IMO. And in his tenure so far he hasnt show me anything to change my opinion. Also, ive not just brought this up now...ive stated it throughout and been hammered for it.

Southgate chose the penalty takers?! What?! If thats serious then ive never heard of it before.

[Dirtydave]

My heart goes out to Rashford, Sancho and Sako...

What was Sterling, Grealish, Phillips thinking allowing a 19 year old kid to take the biggest kick of a ball in a generation. I'm particularly annoyed with sterling, been talking him up for months, he looked like he was developing into a leader then bottles it.

[owen10ozzy]

My heart goes out to Rashford, Sancho and Sako...

What was Sterling, Grealish, Phillips thinking allowing a 19 year old kid to take the biggest kick of a ball in a generation. I'm particularly annoyed with sterling, been talking him up for months, he looked like he was developing into a leader then bottles it.

They didnt decide....Southgate did. Thats incredible!

[Dolphin Ziggler]

And anyone calling for Southgate to go can get to Frak

The Italians with that defence were there for the taking but Southgate decided to sit back, it's indefensible I'm afraid.

Got it wrong tonight. Got us to a final. After a tournament before a semi-final. Even if you fall into the "easy" opponents thing, we beat them all till we met a good team on form that made them great, even if it wont last. 

Didn't take hold of the game, think all the subs were wrong, the only right one probably far too late (Grealish). 

Genuinely think they just didn't know how to manage a 1-0 like that. They knew how to manage it with 30 left, but not with 70/80. They just tried to do what they would have with 30 left, and time caught up with them. 

Henderson was poor. Saka looked lost, in the end shoved into central midfield, I guess so he could take a pen. Mount had faded earlier and should have gone, whilst Rice definitely has the legs to have played 120, let alone 90. Sterling was gone, so for him to be on that long when he wasn't even a top 5 taker was another poor choice. Think losing Foden was also an issue, think he'd have been a great option as a man who holds onto the ball well. 

Still, two goals all tournament, both set pieces. No defeats. Excellent displays in there, with Shaw, Stones and Sterling in the top three, Pickford just behind and Phillips emerging to form a smart midfield partnership with Rice. It's a shame that, for games we need it, we don't have that player who can use the ball like Modric or Pedri.

[JDizzle]

My heart goes out to Rashford, Sancho and Sako...

What was Sterling, Grealish, Phillips thinking allowing a 19 year old kid to take the biggest kick of a ball in a generation. I'm particularly annoyed with sterling, been talking him up for months, he looked like he was developing into a leader then bottles it.

They didnt decide....Southgate did. Thats incredible!

Should just let the players decide so Henderson can take another crap penalty. He picked who he thought were the best takers. They missed. Poopie happens - it’s penalties.

[Soul Requiem]

And anyone calling for Southgate to go can get to Frak

The Italians with that defence were there for the taking but Southgate decided to sit back, it's indefensible I'm afraid.

Got it wrong tonight. Got us to a final. After a tournament before a semi-final. Even if you fall into the "easy" opponents thing, we beat them all till we met a good team on form that made them great, even if it wont last. 

Didn't take hold of the game, think all the subs were wrong, the only right one probably far too late (Grealish). 

Genuinely think they just didn't know how to manage a 1-0 like that. They knew how to manage it with 30 left, but not with 70/80. They just tried to do what they would have with 30 left, and time caught up with them. 

Henderson was poor. Saka looked lost, in the end shoved into central midfield, I guess so he could take a pen. Mount had faded earlier and should have gone, whilst Rice definitely has the legs to have played 120, let alone 90. Sterling was gone, so for him to be on that long when he wasn't even a top 5 taker was another poor choice. Think losing Foden was also an issue, think he'd have been a great option as a man who holds onto the ball well. 

Still, two goals all tournament, both set pieces. No defeats. Excellent displays in there, with Shaw, Stones and Sterling in the top three, Pickford just behind and Phillips emerging to form a smart midfield partnership with Rice. It's a shame that, for games we need it, we don't have that player who can use the ball like Modric or Pedri.

I just hope it doesn't affect the young lads going forward especially Saka. Rashford as honorable as his intentions have been and they go beyond football has been shattered for months now while Sancho was mismanaged. I feel for the guys but what a ride it's been, no criticism of the players at all, they can only play to the tactics they're given.

Misses your last point to start with Dolph so apologies for the edit. I've said from day one that we've produced two playmakers in my sporting lifetime and both were misused, oh to have a Scholes or Carrick.

[alfie]

Owen I hear what you are saying. But did you not state before the game that Italy were strong favourites to win ? Not just on penalties either... And did not the maligned wing back set up create the opening goal for England ?

Did England go too defensive ? I'm inclined to think they did. But apart from one messy and frankly a bit lucky goal , Italy did not walk all over England , did they? Plenty of possession , sure . But we expected that.

I am not saying Southgate is any tactical genius. But I think it is a bit rich to set this England team up as some kind of super power who are held back by a poor manager . They're developing. They're developing under a manager who has a plan - flawed though it may be - and deserves the chance to go on from here.

We've had high profile managers before and it has often ended in tears. Let's not throw out the one with the best record in fifty years just yet , eh ?

I'll wait and see where they go from here. With a lot more hope than I've had for a long time.

[Dirtydave]

My heart goes out to Rashford, Sancho and Sako...

What was Sterling, Grealish, Phillips thinking allowing a 19 year old kid to take the biggest kick of a ball in a generation. I'm particularly annoyed with sterling, been talking him up for months, he looked like he was developing into a leader then bottles it.

They didnt decide....Southgate did. Thats incredible!

Should just let the players decide so Henderson can take another crap penalty. He picked who he thought were the best takers. They missed. Poopie happens - it’s penalties.

I get that argument, but do you honestly believe a leader like sterling couldn't put the hammer down and demand a penalty?

It's such a disappointment!

[GSC]

It kinda is what it is. You can pick it apart, but the 2 guys who missed for Italy are both experienced takers

[Duty281]

That last BBC montage was rather sweet.

England didn't have the right set-up to manage a 1-0 lead (or anything really). They should have had Sterling and Saka on the pitch, Walker and Shaw as the full-backs, and hitting the Italians with pace on the counter. That was England's best chance. They basically ended up playing with a back 8 for much of it, and only Kane and Sterling as the attackers - they were easily picked off by the Italians. And both of them were 'gone' energy-wise after 70 minutes.

Grealish came on too late. So did Sancho. Would have liked to have seen Bellingham at some point in the midfield. It's the most frustrating of defeats because while Italy were good, they weren't great, and it was there to be won, especially when Chiesa went off.

[JDizzle]

My heart goes out to Rashford, Sancho and Sako...

What was Sterling, Grealish, Phillips thinking allowing a 19 year old kid to take the biggest kick of a ball in a generation. I'm particularly annoyed with sterling, been talking him up for months, he looked like he was developing into a leader then bottles it.

They didnt decide....Southgate did. Thats incredible!

Should just let the players decide so Henderson can take another crap penalty. He picked who he thought were the best takers. They missed. Poopie happens - it’s penalties.

I get that argument, but do you honestly believe a leader like sterling couldn't put the hammer down and demand a penalty?

It's such a disappointment!

Sterling misses more penalties than he scores. He’d be a long way down my list. Whether he should still have been on the pitch if he wasn’t taking a penalty is a different argument - get some minutes into Sancho or Rashfordand get them up to speed.

[Soul Requiem]

I did find it strange that Mount dropped deeper alongside Phillips with Henderson further up the pitch.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I'm not over-analysing the penalties or takers. They were not made up on the hoof or about volunteering. Anyone with that opinion can get out, you're not smart enough to think about typing this late. 

I'm 32, I haven't seen a better England team from this. I've seen much better players listed, but not better. Southgate gets huge credit for that, huge credit for the attitude of his squad and the way they present themselves too. 

But he's not perfect and reminds me a little of David Moyes. Not too much stylistically, but in that it feels like you can sense fear in him during games. Sometimes it feels like he's happy to accept defending bravely but a bit desperately because it's working, and then only changes when resolve is broken. 

I still really think it was a team that didn't know how to manage the lead. That said, think we'd have won it if Rashford scores the penalty. And think they were getting away with a lot from a weak refereeing performance. But then I have felt all tournament that this "let it go" style hasn't been good refereeing because you follow the blooming rules. Isn't up to the officials to get a flow out of the game, they are there to officiate.

[Galted]

Grealish came on too late. So did Sancho. Would have liked to have seen Bellingham at some point in the midfield. It's the most frustrating of defeats because while Italy were good, they weren't great, and it was there to be won, especially when Chiesa went off.

Mystery why he took Grealish.  Brings him on too late, no-one passes to him, everyone too knackered to make runs off him, just leaves him skipping about outside the box looking for a foul when there's no-one who can take a decent free-kick if he gets one.

[Duty281]

I'll wait and see where they go from here. With a lot more hope than I've had for a long time.

I don't feel much hope. Next World Cup the first 'big' nation England come up against and it's a back five and pack your bags time, or maybe pray the penalty dice go England's way. Sure, England will beat Paraguay, South Korea, Egypt and Sweden on the way to give us some optimism, but it'll doubtless come crashing down vs a tier-one side.

[Duty281]

Grealish came on too late. So did Sancho. Would have liked to have seen Bellingham at some point in the midfield. It's the most frustrating of defeats because while Italy were good, they weren't great, and it was there to be won, especially when Chiesa went off.

Mystery why he took Grealish.  Brings him on too late, no-one passes to him, everyone too knackered to make runs off him, just leaves him skipping about outside the box looking for a foul when there's no-one who can take a decent free-kick if he gets one.

Criminally under-used at this tournament. Made an excellent impact v Germany and started well v the Czechs, got no reward from Southgate for doing so.

[Duty281]

I've liked the refereeing at this tournament, though Jorginho should have been sent off tonight. The games have had a good flow and it's what we all want to see. Glad it's not the Copa America where the officiating is farcical.

Pretty decent tournament overall, actually, my expectations weren't high because of the global situation, but there's been some decent games, quality entertainment and the usual England disappointment (if a little later this year). Lord knows what Qatar 2022 will be like.

[Duty281]

Donnarumma got player of the tournament, by the way. That shoot-out probably helped him over the line, because he didn't have a lot else to do tonight. Pedri won the young player of the tournament.

[alfie]

I'll wait and see where they go from here. With a lot more hope than I've had for a long time.

I don't feel much hope. Next World Cup the first 'big' nation England come up against and it's a back five and pack your bags time, or maybe pray the penalty dice go England's way. Sure, England will beat Paraguay, South Korea, Egypt and Sweden on the way to give us some optimism, but it'll doubtless come crashing down vs a tier-one side.

OK , Eeyore If you want to be glass half empty , fair enough : I don't have enough years left to wait another fifty five so will have to remain glass half full and hope it comes home soon...

In all seriousness: do you not think they can improve ? Not saying they're going to the next WC as favourites but surely they are in a whole different universe now to the mob that crashed out to Iceland just five years ago ...

I'm gutted this morning but will take more good out of the last few weeks than disappointment.

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