Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July

First topic message reminder :

                               
CELL C SHARKS v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Wednesday 7 July
KO: 19:00 SAST / 18:00 UK / 21:00 Dubai  
Emirates Airline Park (Ellis Park), Johannesburg
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
Assistant Referee 1: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Assistant Referee 2: AJ Jacobs (SARU)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SARU)

TEAMS:

CELL C SHARKS:
1. Khwezi Mona
2. Fez Mbatha
3. Khutha Mchunu
4. Ruben van Heerden
5. Hyron Andrews
6. James Venter
7. Thembelani Bholi
8. Phepsi Buthelezi (c)

9. Jaden Hendrikse
10. Curwin Bosch
11. Thaakir Abrahams
12. Marius Louw
13. Jeremy Ward
14. Werner Kok
15. Manie Libbok

16. Kerron van Vuuren
17. Ntuthuko Mchunu
18. Wiehahn Herbst
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson
22. Grant Williams
23. Anthony Volmink

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets, Wales) #850

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #848
4. Iain Henderson – Captain (Ulster Rugby, Ireland) #808
5. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales)
6. Josh Navidi (Cardiff Rugby, Wales)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England)
8. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
23. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844

COMMENTARY:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There're still 2 players in isolation as well. Not sure who they are, Watson and A N Other?

Given he didn't feature you have to think the other is Davies.

I'm just guessing on Watson as well. There were a few people from that list above who didn't make the team in the end.

Re the vaccine, I am surprised it wasn't mandated. I'd be amazed should any of the squad be ruled out from taking it due to a medical reason. It's simply that even being a group of fit young men getting it can lay you low for a week and more (ignoring long covid). Reducing your risk of getting it and reducing the risk of high acuity would be a basic precaution.

Pot Hale wrote:So who is likely to be in for the weekend's game? Looking at appearances so far, 6 players have played in all 3 games, and 13 players have only appeared in 1 game with 2 of those only as replacements. If you assume the 6 who've featured in all 3 to date won't be picked, could you assume the 13 who've only had one game will be selected again? And who is likely to feature from the remainder?

All 3 to date
Adams S S S
Aki S R S
Faletau R S R
Farrell R S S
Henderson S R S
Price R S S

Only 1 to date
Beard - - S
Beirne S - -
Biggar S - -
Curry - - S
Davies - R -
Harris S -
Henshaw S - -
Hill - S -
Hogg - S -
Murray S - -
Navidi - - S
A Watson R - -
Williams S - -

2 Games to date
Conan S - R
Dickie - S R
Daly - R S
Fagerson - R S
Furlong S - R
George R S -
Itoje - S R
Jones R S -
Lawes R S -
Owens S - R
Russell - S R
Simmonds - R S
Sinckler R S -
Sutherland S - R
Van der Merwe S - S
Vunipola - R S
H Watson - S R
Zammit - S S

I would think seeing that this is the same opponent for the lions it would be prudent to put a side together of those that has had the least minutes so far

Would be a good comparison of performances for Gatland

There are a few injuries in the squad though I would imagine, think Henshaw has a hamstring strain for example.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re the vaccine, I am surprised it wasn't mandated. I'd be amazed should any of the squad be ruled out from taking it due to a medical reason. It's simply that even being a group of fit young men getting it can lay you low for a week and more (ignoring long covid). Reducing your risk of getting it and reducing the risk of high acuity would be a basic precaution.

This should help put the vax issue to bed. The primary point of the vaccines is to protect you from me, as in protect from transmission. Secondarily is to protect me from you. How Lions management could bring unvaccinated people or people who don't have antibodies on tour (management and players) is either daft or worse.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9770485/All-92-COVID-19-related-deaths-Maryland-people-unvaccinated.html

doctor_grey wrote:...This should help put the  vax issue to bed...

Some news which is now being widely reported in Japan:

Michael Andrew, the 2016 world champion in the 100-meter individual medley, has not received the COVID-19 vaccine and does not plan on receiving it in time for the Tokyo Olympics, he said during a pre-Olympics USA Swimming news conference in Honolulu on Thursday.

"I am not vaccinated. My reason behind it is -- for one, it was in the last moment I didn't want to put anything in my body that I didn't know how I would potentially react to," Andrew said, adding later that he does not plan on getting the vaccine in the distant future. "As an athlete on the elite level, everything we do is very calculated, for me in the training cycles and especially at trials, I didn't want to risk any days out, because there are periods where if you take a vaccine, you have to deal with some days off."

Andrew, 22, is representing the United States in his first Olympics in the 100-meter breaststroke, 200-meter individual medley and 50-meter freestyle. He said he has been following the same protocols as everybody else on Team USA during training camp in Hawaii.

"Lots of testing, masks, socially distanced -- obviously staying away from the crowds, everything like that," he said. He also added that he will follow the same protocols in Tokyo, including testing every day. "We feel very safe and protected knowing that we are minimizing risks as much as possible," Andrew said.

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31785830/swimming-world-champion-michael-andrew-say-vaccinated-tokyo-olympics

British and Irish Lions: L Williams, A Watson, Daly, Harris, Van der Merwe; Biggar, Davies; Sutherland, George, Furlong, Itoje, Hill, Beirne, H Watson, Conan.

Replacements: Owens, Jones, Sinckler, Lawes, Simmonds, Curry, Murray, Russell.

Gatland likes this back-row. The starting front row with replacements is also likely to be what we see for the tests, IMO.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re the vaccine, I am surprised it wasn't mandated. I'd be amazed should any of the squad be ruled out from taking it due to a medical reason. It's simply that even being a group of fit young men getting it can lay you low for a week and more (ignoring long covid). Reducing your risk of getting it and reducing the risk of high acuity would be a basic precaution.

This should help put the  vax issue to bed.  The primary point of the vaccines is to protect you from me, as in protect from transmission.  Secondarily is to protect me from you.  How Lions management could bring unvaccinated people or people who don't have antibodies on tour (management and players) is either daft or worse.  
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9770485/All-92-COVID-19-related-deaths-Maryland-people-unvaccinated.html

Some of the reasons why people believe you shouldnt take the vaccine are very entertaining, my favourites:

Its part of a massive government lead cull of the population
It makes you magnetic
It makes you 5g
It is micro chipping to monitor your movements
It is made out of bat blood
it will alter your DNA

Collapse2005 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re the vaccine, I am surprised it wasn't mandated. I'd be amazed should any of the squad be ruled out from taking it due to a medical reason. It's simply that even being a group of fit young men getting it can lay you low for a week and more (ignoring long covid). Reducing your risk of getting it and reducing the risk of high acuity would be a basic precaution.

This should help put the  vax issue to bed.  The primary point of the vaccines is to protect you from me, as in protect from transmission.  Secondarily is to protect me from you.  How Lions management could bring unvaccinated people or people who don't have antibodies on tour (management and players) is either daft or worse.  
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9770485/All-92-COVID-19-related-deaths-Maryland-people-unvaccinated.html

Some of the reasons why people believe you shouldnt take the vaccine are very entertaining, my favourites:

Its part of a massive government lead cull of the population
It makes you magnetic
It makes you 5g
It is micro chipping to monitor your movements
It is made out of bat blood
it will alter your DNA

I’ve read nothing that disproves any of that (meaning I’ve read nothing on the ingredients of the vaccine or it’s effects on the body!)

mikey_dragon wrote:British and Irish Lions: L Williams, A Watson, Daly, Harris, Van der Merwe; Biggar, Davies; Sutherland, George, Furlong, Itoje, Hill, Beirne, H Watson, Conan.

Replacements: Owens, Jones, Sinckler, Lawes, Simmonds, Curry, Murray, Russell.

Gatland likes this back-row. The starting front row with replacements is also likely to be what we see for the tests, IMO.

VDM is going to be knackered! He’s played a lot hasn’t he???

Yeah but if they wanted to cull the population surely the obidient people that do what the govt says are the wrong group to cull, you would be left with all the headbangers.

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah but if they wanted to cull the population surely the obidient people that do what the govt says are the wrong group to cull, you would be left with all the headbangers.

...are you Bill Burr in disguise? he made the same observation

Interesting midfield options, always thought Harris' handling was a bit on the meh side so may find the ball doesnt flow as well down the backline

Tramptastic wrote:Interesting midfield options, always thought Harris' handling was a bit on the meh side so may find the ball doesnt flow as well down the backline

Better than he is given credit for. I think he had a few wobbles in his first Scotland appearances, but has improved a lot since then.

I have never known him play 12 though. Maybe he is getting a shot to see how versatile he might be for the bench, especially if they only put 2 backs on it, could he cover 12,13 and wing?

Farrell looked like he got injured on Wednesday in any case and Aki had a good work out. With Henshaw likely still out as well, maybe not to many other options.

That selection takes account of most of the players who had only one game, and Williams and Davies who'd only been subs once - so makes sense for them to get a start.

It will still leave 4 players who will only have played/started once:

Henshaw - injury
Beard - started last game
Hogg - started second game but likely C19 candidate
Navidi - started last game.

BigGee wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:Interesting midfield options, always thought Harris' handling was a bit on the meh side so may find the ball doesnt flow as well down the backline

Better than he is given credit for. I think he had a few wobbles in his first Scotland appearances, but has improved a lot since then.

I have never known him play 12 though. Maybe he is getting a shot to see how versatile he might be for the bench, especially if they only put 2 backs on it, could he cover 12,13 and wing?

Farrell looked like he got injured on Wednesday in any case and Aki had a good work out. With Henshaw likely still out as well, maybe not to many other options.

Farrell and Aki have both played 3 games already.  
Henshaw is injured.   Daly is not a 12, but does play wing and FB. If Russell comes on, perhaps shift Biggar to 12, Harris to 13, and Daly in the backfield if needed.

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:...This should help put the  vax issue to bed...

Some news which is now being widely reported in Japan:

Michael Andrew, the 2016 world champion in the 100-meter individual medley, has not received the COVID-19 vaccine and does not plan on receiving it in time for the Tokyo Olympics, he said during a pre-Olympics USA Swimming news conference in Honolulu on Thursday.

"I am not vaccinated. My reason behind it is -- for one, it was in the last moment I didn't want to put anything in my body that I didn't know how I would potentially react to," Andrew said, adding later that he does not plan on getting the vaccine in the distant future. "As an athlete on the elite level, everything we do is very calculated, for me in the training cycles and especially at trials, I didn't want to risk any days out, because there are periods where if you take a vaccine, you have to deal with some days off."

Andrew, 22, is representing the United States in his first Olympics in the 100-meter breaststroke, 200-meter individual medley and 50-meter freestyle. He said he has been following the same protocols as everybody else on Team USA during training camp in Hawaii.

"Lots of testing, masks, socially distanced -- obviously staying away from the crowds, everything like that," he said. He also added that he will follow the same protocols in Tokyo, including testing every day. "We feel very safe and protected knowing that we are minimizing risks as much as possible," Andrew said.

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31785830/swimming-world-champion-michael-andrew-say-vaccinated-tokyo-olympics

It's weird, but many athletes in the individual sports like swimming already live in these bizarre live-to-train semi-bubbles which existed before Covid-19.  The current generation have been raised to be hyper-aware of what they put in their bodies, either to prevent failed drug tests, enhance performance legally or illegally, or to prevent a sliver of under-performance.  They can't go to a chemist and ask for an antihistamine if they have a cold without nine layers of approval.  

On the other hand, their medical staff has to advise better.  Covid-19 broke all the rules.  He has got to know or be advised he can contract Covid-19 and it won't show up in tests for days, or maybe longer.  And there is solid data indicating performance returns to absolute normal in 99.99% of people, including pro athletes, after the flu like symptoms of the jab have worn off, if they even have any.  His decision could be from poor advice, poor information, paranoia, or could be like Collapse says below:

Collapse2005 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Re the vaccine, I am surprised it wasn't mandated. I'd be amazed should any of the squad be ruled out from taking it due to a medical reason. It's simply that even being a group of fit young men getting it can lay you low for a week and more (ignoring long covid). Reducing your risk of getting it and reducing the risk of high acuity would be a basic precaution.

This should help put the  vax issue to bed.  The primary point of the vaccines is to protect you from me, as in protect from transmission.  Secondarily is to protect me from you.  How Lions management could bring unvaccinated people or people who don't have antibodies on tour (management and players) is either daft or worse.  
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9770485/All-92-COVID-19-related-deaths-Maryland-people-unvaccinated.html

Some of the reasons why people believe you shouldnt take the vaccine are very entertaining, my favourites:

Its part of a massive government lead cull of the population
It makes you magnetic
It makes you 5g
It is micro chipping to monitor your movements
It is made out of bat blood
it will alter your DNA

When I received my second jab, the nurse jokingly asked if I want the Google jab or the Apple jab.  I am an Apple guy...

This is nuts, I am a dumb bone doc not a virologist.  I am happier with a chainsaw than a syringe.  And here I am preaching about effing micro organisms.  The species is doomed.

As the old saying goes in the land of the blind the one eyed man should be listened to.

Unfortunately being blind does not mean being unable to shout very loudly

Tramptastic wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah but if they wanted to cull the population surely the obidient people that do what the govt says are the wrong group to cull, you would be left with all the headbangers.

...are you Bill Burr in disguise? he made the same observation

Haha I might have borrowed it from him alright

Michael Andrew is a God fearing South African, Id say that is a bigger reason why he is refusing the vaccine than for diet reasons. Could he be one of those God will protect me types?

I also heard somewhere God helps those who help themselves.  But I am the last person to get into any discussion about religion.

Taking the 5 reasons Collapse mentioned:

Its part of a massive government lead cull of the population - Exactly right.  Don't get vaxxed and you get culled out of the gene pool.
It makes you magnetic - could help attract women
It makes you 5g - then I can throw away my effing cell phone
It is micro chipping to monitor your movements - if someone wants to know when I am sitting on the toilet reading the newspaper, have at it.
It is made out of bat blood - and Haggis is made out of.....
it will alter your DNA - my DNA sucks these days.  Needs a swift kick regardless...

Well if anyone micrchips me they will soon think the chip is broken, I am a homebody, don’t travel much.

Sharks team for tomorrow.

– 15 Anthony Volmink, 14 Marnus Potgieter, 13 Werner Kok, 12 Marray Koster, 11 Thaakir Abrahams, 10 Lionel Cronje, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Phepsi Buthelezi (c), 7 Mpilo Gumede, 6 Dylan Richardson 5 Reniel Hugo, 4 Le Roux Roets, 3 Wiehahn Herbst, 2 Kerron van Vuuren, 1 Nthuthuko Mchunu.
Subs: 16 Dan Jooste, 17 MJ Majola, 18 Khutha Mchunu, 19 Thembelani Bholi, 20 Jeandre Labuschagne, 21 Cameron Wright, 22 Boeta Chamberlain, 23 Jeremy Ward, 24 Lourens Adriaanse, 25 Rynhardt Jonker, 26 Curwin Bosch.

Looks like they beefed up the pack, moved Werner Kok to the midfield.

The bench will be cut before the match starts

Looks like a mix of potential test team plus whoever is left in some positions! Harris isn't a 12 at all, but he's probably more of a 12 than any of the other options.

I hope we don't injure Hamish - he's played a lot too.

And yes Duhan has played a lot and I hope it doesn't lead to a pulled hammy or something that rules him out. He's not what you'd call a diehard trainer either - he was treated very much like a thoroughbred at Edinburgh, where he had his own regime and often missed the hard sessions. Given Cockerill was coach that shows how much they worked to what was best with him. In the Lions he won't know what's hit him!

I watched the Sharks-Lions match again this afternoon.  And the more I watched, the less impressed I became with the Lions.  If the Sharks didn't fumble away some chances early on this could have been a much closer score and a real tough match all around.  Plus that yellow card didn't help them either.  It was not an egregious penalty.  The Lions attack was not consistent, or even that good.  Many tries came from Sharks errors or long distance individual efforts.  

For the Lions, I thought the two starting props could go home, the replacements were significantly better and maybe are the test starters, unless Sinckler has something to say about it.  LCD is really good and looks like the test starter to me.  Henderson is also really good and a tough dude, but has a tough fight for the starting second row slots, though I would have no probs seeing him start.  Not so much for Beard.  Navidi is always around the ball but was kind of quiet as was Curry who seemed not very impactful.  I like Simmonds at 8.  Faletau came on at 6, does he play there regularly?  If so, I kind of like the idea of him, Watson and Simmonds.  

Price was off and on for me, but not doing himself any harm.  Farrell and Aki, meh.  Daly looked very good again in the 13 slot on attack and on defense.  Adams ain't no fullback but he and van der Merwe sure look like the starting wings. I probably forgot to praise or disparage some players, but can save that for the next match.

And by the way, why couldn't the Pumas reschedule their Currie Cup match and go slam the Lions?

That looks pretty much like the test pack for me.
Backs a bit cobbled together but I get the impression that it’s a big day for Elliot Daly. If he continues as is and Koch does not run all over him, I can see him claiming the 13 shirt.
The bench smacks of the test bench too.

Heuer27 wrote:That looks pretty much like the test pack for me.
Backs a bit cobbled together but I get the impression that it’s a big day for Elliot Daly. If he continues as is and Koch does not run all over him, I can see him claiming the 13 shirt.
The bench smacks of the test bench too.

Really? That looks like a mid week pack. No Furlong, Owens, Itoje, Watson, Beirne etc.

Watson has been the forward of the tour so far and I cant see Furlong and Itoje not making the team.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:That looks pretty much like the test pack for me.
Backs a bit cobbled together but I get the impression that it’s a big day for Elliot Daly. If he continues as is and Koch does not run all over him, I can see him claiming the 13 shirt.
The bench smacks of the test bench too.

Really? That looks like a mid week pack. No Furlong, Itoje, Watson, Beirne etc.

I'm guessing you're looking at an outdated team sheet - they're all starting tonight

Oh right, was just looking at the one at the top of the article. Thanks

Whatever the test side we will have some seriously strong subs on the bench

Aye. I should probably learn to use the quote function properly

15 Liam Williams, 14 Anthony Watson, 13 Elliot Daly, 12 Chris Harris, 11 Duhan van der Merwe, 10 Dan Biggar, 9 Gareth Davies, 8 Jack Conan, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Tadhg Beirne, 5 Jonny Hill, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Jamie George (captain), 1 Rory Sutherland.
Replacements: 16 Ken Owens, 17 Wyn Jones, 18 Kyle Sinckler, 19 Courtney Lawes, 20 Sam Simmonds, 21 Tom Curry, 22 Conor Murray, 23 Finn Russell.

Heuer27 wrote:Aye. I should probably learn to use the quote function properly

Heuer27 wrote:Aye. I should probably learn to use the quote function properly

Jimbo is available for tuition

BigGee wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:Aye. I should probably learn to use the quote function properly

Jimbo is available for tuition :)I have been available for years; but the tutors refuse to come.

Unfortunately I'm all too aware of Jimbos prowess in that dept. Would be a bit like the blind leading the blind.

Reports say Marcus Smith has been called up as cover for an injured Finn Russell

Well boys, lets hope the Sharks have a bit more fight in them this time round

You guys might be interested to know what the South Africans say about test combination

Matfield and Robbie Kempson says Biggar, Farrell, Henshaw at 10,12,13

Rugby Fan wrote:Reports say Marcus Smith has been called up as cover for an injured Finn Russell

Great news for the young guy. He'll learn a lot on tour.

Yeah good luck to him, seems a decent talent.

Wouldnt be surprised if the Lions start with Biggar, Aki and Henshaw for the tests but it will be that or Aki out and Farrell in.

Gats has said Russell has been carrying an Achilles injury, slight tear. If that is the case then why has he been playing. I know of more than a couple of folk who have snapped their Achilles on the back of playing with a slight problem.
That is really poor player management.

Smith has never played a match with anyone in the squad apart from Sinckler. I wonder whether any other late Lions call-up has ever had so little experience with the other players.

These obstructive forward pods blocking access to the Lions backline must be blown, it is absolutely blatant

All I can hear on comentary is Wayne Barnes sucking in big ones. This is one occasion I could do without a ref mike,

I wonder how good Farrell's shoulder is? Russell is the one that Smith is coming in to cover, but the Lions could well be running out of FH's quickly - which will mean a lot will depend on Biggar.

VDM really gunning for a test start!