Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July

First topic message reminder :

                               
CELL C SHARKS v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Wednesday 7 July
KO: 19:00 SAST / 18:00 UK / 21:00 Dubai  
Emirates Airline Park (Ellis Park), Johannesburg
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
Assistant Referee 1: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Assistant Referee 2: AJ Jacobs (SARU)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SARU)

TEAMS:

CELL C SHARKS:
1. Khwezi Mona
2. Fez Mbatha
3. Khutha Mchunu
4. Ruben van Heerden
5. Hyron Andrews
6. James Venter
7. Thembelani Bholi
8. Phepsi Buthelezi (c)

9. Jaden Hendrikse
10. Curwin Bosch
11. Thaakir Abrahams
12. Marius Louw
13. Jeremy Ward
14. Werner Kok
15. Manie Libbok

16. Kerron van Vuuren
17. Ntuthuko Mchunu
18. Wiehahn Herbst
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson
22. Grant Williams
23. Anthony Volmink

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets, Wales) #850

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #848
4. Iain Henderson – Captain (Ulster Rugby, Ireland) #808
5. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales)
6. Josh Navidi (Cardiff Rugby, Wales)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England)
8. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
23. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844

COMMENTARY:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Snyman looks to be ruled out too. Did I read here that Etzebeth has a cracked rib?

Yes Snyman is most oikely out he has to go for a skin graft, Etzebeth has a suspected rib break, not confirmed yet

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Snyman looks to be ruled out too. Did I read here that Etzebeth has a cracked rib?

Yes Snyman is most oikely out he has to go for a skin graft, Etzebeth has a suspected rib break, not confirmed yet

Assuming that is the barbequed bok incident.

yup

On Navidi, I’ve always seen him as more of a 6. Although as mentioned he is able to play across the back row. I like him at 6 with an out and out jackaller at 7, but he’s played well at 7 when I’ve seen him.

I may have got my timelines mixed up a bit, but from memory he was played in a few different positions across the backrow for the Blues but the main 7 at the blues was Warburton (when he played) and then the next great hope Ellis Jenkins who was being touted as a future Wales captain before a horror injury saw him out for over a year. He’s just returning to playing now and going forward I would expect to see him at 7 for the Blues and Navidi at 6 (or 8 when needed). So Navidi, I think, was only ever covering 7 in the absence of those other 2. There’s a bit of competition for the 6 jersey at the Blues too with the emergence of Botham as a top player (he’s played 6 for Wales previously but this weekend played 7 vs Canada, confusingly). So lots of back row options at the Blues going forward!

That fire pit incident largely passed me by but it's the craziest thing I've heard in ages.

Snyman gone is actually a big loss to the Boks!

George Carlin wrote:I don't know what it is that I've clicked in the past but my news feed over the past fortnight seems to comprise people writing for various Irish mainstream and rugby publications whose collective theme song seems to be that Finn Russell is rubbish and shouldn't even be out there. One of them nominated Sexton as his 'starting fly half for the tests'.

Didnt think Russell had a great six nations this year and he has been fine thus far on tour but I think the point is he is too much of a risk to include in the tests because although he can create magic he is also subject to some real blunders and poor decisions from time to time.

George Carlin wrote:That fire pit incident largely passed me by but it's the craziest thing I've heard in ages.

Snyman gone is actually a big loss to the Boks!

Thought he was already injured prior to that incident, pretty sure he hasnt played in ages.

lostinwales wrote:

MichaelT wrote:

George Carlin wrote: as Sinkler knows having conceded a number of penalties to that Scottish scrum this year.

Pretty sure Sinckler was banned for the Scottish game? If its the Six Nations you're talking about.

Plus wrong side of the scrum. But I understand the original point.

Sorry - yes, I'm impressed by how many mistakes I was able to make in 2 sentences. The original point was that England conceded quite a few scrum penalties against the Scots and most pundits put that down to good technical scrummaging and a very low error count on the Jockistan side.

George Carlin wrote:That fire pit incident largely passed me by but it's the craziest thing I've heard in ages.

Snyman gone is actually a big loss to the Boks!

Snyman out, Etzebeth rumoured to be struggling and De Jager now testing positive for COVID. Their fearsome stable of second rows is being depleted rather quickly

Collapse2005 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I don't know what it is that I've clicked in the past but my news feed over the past fortnight seems to comprise people writing for various Irish mainstream and rugby publications whose collective theme song seems to be that Finn Russell is rubbish and shouldn't even be out there. One of them nominated Sexton as his 'starting fly half for the tests'.

Didnt think Russell had a great six nations this year and he has been fine thus far on tour but I think the point is he is too much of a risk to include in the tests because although he can create magic he is also subject to some real blunders and poor decisions from time to time.

fortunatly Gatland is up to date. That caricature might have been true 5 years ago, It no longer is.

Watching the game on Saturday, Finn Russell did some magical stuff, but for all his exuberance, he made a lot more mistakes than what he did good, and against better opposition he will cost us, and again, he kicked the ball out on the full, then laughed about it, now if that was Dan Biggar he would have been livid with himself.

Just fine margins though, and perhaps I am being picky. What he did well, no other fly half on tour could do as good, but players like Biggar will make a lot less mistakes, so is it horses for courses ?

Against a full strength South African side, I would go with a player who is not going to be a loose cannon, and a player who has experience of beating the Boks 5 times out of the last 7 games. But I would not be upset if Finn Russell started either.

he made a lot more mistakes than what he did good

He made some mistakes but he also created a fair bit more good stuff. He does certainly make more mistakes than Biggar but he was also handicapped by Farrell outside him in that game. Watch a few Racing games to see how good he is

Having said that I think I would still start Biggar with Russell on the bench maybe?

TJ wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I don't know what it is that I've clicked in the past but my news feed over the past fortnight seems to comprise people writing for various Irish mainstream and rugby publications whose collective theme song seems to be that Finn Russell is rubbish and shouldn't even be out there. One of them nominated Sexton as his 'starting fly half for the tests'.

Didnt think Russell had a great six nations this year and he has been fine thus far on tour but I think the point is he is too much of a risk to include in the tests because although he can create magic he is also subject to some real blunders and poor decisions from time to time.

fortunatly Gatland is up to date.  That caricature might have been true 5 years ago,  It no longer is.

Disagree, its hardly a caricature and to be honest 5 years ago I think he was playing better and was a better bet for the Lions, this year he was particularly hot and cold.

If Gatland doesnt select him to start the tests does that then mean he isnt up to date? Unless there are injuries Im fairly sure Biggar will start with Farrell back up as he covers 10 and 12.

TJ wrote:

he made a lot more mistakes than what he did good

He made some mistakes but he also created a fair bit more good stuff.    He does certainly make more mistakes than Biggar but he was also handicapped by Farrell outside him in that game.  Watch a few Racing games to see how good he is

Having said that I think I would still start Biggar with Russell on the bench maybe?  

Hi TJ, I know how good he is, he is a very talented player, but he is very "maverick" for want of a better word, and like I said, perhaps it's horses for courses, it does get to me though how he just laughs at his mistakes, but I guess that's just his personality. I seem to get the impression with him, that he thinks that as long as he does something exciting and good, it cancels off his mistakes, when in reality, against decent opposition, his mistakes could end up costing us.

I am no fan of his, but I do not think that you can blame Farrell for this.

Also, what in the hell is going on with the South African squad ?

They have to isolate again, because of a positive test in their squad, are they following instructions ?

LordDowlais wrote:Watching the game on Saturday, Finn Russell did some magical stuff, but for all his exuberance, he made a lot more mistakes than what he did good, and against better opposition he will cost us, and again, he kicked the ball out on the full, then laughed about it, now if that was Dan Biggar he would have been livid with himself.

Afternoon LD,

I don't think he made more mistakes that he made opportunities. Finn always plays with a smile on his face and that wasn't a "I don't give a t@ss" laugh that was his ironic "I'm b00dy made with myself" laugh (it's a coping mechanism). To be honest most 10's would've struggled with Farrell outside them, he's a totally different player for Racing, Finn  with Henshaw at I/C would be a different animal

What you have to decide is, if the Lions are losing the game and Plan A is not working, do you want a 10 that;
1. Understands what the Plan A is and why it's not working, recognise a Plan B but might not have the skillset to implement
2. Just hasn't got a clue what is the Plan A
3. Understands, even before the coaches, why the Plan A isn't working and can implement a Plan B

I'll leave you decide which 10 is which

For my part always said that I would start that I would start Biggar with Fin on the bench

collapse - I cannot see the quote now but Gatland basically praised Russells maturity, game control and ability to set folk into space.

dowlais - I think the laughter is more a nervous reaction than anything else.

Russell had a good game on saturday, yes he kicked a couple long, but that might just be adjusting to the altitude.

With FH, it is going to be horses for courses, all three could be worthy contenders.

The more interesting thing is that the way the backline played had Toonie's fingerprints all over it, moving the ball away from the pack as quickly as possible and that requires a clever passing game and someone to take on a blitz defence with kicks behind. If we are playing in a Toonie style, then maybe we need a FH in his mould as well?

The saturday game may give us more clues. Neither Farrell nor Russell benching for this game, which suggests both might be starting on saturday, so they may be persisting with the Russell-Farrell 10/12 axis.

If one of them starts at 10 and the other benches, it might be a bit clearer that they are out of the running.

TJ wrote:collapse - I cannot see the quote now but Gatland basically praised Russells maturity, game control and ability to set folk into space.

dowlais - I think the laughter is more a nervous reaction than anything else.

There you go man
https://www.theoffsideline.com/warren-gatland-wanted-to-send-a-message-to-finn-russell-about-being-a-potential-test-match-starter/

Thats the one - ta.

Its kind of funny how the same people who talk up Biggar dismiss Farrell all too easily.

LordDowlais wrote:Also, what in the hell is going on with the South African squad ?

They have to isolate again, because of a positive test in their squad, are they following instructions ?

Lood de Jager came from overseas, must have picked it up there, he has been in isolation with the squad since he arrived.

lostinwales wrote:Its kind of funny how the same people who talk up Biggar dismiss Farrell all too easily.

I think you have to consider whether a player is on form, whether that player actually plays in that position for his country (if not why not) and the general consensus of the player

Farrell has that winning mentality, brave as they come, backs his players, plays on the edge and he'll give you 100%.

Biggar & Farrell are similar players both follow the plan to the letter, problem is; what if everything is not going to plan?

Biggar is a much much better 10 than Farrell. Same type of player but biggar is better :-)

My very simplistic view on it - Biggar is a better 10 than Farrell; Farrell is a better 12 than Biggar.

The Oracle wrote:My very simplistic view on it - Biggar is a better 10 than Farrell; Farrell is a better 12 than Biggar.

So Russell will be the starting 10 then

BigGee wrote:

The Oracle wrote:My very simplistic view on it - Biggar is a better 10 than Farrell; Farrell is a better 12 than Biggar.

So Russell will be the starting 10 then

To your comment, I say 'Harrumph'.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN99jshaQbY

Really hard to know how Gats is going to play this.

In all his Lions experience, he has never worked with a backs coach like Toonie (though he would have liked to last time) nor has he ever had a FH like Russell available.

It changes the dynamics snd he would also have seen what happened to Wales and England in the WC.

Does he go with what he feels comfortable with (Gatlandball) or does he, because he can, roll the dice?

I am pretty sure from the selection and the play so far that "gatlandball" is not going to be the game. I think that limited game plan was used to make the best of the players he had in wales ( although it made me want to cry watching counter attacks being kicked away all the time)

I doubt he will go full toonbola either. I suspect we will se a more expansive gameplan simply because of the quality of creative players available to him on this tour.

Some questions:
What is Cell C, it makes this team sound like a prison gang?
Do the Sharks still have hot cheerleaders and will they be allowed in?

Cell C is a telecommunications company, Cheerleaders are in lockdown

Old Man wrote:Cell C is a telecommunications company, Cheerleaders are in lockdown

They're all in lockdown round at my house. It's tough. Just don't have any clothes to fit them.

George Carlin wrote:

Old Man wrote:Cell C is a telecommunications company, Cheerleaders are in lockdown

They're all in lockdown round at my house. It's tough. Just don't have any clothes to fit them.

Lucky man

Surely they should have been vaccinated already, essential service.

Hopefully they did, but they are stuck in the UAE with Mr Carlin, so no hope of seeing them here

Old Man wrote:Hopefully they did, but they are stuck in the UAE with Mr Carlin, so no hope of seeing them here

I'm sure we could all chip in and finance a live stream.

Mind you they'd need to be very hot cheerleaders, and in large numbers, to compensate for the occasional sighting of GC's sweaty nether regions.

How did we get onto GC's sweaty nether regions again?

RDW wrote:How did we get onto GC's sweaty nether regions again?

Again? You mean this has happened before?

Quite looking forward to see how the back row goes. Obviously Jones has largely ignored Simmonds for the super duty carrying of Vunipola but the pack seems to be pretty balanced on that regard. For me we were too slow in getting to some of the rucks last game, new combos (and a lock at flanker) didn't help but surely they'd be looking to rule the breakdown with these 3. Not I'd imagine many peoples first choice 3 but 1 that I think could work very well.

RDW wrote:How did we get onto GC's sweaty nether regions again?

Flounder, I've never been on GC's nether regions. However, whatever you mods do in your spare time...

Also, isn't it great to see the Lions fulfilling their purpose and uniting all 5 nations in a single cause? Namely arguing about whether Finn is the real deal or a hopeless liability. The Scottish posters have wrestled with this conundrum for years and finally know the answer...but we're not telling anyone.

It all total Finnsanity from here on in.

jimbopip wrote:

Old Man wrote:Hopefully they did, but they are stuck in the UAE with Mr Carlin, so no hope of seeing them here

I'm sure we could all chip in and finance a live stream.  

Mind you they'd need to be very hot cheerleaders, and in large numbers, to compensate for the occasional sighting of GC's sweaty nether regions.

I don’t think it matters whether they are just a little hot or very hot, sighting GC’s “sweaty” nether regions will require me to slaughter a pig just to get that image out of my head

On a more prosaic note; one big difference between this tour and previous Gatland led tours is that it is not at all obvious what his Test XV will be.
I think many of us would have imagined something like
1. Jones
2. Owens
3.Furlong
4.AWJ
5. Itoji
6.Conan
7. Tips
8. Faletau
9. Murray
10. Biggar
11. Adams
12. Farrell
13. Henshaw
14. LRZ
15. Hogg

I know I've included injured players in there but I'm referring to assumptions before the Japan game.

Now....
Front row: Jones and Owens haven't been 100% convincing. George and LCD both looked good. Fagerson still has to step up, but I've a feeling that he will tomorrow.
Second row; Beirne and Henderson must feel they can fill AWJ's spot.
Back Row ; Tips is a big loss but Hamish Fae The Glen looks like he will play like he does for Scotland.Conan and Simmonds both look like they fit better into the gameplan than Faletau who seems stuck in second gear at the moment. Lawes has played well at 6, but well enough for a Test start? Possibly a 4/6 cover on the bench.
9. Murray has been named captain but I think both Davies and Aldi Price are better suited to the game Toonie wants to play. Will Gats start with the safe option and have Davies or Price on the bench?
10. Biggar is obviously Gatland's man. Dancer is the one player who could be the real point of difference in the tests. Farrell is solid and reliable. At this point there are valid arguments for all of them. Defensively (and defence wins matches) Farrell-Henshaw-Harris is probably as solid as it could be. Offensively Russell-Aki-Daly would be "interesting".The fact that Henshaw and Aki are the only 12's in the squad means that we might see a lot of crash ball off first phase, before the 10 tries to go wide. Or we may need a second playmaker at 12 but Faz was none too convincing on Saturday.
Centres. Henshaw still looks the best 12 but it should come down to which pairing works best together AND complements the 10. It is interesting that Harris attacked the space at every opportunity on Saturday; has he been told that, yes he can defend but can he attack? He's probably the best defender of the 13 channel but if we have a claymore at 12 then we probably need a rapier at 13 in attack. Daly is very good at this but can he defend as well as Harris or Henshaw? I honestly have no idea who will be the starting pair here.
Back three. LRZ did himself no favours on Saturday. He should have run the other |Lions ragged, like Adams did, but he was "competent". However, he is a rare talent and should not be discounted. Duhan is that rarest of creatures; fast, big, brave and always looking to score. However, in many facets of his game he is way behind Watson and LRZ. Toonie would gamble on Duhan but will Gats? Hogg may have the 15 jersey but I think Sanjay is not far behind him. There may be a twist in that tale.

As I said, the Test 15 looks wide open in many positions which is how it should be on a tour.

I'm a bit intrigued by why people seem to think that Farrell played poorly on Saturday. I know he's a guy a lot of people dislike but what did he do wrong, or not do right?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a bit intrigued by why people seem to think that Farrell played poorly on Saturday. I know he's a guy a lot of people dislike but what did he do wrong, or not do right?

I don't recall anyone saying he played poorly, but he did not stand out either, unlike a few of his contemporary's.

On the positive side, his goal kicking was immaculate and that will count for a lot.

On the negative side, he did not quite read a couple of Russell's late passes right on the line, maybe not that surprising for someone who has not played with him before and he missed the tackle on the Lions flanker, who almost went coast to coast and scored. Other than that he was solid.

I doubt however if Farrell might need to stand out to get into the test side in the way that someone like Russell might. He will get in based on his past performances and if Gats feels he can bring that form into the test team this time around.

In other news, the game on saturday against the Bulls might be in trouble as they have Covid in their squad now.

There have been 5 cases in the Sharks camp - game now seriously in doubt apparently

Haven’t heard about the Sharks camp yet, have been really looking forward to the match

Bulls sorry!

Ah OK

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a bit intrigued by why people seem to think that Farrell played poorly on Saturday. I know he's a guy a lot of people dislike but what did he do wrong, or not do right?

Slow around the park and getting into defensive positions. Totally his fault one of the tries. he was standing behind a ruck on his heels rather than at the side on his toes. Missed a few tackles as well. I don't rate him much anyway but that was a poor performance by him. Why? hard to say but he just looked disinterested to me.

He and russell also did not click at all. Hard to say why.

Was it trying to play an unfamiliar gameplan? was it 'cos he knows he is not getting a start at 10? Was it Russell did not give him the passes he expected? worst performance from him in a long time IMO but why? dunno