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GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12.

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power!

Well im pretty sure Youngs will start the AI's so its his shirt to lose.

I think he probably will too. May take an injury to get the change.

Unless hes playing well and adapting to the change in tactics...

Will it stop him throwing the ball onto the floor and into the crowd. I'll suspend my disbelief!

There were far worse players on the pitch for England recently than Youngs.....

And?

I don't see how that impacts on Youngs passing and general form for the last few years as being a point of limitation for how I see we could play given Smith coming in and some of the guys we have (literally in some cases) waiting in the wings.

We've seen some brave selections in the past and personally I've looked on envious at the scrum halfs coming through elsewhere, lets set it up to excite and actually maximise our backline.

I've said that I wouldn't be surprised should youngs plod along with is in the AIs but nor would I be surprised should Jones roll that dice should Quirke hit the ground running and find himself catapulted in.

It's not a question of whether Youngs is "washed up" or not. It's a question of whether Eddie sees any of the other candidates as playing better than him. And who knows what's in Eddie's mind?

It doesn't really matter how well or badly a player is playing, if Eddie has decided to move on from them their exit will be swift and ruthless.

One point of data that we have is that Randall started the summer matches and played well. Another is that Smith played and played well in combination with Randall. Either or both of those might be enough.

Perhaps most important is that there's a lot pointing to this Autumn being the point where England shift into their RWC tactical set. We have a new coaching team, we've been through a crisis and a crash in performance, some new players have had a look in and Eddie has done this before.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And?

I don't see how that impacts on Youngs passing and general form for the last few years as being a point of limitation for how I see we could play given Smith coming in and some of the guys we have (literally in some cases) waiting in the wings.

We've seen some brave selections in the past and personally I've looked on envious at the scrum halfs coming through elsewhere, lets set it up to excite and actually maximise our backline.

I've said that I wouldn't be surprised should Youngs plod along with is in the AIs but nor would I be surprised should Jones roll that dice should Quirke hit the ground running and find himself catapulted in.

So who should have replaced Youngs over the last few seasons...? Everyone has been tried and generally been woeful....

Its all very well pushing for the next batch....but they have to earn their position...and so far in many positions...they havent done so.

Yes there are kids coming through who look potentially superb...but they will have to prove it on the pitch. They will get their chance.

I can only go with the calls I made on this forum over the past couple of years and they have been Spencer and Mitchell.

Spencer i agree with , but clearly has upset Jones.

Mitchell...jurys out. I think the other kids coming through are much better.

i think another crucial aspect is the number of games left to get the new additions (and new coaches) up to speed...

Three AIs this year,
Three tests next summer,
Four AIs next year ?
Six Nations x 2

Some Barbarian games or uncapped games, maybe 3 RWC warmups

So roughly 25 games, ish....?

Thats not a huge amount of games if we are looking at whole sale changes for this England side....

Personally I'm not hung up to always try to peak at world cups. England have the resources which mean to me that we should always be looking to win the next game while always developing the team and squad. If we hit the world cup and the best options are a bunch of guys with 3 caps so be it. It's nice to be able to integrate players slowly and to suit the overall team but at times depending on the age and form of players in the team and those coming through sometimes it makes sense to make more than 1 or 2, which goes back to my point of the 4 changes I think need to made to benefit us in the short and long term.

i prefer Evolution to revolution...but i just think in the current situation the side needs a bit of an overhaul...

GeordieFalcon wrote:i prefer Evolution to revolution...but i just think in the current situation the side needs a bit of an overhaul...

Accelerated evolution?
I agree.

Yes...

7.5 is correct there shouldnt be a strict focus on the world cup...you should just replace a player here and there as other better players come through...always trying to be the best and win every tournament you enter...

i just think this current group...theres more than one position or player that needs moved on.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Spencer i agree with , but clearly has upset Jones.

Mitchell...jurys out. I think the other kids coming through are much better.

Mitchell is older than I thought he was, at 24 you'd think/hope that he would really be challenging for England honours more firmly by now.  He seems to have been on the periphery/ about to break through for ages.

Sadly for him, there is a chance that he is going to miss the boat and get cast in the latter day Ben Spencer role.  I get the feeling that Randall and Mitchell are vying for a gap between the old guard in Youngs and Robson and the new guard of JVP and Quirke.

You see, i actually see more in Randall than i do in Mitchell. Randall is one to work with, along with JVP and Quirke.

Thats why i think it'll be Youngs and Randall in the AI squad...and then Youngs might be phased out as JVP and Quirke come through.

Soul Requiem wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

It's hard to play attacking rugby when your scrum half can't pass. I think a lot of our issues stem from Youngs awful service (80% of the time), it puts the 10 on the back foot straight away.

Yep a scrum half that can't pass has more than 100 caps across several England coaches and has been selected for the last three Lions Tours (opting out of two of them). That's before we consider the 14 year club career in the Prem. Still only 31 so looks likely to overtake the Funbus and be England's most capped (male) player.

Tigers fan by any chance?

Haha....good guess! To be fair, Sam wears the green tainted specs for all Tigers players, not just Youngs.

That Youngs has 100 caps is utterly criminal. it's been a huge problem position for 10 years or so now and that we've developed nobody better is a failing of the English system. Personally, Care is better and has always been, but he's not yes man like Youngs...hence why he hasn't quite managed to get rid of him.

Telling for me is that Youngs has always been in the bottom few of all the NH Int sides starting 9's. All the other nations (bar Italy) have always had a better scrum half....Wales about 10 if them.

The days Youngs retires from Int rugby will be a good day indeed.

I agree, I think Randall is a good player and will be up against the other two.

I suppose my phrasing was a little clumsy. What I meant was that Randall and Mitchell have got a window of opportunity to stake a claim for the spot before the other two come of age. This will however be as backup to Youngs (whatever you believe about Youngs, Eddie will pick him). Whichever of the two fails to make an impression in this period, risks slipping into obscurity in my opinion. For my money, this will be Mitchell.

I agree, i think Youngs will be the experienced one and Randall will be the back up and sub...and Jones will see how he goes with a full England VX selected.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

It's hard to play attacking rugby when your scrum half can't pass. I think a lot of our issues stem from Youngs awful service (80% of the time), it puts the 10 on the back foot straight away.

Yep a scrum half that can't pass has more than 100 caps across several England coaches and has been selected for the last three Lions Tours (opting out of two of them). That's before we consider the 14 year club career in the Prem. Still only 31 so looks likely to overtake the Funbus and be England's most capped (male) player.

Tigers fan by any chance?

Haha....good guess! To be fair, Sam wears the green tainted specs for all Tigers players, not just Youngs.

That Youngs has 100 caps is utterly criminal. it's been a huge problem position for 10 years or so now and that we've developed nobody better is a failing of the English system. Personally, Care is better and has always been, but he's not yes man like Youngs...hence why he hasn't quite managed to get rid of him.

Telling for me is that Youngs has always been in the bottom few of all the NH Int sides starting 9's. All the other nations (bar Italy) have always had a better scrum half....Wales about 10 if them.

The days Youngs retires from Int rugby will be a good day indeed.

Normally viewed with at least one and a half eyes...

Youngs is continually slandered before and after any game by the same people irrelevant of how he actually plays. You can go back and look on the club pages from a couple of years ago when I was more than happy to point out Youngs inability to earn his keep at Tigers. This 6N against Wales we were told repeatedly that all three Welsh options would be better than our starter, didn't actually work out like that did it.

On current form Youngs isn't off the pace he's in the Murray category at the minute for me, solid and reliable. Price has been a stand out this year and Dupont is currently the best in the world (per Aaron Smith). 

Can't say I agree 9 has been a problem position. We've always had options it's just Ben is generally the one most willing and able to adapt to whatever the game plan wants. I hope he gets a more attacking role this season because a) I think he can still flourish doing that and b) because Randall will also flourish in a more attacking side.

Randall does need to make a statement quickly because young JVP will be an international sooner or later. You can certainly see how Youngs has helped mentor him. Just needs some more experience and to tighten up his box kicking technique (he's a charge down threat at times).

Quirke will surely get the jump on vP given their current positions in their squads.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes...

7.5 is correct there shouldnt be a strict focus on the world cup...you should just replace a player here and there as other better players come through...always trying to be the best and win every tournament you enter...

i just think this current group...theres more than one position or player that needs moved on.

I agree at the moment hence I'd like to see those 4 changes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quirke will surely get the jump on vP given their current positions in their squads.

Quirke should get a nice run of games whilst de Klerk is away with SA. Faff will then take back over in mid November. Faff has sat out the AIs before now to concentrate on his club form though. It was very odd that Quirke didn't play for the under 20s this summer, one bench spot and he didn't get on. I hope he's not injured he looks a real talent.

JVP should be Benny's understudy this season and get some good game time during the AIs and 6N. He was rotated well last season and from memory played more games than Quirke. Wigglesworth should become increasingly the third choice option and given he's also doing some coaching that fits nicely with the set up we have. Borthwick likes using his subs early so it's not unusual for the replacement scrum half to play at least 30 minutes. Not unusual for him to start his second choice 9 and then deploy the first choice in the second half with Tigers turning up the heat as the opposition tire.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

It's hard to play attacking rugby when your scrum half can't pass. I think a lot of our issues stem from Youngs awful service (80% of the time), it puts the 10 on the back foot straight away.

Yep a scrum half that can't pass has more than 100 caps across several England coaches and has been selected for the last three Lions Tours (opting out of two of them). That's before we consider the 14 year club career in the Prem. Still only 31 so looks likely to overtake the Funbus and be England's most capped (male) player.

Tigers fan by any chance?

Haha....good guess! To be fair, Sam wears the green tainted specs for all Tigers players, not just Youngs.

That Youngs has 100 caps is utterly criminal. it's been a huge problem position for 10 years or so now and that we've developed nobody better is a failing of the English system. Personally, Care is better and has always been, but he's not yes man like Youngs...hence why he hasn't quite managed to get rid of him.

Telling for me is that Youngs has always been in the bottom few of all the NH Int sides starting 9's. All the other nations (bar Italy) have always had a better scrum half....Wales about 10 if them.

The days Youngs retires from Int rugby will be a good day indeed.

Normally viewed with at least one and a half eyes...

Youngs is continually slandered before and after any game by the same people irrelevant of how he actually plays. You can go back and look on the club pages from a couple of years ago when I was more than happy to point out Youngs inability to earn his keep at Tigers. This 6N against Wales we were told repeatedly that all three Welsh options would be better than our starter, didn't actually work out like that did it.

On current form Youngs isn't off the pace he's in the Murray category at the minute for me, solid and reliable. Price has been a stand out this year and Dupont is currently the best in the world (per Aaron Smith). 

Can't say I agree 9 has been a problem position. We've always had options it's just Ben is generally the one most willing and able to adapt to whatever the game plan wants. I hope he gets a more attacking role this season because a) I think he can still flourish doing that and b) because Randall will also flourish in a more attacking side.

Randall does need to make a statement quickly because young JVP will be an international sooner or later. You can certainly see how Youngs has helped mentor him. Just needs some more experience and to tighten up his box kicking technique (he's a charge down threat at times).

Hopefully Youngs isn't giving him tips on how to pass.....maybe Bergamasco will be a better tutor

There's nothing wrong with a bit of club bias, you just don't see it much from us Falcons as we don't have many players on that stage to be biased about. I must admit though, I do find Tigers fans the most defensive (not just on here), I always suspect it's because they were the best club around for such a long time and recently one of the worst. It must be hard to watch a side fall so hard, it's much easier to dwell near the bottom and see top 6 as major achievement!

Better to live 100 years as a lamb, than 1 day as a Lion....or is it the other way around.

Youngs has had the knack of folllowing up a run of bad games with a reminder of how good he can be. For some reason, Youngs has frequently played well against the Wallabies.

Before the 2016 tour to Australia, the Green and Gold Podcast named Youngs as one of the players they most feared. This seemed odd, because he hadn't been a stand-out during the Grand Slam Six Nations. Sure enough, he had a very good tour, with some quick penalties, and snipes from the back of the ruck.

In the mid-cycle World Cup lull which followed, neither he nor Care did well when they started. Both looked better coming off the bench. While many of the changes Jones made around this time paid off, arguably dropping Care didn't, not least because Youngs didn't have the same pressure for his place. Heinz played the gameplan better than expected but he wasn't seriously challenging to start.

Youngs did exactly what England needed against New Zealand, and then had one of his worst ever international games in the World Cup Final. He was mediocre during the Autumn Nations Cup, then showed some improvement during the last, disappointing, Six Nations.

Of all Jones' selections, scrum half has been most baffling. Having talked up the value of finishers, you'd think once he dropped Care that he'd spend time developing another option but he never did. Heinz was never going to be a long term option.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll approach this backwards, I like Youngs when he properly mixes his game up with a strong point in favour of his breaks and good kicking. He had a couple of nice ones in the 6Ns. I've now completed what I like about his form for perhaps the last 2 years or more. His kicking in the last year has been off in quality ie mostly too long, it's the default option (probably more Jones' decision). He's slow getting to breakdowns (you're going to mention the squidge video so lets set my thoughts straight away there), he's stodgy the ball 85% of the time is going to the nearest forward, breaks are going to be few and far between and so on average he's going to get there quicker than others (whose teams can play more expansively). When he gets to the breakdown as previous it's going to be throw the ball to the nearest forward, if there is a decision to be made it's going to take an age for him to decide. When he's decided he's still going to take the obligatory 2 steps (ok when he's making consistent breaks a killer when he's not), and then throw a wobbly slow pass taking time from the fly half.

I'll throw in he's ok in getting the forwards round him to protect box kicks.

We've got waiting in the wings a selection of players who can play at pace with an offloading game and running ambition; Youngs is as far away from this game as we have in our choices at SH.I think given the rules trials this is the way WR are pushing for the game to go lets get ahead of the curve. My hope is tat van Poortvliet quickly usurps him this year and takes the legs away from Youngs even being considered for England.

Benny can play whichever way you want. Eddie wants to play the quick ruck ball to the forward runner one out. That's the game plan. Goes back to the attacking structure being the issue not that man doing what he's told. The current England side is not set up to play expansively with tempo. It's one thing being able to throw an offload it's another there being somebody to catch it.

It's hard to play attacking rugby when your scrum half can't pass. I think a lot of our issues stem from Youngs awful service (80% of the time), it puts the 10 on the back foot straight away.

Yep a scrum half that can't pass has more than 100 caps across several England coaches and has been selected for the last three Lions Tours (opting out of two of them). That's before we consider the 14 year club career in the Prem. Still only 31 so looks likely to overtake the Funbus and be England's most capped (male) player.

Tigers fan by any chance?

Haha....good guess! To be fair, Sam wears the green tainted specs for all Tigers players, not just Youngs.

That Youngs has 100 caps is utterly criminal. it's been a huge problem position for 10 years or so now and that we've developed nobody better is a failing of the English system. Personally, Care is better and has always been, but he's not yes man like Youngs...hence why he hasn't quite managed to get rid of him.

Telling for me is that Youngs has always been in the bottom few of all the NH Int sides starting 9's. All the other nations (bar Italy) have always had a better scrum half....Wales about 10 if them.

The days Youngs retires from Int rugby will be a good day indeed.

Normally viewed with at least one and a half eyes...

Youngs is continually slandered before and after any game by the same people irrelevant of how he actually plays. You can go back and look on the club pages from a couple of years ago when I was more than happy to point out Youngs inability to earn his keep at Tigers. This 6N against Wales we were told repeatedly that all three Welsh options would be better than our starter, didn't actually work out like that did it.

On current form Youngs isn't off the pace he's in the Murray category at the minute for me, solid and reliable. Price has been a stand out this year and Dupont is currently the best in the world (per Aaron Smith). 

Can't say I agree 9 has been a problem position. We've always had options it's just Ben is generally the one most willing and able to adapt to whatever the game plan wants. I hope he gets a more attacking role this season because a) I think he can still flourish doing that and b) because Randall will also flourish in a more attacking side.

Randall does need to make a statement quickly because young JVP will be an international sooner or later. You can certainly see how Youngs has helped mentor him. Just needs some more experience and to tighten up his box kicking technique (he's a charge down threat at times).

Hopefully Youngs isn't giving him tips on how to pass.....maybe Bergamasco will be a better tutor

There's nothing wrong with a bit of club bias, you just don't see it much from us Falcons as we don't have many players on that stage to be biased about. I must admit though, I do find Tigers fans the most defensive (not just on here), I always suspect it's because they were the best club around for such a long time and recently one of the worst. It must be hard to watch a side fall so hard, it's much easier to dwell near the bottom and see top 6 as major achievement!

Better to live 100 years as a lamb, than 1 day as a Lion....or is it the other way around.

As I've also supported Leicester City for 30 years I'm more than used to coming round to expecting my team to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Kids in Leicester following football these days don't know their born.

The supporters on the offy do very much have the belief we should win every game irrelevant of the realities. Win it in style as well. As you say we all have greater levels of optimism when it comes to our own team, it's often the hope that kills you.

I do tend towards the more conservative approach when it comes to rugby so I'm unlikely to ever get behind tearing the team to bits and rebuilding around kids. Even with the back three where it would probably benefit a Tigers player if we did so.

You don't win anything with kids. Apparently.

Rugby Fan wrote:Youngs has had the knack of folllowing up a run of bad games with a reminder of how good he can be. For some reason, Youngs has frequently played well against the Wallabies.

Before the 2016 tour to Australia, the Green and Gold Podcast named Youngs as one of the players they most feared. This seemed odd, because he hadn't been a stand-out during the Grand Slam Six Nations. Sure enough, he had a very good tour, with some quick penalties, and snipes from the back of the ruck.

In the mid-cycle World Cup lull which followed, neither he nor Care did well when they started. Both looked better coming off the bench. While many of the changes Jones made around this time paid off, arguably dropping Care didn't, not least because Youngs didn't have the same pressure for his place. Heinz played the gameplan better than expected but he wasn't seriously challenging to start.

Youngs did exactly what England needed against New Zealand, and then had one of his worst ever international games in the World Cup Final. He was mediocre during the Autumn Nations Cup, then showed some improvement during the last, disappointing, Six Nations.

Of all Jones' selections, scrum half has been most baffling. Having talked up the value of finishers, you'd think once he dropped Care that he'd spend time developing another option but he never did. Heinz was never going to be a long term option.

Good post RF. I agree that Youngs was excellent during that series and much of the weaker aspects of his game were brushed to one side (poor passing, speed of distribution etc) because he was such a threat around the fringes. It's such a shame that we rarely see this side of him these days.

Interesting article in Rugby Pass
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/smith-is-the-english-russell-farrell-must-make-way-says-former-england-10-stuart-barnes/?fbclid=IwAR2ZR48QV1h1N7dMJ7ZiOUOgj_rNUXDppxgANDGdcHDKHA0XmMbz8XrHfIU

Easier for Barnes to regurgitate the old heads up vs by the play book story (always going back to him vs Andrew) than dig a little deeper in that realistically it's Ford vs Smith.

rosbif wrote:Interesting article in Rugby Pass
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/smith-is-the-english-russell-farrell-must-make-way-says-former-england-10-stuart-barnes/?fbclid=IwAR2ZR48QV1h1N7dMJ7ZiOUOgj_rNUXDppxgANDGdcHDKHA0XmMbz8XrHfIU

Interesting up to the point where it goes 'says-former-england-10-stuart-barnes

I do however agree that Farrell needs to take a step back if we want to get the most out of Smith. Would be great if we had a good 12 banging on the door but we have done that one to death over the last few months.

We are having this discussion on the thread because England were awful in the 6N's and performing badly going into the competition.  A lot of this was not the fault of the players but poor performance does bring selection into question.  In any case teams which cannot evolve seem to eventually to be overtaken.

So if things were wonderful there would be much less discussion.  Regardless of the hype - Smith seems a talent and it would be wise to see whether he can make the grade before the World Cup.  Likewise there are other players knocking on the door.

The number 8 position is an issue and there is no proven option to Youngs - so many issues to address.  Hope we do see a more adventurous selection for the Autumn matches.

cb wrote:We are having this discussion on the thread because England were awful in the 6N's and performing badly going into the competition.  A lot of this was not the fault of the players but poor performance does bring selection into question.  In any case teams which cannot evolve seem to eventually to be overtaken.

So if things were wonderful there would be much less discussion.  Regardless of the hype - Smith seems a talent and it would be wise to see whether he can make the grade before the World Cup.  Likewise there are other players knocking on the door.

The number 8 position is an issue and there is no proven option to Youngs - so many issues to address.  Hope we do see a more adventurous selection for the Autumn matches.

I agree and I know I sound like a broken record on the subject (and apologies for that), but if not now, when?  I think there is no perfect time to blood new talent, but somehow each player got his first cap.  So let's bring some more through and actually give them a real opportunity to shine.  Some will succeed and some won't.

I keep coming back to the post 6Ns review with the RFU. I just can't imagine everyone sitting around saying well we're on the right track here, entertaining tactics, executed well blah blah blah. We know the impacts that were on that tournament but I can see a lot of talk being about what is next and who is coming through and how best to get the best out of them. After such a boring set of games there will have been people there keen to here about some optimism especially when there are guys like Lam and Robertson who could turn some heads.

I agree if we're going to mix up the EPS squad I has to be this Autumn. We've had the opportunity to look at some of the players in the summer and now is the chance to take the ones that worked out and see if they can step up and create competition. Not revolution but certainly some evolution.

A 34 man EPS of something like;

1. Mako, Genge, Obano*
2. George, LCD, Blamire
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
Lock. Itoje, Lawes, Ribbans, Hill
Flanker. Curry, Underhill, Earl, Kenningham
8. Vunipola, Dombrandt
9. Youngs, Randall, Mitchell
10. Ford, Smith 
Centre. Farrell, Marchant, Manu**, Lawrence
Wing. May, Radwan, Watson, Cockasiga 
Fullback. Nowell, Malins

* If Marler decides he wants to commit then he comes in for Obano.
** When Manu's inevitable injury comes about replace with whichever fit and in form centre is about, probably Piers O'Conor.

Form and fitness permitting. Should the likes of Martin and Barbeary go back to pulling up trees again then I'd seriously consider bringing them in at the expense of others. Isiekwe is another that I'd be interested to see how he gets on back at Sarries.

cb wrote:We are having this discussion on the thread because England were awful in the 6N's and performing badly going into the competition.  A lot of this was not the fault of the players but poor performance does bring selection into question.  In any case teams which cannot evolve seem to eventually to be overtaken.

So if things were wonderful there would be much less discussion.  Regardless of the hype - Smith seems a talent and it would be wise to see whether he can make the grade before the World Cup.  Likewise there are other players knocking on the door.

The number 8 position is an issue and there is no proven option to Youngs - so many issues to address.  Hope we do see a more adventurous selection for the Autumn matches.

Dont see the Number 8 as an issue. Dombrandt looks ready...a big unit who can crash ball, who can run intelligent lines and off load...and is a lineout option....its what fans have been calling for, for years....

Also Tom Willis is coming on marvelous. Hes a big aggressive unit like his brother...

i wonder if Jones will decide to "rest" Farrell for the AI's...give him some time off to just play well for Saracens without the stress of international Captaincy, and see if he can find his mojo again.

Im not a fan of Farrell....but even his die hard fans must admit he looks a shadow of his best form.

GeordieFalcon wrote:i wonder if Jones will decide to "rest" Farrell for the AI's...give him some time off to just play well for Saracens without the stress of international Captaincy, and see if he can find his mojo again.

Im not a fan of Farrell....but even his die hard fans must admit he looks a shadow of his best form.

I guess it'll depend on how he looks after he comes back from his rest period for Sarries. Though if he comes back still looking like a shadow of his former self the media may paint any rest idea up as being dropped but with a bit of fluffing first. Given some pundits have called for Farrell to be dropped it almost paints Eddie into the corner of needing to give Farrell the dreaded vote of confidence by calling him up. I can't see him coming in for the Tonga game.

It goes back to the problem of no stand out English 12 again though. It's unlikely whomever comes in for him is going to set the world alight. Manu, Slade and Lawrence are better at 13, though Manu is playing 12 at Sale now he's also nearly always broken. Devoto is a good 12 but not a great one. The youngsters Ojomoh and Kelly are still too raw for international rugby. Makes the one that got away look even worse...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:i wonder if Jones will decide to "rest" Farrell for the AI's...give him some time off to just play well for Saracens without the stress of international Captaincy, and see if he can find his mojo again.

Im not a fan of Farrell....but even his die hard fans must admit he looks a shadow of his best form.

I guess it'll depend on how he looks after he comes back from his rest period for Sarries. Though if he comes back still looking like a shadow of his former self the media may paint any rest idea up as being dropped but with a bit of fluffing first. Given some pundits have called for Farrell to be dropped it almost paints Eddie into the corner of needing to give Farrell the dreaded vote of confidence by calling him up. I can't see him coming in for the Tonga game.

It goes back to the problem of no stand out English 12 again though. It's unlikely whomever comes in for him is going to set the world alight. Manu, Slade and Lawrence are better at 13, though Manu is playing 12 at Sale now he's also nearly always broken. Devoto is a good 12 but not a great one. The youngsters Ojomoh and Kelly are still too raw for international rugby. Makes the one that got away look even worse...

Devoto is 27 so now or never. 2 caps 5 years ago doesn't make for much optimism. O'Conor may be the next cab off the rank, but it is always hard to tell how much Jones rates any of them.

The one that got away being Redpath? His stock certainly skyrocketed after 1 game and then a long term injury.

Personally I'm all for Farrell to be 12 outside of Smith. Balance needed at 13 if thats the case though, Marchant or Lawrence would offer something different.

The 12 doesnt have to be great...he needs to do his role effectively to allow the team to progress.

Brad Barritt wasnt a highlights player at 12...but by god he was effective, in the role he played for Saracens.

Ironically despite my dislike of Farrell...i will commend him and say he has actually done that diligently for England, and probably missed having Manu or another explosive offensive player alongside him.

The problem is...not having the explosive player...AND his total loss of form have resulted in negative views of him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The one that got away being Redpath? His stock certainly skyrocketed after 1 game and then a long term injury.

Personally I'm all for Farrell to be 12 outside of Ford  . Balance needed at 13 if thats the case though, Marchant or Lawrence would offer something different.

To be fair his displays in the Prem were very good pre injury. I'm not certain he's the finished article yet but at 21 there's still some time there to become a very good player indeed.

I agree with Geordie, Farrell has been the sticking plaster for the midfield. Limited highlights reel but a dependable job. Even with his nose dive in form we are still scratching around trying to find someone better and struggling to even find a reasonable alternative. Devoto is the closest I think we'll get. Not sure that either Farrell or Devoto are likely to help with the backline balance issue.

Re the backline balance I'm increasingly coming round to the idea that one of the back three needs to be sacrificed for a more direct carrying threat as well. Doesn't have to be the size of Cockasiga it could be Nowell from 15 as his low centre of gravity allows him to attack the line more than just go for the outside arc. Something in the back 3 and a more dynamic threat at 13 should give our halfbacks more of a backline to play with.

And that's the difference between Ford and Farrell's relative positions. If we had a stand out performer at inside centre I'd be saying let's give him a chance (caveats being I do like a distributing inside centre and that balance at 13 yadda yadda yadda), but we don't. Ford however is under pressure not because of anything he's done wrong but simply because there is an outstanding competitor coming for his shirt.

I agree on the back 3 to an extent. I think it's imperative that we make a change at full back and for me that's either move Watson back there and bring in Radwan and Cokanasiga to the bench or bring in Steward and have Radwan on the bench.

We have missed Nowell, he does lack the out and out pace normally associated with top wingers but he does offer what very few do. He's obviously had some very eye catching performances at full back but rarely gets a chance there for Exeter and kinda hoping he doesn't get too many this year as I want to see Hodge breaking through.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Ford however is under pressure not because of anything he's done wrong but simply because there is an outstanding competitor coming for his shirt.

Smith is undoubtedly going to take the 10 shirt...he's fantastic....but i dont think we've seen the best of ford recently in an England shirt and thats a shame...and i believe its because hes been stifled by the team around him and attacking play /tactics.

Would Smith perform any better in those circumstances? Im not so sure. We shall see. i just hope if he is unable to do that, the knives dont come out like they have for Ford.

Although, i suspect Gleeson and Cockers may improve things in there.

I think Smith has more strings to his bow than Ford and his strengths more pronounced. Why you'd want to limit those by a 1 dimensional game plan would be the question. I think in general Ford is very rarely criticised, most pundits like him. Perhaps the only thing I've ever seen levelled at him a lot is size which can cause the opposition to run down his channel a lot. Don't think I've ever seen it cost us too much. Perhaps in the past his kicking wasn't quite up to top level international standard and lacked a bit of length.

You're right though with new coaches especially in attack there will be new things to learn, may offer more of an opportunity for Smith to be the guy taht takes those forward.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote: Ford however is under pressure not because of anything he's done wrong but simply because there is an outstanding competitor coming for his shirt.

Smith is undoubtedly going to take the 10 shirt...he's fantastic....but i dont think we've seen the best of ford recently in an England shirt and thats a shame...and i believe its because hes been stifled by the team around him and attacking play /tactics.

Would Smith perform any better in those circumstances? Im not so sure. We shall see. i just hope if he is unable to do that, the knives dont come out like they have for Ford.

Although, i suspect Gleeson and Cockers may improve things in there.

Its difficult because it has been such a stupid year all around. England in particular did seem to suffer trying to train and play around Covid. Ford also had that injury, which makes his current form hard to assess.

The Premiership being determined (rightly in my opinion) to finish the 2019/20 season also worked against England to be fair. Restarting the 19/20 season with midweek fixtures meant a very congested schedule and heavy workload but that was a fair while before any international rugby. We then had the very brief 'preseason break' leading up to the Autumn Nations Cup which meant most of England's players actually had a break just before the ANC. Then they came back from the ANC, played about one game for their clubs, then had to jump back into the Six Nations bubble.

A poster on the Tigers offy looked at club appearances in 2020/21 for England and Wales players before their Six Nations game and I think Adam Beard had made more club apps than the England pack put together.

A lot was made of selecting Sarries players without club game time but none of the England players had club game time due to the combination of bubbles and Premiership restart dates, then Prem matches being cancelled due to covid outbreaks.

I was a big advocate of Lawrence getting picked for instance during the Six Nations but he'd had practically as little game time as guys such as Mako and Faz.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Smith has more strings to his bow than Ford and his strengths more pronounced. Why you'd want to limit those by a 1 dimensional game plan would be the question. .

Aside from his running game which is considerably better, i dont believe the rest of his game is much better than Fords. But he is young and you would expect him to surpass him.

i would hope that be it Ford or Smith at 10...neither have to put up with the one dimensional rugby that Ford has had to put up with for some time now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think Smith has more strings to his bow than Ford and his strengths more pronounced. Why you'd want to limit those by a 1 dimensional game plan would be the question. .

Aside from his running game which is considerably better, i dont believe the rest of his game is much better than Fords. But he is young and you would expect him to surpass him.

i would hope that be it Ford or Smith at 10...neither have to put up with the one dimensional rugby that Ford has had to put up with for some time now.

When Smith first started playing first team rugby, I thought he was very similar to Ford at the same age, with a less mature kicking game but a better passing game. I think now they are very similar in the basics, but Smith has the edge in running game and I'd say three additional areas of strength:

- The most important is his ability to react to an unfolding situation on the fly. Ford is very accomplished at manipulating defences to create space, but I haven't seen him change his option mid-play and make it stick the way Smith was routinely doing at the end of the season. To some extent that's a question of whether that system gives you the freedom to do it, but I don't know a player who's better at, say, spotting a rush on the 13 channel and switching to a kick pass.

- It's not just the running game, but the way Smith uses it. To him it seems to be just another tool to trick the defence. Lynagh's try in the Prem Final was a classic example. Bad pass, nothing on, try the little Scrappy Doo legs wheeling in the air thing and suddenly the Exeter defence is static - and he has the presence of mind to pass it out to Lynagh, who has more space and better acceleration to take advantage of the lull.

- There's also an intangible quality - which may or may not make the step up to international level - of having the belief to always be able to create something. So many games in Quins' run in were won (or drawn) at the death with a play that started, or ended, or both with Smith doing something to create a hole that should never have been there. If he can learn to do that to a proper international class defence, he will be something special - and I think he has a good chance to because even an international defence will struggle to cover a player who has that many options for what to do in any situation.