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GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12.

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power!

I don't necessarily see May getting dropped, but as I have stated before, he plays well when he has confidence, and it really shows when he doesn't have that confidence. Being outsprinted by LRZ (who had a head start) for the Welsh try in the 6N would have been hard for him as a fast winger.

May's a complicated character as well (probably best described as "eccentric") so he has to be in a good headspace to be selected. Let's see how he goes in the early season and go from there. If he finds the form he showed against France in 2019 he'd be difficult to leave out. He doesn't HAVE to play against Tonga, and there are plenty of decent back 3 players who can take over for that game. I'd expect to see 11. Radwan, 14. Cokanasiga and 15. Malins if all are fit. Eddie likes his big units, and with Manu almost always on the treatment table he will use Big Joe. If Joe finds the form he had in the World Cup warm ups he'll be a useful player to have either on the bench or starting.

No 7&1/2 wrote:May for me is still our best winger by some distance. Don't see a weakness in his game, still the one who is most likely to do something individually brilliant, best in the air, quickest (of the established guys), got sod all decent ball for the last 18 months. He's in sight of the tries record which makes me think that he's not likely to make the decision to step aside himself. At 31 he's getting on for an international winger but that's normally driven by a loss of pace which doesn't as yet seem to be happening. I'd be dropping Watson before I'd drop May but personally would be keeping both and looking to bring in 1 of Steward or Radwan.

Hassell-Collins form will be one to watch for me though he was ignored over the summer and I really didn't get that logic.

I rate May highly and agree he's still got the spot. He has 100% lost some pace though which was seen a number times with him getting beaten in the Prem. The question is, can he tune his game slightly so the loss of pace isn't having a huge impact?

Mr Bounce wrote:I don't necessarily see May getting dropped, but as I have stated before, he plays well when he has confidence, and it really shows when he doesn't have that confidence. Being outsprinted by LRZ (who had a head start) for the Welsh try in the 6N would have been hard for him as a fast winger.

May's a complicated character as well (probably best described as "eccentric") so he has to be in a good headspace to be selected. Let's see how he goes in the early season and go from there. If he finds the form he showed against France in 2019 he'd be difficult to leave out. He doesn't HAVE to play against Tonga, and there are plenty of decent back 3 players who can take over for that game. I'd expect to see 11. Radwan, 14. Cokanasiga and 15. Malins if all are fit. Eddie likes his big units, and with Manu almost always on the treatment table he will use Big Joe. If Joe finds the form he had in the World Cup warm ups he'll be a useful player to have either on the bench or starting.

He got turned inside out by Radwan v Newcastle aswell Sgt....

I ain't seen the loss of pace. Remember this is the guy who got out paced by a scrum half once.

Keep forgetting about Malins as well. I've discounted him a bit from a side i'd like to see as I see him as a fly half who seems to be moved to full back and now wing as the sides he's in are offered overall better balance from him there than at 10. I'm seeing him more as a bench option.

Yeah i want to see Steward as the long term Full back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I ain't seen the loss of pace. Remember this is the guy who got out paced by a scrum half once.

If you are thinking of the Fijian he got stepped but its well worth noting who tackled him before he got to the tryline. May ran him down.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I ain't seen the loss of pace. Remember this is the guy who got out paced by a scrum half once.

If you are thinking of the Fijian he got stepped but its well worth noting who tackled him before he got to the tryline. May ran him down.

Just a call back to beshocked!

I do have a wider point on making judgements (which we all do) on a small part of a game though. Radwan turned May inside out, Rees-Zammit ran past him. They'll both get done themselves pace wise defending of course but examples are less well remembered or pushed to the side. Prominent moments can push a narrative so that it can become cemented into peoples views.

BTW someone who could make a huge impact but we're waiting to push on is Hodge. Needs game time, but looks special.

It will be interesting to see How Hodge comes through...

No issue with any player being outpaced by Cobus Reinach, but not many others should be getting close

GeordieFalcon wrote:It will be interesting to see How Hodge comes through...

He looked like a very talented school boy last season. The step and ability to glide past defenders like they weren't there is something you just can't teach. His tendency to knock on in contact was slightly bemusing. He should naturally fill out at the age he is so that should help and some time to adjust to the intensity of senior rugby might be required. If he kicks in at Exeter then there will be some competition in their back three with Hogg and Nowell also in contention at 15.

Hes 21 Sam...now i know thats young, but in contrast, Freddie Steward is racking up appearances for the Tigers.

Incredibly talented lad, but he needs to really start nailing in some good performances. I wonder if he will live to regret leaving us so quickly...?

Steward and Hodge are chalk and cheese in terms of their physical development though.

I do recall Hodge making a great break last season and handing off LRZ so he has strength about him.

Someones just mentioned another lost Chief...Aaron Hinkley.
Wonder what the crack with him is.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hes 21 Sam...now i know thats young, but in contrast, Freddie Steward is racking up appearances for the Tigers.

Incredibly talented lad, but he needs to really start nailing in some good performances. I wonder if he will live to regret leaving us so quickly...?

Freddie Steward is built like a tank though. There's a few locks coming through of similar size at 19 when he broke through. Steward's game also revolves around some traditional fullback skills that normally take time to develop so him fitting in makes sense. The questions he'll have to answer going forward are all around his ability to spark the attack from deep or act as a link man/running threat in the backline. We saw more of those things as the season went on but they'll need to develop further to compete with the likes of Malins who is explosive in attack.

Hodge can get there. Not unusual for players to sometimes develop a little later but he needs to make more appearances this season because it's match experience he needs. Cuthbert and Baldwin have both left Chiefs so there should be more opportunities out on the wing this season.

Is Hodge any different to Rees Zammitt. Hes hardly a tank , 20 year old and now a Lion...?

Door was opened with some injuries from memory. Think he played across all the back 3 positions as various people missed out. Hodge may have that opportunity with Lions rest and the AIs and needs to make himself undroppable. He does things in attack which aren't coachable, eliminate the small errors and it could make a another few years of good debate of who should play!

LRZ is good but he's been riding the hype train hard

GeordieFalcon wrote:Someones just mentioned another lost Chief...Aaron Hinkley.
Wonder what the crack with him is.

I thought Hinkley had a setback with his return from that horrible knee injury he got in 2020. He looked a massive talent at U20. If he stays fit in the Exeter system getting coached by Rob Hunter and Julian Salvi then he could become some player.

lostinwales wrote:LRZ is good but he's been riding the hype train hard

Agreed. The Welsh media very much like the young speedster, fastest player in rugby all that type of headline. He's a good young winger but I think his lack of game time in the Lions tests probably showed that his all round game might not be there yet. Given his age that isn't surprising. I did wonder whether Gatland regretted not taking May, particularly given the kick chase tactics and May being rather good at using his pace to make a menace of himself to the catcher, May also being surprisingly reliable under the high ball himself (must have been Murphy's influence).

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Someones just mentioned another lost Chief...Aaron Hinkley.
Wonder what the crack with him is.

I thought Hinkley had a setback with his return from that horrible knee injury he got in 2020. He looked a massive talent at U20. If he stays fit in the Exeter system getting coached by Rob Hunter and Julian Salvi then he could become some player.

Yes your right, i knew about his nasty injury, but apparently he had a set back. Another that will be interesting to see how he comes back.

from england site:

Cockerill joins as a forwards coach and will work alongside Matt Proudfoot. He had a distinguished playing career, winning 27 caps for England and making more than 250 appearances for Leicester Tigers, along with spells at Coventry and Montferrand.

He became Leicester head coach in 2009 and won the Premiership title on three occasions (2009, 2010 and 2013). Cockerill has also spent time as a rugby consultant at Toulon and spent four years as head coach at Edinburgh Rugby.

"We’re two years from the World Cup so we wanted to freshen up our coaching team and get the right people in place for where we want to go – which is to win the World Cup," said England head coach, Jones.

"We’ve added Richard to the team to work with Matt to create a dominant forward pack. He’s a former England player, has great coaching experience and comes in as a well-rounded, mature, driven English coach."

Seibold has been appointed as England defence coach. He arrives from his most recent role as head coach of the Brisbane Broncos in Australia’s National Rugby League. He was head coach at South Sydney Rabbitohs, and has also coached at a number of clubs including: Manly Sea Eagles, Melbourne Storm and worked as an assistant for Queensland in the State of Origin series.

Seibold’s playing career included spells in England with Hull KR and London Broncos, along with Canberra Raiders and Brisbane Broncos in NRL. He is currently a coaching mentor at Newcastle Knights.

"Anthony is a coach that I have had a relationship with since 2019 and have followed his career closely. He is a good coach and thinks deeply about the game," added Jones. "John Mitchell did a great job improving us in defence and Anthony will add further nuances to the good system that he has put into place.

"It’s an exciting time for rugby with the new season starting, supporters back in the stadium and the return of the grassroots game this weekend – with the rugby community celebrating being back together at Pitch Up for Rugby events around the country. We’re looking forward to getting the squad back together and growing this England team."

The coaching team will first work with the England squad at a mini-camp at The Lensbury next month from 26-28 September.

REACTION
"I am excited to be joining Eddie Jones and the England team, working with the players and staff," said Cockerill. "I look forward to being part of and contributing to the world class environment that is England Rugby."

Seibold added: "I am very much looking forward to joining the England coaching staff and building upon the work that has been done by the coaching staff and players over recent seasons.

"Eddie is one of the leading coaches in world sport and the opportunity to work under him through to the 2023 World Cup in France along with the other staff was an opportunity that I could not pass up.

"The depth of talent and the opportunity to work with the elite players in the English game is something that really excites me going forward. I am looking forward to the opportunity and the challenge that international rugby presents."

So a league guy on defense. Has he got any experience in Union?

Daddy hobbit still involved after the rumors he might be leaving. Be interesting to see how him and Cockers work together.

Well hopefully they all work together well and we get the right mix on the pitch...and win the feckin thing.

This is the one I really felt we would win, bit it may have been dealt a blow with Covid...

I can't bare more pommie bashing if we come up short again.

Ps what do you think of the coaching team as a whole

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ps what do you think of the coaching team as a whole

a) it's an interesting mix and it's got potential
b) I am relieved he hasn't nicked Nick Evans

Poorfour wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ps what do you think of the coaching team as a whole

a) it's an interesting mix and it's got potential
b) I am relieved he hasn't nicked Nick Evans

Can't see Eddie wanting an attack coach that goes for the Quins tamed havoc attacking style. Really not what Eddie likes. He's previously wanted Vesty from Saints so he does want to add something to the attack. He's also said it's hard to get coaches away from the clubs because they don't release them and the RFU won't pay for the release from their contract.

Siebold ‘s recent cv is fairly underwhelming.
From wiki
‘Brisbane started the 2020 NRL season with two wins in a row against North Queensland and Seibold's former team, South Sydney. Brisbane maintained 5th position during the two rounds of the season before its suspension due to the outbreak of COVID-19 in Australia. Upon the resumption of the season on May 28, Brisbane were defeated 34-6 by the Parramatta Eels. The following week, Brisbane were again on the wrong end of a big score line, losing to the Sydney Roosters 59-0. This broke the record for the largest defeat in Broncos history. Brisbane went on to lose four more matches in a row, before defeating the Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs 26-8 in Round 9, snapping the Broncos' six game losing streak and giving them their third and final win for the 2020 season. Brisbane lost the next four matches against the Wests Tigers, Melbourne, Cronulla-Sutherland and Souths. Following the Round 13 loss against South Sydney, Seibold took a leave of absence to be with his family in Sydney,[12] with Peter Gentle taking over the coaching duties.
After multiple media outlets reported that Brisbane offered Seibold $1 million to depart the club, both parties agreed to an early termination of Seibold's contract, following Brisbane losing 10 games in the season with Seibold at the helm.[13] Seibold left the club having been the only coach to not have a winning record with a ratio of only 34%. Under Seibold, 2020 was the worst year in Brisbane's history with only 3 wins from 20 matches and a points differential of -356 resulting in the club's first wooden spoon.’

That was as head coach....

Maybe like say Brian Ashton, or Andy Robinson, hes a better hands on coach than a head coach...

He may be a great defensive coach...woeful head Coach.

We shall see...

Yeah, and the support roles in particular can be hard to judge from black and white stats.

Seibold being straight from league interests me. Under Gustard we had a very aggressive blitz that had a higher risk of attacks getting outside us or kicks in behind causing issues but the trade off was a higher chance of stopping the opposition behind the gain line, turnovers and interceptions.

Under Mitchell we moved to more of a hybrid defence where we still blitz very hard close to the ruck but drift more out wide. It increases the chance of the opposition getting the ball wide and making metres down the wings but decreases the chance of clean breaks. Mitchell's system used the fitness of the England pack and their ability to reset very quickly even if the opposition make metres wider out.

Moving back to a league coach suggests to me that England might go back to a slightly more aggressive blitz as their go to defensive system with their senior players experience of Mitchell's hybrid system as something to fallback on if the game opens up, there's a man in the bin, the refs interpretations are hampering the blitz (i.e. a ref is actually enforcing the offside line), etc.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Siebold ‘s recent cv is fairly underwhelming.
From wiki
‘Brisbane started the 2020 NRL season with two wins in a row against North Queensland and Seibold's former team, South Sydney. Brisbane maintained 5th position during the two rounds of the season before its suspension due to the outbreak of COVID-19 in Australia. Upon the resumption of the season on May 28, Brisbane were defeated 34-6 by the Parramatta Eels. The following week, Brisbane were again on the wrong end of a big score line, losing to the Sydney Roosters 59-0. This broke the record for the largest defeat in Broncos history. Brisbane went on to lose four more matches in a row, before defeating the Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs 26-8 in Round 9, snapping the Broncos' six game losing streak and giving them their third and final win for the 2020 season. Brisbane lost the next four matches against the Wests Tigers, Melbourne, Cronulla-Sutherland and Souths. Following the Round 13 loss against South Sydney, Seibold took a leave of absence to be with his family in Sydney,[12] with Peter Gentle taking over the coaching duties.
After multiple media outlets reported that Brisbane offered Seibold $1 million to depart the club, both parties agreed to an early termination of Seibold's contract, following Brisbane losing 10 games in the season with Seibold at the helm.[13] Seibold left the club having been the only coach to not have a winning record with a ratio of only 34%. Under Seibold, 2020 was the worst year in Brisbane's history with only 3 wins from 20 matches and a points differential of -356 resulting in the club's first wooden spoon.’

A league fan informed me that he stepped into a turd storm at the Broncos with some appalling recruitment and retention work which was done above his head. There was also some nasty social media attacks on him personally which is probably why he's option to leave Aus. A quick look online suggests the Broncos have continued to suck after he left.

Could be a mix of things but might not be all his fault.

Slightly late on this but such a shame to see that Barbeary has a hamstring tear. He's had no luck with injury. I was really excited to see if Wasps used him at hooker to start the season given they have bolstered the back row well but are lighter at hooker.

Wasps aren't having much luck with injuries for their potential England players with Willis and Launchbury due out until Christmas time and Odogwu into the New Year.

In different England related news, albeit further down the line, George Kruis mentioned in a recent interview that he's looking at returning to the Premiership for the 2022/23 season after the final year on his contract in Japan. That'd be a massive boost for England in my opinion as Kruis is just a rock solid set-piece lock and fairly ideal foil for Itoje. I'm hoping that Kpoku and Martin can keep developing but if we can actually get all of Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Launchbury fit at the same time heading into the next RWC then they can still offer a fantastic set of second rows with contrasting strengths depending on the game plan.

Agree on both points Carlos. On the second you have to wonder whether those locks will still be at their peak by the next world cup. Kruis has taken a couple of years in Japan to refresh his body which should mean he's got more time at the top left than his age suggests but Lawes and Launchbury will be 34 and 32 with far from ideal injury records. I'm with you I'm very much hoping we're looking at some competition for those guys then deploying those four again because the odds are one of them and I don't know which one might not be at the top by then. If we're really unlucky might be more than one. Failure to develop other options could also leave us desperately short post world cup if they all decode to retire from international duty.

Re: injuries. One thing that was notable with Quins last season was that we kept our injury levels much lower than in previous seasons. A big factor in that was said to be using Protecht mouthguards to track players in real time during training, and tailor the levels of contact to the individual's fitness - I don't know which other clubs are using it but if they weren't, perhaps they should be.

Or not. While I wouldn't wish injuries on any player, if other clubs are happy to leave Quins with a competitive advantage, I'll take it...

Poorfour wrote:Re: injuries. One thing that was notable with Quins last season was that we kept our injury levels much lower than in previous seasons. A big factor in that was said to be using Protecht mouthguards to track players in real time during training, and tailor the levels of contact to the individual's fitness - I don't know which other clubs are using it but if they weren't, perhaps they should be.

Or not. While I wouldn't wish injuries on any player, if other clubs are happy to leave Quins with a competitive advantage, I'll take it...

Quite agree. If the technology is there why wouldn't you use it? It's got to help with the cost of health insurance and rehabilitation of players as well as the on field stuff. Could be a good gimmick when looking to attract players.

Tigers have gone out their way to really build up the links with Loughborough University, I'm hoping that link will benefit us as it's the premier sports uni in the country. With all the Olympians kicking about the place we should be able to get involved with some research and collaborative stuff that could help us along.

Rugby has got to move away from the days of gazing back at the amateur era fondly. It's a professional sport.

king_carlos wrote:Slightly late on this but such a shame to see that Barbeary has a hamstring tear. He's had no luck with injury. I was really excited to see if Wasps used him at hooker to start the season given they have bolstered the back row well but are lighter at hooker.

Wasps aren't having much luck with injuries for their potential England players with Willis and Launchbury due out until Christmas time and Odogwu into the New Year.

In different England related news, albeit further down the line, George Kruis mentioned in a recent interview that he's looking at returning to the Premiership for the 2022/23 season after the final year on his contract in Japan. That'd be a massive boost for England in my opinion as Kruis is just a rock solid set-piece lock and fairly ideal foil for Itoje. I'm hoping that Kpoku and Martin can keep developing but if we can actually get all of Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Launchbury fit at the same time heading into the next RWC then they can still offer a fantastic set of second rows with contrasting strengths depending on the game plan.

Theres quite a few young locks and other locks im really looking to step up for their clubs this season coming.

I want to see if Johnny Hills experience with the Lions can really push him on to another level for England.
Can Isiekwe bring through his potential.
Will Ribbans make a spot his own...?
At Saints also, can Alex Moon really step up. He's 25 now. Only been on the fringe of England a few times. Can he move his game on to the next level to compete for a shirt.
Will the other Kpokus move to Coventry benefit him...and toughen up his game a bit?

I'd love us to produce a 6ft 8/9" 125/130kg monster to play alongside Itoje. We have a great stock of locks but they're all quite samey....6ft 5/6", quite athletic.

There ain't that many people knocking about who are that tall and are actually good though.

Just seen the comments from May on the disappointment of missing out on the Lions, didn't realise he had picked up covid too. Seems he has the drive to prove Gatland an idiot, really looking forward to how the wingers all start.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd love us to produce a 6ft 8/9" 125/130kg monster to play alongside Itoje. We have a great stock of locks but they're all quite samey....6ft 5/6", quite athletic.

Quins are in the process of converting Christian Scotland-Williamson - 6'9" and despite the name EQP - back from NFL. Clearly he will have a bit to do to relearn the skills, but anyone who could last a couple of years even on an NFL training squad must have some decent physical attributes and from commentating on the pre-season games he seems a smart guy.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'd love us to produce a 6ft 8/9" 125/130kg monster to play alongside Itoje. We have a great stock of locks but they're all quite samey....6ft 5/6", quite athletic.

The two Bristol lads are pretty big;

Alex Groves - 6ft8 and nearly 19 stone aged 20.
Ben Bamber - 6ft8 and heading towards 20 stone aged 20.

With Attwood getting on a bit they should get some games this season.

At Tigers, Ollie Chessum looked good in pre season though he's not a bruiser he's still 6ft7 and about 18 and a half stone at 21. Martin we know likes a big tackle and will carry all day and is again between 18 and 19 stone and 6ft6 at 20. I suppose they might be a bit to far on the athletic side for what you want.

Joel Kpoku at Sarries is a big lad and at 22 should start to make his presence felt.

There's good sized locks coming through its just maybe a little early for them. Could be the Saints lads time to shine re Moon, Coles and Ribbans. One of them could muscle their way into the picture.

Yes Sam, Ben Bamber at Bristol looks huge, and hes come from League (Huddersfield i think) so he may have that steely side to him aswell.

If he can work with Attwood whos been fantastic in his later years...it'll be interesting to see how he goes.

I notice Saracens have an academy lad (England & Ireland U18's) , who is 6'10! A lineout specialist, Is he another on their conveyor belt of locks....

Saints have a new arrival, Duane Ratu Willemsen, he is an Aussie but English Qualified, only 6'6" but over 20 stone

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Saints have a new arrival, Duane Ratu Willemsen, he is an Aussie but English Qualified, only 6'6" but over 20 stone

Only 20 as well

formerly known as Sam wrote:

...
The two Bristol lads are pretty big;

Alex Groves - 6ft8 and nearly 19 stone aged 20.
Ben Bamber - 6ft8 and heading towards 20 stone aged 20.

...

Groves one of the most important players for England in the recent U20 6N (In fact I'd only rank JVP as more important) but looks like he needs to fill out more to make an impact at senior level. Definitely one for the future though.

lostinwales wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Saints have a new arrival, Duane Ratu Willemsen, he is an Aussie but English Qualified, only 6'6" but over 20 stone

Only 20 as well

Our ballast in the scrum. I hear he runs like a gazelle in springtime.

Yes it would be nice to see that Second Row pairing of Alex Groves (South Africa) and Willemsen (Australia) playing for England.

We'll be like "Project Player Ireland" soon...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes it would be nice to see that Second Row pairing of Alex Groves (South Africa) and Willemsen (Australia) playing for England.

We'll be like "Project Player Ireland" soon...

They are not project players if they have British passports. The last 'project player' we had was probably Nathan Hughes

Do they have British Passports...and how? British Mother or Fathers? If thats the case then fine...i have no issue.

England have never had a project player ie the union signing players with the aim to cap. The world is a complicated place though there aren't that many people nowadays who don't qualify for more than 1 country.