m

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12.

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power!

I appreciate that 7.5, and accept most of them but you know my feelings on it all...

Yeah and its a thought that is wider than you e.g. Faletau isn't Welsh etc. I just think it's a bit old fashioned. I've criticised past rules on the base of Flutey ie i don't think players should be able to swap allegiance once committed which is more wide spread when players swap codes. Very rare though. After that though any rule doesn't satisfy everyone in every instance. We need to just play to the rules. Cokanasiga playing for England is great, as is Groves if he gets the chance. I'd far more like those guys than someone like Francis who goes in a huff as he was feeling put out. The more people like Radacanu bring to attention that people can feel drawn to several different countries areas etc the better for me.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do they have British Passports...and how? British Mother or Fathers? If thats the case then fine...i have no issue.

It is a fair question.

The blurb following the Australian states he has a British passport but not how. It also states he's the cousin of Nadolo. I'd guess English mother.

Groves I can't actually see any info at all so may have to take that part of the statement back. He's played U20's for England for the last 2 seasons though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah and its a thought that is wider than you e.g. Faletau isn't Welsh etc. I just think it's a bit old fashioned. I've criticised past rules on the base of Flutey ie i don't think players should be able to swap allegiance once committed which is more wide spread when players swap codes. Very rare though. After that though any rule doesn't satisfy everyone in every instance. We need to just play to the rules. Cokanasiga playing for England is great, as is Groves if he gets the chance. I'd far more like those guys than someone like Francis who goes in a huff as he was feeling put out. The more people like Radacanu bring to attention that people can feel drawn to several different countries areas etc the better for me.

Cokanasiga has been in the UK(or UK system, being an army brat) from the age of 3. Personally not too fussed about strict definitions of nationality for the reasons we have done to death.

What I think is much easier to track is where players are developed. Cokanasiga is very much an England product. Groves marginal and Willemsen so far not at all.

It is what it is, and as 7.5 says, you play to the rules.

I'd support an asymmetric rule for Tier 1 and Tier 2, though - longer qualification to switch eligibility for Tier 1 if no ties to the country, coupled with the ability for players with Tier 2 heritage to switch back to that after playing for Tier 1.

Changing allegiance happens pretty regularly in the likes of athletics and tennis, and no-one bats an eyelid. For some reason team sports - where you'd think it would matter less - provoke a much stronger response. Maybe it's the tribal element.

I just want to see clear links between the player and the country they elect to play for.

Be it residency, mother / father etc.

Anyway...this has been done to death...sorry i re-raised it.

EDIT: Whoever is selected i will always support 100% regardless.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah and its a thought that is wider than you e.g. Faletau isn't Welsh etc. I just think it's a bit old fashioned. I've criticised past rules on the base of Flutey ie i don't think players should be able to swap allegiance once committed which is more wide spread when players swap codes. Very rare though. After that though any rule doesn't satisfy everyone in every instance. We need to just play to the rules. Cokanasiga playing for England is great, as is Groves if he gets the chance. I'd far more like those guys than someone like Francis who goes in a huff as he was feeling put out. The more people like Radacanu bring to attention that people can feel drawn to several different countries areas etc the better for me.

That young lass has been in England since she was 2. Only media people with agendas would see her as anything other than British.

There are many who wouldn't see her as British because of her parents country of origin, and they aren't all part of the media. That she wore red/blue/yellow in the final and gave interviews in Mandarin is definitely noteworthy, and should be applauded

You play to the rules that exist even if you don't necessarily like them.

I'm not sure that most people are dual (or more) qualified, but certainly there 's a good proportion that are, and probably over-represented in sport as children of former players (so the likes of Faletau, Vunipolas etc). While I am only English qualified, I have a niece who would qualify for England / Britain and Germany by parentage and Switzerland by birth and residence so far - just needs to move to be a full-on Raducanu.

I've said before, my biggest issue is with residential qualification when a player moves to a country for a professional contract - that's why the likes of Flutey and Nathan Hughes sit less well with me even than the likes of Hendre Fourie or Mauritz Botha, who moved to England for education reasons and stayed, getting better at rugby while here and ultimately getting a chance to make a good living.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah and its a thought that is wider than you e.g. Faletau isn't Welsh etc. I just think it's a bit old fashioned. I've criticised past rules on the base of Flutey ie i don't think players should be able to swap allegiance once committed which is more wide spread when players swap codes. Very rare though. After that though any rule doesn't satisfy everyone in every instance. We need to just play to the rules. Cokanasiga playing for England is great, as is Groves if he gets the chance. I'd far more like those guys than someone like Francis who goes in a huff as he was feeling put out. The more people like Radacanu bring to attention that people can feel drawn to several different countries areas etc the better for me.

That young lass has been in England since she was 2. Only media people with agendas would see her as anything other than British.

I always think Mo Farah.

I lived in Woolwich when Somali refugees started arriving in large numbers, and they seemed very alien. A few years later Farah arrives in athletics and they interview him, and everything about him just screams 'London'.

Yeah I was going to say a similar point Bam, she obviously sees herself as a sum of parts. The idea that Britishness or Englishness is an easily definable unfluid state is out of date (if it ever were a thing). Sometimes it's obviously in part defined by how good you are in your career etc, she's 'obviously' British just as the Romanian plumber next door is 'obviously' Romanian.

But yeah, it's been done, but certainly not dusted.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah and its a thought that is wider than you e.g. Faletau isn't Welsh etc. I just think it's a bit old fashioned. I've criticised past rules on the base of Flutey ie i don't think players should be able to swap allegiance once committed which is more wide spread when players swap codes. Very rare though. After that though any rule doesn't satisfy everyone in every instance. We need to just play to the rules. Cokanasiga playing for England is great, as is Groves if he gets the chance. I'd far more like those guys than someone like Francis who goes in a huff as he was feeling put out. The more people like Radacanu bring to attention that people can feel drawn to several different countries areas etc the better for me.

That young lass has been in England since she was 2. Only media people with agendas would see her as anything other than British.

I always think Mo Farah.

I lived in Woolwich when Somali refugees started arriving in large numbers, and they seemed very alien. A few years later Farah arrives in athletics and they interview him, and everything about him just screams 'London'.

I don't think the ongoing 'culture wars' does anything for this topic either. I'm still looking in puzzlement at yesterday culture announcement that tv should focus on programmes Britishness. Despite the comment admitting its ill defined the dog whistle goes out that that means Dads Army, Only Fools and Derry Girls. No mention of Save me or I may destroy you despite them being as British as they come. The more observant may see a pattern that even the Irish programme is seen as more 'us' than those last 2. At least in this convo Cokanasiga is seen as more acceptable than Groves so we're one up on the Government.

I'm clearly well off track.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I was going to say a similar point Bam, she obviously sees herself as a sum of parts. The idea that Britishness or Englishness is an easily definable unfluid state is out of date (if it ever were a thing). Sometimes it's obviously in part defined by how good you are in your career etc, she's 'obviously' British just as the Romanian plumber next door is 'obviously' Romanian.

But yeah, it's been done, but certainly not dusted.

Yeah that's the thing for me, many who are very loud about her being obviously British now that she's won a tennis tournament would not have the same opinion of someone else of the exact same background who is working as a plasterer or a cleaner. Sporting success shouldn't give her any more right to be seen as British but unfortunately there are many who won't see it that way

People like Farah, Raducanu, Cokanasiga or Faletau are not the issue in the eligbility debate but rather your Flutey's or Hughes' or Stander, the players who represent a country for convenience. Despite the fact he had an English mother I didn't particularly like the fact Ben Te'o played for England, just didn't feel right. Nationality doesn't really come into it but a player should be a product of their national teams system.

My original question related to Alex Groves...

Apparently... He Qualifies for England u20s by living in England (u20s, outside of the junior world cup, you only have to be living in the country to be qualified)
He's not EQP officially

Interesting

So that the same when Martin Johnson played for the AB U20's

“From a young age emigrating was always the base of the idea. Australia quickly dissipated and England came into the picture because my dad was born there and moved to South Africa when he was young, so I be able to play for England without having to wait for years, which was a huge bonus. That’s what actually finalised the plan of going to England. So, the goal is to play for England and then hopefully wear a British & Irish Lions jersey one day.”

https://www.iol.co.za/sport/rugby/how-do-we-ensure-that-the-post-school-player-exodus-doesnt-become-a-real-problem-bbc19799-b276-4c20-8a65-896ff7c6776f

Nope. Qualifies through his dad.

Ah ok...so paternal rights. Nice to see we were second choice....

Again though just reflects the people have lots of different ties. Me, I'm born and raised in England, both sides of my family are English stretching back. My wife if born and bred English, her dad considered himself Irish as his parents were from there despite being brought up here. Her mum is Welsh. What should she have had to be? Should Hamish Watson really consider himself Scottish, should he have to represent England or no one? Scotland u20s but Leicester academy where is that line drawn. Clearly Moriarty shouldn't be allowed to represent Wales. etc.

And to add....thats the attitude that bugs me.

Well i was going to go to Australia and then play for Australia...but then ah that kind of went away. My dads born in England so i dont have to have a qualification period, so ill just go play for them...

Rules are rules as long as you're not making stuff up and cheating as has been the case in the recent past just get on with it. Will i be annoyed or proud to see guys like Groves pull on an England shirt?

GeordieFalcon wrote:And to add....thats the attitude that bugs me.

Well i was going to go to Australia and then play for Australia...but then ah that kind of went away. My dads born in England so i dont have to have a qualification period, so ill just go play for them...

Because he has options. We're not living in the past. People can and do have different and conflicting motivations.

People do have options, and i get and fully back the exceptions...but in the most part when it comes to international sporting issues, i want to see players who have come through our systems representing England.

Thats the whole idea of International sport...not just swapping nations willy nilly to suit.

And if thats old fashioned....then im old fashioned....

For the players, it makes sense in every direction to play for whomever invites you - and who can blame them? It's a short career and it's hard to begrudge players, especially PI players, the chance to earn more money for their families.

The issue is with the unions, and part of the problem is that they take different views depending on their situation. Lots of kids with Scottish or Welsh ancestry grow up in England. NZ has a large pool of players who are the children of economic migrants from the Pacific Islands. South Africa has weak home economy and close enough ties with the home nations that players can easily come up here.

The solution probably lies in ensuring that the Tier 2 nations get more of a chance to earn revenue, and therefore be able to pay their players well to play for them, coupled with sorting out the calendar so that there are adequate training and match windows for Internationals.

But that needs more money in the game as a whole, so that the pressure to play more games is lessened, I think. It's possible - to risk voicing an unpopular opinion - that 12s is the way out of this. If it catches on, and can flow money down to players, clubs and unions, then it could be an engine for sustainability in the game. Anyone know cricket well enough to know if IPL has had that effect for them?

GeordieFalcon wrote:People do have options, and i get and fully back the exceptions...but in the most part when it comes to international sporting issues,  i want to see players who have come through our systems representing England.

Thats the whole idea of International sport...not just swapping nations willy nilly to suit.

And if thats old fashioned....then im old fashioned....

Have Groves or Willemsen represented SA or Aus? I don't think they have so from that its all good. And Mortiarty should obviously have been made to play for England despite him wanting to play for Wales. Still not sure what that means for Hamish Watson like.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:People do have options, and i get and fully back the exceptions...but in the most part when it comes to international sporting issues,  i want to see players who have come through our systems representing England.

Thats the whole idea of International sport...not just swapping nations willy nilly to suit.

And if thats old fashioned....then im old fashioned....

Have Groves or Willemsen represented SA or Aus? I don't think they have so from that its all good. And Mortiarty should obviously have been made to play for England despite him wanting to play for Wales. Still not sure what that means for Hamish Watson like.

As i said above there are exceptions...which i recognize! Moriarty was always going to play for Wales...its not difficult to see. (though i do question WHY he played for England U20) And there are many other similar cases...

I'm guessing you're similar to me Geordie in the fact you don't have split allegiances. A lot do. My sister in law switches her shirts depending on who is playing who. Not hard to figure professionals do so too.

In other news Pat Lam has signed a new 5 year contract who pretty much prises the RFU looking to him should Jones falter.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm guessing you're similar to me Geordie in the fact you don't have split allegiances. A lot do. My sister in law switches her shirts depending on who is playing who. Not hard to figure professionals do so too.

In other news Pat Lam has signed a new 5 year contract who pretty much prises the RFU looking to him should Jones falter.

My mams Scottish 7.5 and my Grandad was Irish...:-)
I grew up in Liberia, West Africa.

So im well aware of the "exceptions and complications"

i still think Borthwick is the RFU's man...he just needs to prove it now with his tigers rebuilding...

There's someone in a multiverse somewhere complaining that you've turned out for England when you should be playing for Liberia!

I like Borthwick as a coach as long as he gets someone else to take tv interviews following drab Italy wins. Think there are a few people putting in some strong efforts but being tied long term. I'm sure we're all going to be pleasantly surprised with the style and result this year anyway so not urgent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's someone in a multiverse somewhere complaining that you've turned out for England when you should be playing for Liberia!

I like Borthwick as a coach as long as he gets someone else to take tv interviews following drab Italy wins. Think there are a few people putting in some strong efforts but being tied long term. I'm sure we're all going to be pleasantly surprised with the style and result this year anyway so not urgent.

Oh God, I'd tried to blank the memory of those post match interviews with him as captain...

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's someone in a multiverse somewhere complaining that you've turned out for England when you should be playing for Liberia!

I like Borthwick as a coach as long as he gets someone else to take tv interviews following drab Italy wins. Think there are a few people putting in some strong efforts but being tied long term. I'm sure we're all going to be pleasantly surprised with the style and result this year anyway so not urgent.

Jeez Even Liberia must be bad if they want me to play for them.

Well Eddie's problem positions of lock and 15 helped this afternoon. Martin gets man of the match and both fullbacks Steward and Hodge put in accomplished performances.

I thought Martin was outstanding. His carrying has come a long way in a short time and his defence is always prominent. He makes a lot of dominant hits. Without wanting to be a party pooper he's still doing it from 6 for Tigers though.

He's also doing so with Liebenberg as our primary lineout jumper also in the back row so he's effectively 4th choice lineout option. He's capable of being much more prominent than that in the lineout of course, he's briefly called the lineout for Tigers already, but he'll need to show it consistently for Tigers before being used an international lock I'd presume. No doubt a huge talent though.

Steward and Hodge were both impressive. Steward looked the more assured to me but that's unsurprising given he's played more senior rugby. I was really happy to see Steward running more in attack. Hodge never broke out but even in a game where things weren't quite going his way it's clear how nimble is footwork is. Both look like very good fullbacks indeed.

Agree on all that. Martin could do with playing a bit in the row this season because it would push on his international aspirations. His hits on the Chiefs forwards were thunderous, so many were dominant and drove the man back.

Steward looks like he's 30 he's just such a rock. His attacking game showed up more now we're playing with some actual structure he seems more confident at hitting the line at pace which makes him more dangerous.

Hodge other than his charge down kick was pretty composed for Chiefs. He didn't come and collect the high balls in the way that Steward did but few do. Chiefs didn't make the most of elusive running as he looked like he could be a real handful if given more of a chance.

Radwan also looked electric. Every time he got near the ball there was almost panic in the Harlequins defence. Normally with these young wingers you can look and say well they don't like tackling, they're a bit weak in the air, positioning is suspect; I don't see that with him. Just makes very good choices consistently.

Then you have the Quirke looking electric for Sale, van Poortvliet looking better than his senior partner. Quite pleased it's Tonga up first as I think we could see a good number of these guys getting a chance ahead of the more challenging games. At the moment I'd be inclined to be seeing a back 3 of Radwan, May and Steward and I don't see that as a risk.

You can add Radwan in aswell....

11 Watson / May
14 Radwan
15 Steward

Now that has a whole lot to like!!

Beat me to it 7.5

I saw somewhere over the weekend that May has been recording some of his fastest ever times for 100mm, now he has had a good break and a full pre-season he might give us the May we used to know and an even quicker one.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I saw somewhere over the weekend that May has been recording some of his fastest ever times for 100mm, now he has had a good break and a full pre-season he might give us the May we used to know and an even quicker one.

It is interesting. We always talk about players losing their pace as they get older. There is obviously a lot more wear and tear in rugby, but in track athletics sprinters often have long careers.

And apparently Manu played 80mins....

We could have a seriously rapid backline in the coming years. And then a few bruisers too. Woudln't be nice if Tuilagi could have an Indian summer to his England career but tbh I don't even think about him as he's so often injured. It's Kelly, Lawrence, Odogwu and Marchant when I'm thinking about the future for me.

Eddie Jones has some big decsions coming up...both in the forwards and backs. Is Tuesday squad announcement just a training camp?

Assuming Genge will be captain with all the Lions players out?

Full Back
Daly v Malins v Steward (He might even bring Hodge in for a once over)

Wings
Watson v May v Cokasaniga v Hassel Collins v Sleightholme v Loader v Radwan...

Thats just FB and Wings...

Scrum half is another where the kids are really putting their hands up.

I hope that Jones builds the attack around the template he used early on with Ford-Farrell-Joseph when they weren't relying on a crash ball carrier in the backs as much but were looking to play fast, use JJs running lines and support play.

The great thing about Manu is that adapting a game plan to suit him is pretty easy. It's pretty obvious what you're going to use him for, it's just less obvious how to stop it if he's fully fit. If we build a game plan around Manu, then he's injured, it becomes very difficult to replace him as few backs in rugby offer what he does making yards through contact.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I saw somewhere over the weekend that May has been recording some of his fastest ever times for 100mm, now he has had a good break and a full pre-season he might give us the May we used to know and an even quicker one.

I'd be surprised with that as he looks like he's slowing down. Perhaps it's his initial acceleration that is going but his top end is still good? End of the day, it's not often a winger gets 50/60m of open field to run in.

It's why Radwan seems so quick, his acceleration is insane. I'm not sure he'd beat someone like LRZ over 100m but over 50 or so it would be a great contest.

I'd really like to see....

11. Watson
14. Radwan
15. Hodge

Coming together....what a trio of runners! Hopefully Hodge gets a good run this season to try and catch up to other guys.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Eddie Jones has some big decsions coming up...both in the forwards and backs. Is Tuesday squad announcement just a training camp?

Assuming Genge will be captain with all the Lions players out?

Full Back
Daly v Malins v Steward (He might even bring Hodge in for a once over)

Wings
Watson v May v Cokasaniga v Hassel Collins v Sleightholme v Loader v Radwan...

Thats just FB and Wings...

Scrum half is another where the kids are really putting their hands up.

Nowell's playing again as well. He's still a much better player than most you've listed there GF.

10.Smith, Ford
11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Manu
13.Marchant, Daly
14.Watson, Cokanasiga
15.Nowell, Steward, Malins

Those would be my backs if picking an EPS just now. Covers all the bases and lots of different tactical options.

KC...Nowell and Manu are in the same boat...they're just permanently injured, so im excluding them from discussions at the moment.

i have no faith that you can build a long term back line with them involved.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I saw somewhere over the weekend that May has been recording some of his fastest ever times for 100mm, now he has had a good break and a full pre-season he might give us the May we used to know and an even quicker one.

I'd be surprised with that as he looks like he's slowing down. Perhaps it's his initial acceleration that is going but his top end is still good? End of the day, it's not often a winger gets 50/60m of open field to run in.

It's why Radwan seems so quick, his acceleration is insane. I'm not sure he'd beat someone like LRZ over 100m but over 50 or so it would be a great contest.

I'd really like to see....

11. Watson
14. Radwan
15. Hodge

Coming together....what a trio of runners! Hopefully Hodge gets a good run this season to try and catch up to other guys.

Thats exactly why i likened him to Jason Robinson. Jason couldnt do the 100m thing brilliantly...but over 30/40m and in heavy traffic, the guy was untouchable. Radwan is very similar. Put him in a phone box and he'll step and run rings around you.

I keep hearing Lynagh being mentioned aswell.. i just dont see what all the fuss is about. Think theres lots better than him. Players like Harry Potter etc....

Let Lynagh go and player for Aus or Italy...

GeordieFalcon wrote:I keep hearing Lynagh being mentioned aswell.. i just dont see what all the fuss is about. Think theres lots better than him. Players like Harry Potter etc....

Let Lynagh go and player for Aus or Italy...

Agreed. He wouldn't let you down and he's a smart player, the kind of good but not brilliant guy who can have a very long international career without ever really sparking something special. I don't think he has a USP that puts him above the alternatives in what could be a very talented crop.

Lynagh looks a good club player but not sure he'd be being mentioned if not for his surname. Then again Bassett has just been picked ahead of Hassell-Collins so who knows sometimes.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lynagh looks a good club player but not sure he'd be being mentioned if not for his surname. Then again Bassett has just been picked ahead of Hassell-Collins so who knows sometimes.

Lynagh's still in the academy and just entering his second full season. He's scored 8 tries in less than 800 minutes of first team rugby, including 6 in his last 4 games, 1 of which was in a semi-final and 2 in the Final itself. There are not many players who have achieved that before signing their first senior contract. His reading of the game is very good for such an inexperienced player - as might be expected given the coaching he'll had had at home.

The name is one thing, but the bigger point about his lineage is that he qualifies for Australia and Italy as well as England. He isn't ready for international rugby yet, but he might be at some point - and the question then becomes whether one of the other countries he's qualified for will get him first.