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GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12.

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power!

I think there likely will be some rotation, but if Eddie is committing to Smith then he may well play all three tests, not least because the more experience he can get before facing SA the better. Given how limited his Lions involvement was, I doubt he will be required to rotate. The Lions rest period I think was predicated on players taking a full part in the tour, which he didn't.

If that is the case, my preference would be to have a stable starting spine and the variation coming from the bench.

8. Dombrandt
9. Randall
10. Smith
12. Tuilagi (if fit) / Farrell (if not)
13. Marchant

across all three games would offer a good opportunity to get attack patterns working.

By my understanding all England players on the Lions tour have to have a rest week in the AIs.

As opposed to the 10 week rest period for England's Lions which is dependent on them having been in the EPS. Baxter has mentioned that Simmonds for instance only has a 5 week mandatory rest period as opposed to 10 week because he wasn't in the EPS.

Poorfour wrote:I think there likely will be some rotation, but if Eddie is committing to Smith then he may well play all three tests, not least because the more experience he can get before facing SA the better. Given how limited his Lions involvement was, I doubt he will be required to rotate. The Lions rest period I think was predicated on players taking a full part in the tour, which he didn't.

If that is the case, my preference would be to have a stable starting spine and the variation coming from the bench.

8. Dombrandt
9. Randall
10. Smith
12. Tuilagi (if fit) / Farrell (if not)
13. Marchant

across all three games would offer a good opportunity to get attack patterns working.

Then we better hope Tuilagi stays fit long enough so Smith can work with him and Slade (oops, I mean Marchant, but I doubt Eddie Jones would trust a backline with Randall, Smith, Tuilagi, and Marchant against the Boks or Wallabies).

KC interesting that you put George Martin at lock rather than 6? And then Ted Hill at back row.

It would appear that ted Hill is being looked at for lock and Martin more for 6.

Or...does it not actually matter when you have two big powerful mobile units like them?

Hill had one game at lock for Worcester in a dead rubber when they had some injuries, followed by a bench appearance there in a game when England's lock options were so depleted that Josh McNally started. In the summer England were missing Itoje, Lawes, Kruis, Launchbury, Hill and Ribbans from the lock options. I don't think it was ever a long term thing. He started round 1 for Wuss back at blindside.

Martin has played most his senior rugby in the back row thus far but I think his best position will be lock in long run.

Martin's lineout work definitely has the potential to be good enough as an international lock importantly. I don't think the same is true of Hill. The only locks in international rugby that don't really have any lineout presence are Willemse (France), Lavanini (Argentina) and Kote Mikautadze (Georgia). All of them are complemented by back rows with good lineout ability who are also great back rowers - Ollivon, Cretin and Woki for France, Petti and Kremer for Argentina, Beka Gorgadze for Georgia. In other words second rows offering nowt in the lineout is rare these days and only really happens in teams where their best back rows can be primary lineout jumpers anyway. Shoehorning Hill into the second row would just create issues with balancing the lineout through the back row that we really don't need and just doesn't play to our strengths in my opinion.

We have lots of second rows who are great in the lineout and lots of flankers who are great around the park. I think we should build a lineout around those second rows with the back row being used as occasional jumpers when they aren't being marked by the opposition like we did with Curry going into the 2019 RWC.

Yeah I do think ultimately George Martin will move to lock...he could be some lock aswell...

It's no secret I'm a huge fan of Ted Hill. He has real physicality....it'll be interesting to see if Jones uses him or prefers his more mobile flankers..

I see Jack Nowell is injured again...

What is going on with Nowell? He has had rotten luck with injuries.

Not sure just heard he wasnt selected for Exeter due to injury

doctor_grey wrote:What is going on with Nowell?  He has had rotten luck with injuries.

He told the Rugby Pass podcast he's had nine major operations in ten seasons. He's been carrying some major encumbrance his whole career, which probably explains why he has been good at international level but never been able to sustain it, in the way he has for Exeter.

Not sure how the game is developing now but there was a time when Nowell was a perfect complement for England, and should have reigned supreme.

Manu Tuilagi is the poster boy here, because he has shown top form in several Tests, two of them against New Zealand. His "what might have been, but for injury" story can be measured against genuine high level achievement. Most England missed opportunities (Nick Duncombe RIP, Tom Rees, Sam Jones etc) never got going.

It's interesting to compare Nowell's career with James Simpson Daniel, a very different winger but also prone to niggles. Nowell has been injured more often, and for longer, than Sinbad but was usually included in England squads as soon as he was fit (or even unfit, as happened at the last World Cup). That meant he got a run out at Test level almost every time he could walk. By contrast, when Sinbad returned from injury, England coaches waited to see how fit he was, so they ended up selecting him as he was about to pick up an injury, raher than when he was coming back from one.

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:What is going on with Nowell?  He has had rotten luck with injuries.

He told the Rugby Pass podcast he's had nine major operations in ten seasons. He's been carrying some major encumbrance his whole career, which probably explains why he has been good at international level but never been able to sustain it, in the way he has for Exeter.

Not sure how the game is developing now but there was a time when Nowell was a perfect complement for England, and should have reigned supreme.

Manu Tuilagi is the poster boy here, because he has shown top form in several Tests, two of them against New Zealand. His "what might have been, but for injury" story can be measured against genuine high level achievement. Most England missed opportunities (Nick Duncombe RIP, Tom Rees, Sam Jones etc) never got going.

It's interesting to compare Nowell's career with James Simpson Daniel, a very different winger but also prone to niggles. Nowell has been injured more often, and for longer, than Sinbad but was usually included in England squads as soon as he was fit (or even unfit, as happened at the last World Cup). That meant he got a run out at Test level almost every time he could walk. By contrast, when Sinbad returned from injury, England coaches waited to see how fit he was, so they ended up selecting him as he was about to pick up an injury, raher than when he was coming back from one.

I'm just glad that Nowell has got a decent number of test apps, Six Nations winners medals and a couple of Lions caps in between the injuries. He's such a great player when fit. One of the best defensive wings in the game and a very good finisher close to the line.

Corbisiero can be added to the injured list.

Harry Ellis should have had a much longer England career as well.

Nowell is just a classy player. The joke that he could have played as the 8th forward of course but I think he could have and probably still does offer a much better cover option from 12 to 15 than the much praised (and maligned) Daly despite never playing in midfield.

Nine ops in ten years is serious. Perhaps he is at the end of the road, or at least should consider taking part of the season off to get as healthy and strong as possible...

doctor_grey wrote:Nine ops in ten years is serious.  Perhaps he is at the end of the road, or at least should consider taking part of the season off to get as healthy and strong as possible...

Its an interesting idea. He would still be in contention for the next RWC if he did so. I would say that right now it feels a little like the end of the road for him for England, but for good reason as we have got very good players coming through in the backs. None will be like him though

Has it all been different injuries...or is there one particular one which has plagued him?

Foot surgery (recurring issue)
Knee surgery
Ankle surgery
Torn hammy
Torn quad
Shoulder surgery after nerve damage
Broken eye socket

To top it off he had time out after a burst appendix as well. So unfortunate.

The lower body injuries (foot, ankle, knee, hammy, thigh) are all on the same leg though I believe which tends to be indicative of previous injuries having a knock on effect.

Cheers KC

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I saw somewhere over the weekend that May has been recording some of his fastest ever times for 100mm, now he has had a good break and a full pre-season he might give us the May we used to know and an even quicker one.

Read something earlier about Radwan on this. He's officially England's fastest ever player over 100m, clocking 10.6 seconds over 100m.

He's also posted the fastest top speed in the Prem (current players) with 10.88m/sec. LRZ's best effort is 10.5m/s but was over 18months ago, so suspect he may have improved. Christian Wade is apparently the fastest on record in the Prem with a 11.1m/sec.

I once clocked a less impressive 0.3m/sec going to the fridge for another beer for those interested.

Going to say it quietly, but Tuilagi has looked very good for Sale, he has clearly slimmed down and is looking fit and mobile.

Cumbrian wrote:Going to say it quietly, but Tuilagi has looked very good for Sale, he has clearly slimmed down and is looking fit and mobile.

Well there's that was one jinxed.....well done Cumbrian.

Ha! I aim to please.

Manu has slimmed down after each of his last few injuries. He must be a fair bit lighter than he was at his heaviest now.

For me Manu is so good when fully fit that we don't actually need to build a backline around him as England have in the past. I'd rather build our attack around runners such as Marchant at 13 as we did in '16 and '17 with JJ. Then if Manu is fit he can be plugged in and will more often than not add to the side massively as few offer the power he does at his best.

Manu is very influential in Sales performance today...how good would it be to get him back fit for rhe next few years until the WC...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I saw somewhere over the weekend that May has been recording some of his fastest ever times for 100mm, now he has had a good break and a full pre-season he might give us the May we used to know and an even quicker one.

Read something earlier about Radwan on this. He's officially England's fastest ever player over 100m, clocking 10.6 seconds over 100m.

He's also posted the fastest top speed in the Prem (current players) with 10.88m/sec. LRZ's best effort is 10.5m/s but was over 18months ago, so suspect he may have improved. Christian Wade is apparently the fastest on record in the Prem with a 11.1m/sec.

I once clocked a less impressive 0.3m/sec going to the fridge for another beer for those interested.

The difference with Radwan is his work in heavy traffic. When he's surrounded by players he can jink and step in a phone box....That's why I've likened him more to Jason Robinson than wingers who are better in open space like say Johnny May.

Chelsin Kolbe has been doing this for South Africa and it just gives you a weapon that can create things from nothing...

I can tell you one player that is playing well enough to be considered for a few more England caps. He won't be and quite rightly, as

1. he is too old
2. we have younger players that need to be introduced into the set up.

He is however, playing at the top of his game and in the two games to date has looked the best back row forward on the pitch. His line out work both offensive and defensive has been to notch.

Tom Wood.


Another Saint that needs to be captured quickly is Dingwall, he may only be a 90kg lightweight, but he hits like a bulldozer, completely smashed Hodge on Saturday and makes some very good line breaks. Seems to relish the 12 shirt and trucking it up, despite he being a relative lightweight.

To be fair smashing Hodge isn't a problem if you catch him. The lad has the physique of a twiglet. He could bulk up a little yet but I don't think he's ever likely to be a physical presence. At least his tackle technique is decent.

Nice to see Wood have an Autumn summer in his career but I agree his time has long since past. Kenningham is probably the closest like for like option we have currently and he has bags of potential. Could be a great option at 6 going forward.

Anyone know if Quirke made the training sessions? Sounds as if he was pretty close to playing for Sale but obviously dropped out last minute.

Cockerill name dropping Genge seems really positive for him too. Looking forward to seeing him take on Aus and SA's scrums, nice to see a move towards selections back the words of treasuring setpiece.

I also hope that the RFU do not consider roping in McGeechan to help pick the next coach. Do not like his views on this! via Walesonline nicking it from the Torygraph:

Rugby legend Sir Ian McGeechan says Warren Gatland would be top of the list for the England job - if it were available today.

The Rugby Football Union will seek a successor to Eddie Jones when he leaves his post after the 2023 World Cup, triggering speculation about who they might appoint.

McGeechan has given his own take in a column for the Telegraph, where he said former Wales boss Gatland would be perfect for the job at the moment and will doubtless come under consideration when Jones goes.

Read more: For the latest rugby news and interviews, stop by our home of Welsh rugby

"I do not think there is any single 'right' approach. England need to take the best candidate available whether from home or abroad, whether he is English or Kiwi, whether he has worked within the system or not," said McGeechan.

"If you were offering the job to someone tomorrow, the person at the top of my list, for a two-year appointment to take England to the next World Cup, would probably be Warren Gatland.

"Simply because Gats has the experience, the track record, knows the players, would be able to gel everyone together and is reasonably available."

However, McGeechan stressed: "But the RFU is looking to appoint someone in two years’ time. That opens up a whole raft of potential candidates."

He threw in the names of Rob Baxter and Mark McCall as options, but hinted they may prefer to remain with Exeter and Saracens respectively.

"Those conversations need to happen sooner," said McGeechan.

"Certainly, if either was interested, he should come under consideration. The two other big hitters, and again they would be near the top of my list if you were offering the role to someone tomorrow, would be John Mitchell and Andy Farrell.

"They have experience of working within the England set-up, the former under Eddie, which would ensure a measure of continuity. command respect.

"Coaches who might be deemed too young or inexperienced now – Lee Blackett, Alex Sanderson, Steve Borthwick – could come into the reckoning if they continue to impress at their clubs."

McGeechan says the person "arguably best placed to make a charge" is England forwards coach Richard Cockerill, the former boss of Leicester and Edinburgh.

He would offer England an appoint from within option and McGeechan says: "Cockerill has two years to build his man-management skills because that is probably the most important quality for an international coach."

Just give it to Borthwick and lets be done. He's rebuilding the Tigers nicely...with a brand of rugby most people will like. Big abrasive forward pack...and entertaining backs.

He has experience with England...

Next subject please.

John Mitchell, Richard Cockerill and Andy Farrell.....thanks but no thanks.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just give it to Borthwick and lets be done. He's rebuilding the Tigers nicely...with a brand of rugby most people will like. Big abrasive forward pack...and entertaining backs.

He has experience with England...

Next subject please.

Now let's not be hasty let's leave Borthwick where he is a few years and then re-evaluate.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just give it to Borthwick and lets be done. He's rebuilding the Tigers nicely...with a brand of rugby most people will like. Big abrasive forward pack...and entertaining backs.

He has experience with England...

Next subject please.

Now let's not be hasty let's leave Borthwick where he is a few years and then re-evaluate.

I agree. 6th place in the Prem and almost 20pts away from 4th (with one of the larger budgets in the league) doesn't exactly scream out next England coach.

If he can get that Tigers outfit genuinely competing with the big boys again, he might suddenly become part of the conversation.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just give it to Borthwick and lets be done. He's rebuilding the Tigers nicely...with a brand of rugby most people will like. Big abrasive forward pack...and entertaining backs.

He has experience with England...

Next subject please.

Now let's not be hasty let's leave Borthwick where he is a few years and then re-evaluate.

I agree. 6th place in the Prem and almost 20pts away from 4th (with one of the larger budgets in the league) doesn't exactly scream out next England coach.

If he can get that Tigers outfit genuinely competing with the big boys again, he might suddenly become part of the conversation.

In fairness it's taken a short period of time for him to be able to phase out B Youngs.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just give it to Borthwick and lets be done. He's rebuilding the Tigers nicely...with a brand of rugby most people will like. Big abrasive forward pack...and entertaining backs.

He has experience with England...

Next subject please.

Now let's not be hasty let's leave Borthwick where he is a few years and then re-evaluate.

I agree. 6th place in the Prem and almost 20pts away from 4th (with one of the larger budgets in the league) doesn't exactly scream out next England coach.

If he can get that Tigers outfit genuinely competing with the big boys again, he might suddenly become part of the conversation.

Erm i was suggesting for AFTER the world cup when Jones finishes....?

I think Gatland would be the wrong choice for England. I think his style is too conservative, and too based on playing to win penalties, and it wouldn't make the most of the talent we have coming through. Maybe he'd prove me wrong, and I can recognise the constraints he was under but the style of play that the Lions adopted was effectively to try to out-Bok the Boks with one effective trick (exceptionally good kick chase), and when that stopped working there was nothing left until Finn Russell got on.

Beyond that, I think the three most important criteria for selecting an England head coach are:

1. Are they temperamentally suited to the head coach role? Some very good coaches just aren't - Andy Robinson was one, Stuart Lancaster arguably another. The most important part of the head coach role through the majority of the cycle is to assess the pipeline of talent and the way the game is moving, and to pick the right players and the right elements of the game plan at the right time to make that happen.

2. Have they coached at an RWC? There have been very few first time winners of the RWC (and from memory all of them have been South African...). There's a huge risk to picking someone who hasn't coached through the tournament before, whether as head coach of a smaller nation or an assistant to a larger one. For me, this is a must have.

3. Do they have the vision and stature to assemble the right coaching team and work the RFU and PRL politics successfully? Whoever does the job has to be able to attract top coaching talent - some of it from outside union - and meld that into a credible team. And also not be afraid to change the support team when there's a need to move on. They also have to be able to manage the relationship with the clubs.

2nd one I wouldn't be bothered about at all. I don't see the world cup as the be all and end all though. I'd rather look glorious outside the wc and than vice versa. Ideally of course both.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just give it to Borthwick and lets be done. He's rebuilding the Tigers nicely...with a brand of rugby most people will like. Big abrasive forward pack...and entertaining backs.

He has experience with England...

Next subject please.

Now let's not be hasty let's leave Borthwick where he is a few years and then re-evaluate.

I agree. 6th place in the Prem and almost 20pts away from 4th (with one of the larger budgets in the league) doesn't exactly scream out next England coach.

If he can get that Tigers outfit genuinely competing with the big boys again, he might suddenly become part of the conversation.

Erm i was suggesting for AFTER the world cup when Jones finishes....?

At this moment in time though....he's done nothing really of note. How can you predict in 2 years time he will have? I was just suggesting that on paper, Borthwick doesn't even deserve to be in the conversation really, he needs to prove himself.

No 7&1/2 wrote:2nd one I wouldn't be bothered about at all. I don't see the world cup as the be all and end all though. I'd rather look glorious outside the wc and than vice versa. Ideally of course both.

It's important if you want the head coach to have a long tenure, because like it or not the RWC is what coaches are judged on. And it's a sufficiently different and difficult environment that I'd hesitate to throw a coach into it without having lived through it as a coach. Lancaster and Johnson had both seen it first hand, but not from a coaching role, and both in different ways handled it badly. I'd hate to see a good coach lost to England and possibly the game because of a bad experience at the RWC.

That would narrow down the field for the next England coach. And potentially leave us with a much less capable or primoising head coach. I'd accept there is a view by some on that though.

Theres not many candidates anyway 7.5

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just give it to Borthwick and lets be done. He's rebuilding the Tigers nicely...with a brand of rugby most people will like. Big abrasive forward pack...and entertaining backs.

He has experience with England...

Next subject please.

Now let's not be hasty let's leave Borthwick where he is a few years and then re-evaluate.

I agree. 6th place in the Prem and almost 20pts away from 4th (with one of the larger budgets in the league) doesn't exactly scream out next England coach.

If he can get that Tigers outfit genuinely competing with the big boys again, he might suddenly become part of the conversation.

Erm i was suggesting for AFTER the world cup when Jones finishes....?

At this moment in time though....he's done nothing really of note. How can you predict in 2 years time he will have? I was just suggesting that on paper, Borthwick doesn't even deserve to be in the conversation really, he needs to prove himself.

Well hes been assistant coach at a world cup final.
Hes been trained by Eddie Jones with the intention of him becoming the head coach in the future.
Hes now rebuilding a famous English club, and has so far put the building blocks of that in place nicely. Steady first season to set his stall out...and now 2 from 2 from this season, where we can see how they want to play.

Yes he has lots to prove....but I wouldnt say hes done nothing....

Baxter and Lam now under pressure to show what they can do after a bad start...is Baxter the right fit for England either?
Is Cockerill a good enough head coach...im not so sure.
Do i want Gatland....ABSOLUTELY NO!!!


Not many others putting their hand up....though in 2 years that may be different.

THink I've nailed my colours to the mast GF in Robertson. Don't agree there aren't many candidates but I guess that depends on who applies. Realistically if Jones went tomorrow who would you want applying? And in 2 years? You're not agreeing with Geech that its.....Gatland? *shudder*

Scott Robertson at the crusaders?

Yes.

Clearly a tremendous coach. I wouldnt have any issues with him in charge.

Id still be inclined to see how our home grown managers are getting on in two years time...

Baxter has spent his whole life at one club. I do think he's very talented but I don't know how easy he'd step away from that. He might want a change.

lostinwales wrote:Baxter has spent his whole life at one club. I do think he's very talented but I don't know how easy he'd step away from that. He might want a change.

But I wouldn't wish on him an immediate step up from club DoR to one of the two or three highest profile roles in world rugby, and I suspect that he's smart enough not to want to do that.

So does that then come down to guys with England experience then? Personally I'd rather have Baxter or McCall than Cockerill. And I'm still not sold on WC experience of being integral to overall success. How many coaches meet their targets at WCs and from the last one who would you particularly want? Can't remember Jones' target but getting to a final would probably meet it and still left many disappointed.

I see Ben Youngs and Lawrence have dropped out the squad, no mention of Quirke so I presume he made it. Thats a blow for Lawrence as Tuilagi looks imperious and others start to be a little more prominent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So does that then come down to guys with England experience then? Personally I'd rather have Baxter or McCall than Cockerill. And I'm still not sold on WC experience of being integral to overall success. How many coaches meet their targets at WCs and from the last one who would you particularly want? Can't remember Jones' target but getting to a final would probably meet it and still left many disappointed.

I see Ben Youngs and Lawrence have dropped out the squad, no mention of Quirke so I presume he made it. Thats a blow for Lawrence as Tuilagi looks imperious and others start to be a little more prominent.

Lawrence is very young so is not the finished article by any means but I can't say any of his performances for England have been particularly striking. He looks competent, and has probably suffered from England playing a game plan where he is hardly ever used, but still he's not really made the most of his chances.

Agree overall lost. He's got his chance at a time when England have been the most negative ball in hand as I can remember. Not rank bad performances on the whole but incredibly shy in taking chances, so he's not had too many passes. Was it against Scotland where he had 1 pass in 60 mins? He's also not been put into space too much or even used as a crash centre. What he's done, he's done well, but no bits of play where you think wow.

And yes not too much has been made of the fact that he's only 22.

Not necessarily coaches with England experience - I just think that going into Head Coach of England (or SA or NZ) as your first international coaching role is a very high risk move for both sides.

The skill set is different from being a club DoR - or rather it's a similar skill set with very different emphasis. You get far less time with the players, have to worry a lot more about selection and forming combinations from players who don't play together often. You need to be able to build a game plan that's simple enough to convey in limited coaching time but effective enough to beat other international teams, to pick specialist coaches who complement what you're trying to do.

And the RWC is sufficiently different as a tournament that it's very easy to get it wrong: once every four years you have unfettered access to the players for 3 months, but you then have to manage how to keep them effective when they're in a foreign environment for a long period and under media scrutiny every day. Of the past 4 England Head Coaches, 3 of them have lost their job because one way or another they lost the plot at the RWC - and one of them made it to the final, so it's not just about results.

The ABs have managed to have pretty good succession over the last 15 years or so and I think England ought to be able to do the same. One thing that Eddie's policy of regularly refreshing his coaching team has done is that the RFU has seen quite a few coaches in assistant roles who now do have relevant international experience.

For what it's worth, I'd see Borthwick as the leading candidate post 2023. Another candidate who's not often talked about is Conor O'Shea, though it's not clear whether he'd want to move out of the Performance Director role. He's managed Italy through a full RWC cycle but also knows the RFU arguably better than anyone still coaching, and is better suited to the Head Coach role than many more hands on coaches.

I'd be happy to see Baxter and McCall coaching at international level at some point, but the assumption that because they've been successful club DoRs they could step straight into the England role and not falter is to my mind a dangerous one.

Anyway, turning to the players, Smith - Tuilagi - Marchant would replicate the model that Quins have with Esterhuizen and which works very well.