Re: m

by king_carlos Tue 10 Aug - 16:11

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sam Simmonds should be a 12.

With limited distribution and no kicking game... I hate to be a killjoy but he sounds a bit like Manu without the same power! Whistle

by Geordie Sat 16 Oct - 12:20

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Dombrandt can do the hard stuff aswell. I think his support crew ie the pack didn't give him a platform to show his usual skills.
That sale pack is very physical...Springbok esque for obvious reasons...
I'd still start Dombrandt and see what he can do behind the England pack...

You can't go missing Vs the Springboks because you're not good at the tight exchanges though, that excuse won't fly. I'd like to see Dombrandt given a go but we know Eddie likes his number 8 to be an all action physical beast. Dombrandt wasn't that last night, hopefully he showed Eddie he can play a different way in the recent training squad because otherwise I think he could be a surprise omission. I want him to be given a go because Billy has looked well short of his best for Sarries so far.

I completely agree, to play at this level and stand out you need to be able to do the fancy stuff but also roll your sleeves up and do the nasty stuff when it's required, especially when your pack is getting beaten. It's something he will need to bring.

I do think he's capable...just will need to show it. You have to give him the chance this AI.....

The next options are Tom Willis and Chick...

I rate Willis highly but I don't think Jones was impressed...

by Geordie Sat 16 Oct - 12:24

On the other hand....how good was Tom Curry. That' boys just class. ..and so physical now aswell

by Geordie Sat 16 Oct - 15:41

Interesting to hear Dallaglio pushing Tom Willis for the near future as the most natural 8 of all the contenders....

by Geordie Sat 16 Oct - 17:51

So backs for the Ais....

9 Quirke
10 Smith
11 May
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 Watson
15 Malins

by formerly known as Sam Sat 16 Oct - 22:22

Dayglo pushing forward a Wasps player shocker. He may as well wear a Wasps shirt and be done with it.

Farrell and Slade is a horrific midfield combination. It shackled Ford in the 6N and ANC don't like it shackle Smith as well.

by Geordie Sat 16 Oct - 22:41

Sam, thats just what I think Jones will pick...

As to Willis, I rate him highly....if he continues to develop, he'll be in contention....

by nlpnlp Sun 17 Oct - 0:38

The problem is that there are not that many games until the next world cup and England need to nail down a no 8. It is a key position that England don't seem to have an obvious choice - Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick, Willis or the underperforming Billy V are all in the mix. I don't think England can wait for someone to develop, they need to go for the here and now - and then stick with them. I am sure though that off the back of Saracens grinding their way to top of the Premiership or close to it by February, that we will see the return of Billy and the other Saracen boys - Mako and Jamie.

by king_carlos Sun 17 Oct - 1:42

At the start of the 2019 RWC:

Underhill - 6 starts (1 in a RWC warm-up) and 4 bench appearances
Curry - 13 starts (3 of them in low pressure RWC warm-ups)

They didn't perform too badly in that tournament!

One thing in England's favour is that having a lot of players with bags of experience now means that they can easily slot a few younger players in amongst them if the younger guys are playing well enough.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Oct - 9:52

Yeah I agree with KC make it open season on competition. No one gets a gimme to the world cup, everyone's shirts are in the line. Competition breeds improvement in sports.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Oct - 11:20

Quirke was class. I have been thinking he still needed a bit of time but no for I'd start him vs Tonga with Randall on the bench. Let's see what he can do in these 3 games. Simmonds and Dombrandt are being in fine form but the latters offloads are a huge point of difference for me and could be lethal in internationals where there is traditionally better defences. Smith goes without saying. 13 is a question, wasn't that impressed again by Slade. A couple of nice passes over the top but just a bit meh. Think Marchant is wasted on the wing; it would be him or tuilagi for me.

by king_carlos Sun 17 Oct - 17:01

Watson gone off injured for Bath against Sarries. Looked like knee. Hopefully not long term as he has had a few long layoffs already.

Could open a door for Radwan or a Nowell recall if he stays fit.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 17 Oct - 19:02

So any outrageous left field calls to come? Could we see the injury to LCD give Frost or Dolly the most unlikely call up (considering Frost KO'd himself maybe not him). Watson's knee injury give Muir, Potter or Stevenson and unlikely shot?

For a bit of fun where is the Eddie exception coming.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Oct - 19:13

Itoje went off injured too. Didn't look too bad. Despite the horrendous nature of the match I thought Ojamoh showed up well.

by Geordie Sun 17 Oct - 20:03

formerly known as Sam wrote:So any outrageous left field calls to come? Could we see the injury to LCD give Frost or Dolly the most unlikely call up (considering Frost KO'd himself maybe not him). Watson's knee injury give Muir, Potter or Stevenson and unlikely shot?

For a bit of fun where is the Eddie exception coming.

I'm a big fan of Potter....a complete winger. Wouldn't have a complaint if he was selected.

Nowell looked class yesterday mind. I just hope him and Manu actually stay fit now. England have been so unfortunate to miss out on those outstanding talents so much.

If LCD is out...could Blamire make it in as 3rd choice hooker?. By all accounts he was excellent off the bench yesterday...physical and got 2 turnovers.

by king_carlos Sun 17 Oct - 20:39

My best guess at Eddie's squad that's being named tomorrow.

1.Marler, Genge, Vunipola
2.George, Blamire, (Riley as an apprentice player)
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith, Ford

11.May, Nowell
12.Farrell, Lawrence
13.Tuilagi, Slade, Marchant
14.Radwan, Lynagh
15.Steward, Malins

I'd take Ribbans over Ewels, Earl over Ludlam (I rate Ludlam very highly, just think Earl is even better) and Joseph over Slade.

Maybe some Tigers bias in Martin over other excellent back rows but I just think he will suit what the coaches want. Jones, Cockers and Proudfoot all seem to like an absolute unit at 6 that can jump in the lineout.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 17 Oct - 20:54

king_carlos wrote:My best guess at Eddie's squad that's being named tomorrow.

1.Marler, Genge, Vunipola
2.George, Blamire, (Riley as an apprentice player)
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith, Ford

11.May, Nowell
12.Farrell, Lawrence
13.Tuilagi, Slade, Marchant
14.Radwan, Lynagh
15.Steward, Malins

I'd take Ribbans over Ewels, Earl over Ludlam (I rate Ludlam very highly, just think Earl is even better) and Joseph over Slade.

Maybe some Tigers bias in Martin over other excellent back rows but I just think he will suit what the coaches want. Jones, Cockers and Proudfoot all seem to like an absolute unit at 6 that can jump in the lineout.

I think that's a good call. I'm going to say I expect Isiekwe to come in I hope as a lock. More my hope than expectation but the shock that Youngs misses out completely.

And Ojamoh.

by doctor_grey Sun 17 Oct - 21:01

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quirke was class. I have been thinking he still needed a bit of time but no for I'd start him vs Tonga with Randall on the bench. Let's see what he can do in these 3 games. Simmonds and Dombrandt are being in fine form but the latters offloads are a huge point of difference for me and could be lethal in internationals where there is traditionally better defences. Smith goes without saying. 13 is a question, wasn't that impressed again by Slade. A couple of nice passes over the top but just a bit meh. Think Marchant is wasted on the wing; it would be him or tuilagi for me.

Agree about Marchant on the wing. Besides I think there are better wingers available. On the other hand, 13 is Marchant's best position.

by lostinwales Sun 17 Oct - 21:10

I haven't seen anything but is Lawrence doing enough to stay in contention given how bad Worcs are?

by king_carlos Sun 17 Oct - 21:15

I think Marchant is great on the wing as well as centre. He's not like JJ who looks like an out of position centre when moved out. Marchant has been very good there for the Blues and Quins. He's got the kicking game to shift into the back three and isn't a liability defensively like many who shift out. It's a very useful thing to have a player like that who can genuinely cover multiple positions to a very high standard rather than 'versatile' players who are just OK in other positions.`

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Oct - 8:15

Feeling a little giddy this morning, haven't felt actual excitement at a squad announcement in a while as mainly you pretty much know the exact guys getting picked bar 1 or 2. This does feel like a fresh start squad and all the commentary are pointing towards that. That of course means the stodgiest of stodge coming doesn't it?

by hugehandoff Mon 18 Oct - 9:11

Farrell remains as captain and therefore will start alongside Smith, which is not ideal. Smith/Manu/Slade looks a lot more balanced with Owen on the bench, but I just cannot see that happening so it will probably be Smith/Farrell/Manu against the Aussies which I think is weaker both in attack and defence.

by Geordie Mon 18 Oct - 9:42

I see Chris Foy of the daily Fail is saying Curry will start at 8.... Laugh

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 18 Oct - 10:33

This is RUCK's supposed insider info squad:

England squad for Autumn Nations Series: (Predicted, squad to be confirmed this morning)

FORWARDS:

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears)
Trevor Davison (Newcastle Falcons)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Jack Kenningham (Harlequins)
George Martin (Leicester Tigers)
Callum Chick (Newcastle Falcons)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Lewis Ludlow (Gloucester Rugby)

BACKS:

Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Manu Tuilagi (Sale Sharks)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors)
Mark Atkinson (Gloucester)
Adam Radwan (Newcastle Falcons)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Max Malins (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath)

Ludlow would not be in my top 10 English flankers. No Ford?

Only three locks and Jones prefers one of them at 6, so I suspect that is incorrect.

Otherwise probably not far away, which is good for them.

by propdavid_london Mon 18 Oct - 10:37

I mean...Curry did OK covering no.8 when he was asked to do it last time.....But that was an injury crisis!
Currently there are specialist no.8s fit and in form.......lets hope the DM are messing with us.

by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct - 10:44

Ludlow? f**k. His performance against nothing teams reminded me of Harrison vs Australia. He had also been given the captain's band while Genge just took over all leadership responsibility. He might be a fine premiership player but he's not an international and there is too much competition (and too much potential coming through) to waste a slot on him.

I wasn't impressed by Furbank either.

by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct - 10:44

Just to add - no Underhill?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Oct - 10:48

He did ok in open play...but that scrum on 5m against France, ah man.

by Geordie Mon 18 Oct - 11:13

No Isiekwe...but Ewells in. Meh i dont get that one. Has Ewells got naked pictures of the coaches....

So we have 4 falcons in....wouldnt have picked that.

by propdavid_london Mon 18 Oct - 11:19

Agree, I have never understood what Ewells added to the team - great club player.
I've heard a Bath supporter say that he's one of those guys thats great to have around the squad and a solid/steady player.

I heard the same thing about Tim Payne when he kept getting in England squads - but was a pretty mediocre player

by propdavid_london Mon 18 Oct - 11:22

He even went on the 2009 Lions tour....

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Oct - 11:24

I like Ewels. Good player and good setpiece. Better than Hill imo. No actual squad released as yet though?

by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct - 11:30

No 7&1/2 wrote:I like Ewels. Good player and good setpiece. Better than Hill imo. No actual squad released as yet though?

1500 I have heard

by Geordie Mon 18 Oct - 11:33

Yeah...3pm.

Lets see if this leaked squad matches...

No Underhill but Kenningham in, would make me think this leaked squad is wrong.

by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct - 11:46

I see McCall is pushing George and Vunipola x2

I do think we need to move on from Billy unless he can make the kind of playing statement that got him selected in the first place. I think his brother's match day place is also under threat. Genge hasn't quite produced the full goods in internationals but he's an increasingly important player. Then it's a choice of Marler vs Mako

George should be back in regardless.

by Geordie Mon 18 Oct - 11:54

George will start if LCD is injured....

by Cumbrian Mon 18 Oct - 11:58

According to this squad Ludlow is apparently ahead of Underhill, Earl, Simmonds, Vunipola and Ludlum in the back-row pecking order? Not to mention guys like Ted Hill, Tom Willis or Ben Curry? I just don't get it.

by propdavid_london Mon 18 Oct - 12:26

George has looked fit and hungry for the last few games....would be a bit surprise if he wasnt in there.

This isnt the playing squad, so I still reckon it will be quite large to start with as its for the whole AI series.

Would expect its still going to be Mako, Marler and Genge on the LH, with Sinks, Will Stuart and one other TH (Heyes, Harry Williams etc.)

As much as we would like to see the new blood coming through, Eddie will still want results after a poor 6N.

by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct - 12:39

propdavid_london wrote:George has looked fit and hungry for the last few games....would be a bit surprise if he wasnt in there.

This isnt the playing squad, so I still reckon it will be quite large to start with as its for the whole AI series.

Would expect its still going to be Mako, Marler and Genge on the LH, with Sinks, Will Stuart and one other TH (Heyes, Harry Williams etc.)

As much as we would like to see the new blood coming through, Eddie will still want results after a poor 6N.

I think this should be a major driver for new blood to come through

by propdavid_london Mon 18 Oct - 12:43

I agree lost.....I just have a feeling that Eddie wont be too adventurous (particularly in the Front Row)

by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct - 12:58

propdavid_london wrote:I agree lost.....I just have a feeling that Eddie wont be too adventurous (particularly in the Front Row)

To be fair I think the front row is already pretty good, its just a question of evolution instead of revolution. Much of the pack is set in stone, at least as the wider squad goes. What will be most interesting is to see how parts of the squad change because the feeling that it must change is overwhelming. I think dropping this version of Billy is very possible and would be a big statement. I'd also drop Farrell for now but appreciate that would be too much of a step.

I am also beginning to wonder how much of a threat there is to May's place. Hard to shine for Gloucester right now, although he must have enough credit to make it into the wider squad.

by propdavid_london Mon 18 Oct - 13:24

Depend on how bad an injury Watson had on the weekend - Radwan looks to be an able replacement to May, although May has done nothing wrong and at times has been a standout player for England.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 18 Oct - 13:37

Perhaps they don't know the difference between Ludlow and Ludlam. Ludlow being a quint little town in Shropshire, Ludlow being a class rugby player. that is the only explanation I can think of that could put them in the same sentence.

Doesn't Radwan play at 14 for Falcons, I know wings are interchangeable but kicking wise it can make a big difference.

I agree Furbank was rubbish in his first few caps, but this year he is on fire and if there are only 2 flyhalfs in the squad, his adaptability could be useful, bit like Malins.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Oct - 13:37

May's not been electric but what's he actually done wrong in an England shirt recently? Even his nose is holding up. That said there are wingers who are pressing their claims, of course Radwan, but then Hassell-Collins (who is probably the nearest like for like?) and Lynagh as well. May for me is comfortably the better winger from his and Watson.

by Geordie Mon 18 Oct - 13:55

Any news on LCD's injury?

by Geordie Mon 18 Oct - 13:57

Just noticed, no Ted Hill in that squad either. Does that mean George Martin has overtaken him as the oversized bruising flanker...

by lostinwales Mon 18 Oct - 14:19

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just noticed, no Ted Hill in that squad either. Does that mean George Martin has overtaken him as the oversized bruising flanker...

Don't think trying to shoehorn Ted hill into the locks and then expecting him to shine worked out too well.

Not too long until we find out the truth.

by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct - 14:45

lostinwales wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Just noticed, no Ted Hill in that squad either. Does that mean George Martin has overtaken him as the oversized bruising flanker...

Don't think trying to shoehorn Ted hill into the locks and then expecting him to shine worked out too well.

Not too long until we find out the truth.

Hill's serving a 3 week ban at a bad time. That will have been the main influence I imagine.

He played one game at lock for Wuss in a dead rubber when they had a lot of injuries then covered it off the bench for England in low pressure friendlies when Itoje, Lawes, Kruis, Launchbury, Hill and Ribbans were all unavailable for various reasons. McNally started games in the summer!

I think the lock move has been overstated a bit to be honest. Just a case of Jones preferring to give game time to a flanker he thought would be in frame longer term rather than 8/9/10th choice locks who are solid Premiership performers.

by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct - 14:48

Worth saying on the Ruck.com 'insider info' that ruck is little more than a twitter page that started their own website. Their rumours around Premiership transfers that are apparently based on inside info are frequently laughable.

It could be the first time in a long time that they've actually had a reliable source on the something. I'd be pretty surprised though to be honest!

by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct - 15:01

The Times wrote:Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath).

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester).

by king_carlos Mon 18 Oct - 15:03

Wow. Nic Dolly but no Jamie George. Even as a Tigers fan that's baffling to me!

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