Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

Should we be there?

Well if you dont mind whats happening now and support sharia law then I guess not.

[superflyweight]

Picked up a dislike there, Ben. Wonder which "not a racist" poster took offence?

[beninho]

Must have a big fan if Orban on this site.

[dynamark]

I happen to think england players did well last night apart from the result they wound the fans up and gave them a bit back which they truly deserved.
Leicesters first game in the Europa cup is away against spartak moscow and on the same evening CSkA moscow play galatasary .That should be an interesting evening for any visitors.

[beninho]

The government seem to have go e to great lengths in claiming a new law on pet theft, when there is already a law on theft. People seem to be lapping it up. Very strange.

[pedro]

Good to see the Hungarian team get stuffed. What a horrible bunch of fans from a country with a horrible leader.

As per your analogy the game should have ended in a draw.

[super_realist]

The government seem to have go e to great lengths in claiming a new law on pet theft, when there is already a law on theft. People seem to  be lapping it up. Very strange.

For votes only.
Shame they dont take burglary, theft, GBH etc so seriously.

The British obsession with animals is a bit odd.

[JAS]

The government seem to have go e to great lengths in claiming a new law on pet theft, when there is already a law on theft. People seem to  be lapping it up. Very strange.

For votes only.
Shame they dont take burglary, theft, GBH etc so seriously.

The British obsession with animals is a bit odd.

Yay we agree on something, 2 things actually, a) the British obsession with animals, odd & b) they're only doing it for votes, odd that it's taken an example of animals for you to notice though. This shower do it on a whole range of issues....and they're very good at it. Of course the reality is that it'll run into issues in the implementation because in a low tax, low spend regime there simply won't be the resources to enforce it.

[super_realist]

The government seem to have go e to great lengths in claiming a new law on pet theft, when there is already a law on theft. People seem to  be lapping it up. Very strange.

For votes only.
Shame they dont take burglary, theft, GBH etc so seriously.

The British obsession with animals is a bit odd.

Yay we agree on something, 2 things actually, a) the British obsession with animals, odd & b) they're only doing it for votes, odd that it's taken an example of animals for you to notice though. This shower do it on a whole range of issues....and they're very good at it. Of course the reality is that it'll run into issues in the implementation because in a low tax, low spend regime there simply won't be the resources to enforce it.

Regardless of how you look at it or what your politics are, the Tories are only in power because of the catastrophic ineptitude of Labour to provide a serious opposition.

I think Keir Starmer is a decent man, but he's too boring and too much of a fence sitter whilst he hasn't been strong enough to kick out the far left loons from the party. He's had numerous open goals (as have all Labour leaders over the last 3 parliaments) and he's hit the corner flag every time.
I really can't see that the Tories have to try that hard to win another election and as someone who is centre right, I actually want a change, but it simply isn't going to come from Labour at the moment. Labour are dead unless they move back to centre left, everyone knows it.

[Duty281]

Of course the reality is that it'll run into issues in the implementation because in a low tax, low spend regime there simply won't be the resources to enforce it.

The Tories aren't operating a low tax, low spend regime. By 2025 the tax burden will be the highest in the UK since 1970, and the Tories are throwing money around like confetti (especially at the NHS).

[JAS]

Of course the reality is that it'll run into issues in the implementation because in a low tax, low spend regime there simply won't be the resources to enforce it.

The Tories aren't operating a low tax, low spend regime. By 2025 the tax burden will be the highest in the UK since 1970, and the Tories are throwing money around like confetti (especially at the NHS).

Their ethos is low tax low spend (that's why there are more than a few backbenchers foaming at the mouth at potential tax rises at the moment), the pandemic has pretty much blown that away temporarily though.

From your previous post, yes Starmer is a nice guy, very accomplished but yes very boring, very fence sitty as well. The big problem Labour has at the moment is that it simply doesn't know where it currently is, there are many saying move left and equally as many saying move right and they appear to be oddly neither, that's the problem when you try and fence sit in the centre ground, you appear rightly or wrongly to have absolutely zero conviction and that most definitely is where they are. The last time they were here (post Foot) Kinnock at least looked like a man with enough conviction to fight for what he believed to be right, Starmer appears like he doesn't want to fight, he wants to solve the problems with a cosy chat...that is NOT going to work.

[dynamark]

We need to talk social care ie. old folk being old and infirm (waiting for god?) Ben will confirm yer ethnic minorities have a general system of looking after their elderly in their families and homes wheras yer white british seem to think a home or a lot of home help may be the way.Some of the illness is self inflicted Im sure we all know very fit folk from golf in their 70s and 80s.Difficult one and probably a good few votes involved but if you and your employers have put in a ton of money over 40-50 years kind of expect to get some help.

[JAS]

We need to talk social care ie. old folk being old and infirm (waiting for god?) Ben will confirm yer ethnic minorities have a general system of looking after their elderly in their families and homes wheras yer white british seem to think a home or a lot of home help may be the way.Some of the illness is self inflicted Im sure we all know very fit folk from golf in their 70s and 80s.Difficult one and probably a good few votes involved but if you and your employers have put in a ton of money over 40-50 years kind of expect to get some help.

There’s a LOT of demands being placed on a basically empty pot Dyna and that’s one of them. They can’t all be addressed so tough choices have to be made. We need to replenish the pot which means either a bigger taxation take or further borrowing or both. Taxation take then becomes the contentious issue, everybody wants adequate provision of the basics in society but baulk at the thought of paying for it. We’ve had decades of both parties when in govt not being able or willing to increase the headline rate of tax for political reasons, insisting instead that they’re improving the economy which will naturally increase the overall tax take. If that was remotely true we wouldn’t be in the state we’re in now. Everything is threadbare, from the NHS to school budgets to police on the beat, Christ, even the armed forces. We need a significant mindset shift and I don’t mean we should all think more left. Govt in general needs to spend more money on keeping society civilised and progressive, that is the bottom line. The left will naturally say raise taxes and borrow if you have to, the right will say make the public sector more efficient so that the money we have stretches further. Well, we’ve supposedly had 11 years of that (although in reality we’ve had 42). So…how’s it working out with making the public sector more efficient? Have we made enough efficiencies to fund social care for example?

[super_realist]

You cant keep borrowing Jas. We've already burdened the next 3 generations with that debt.

By the way, the NHS is not threadbare, its just badly run. Per head of population the NHS recieves more than Australia, but Australia have better outcomes from their health service.
We need to stop treating the NHS like some untouchable religion. Its the sort of sickening sycophancy that Yanks have for their armed forces and its embarrassing the way we deify it. Its not the envy of the worldans never has been

[dynamark]

Slightly with super here the NHS will spend every pound it can get and ask for more as will the armed services,schools and the police. Im slightly against throwing a ton of cash at people who refuse to take personal responsibilty for their health .Govts job to split up the cake and set up the public services to be efficient .I have friend who own care homes which were run by local councils but very badly run hence now private.Key question is if you can afford it should you pay for your own care in old age.My mindset has always to be self reliant but then Im not anticipating being so sick I cannot at least exist with a minimum help.

[beninho]

Omar from the wire died , Michael k Williams. Has anyone watched the wire? It's phenomenal.

[super_realist]

Never seen it Ben. Heard it's good but doesnt it have that plank Dominic West in it?

[superflyweight]

Omar from the wire died , Michael k Williams. Has anyone watched the wire? It's phenomenal.

It's exceptional and his character, Omar is one of the many great things about it. Really takes time to grow into itself over the first two series and then the third and fourth series are incredible. The fifth went off the rails a little but pulled it all together at the end.

[beninho]

Dominic West is in the wire, and he is brilliant, I've read he nails a baltimore accent. Iris Elba aswell, I saw he, and I think West auditioned and they didn't realise they weren't Anerican.

If you are stuck for something and can get through 5 box sets it's well worth a watch.

Sheeeeeeeeit

[JAS]

You cant keep borrowing Jas. We've already burdened the next 3 generations with that debt.

By the way, the NHS is not threadbare, its just badly run. Per head of population the NHS recieves more than Australia, but Australia have better outcomes from their health service.
We need to stop treating the NHS like some untouchable religion. Its the sort of sickening sycophancy that Yanks have for their armed forces and its embarrassing the way we deify it. Its not the envy of the worldans never has been

Why can’t you keep borrowing?? of course you can if your underlying economy is fine (check Japans borrowing levels). If you think we can’t you either think our economy is a potential basket case or you you don’t understand “borrowing”

Government borrowing as well as taxation basics needs to be aired much more openly and honestly than it currently is.

I get Dynas, point about self reliance and indeed I agree we should all strive to be as self reliant as we can and take personal responsibility for our own health.

I’ve also worked in the public and private sector and I also see that point about public sector organisations performing poorly, they do and they need bloody sorted, there’s way too many protectionist jobsworths in the public sector, it’ll take a huge cultural shift to change that but change it must but I’d also suggest that outsourcing to the private sector aint the way to do it, that’s just a quicker way of burning the limited cash.

[super_realist]

Depends if you think interest rates are going to continue to be as low as this doesnt it?

[pedro]

If the inflation is higher than the interest rates, it’s not such a bad idea to borrow.

[beninho]

There is no way Labour should support this nonsense NI increase. Which seems to be pretty badly thought out. Let's see if they do.

[dynamark]

Ben labour can vote how they like it will still sail through.Its a tax increase for sure but bearing in mind the last couple of years to be expected unfortunately.Main thing now is to spend wisely

[beninho]

Itoje and Rashford , all look the same dont they?

[JAS]

Ben labour can vote how they like it will still sail through.Its a tax increase for sure but bearing in mind the last couple of years to be expected unfortunately.Main thing now is to spend wisely

Have to say Ben, like Dyna says or implies, how Labour vote here is completely irrelevant, with an 80 seat majority it’ll sail through.

Many of the people that will get stung hardest will have voted Tory so they only have themselves to blame.

We can all speculate whether or not Labour would have done any better. Way too many layers of issues and policy aspirations and commitments to make that a simple binary answer. In fairness to Johnson, Tory PM committing to tax rises (or NI rises) is a bold move that would only ever be undertaken if they really felt it was in the best interests of the country’s finances.

What I would like to see in future is political parties being able to be more open and honest about taxation. Raising taxes is a vote loser period, it shouldn’t be but we’ve been fed that narrative for years that cutting taxes benefits everybody, it doesn’t, it really really doesnt, unless you’re some kind of person that loves bumping along potholed roads to drop your kids off at the school with the leaky roof, hoping you don’t get mugged at the drop off point by some angry unemployed guy desperate to feed his family (or his drug habit). If the worst did happen at least you could call the police, who might take days to turn up because there’s so few of them. Yep low tax low spend economy is bloody marvellous, a majority love it so much they’ll keep voting for it over and over again…amazing!!
Given that Blair was basically a neoliberal elite himself who pretended to have a social conscience and wore a red tie, we’ve basically had 42 years of neoliberal “prosperity” how’s that working out for all but the top 10% of the income and wealth distribution??

[Soul Requiem]

What I would like to see in future is political parties being able to be more open and honest about taxation. Raising taxes is a vote loser period, it shouldn’t be but we’ve been fed that narrative for years that cutting taxes benefits everybody, it doesn’t, it really really doesnt, unless you’re some kind of person that loves bumping along potholed roads to drop your kids off at the school with the leaky roof, hoping you don’t get mugged at the drop off point by some angry unemployed  guy desperate to feed his family (or his drug habit). If the worst did happen at least you could call the police, who might take days to turn up because there’s so few of them. Yep low tax low spend economy is bloody marvellous, a majority love it so much they’ll keep voting for it over and over again…amazing!!
Given that Blair was basically a neoliberal elite himself who pretended to have a social conscience and wore a red tie, we’ve basically had 42 years of neoliberal “prosperity” how’s that working out for all but the top 10% of the income and wealth distribution??

Presumably not that badly hence the 42 years of neoliberalism. This assumption that people have been conned into voting the way they have for decades is absurd and screams of self importance, almost as if those shouting know best when you do not. I'm not in the top 10% but nor am I particularly poor, I am personally better off under a Tory government than I would be under a Labour one. My first priority is doing best by myself and my family, if that doesn't align with doing what's best for the bottom 20% then so be it unfortunately. Just drop the holier than thou I know best regurgitation.

[JAS]

You’ll have to explain how it screams of self importance, I’ve tried to read the post back objectively and I can’t see it, I guess it (figuratively) pokes your view in the eye a little bit because you don’t see things the same way so rather than put forward an alternative narrative you resort to calling it absurd and self important, I’ll take that as a compliment.

Just out of interest where do you think the top 10% extends down to? And where for that matter do you think the bottom 20% line is? (not sure why you mention the bottom 20% as they will be mostly disenfranchised and many of them not even on the electoral role), The ones I’d like to try and understand are the ones in between.

[Soul Requiem]

You’ll have to explain how it screams of self importance, I’ve tried to read the post back objectively and I can’t see it, I guess it (figuratively) pokes your view in the eye a little bit because you don’t see things the same way so rather than put forward an alternative narrative you resort to calling it absurd and self important, I’ll take that as a compliment.

Just out of interest where do you think the top 10% extends down to? And where for that matter do you think the bottom 20% line is? (not sure why you mention the bottom 20% as they will be mostly disenfranchised and many of them not even on the electoral role), The ones I’d like to try and understand are the ones in between.

It's just the usual if you don't vote my way you've been conned rubbish that you repeat ad nauseam, it's boring. The self importance comes from your own inflated views of your own opinions. My view is that social care issues do not apply to the mega rich and are born in no small part due to the poor life choices of the poorer collective, due to that they should bear the burden of funding it, not a popular opinion granted. It's not a difficult conundrum, live healthier and the burden on the healthcare system decreases but selfishness and reliance on others means that isn't very likely.

My use of the top 10% is indeed erroneous, that should read 5%, i'm comfortably within the top 10% in fairness.

[super_realist]

You’ll have to explain how it screams of self importance, I’ve tried to read the post back objectively and I can’t see it, I guess it (figuratively) pokes your view in the eye a little bit because you don’t see things the same way so rather than put forward an alternative narrative you resort to calling it absurd and self important, I’ll take that as a compliment.

Just out of interest where do you think the top 10% extends down to? And where for that matter do you think the bottom 20% line is? (not sure why you mention the bottom 20% as they will be mostly disenfranchised and many of them not even on the electoral role), The ones I’d like to try and understand are the ones in between.

It's just the usual if you don't vote my way you've been conned rubbish that you repeat ad nauseam, it's boring. The self importance comes from your own inflated views of your own opinions. My view is that social care issues do not apply to the mega rich and are born in no small part due to the poor life choices of the poorer collective, due to that they should bear the burden of funding it, not a popular opinion granted. It's not a difficult conundrum, live healthier and the burden on the healthcare system decreases but selfishness and reliance on others means that isn't very likely.

My use of the top 10% is indeed erroneous, that should read 5%, i'm comfortably within the top 10% in fairness.

Something like 20% of NHS funds goes to treating idle, greedy, fat Diabetic Type 2 people which is something which is almost entirely preventable, so when your relatives are dying waiting for cancer treatment, bear that in mind.

At best i see a case for increasing NHS funding to account for increased longevity, but what the left dont seem to realise is that there is not just two health models ie the NHS and America. There is every European system that performs better than the NHS such as France, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Netherlands etc. Some of our results are comparable with Slovenia for goodness sake. The NHS is not a sacred cow. It needs reform, not more money thrown at it to disappear into a  beauracracy of mismanagement. It gets 200bn already and most health care systems around the world get better results from less money per head.

If the NHS was such a great model, then why has no one else adopted it?

As for the top 10%, id be amazed if anyone in this golf forum is below the top 10%

[beninho]

Saw sonething the other day, about the last election which was deemed as a battle against the communist guy.

Yet, here we are with food shortages and having to show your papers on demand.

[super_realist]

Itoje and Rashford , all look the same dont they?

What a ridiculous statement.
Clearly this is not a racism issue as there has never been a refrain that black people "all look the same"
There have actually been many psychological studies done about why people see specific ethicities as looking similar and none of it was ever found to be down to racism, its to do with familiarity.
The chinese see white Europeans as all "looking the same" because they dont see us every day in significant numbers. Its perfectly normal in thise circumstances.

This is simply a case of Williamson being an ignorant , uninformed oaf and nothing to do with racism. Fortunately neither Rashford or Itoje jumped on the same race baiting bandwagon as you and saw the funny side.

[super_realist]

Saw sonething the other day, about the last election which was deemed as a battle against the communist guy.

Yet, here we are with food shortages and having to show your papers on demand.

Backed by Labour

Whats the point in them anyway? If vaccines dont prevent spread then is oroof of vaccination required at mass gatherings?

If you havent had a vaccine yet through your own choice then tough. Anyone hiding behind religion or culture as a reason for not having one should have no grounds for complaint if they get covid.

[JAS]

Saw sonething the other day, about the last election which was deemed as a battle against the communist guy.

Yet, here we are with food shortages and having to show your papers on demand.

If you havent had a vaccine yet through your own choice then tough. Anyone hiding behind religion or culture as a reason for not having one should have no grounds for complaint if they get covid.

Yep, I’d say tough too, unfortunately the potential knock on effect of the Diligaf anti-vax brigade is their capacity to spread it so if we give up any and all attempts at trying to reduce infection spread then the elderly and clinically vulnerable become progressively more vulnerable again as the vaccine protection begins to wane. Our infection numbers are way too high and leaving us much more vulnerable to a vaccine resistant variant developing. If that happens then we really are in deep Poopie.

[beninho]

The anti vaxxers in this country are mental. I didn't know we had so many morons. Like the crazy covid deniers.

[beninho]

If Patel thinks they can turn back boats legally, I would love to see the advice received. Bey it's full of could and maybes.

[JAS]

If Patel thinks they can turn back boats legally, I would love to see the advice received.  Bey it's full of could and maybes.  

Must admit I do feel myself veering righter by the day, well not really but it in some ways I can understand her frustration, we appear to be giving France money to drastically reduce this issue from their side. However it “appears” that that approach isn’t working as intended. Always suspicious about how these things are reported though as both the Govt (of whatever flavour) and the media know what an emotive subject immigration is, be it legal, illegal and concerning economic migrants or asylum seekers, the net result is the same in terms of triggering an anti-immigration response from many.

[beninho]

Emma Raducanu, wow!

[super_realist]

Good to see a tennis player do her job without moaning about her "mental health"
If she wins, that's SPOTY in the bag.

[super_realist]

If Patel thinks they can turn back boats legally, I would love to see the advice received.  Bey it's full of could and maybes.  

Whats your expertise in maritime law? You do realise that it is not a legal means to enter a country?
Im sick of hearing that these people are escaping horrible situations. France really is not so bad that you to pay a human traffiker to get you over the channel.

The reason for coming to Britain will be mostly economic as we are such a soft touch.
Im all for legal and managed migration, especially of people who bring skills and experience to the country and also to benefit our gene pool, but we dont need economic migrants pretending to be asylum seekers.
Taking the Danish or Australian line wouldnt be a bad thing.

[JAS]

Emma Raducanu, wow!

Crikey I thought she made a bit of an impact at Wimbers in the summer but this dwarfs it. Astonishing rise through the rankings. Hope she can take that final step at the weekend. Nailed on SPOTY??

[beninho]

If Patel thinks they can turn back boats legally, I would love to see the advice received.  Bey it's full of could and maybes.  

Whats your expertise in maritime law? You do realise that it is not a legal means to enter a country?
Im sick of hearing that these people are escaping horrible situations. France really is not so bad that you to pay a human traffiker to get you over the channel.

The reason for coming to Britain will be mostly economic as we are such a soft touch.
Im all for legal and managed migration, especially of people who bring skills and experience to the country and also to benefit our gene pool, but we dont need economic migrants pretending to be asylum seekers.
Taking the Danish or Australian line wouldnt be a bad thing.

Its why I'd like to see the legal advice, this is more then maritime law, its into human rights etc. As we already know, you cant claim asylum without being in the country. So, its not illegal to get into a country to make an asylum claim. Unless we will be setting up asylum workers on boats in the sea, I don't think it will be legal to just turn people back.

Now, if people are here, and don't claim asylum, they are just illegal immigrants, they can't claim benefits, or housing or even medical treatment so, im unsure what they frothing would be about them being here. They can only claim anything if deemed as asylum seekers, and therefore here genuinely.

[super_realist]

Ben, if someone flies into the UK without the proper authority, visa, passport etc they are returned to their point of origin.
Why do you object to doing this at sea?

You are only deemed an asylum seeker if your claim for asylum is assessed and approved, not just because they say they are asylum seekers. Sadly it seems the UK border force arent sufficiently skeptical about these claims and the overwhelming majority of these claims are approved without the need for any oresentation of papers or evidence and these economic migrants know this. If this wasnt the case, why on earth wohldnt you just stay in Germany, Austria, France, Belgium etc, and please dont suggest because they "support an English football team" again.

If you had the choice of any country in Europe, wjy oj earth woyld you choose Britain unless it was because we are such a soft touch

[beninho]

Ben, if someone flies into the UK without the proper authority, visa, passport etc they are returned to their point of origin.
Why do you object to doing this at sea?

You are only deemed an asylum seeker if your claim for asylum is assessed and approved, not just because they say they are asylum seekers. Sadly it seems the UK border force arent sufficiently skeptical about these claims and the overwhelming majority of these claims are approved without the need for any oresentation of papers or evidence and these economic migrants know this. If this wasnt the case, why on earth wohldnt you just stay in Germany, Austria, France, Belgium etc, and please dont suggest because they "support an English football team" again.

If you had the choice of any country in Europe, wjy oj earth woyld you choose Britain unless it was because we are such a soft touch

You are an asylum seeker if you claim asylum until the decision is made obe way or the other. Once approved you are not an asylum seeker you are just someone with status in the uk.

There's many reasons why people want to cone to the UK. I doubt its the £36pw they get or the benefits available if successful,, which are lower then most other countries.

I get you don't like asylum seekers though.

[beninho]

I will just add that I've seen lots of information on claimed asylum cases, I've not dealt with any that look remotely dodgy.

[JAS]

Ben, if someone flies into the UK without the proper authority, visa, passport etc they are returned to their point of origin.
Why do you object to doing this at sea?

You are only deemed an asylum seeker if your claim for asylum is assessed and approved, not just because they say they are asylum seekers. Sadly it seems the UK border force arent sufficiently skeptical about these claims and the overwhelming majority of these claims are approved without the need for any oresentation of papers or evidence and these economic migrants know this. If this wasnt the case, why on earth wohldnt you just stay in Germany, Austria, France, Belgium etc, and please dont suggest because they "support an English football team" again.

If you had the choice of any country in Europe, wjy oj earth woyld you choose Britain unless it was because we are such a soft touch

A lot more difficult to get on a plane without security checks than a dingy.

I agree on the “Why on earth would a migrant choose Britain?” sentiment. Unless of course the migrant camps have streaming continuous old Tory ppb’s telling them how wonderful we are here and how things are going to get even better over the next few years. Oops wait, not allowed to say stuff like that, it would be absurd and self important to suggest the migrants had been conned into believing this place was better than it actually is.

[dynamark]

Raducanu may be SPOTY teenager but that will surely get her a contract with Clearasil.God Id love to be her agent about now just imagine the incoming e mails.
Ben food shortages are not by any stretch happening and I have yet to show my papers anywhere .May take my vaccine cert to the footy tomorrow but happy to do so.You are a great poster to this little forum but seem to have little faith in our ability to survive any setbacks

[pedro]

If you had the choice of any country in Europe, wjy oj earth woyld you choose Britain unless it was because we are such a soft touch

I tell you why. Britain is a multi cultural society and English is the official language. But I bet you the immigrants from old French colonies prefer to stay in France tho.

[beninho]

The vast majority of asylum seekers don't choose Britain, with Germany, Spain, France, Greece and Italy having more accepted cases. Aswell as Turkey which along with Germany is in the top 10 countries in the world for displaced refugees

It looks like the UK had less applications then the above countries actually accepted cases.

So, basically, people probably take the risks to be in England for various reasons, but I highly doubt its because we are a soft touch.

[beninho]

Emma Raducanu. Wow wow wow. First tennis match I've watched in full for ages. It was brilliant.

[Soul Requiem]

Bloody incredible Ben, she's based not far from me.

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