Re: Dragons Season Thread 21/22

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

James Benjamin has been turned into a hooker! We do have too many back rowers so this might be good for him from a personal point of view in terms of getting game time, but will be interesting to see if he's able to become a top level player in that position.

https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/19540310.james-benjamin-moves-flanker-hooker-dragons/

[LordDowlais]

But for ‘regions’ see the old districts. We’ve had them for donkeys years, we’ve had East and West Wales stuff too, so I’m not sure they really needed a new way to divide the country into 5 (now 4) for admin purposes.

I've always said this, why didn't they just use the districts ? But I get countered with people saying the money men who were running the clubs from the outset didn't want to go down this route, and the WRU needed them so thats where we are.

Looks as though, hook or by crook, we are going to go back to the original clubs names before long, Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli and Swansea. 20 years wasted.

[Welshmushroom]

Its also the main concern the WRU have with the Regions.....because even if they finance them better, they dont get any input on how it is spent and if the regions have shown us anything it's they havent been great at managing their spends.  Even if the WRU gave each region 10 million a season we probably still wouldn't see success because the people who are managing those franchises have no experience in managing top clubs.

Its why I maintain the best investment will always start with a astute clever manager who knows how to build and spend a budget.  Sadly its the primary area the regions have always under invested and that then results in poor spends on budgets.

I’d disagree with that.  Just off the top of my head Dean Richards Ryan (!) has a lot of experience of managing budgets and managing top clubs.  He’s been DoR at a few places, been in the English RFU system too.  In an ideal world who would have that sort of experience?  Are you talking about people who’ve been at clubs further up the leagues?  Like top 5 England and France? Or people from other sports?

I'm not saying some of the Regions havent learned a lesson. Dean Ryan, Toby Booth and Dai Young are seasoned managers at this point. Peel however lacks top level experience given the quality of player he has been entrusted with.

I was referencing past managers mostly. If you look at the history of appointments over the past 10 years there were a bucket load of guys whos first experience of pro rugby at any league level was in wales. That simply wouldnt happen with any of the Irish provinces or New Zealand for example.

Granted they seem to have learned the lesson currently but we will see given further time but I don't think the historical appointments can be disputed even by the most ardent fan.

[Guest]

James Benjamin has been turned into a hooker!  We do have too many back rowers so this might be good for him from a personal point of view in terms of getting game time, but will be interesting to see if he's able to become a top level player in that position.  

https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/19540310.james-benjamin-moves-flanker-hooker-dragons/

And now he’s been offloaded to Cornish Pirates to develop as a hooker!

https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/19582733.cornish-pirates-sign-dragons-hooker-james-benjamin-loan/

[RiscaGame]

Think this is a good move.

Dragons need to have three hookers (when fit). For me it would be Dee, Shipp and Hibs. Benjamin won’t develop into a hooker without playing and we all know the Welsh Prem isn’t good enough to develop players!!

[RiscaGame]

No Brown or Dee Sunday. I think it was expected anyway. Can’t wait to see the side picked tomorrow. Rhodri is available, which is great.

[PhilBB]

But for ‘regions’ see the old districts. We’ve had them for donkeys years, we’ve had East and West Wales stuff too, so I’m not sure they really needed a new way to divide the country into 5 (now 4) for admin purposes.

I've always said this, why didn't they just use the districts ? But I get countered with people saying the money men who were running the clubs from the outset didn't want to go down this route, and the WRU needed them so thats where we are.

Looks as though, hook or by crook, we are going to go back to the original clubs names before long, Cardiff, Newport, Llanelli and Swansea. 20 years wasted.

The WRU, in 2003, described a 'region' as 'covering 1 or more WRU districts'

[PhilBB]

One interesting snippet from the latest WRU Annual Report is that the Dragons cost it £7.9m last year, up from £7.1m. We know these alleged costs are bull, of course.

The Dragons increased the number of their employees during Covid whilst the others were losing staff.

The idea that Wales can't have three teams because of the need to enter four into competitions is put on shaky ground by the competition income being £2m whilst the cost of the team is four times that.

[Guest]

3 is just an odd number, literally. 4 is better.

[LordDowlais]

Or go down to 3 and put Cardiff with Newport, and play all the games at Rodney Parade whilst the team is playing in black and amber hooped jerseys.

[PhilBB]

3 is just an odd number, literally.  4 is better.

Sure, but the fourth in Wales is the national team.

Wales doesn't have enough money nor talent (presently in Wales) for 4 teams. Spending £8m on one team but £6m combined on the other three just underlines this.

[mikey_dragon]

Not sure why we persist with Lewis at 15, it's probable we're easing Ioan Davies in. Lewis Jones wasn't rated well among Cardiff fans, so this will be interesting.

Dragons: Josh Lewis; Jonah Holmes, Jack Dixon, Aneurin Owen, Jordan Olowofela; Sam Davies, Lewis Jones; Aki Seiuli, Ellis Shipp, Mesake Doge, Will Rowlands, Ben Carter, Ross Moriarty (capt), Ollie Griffiths, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Richard Hibbard, Greg Bateman, Chris Coleman, Joe Maksymiw, Taine Basham, Rhodri Williams, Jamie Roberts, Ioan Davies.

Ospreys: Dan Evans; Mat Protheroe, Michael Collins, Owen Watkin, Luke Morgan; Gareth Anscombe, Rhys Webb (capt); Nicky Smith, Sam Parry, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Rhys Davies, Will Griffiths, Jac Morgan, Morgan Morris.

Replacements: Elvis Taione, Rhodri Jones, Tom Botha, Adam Beard, Ethan Roots, Reuben Morgan Williams, Josh Thomas, Tiaan Thomas-Wheeler.

[RiscaGame]

Pack not bad. Backs I think he has wrong too. I’d have started Williams, Doc and Davies.

Ospreys side is very strong. Forget how good a side they can put out sometimes. Great to see Anscombe starting though.

[Welshmushroom]

Yeah Josh lacks pace at 15. Would have thought it would have made more sense to have pace at 15. Then again he might be using Lewis's kicking game to take advantage of the new 50/22 rule.

Its a tough opener for us. That said I would like to think that pack will give us parity at least. Then it will come down how good we are taking our chances. I suppose the one upside is that I'd rather catch Ospreys now than when all the internationals are back to full fitness.

[RiscaGame]

Funnily enough, I was just talking to my mate and we were on about how AWJ etc were missing. So it is a good point, that it’s not the worst time to play them.

I benefitted from a 50/22 yesterday, so would be great if Dragons do too.

[Welshmushroom]

I think Dean was spot on saying our game management needs some work. We really did well in the first half and just had a 20 minute period we dropped off quite badly. Our pack was very good though. Also though Sam Davies played really well. Wales have to be looking at him for the Autumn. They really need to leave Anscombe alone as throwing him into that Autumn schedule would be nuts. There is nothing to be gained to risking him after such a long lay off.

What's clear to me is we really just lacking that extra 1 or 2 quality players in the backline. But then again there were a few guys not involved that I rate.

Good game though and I think everyone upped their game on the opening weekend of the URC. Will be a great tournament if it keeps this up.

[formerly known as Sam]

How did Owolfela get on for you?

[Welshmushroom]

He didn't do to bad considering all things - looks like he has got a lot of gas.

We didn't use him as much though but hopefully as the season progresses he gets a bit more ball in hand to run at space as the few touches he gets he really looks a threat.

To be fair it was a derby match and those always turn into arm wrestles.

[mikey_dragon]

Wasn't a great day for Owolfela and whilst he is decent, based on that he isn't better than Holmes, Dyer or Hewitt. There's also Jordan Williams and Ioan Davies to consider. Based on this game we are really lacking in back-up halfbacks (Lewis Jones looked like Knoyle Mark II), Sam Davies was good. We are also lacking in midfield. Dixon continues to slide for me. I would probably keep Owen focused on the 13 jersey.

Rowlands and the back-row were good. Hopefully this can be Ollie Griffiths' year. Pivac et al should really be looking at him and Basham for the Wales 7 jersey if Tips is out and Navidi is playing across the back-row.
I suppose he will ignore them and go for Ellis Jenkins who didn't look sharp enough, and Jac Morgan - good player but not as good as Griffiths or Basham yet.

[Welshmushroom]

Holmes to be fair is on form the last 12 months one of the best in the league. Rumours are he is off after this season to one of the other regions.

Hewitt is also better but Dyer really hasn't played enough at this level on a regular basis to be proven yet. He does have potential though.

I actually like Rosser when he's on the wing for us. Always has a lot of spark when he gets the ball.

I really don't think Dixon can play 13. Hopefully if Allen does come back and assuming he still has his pace he may be a good option to get the ball wider to our wings. I hope Owen goes back to 13 in the meantime and Roberts comes back in at 12. I think we will do better with that setup.

[Welshmushroom]

I didn't think Doge was to bad but were missing Brown badly at the moment. Not because Doge played badly but if the league has shown us anything in order to really be competitive you need 2 good impact props as they can't usually go a full 80 in the set piece.

Couple that with Dee coming back into the lineup and our front 8 with the bench forwards should be competitive against most teams. We just are lacking a little bit of polish in the backline.

[RiscaGame]

Wouldn’t be surprised to see Holmes leave, but hadn’t seen rumours. I like Rosser too.

Be interesting how Ryan lines us up next weekend, in particular the backs. He talks about Leinster presenting different threats, so he’ll likely change his backline anyway.

Still very disappointed by that second half. I did think we had a pretty decent bench too, aside from people like Brown being missing. So when we have a lead at halftime and with what should’ve been a bit of a lift from the supporters when the teams come back out, it’s a let down.

[mikey_dragon]

Interesting if Holmes is off to another region. He's been in great form the last 12 months as you say, but that didn't stop clueless Pivac unceremoniously dropping him for Average Rogers, who I thought was poor in both games he started. Would be funny and unsurprising if Holmes moves to Ospreys and suddenly he's improved his game massively... Welsh rugby is going down, thanks WRU.

[formerly known as Sam]

Holmes is a very intelligent winger, reads the game very well so seems to have a knack of being in the right place at the right time in attack and defence.

[PhilBB]

Interesting if Holmes is off to another region. He's been in great form the last 12 months as you say, but that didn't stop clueless Pivac unceremoniously dropping him for Average Rogers, who I thought was poor in both games he started. Would be funny and unsurprising if Holmes moves to Ospreys and suddenly he's improved his game massively... Welsh rugby is going down, thanks WRU.

Are we sure that Holmes leaving wouldn't be because of budget issues?

[mikey_dragon]

Interesting if Holmes is off to another region. He's been in great form the last 12 months as you say, but that didn't stop clueless Pivac unceremoniously dropping him for Average Rogers, who I thought was poor in both games he started. Would be funny and unsurprising if Holmes moves to Ospreys and suddenly he's improved his game massively... Welsh rugby is going down, thanks WRU.

Are we sure that Holmes leaving wouldn't be because of budget issues?

I'm not sure or certain if there are budget issues with us, but that is sort of what I was referring to with the WRU. Their wish is for two pro teams. They've already damaged the game at amateur levels, the pro academies are underperforming, and now they are targeting the very top flight. They'll sooner do all of this rather than resign or take a pay cut, everyone but them sees that they are not fit for purpose.

[PhilBB]

Interesting if Holmes is off to another region. He's been in great form the last 12 months as you say, but that didn't stop clueless Pivac unceremoniously dropping him for Average Rogers, who I thought was poor in both games he started. Would be funny and unsurprising if Holmes moves to Ospreys and suddenly he's improved his game massively... Welsh rugby is going down, thanks WRU.

Are we sure that Holmes leaving wouldn't be because of budget issues?

I'm not sure or certain if there are budget issues with us, but that is sort of what I was referring to with the WRU. Their wish is for two pro teams. They've already damaged the game at amateur levels, the pro academies are underperforming, and now they are targeting the very top flight. They'll sooner do all of this rather than resign or take a pay cut, everyone but them sees that they are not fit for purpose.  

I don't recognise any of that.

This WRU has overspent on the amateur game, especially during Covid, so I'm not sure why you think they have damaged the game.

I've no idea of the metric you're using to claim the academies are underperforming, either.

And the Executive all took a pay cut during Covid and many of them left.

Sure, they are not fit for purpose but there's a genuine argument that states it's only their incompetency that has allowed the Dragons to exist.

The Dragons cost the WRU £8m in order for them to generate £2m in competition revenues.

I'd love to know the basis for your claim on the hobby game and the academies.

[LordDowlais]

I've no idea of the metric you're using to claim the academies are underperforming, either.

Theres more evidence to show the academies are working, than not.

[mikey_dragon]

I've no idea of the metric you're using to claim the academies are underperforming, either.

Theres more evidence to show the academies are working, than not.

Their results and the fact we bring in Kiwi's to our midfield. You two can keep burying your heads in the sand though if you like.

[PhilBB]

I've no idea of the metric you're using to claim the academies are underperforming, either.

Theres more evidence to show the academies are working, than not.

Their results and the fact we bring in Kiwi's to our midfield. You two can keep burying your heads in the sand though if you like.

What results are you looking at in particular?

I guess Bundee Aki means that the Irish academies are also failing? As does Gibson-Park? As does Lowe? And I can't imagine how you view the Scots....

[LordDowlais]

I've no idea of the metric you're using to claim the academies are underperforming, either.

Theres more evidence to show the academies are working, than not.

Their results and the fact we bring in Kiwi's to our midfield. You two can keep burying your heads in the sand though if you like.

Whilst you conveniently ignore players like John Davies, Owen Watkin, Scott Williams, George North, who have all come through the academies and have gone on to represent Wales in the center, plus numerous other Welsh centers at the regions who are either not good enough, but are good regional players like Adam Warren, Tyler Morgan ect.. or players who are not ready to play for Wales yet.

[PhilBB]

I'm still interested in which Academy results have convinced Mikey that the Academies aren't working.

Any chance of posting a couple, Mikey?

[mikey_dragon]

The Wales U20 results, pick any year.

[mikey_dragon]

I've no idea of the metric you're using to claim the academies are underperforming, either.

Theres more evidence to show the academies are working, than not.

Their results and the fact we bring in Kiwi's to our midfield. You two can keep burying your heads in the sand though if you like.

Whilst you conveniently ignore players like John Davies, Owen Watkin, Scott Williams, George North, who have all come through the academies and have gone on to represent Wales in the center, plus numerous other Welsh centers at the regions who are either not good enough, but are good regional players like Adam Warren, Tyler Morgan ect.. or players who are not ready to play for Wales yet.

Are you trying to be Phill Mark II? Watkin hasn't kicked on, neither did Warren or Morgan. Scott Williams and Foxy look almost ready for retirement, but of course they could prove me wrong. The lock and centre crisis has been well documented for years now, so I don't know why you are just listing our centres? We don't have enough quality locks or centres compared to other nations, front row either.

[mikey_dragon]

I guess Bundee Aki means that the Irish academies are also failing? As does Gibson-Park? As does Lowe? And I can't imagine how you view the Scots....

It doesn't matter how I view them (Scots or Irish), as it doesn't alleviate our issues here in Welsh rugby. Another silly point.

[PhilBB]

The Wales U20 results, pick any year.

Ah, I see your mistake.

Often the best players from that age grade aren't selected to play in those games and those who are selected are often a year young.

[PhilBB]

I guess Bundee Aki means that the Irish academies are also failing? As does Gibson-Park? As does Lowe? And I can't imagine how you view the Scots....

It doesn't matter how I view them (Scots or Irish), as it doesn't alleviate our issues here in Welsh rugby. Another silly point.

Ah, I see your mistake.

No academy system will be perfect in producing top players into every position on a rolling cycle where there are competing sports for the young talent.

Therefore, your yardstick is ludicrous.

[LordDowlais]

The Wales U20 results, pick any year.

Well we need to blame the English academies as well, and in particular Exeter where we have a few.

We will let the coaches off scott free though.

[mikey_dragon]

The Wales U20 results, pick any year.

Ah, I see your mistake.

Often the best players from that age grade aren't selected to play in those games and those who are selected are often a year young.

Oh is that just your opinion? I mean i actually backed my point up with data IE fact.

[mikey_dragon]

I guess Bundee Aki means that the Irish academies are also failing? As does Gibson-Park? As does Lowe? And I can't imagine how you view the Scots....

It doesn't matter how I view them (Scots or Irish), as it doesn't alleviate our issues here in Welsh rugby. Another silly point.

Ah, I see your mistake.

No academy system will be perfect in producing top players into every position on a rolling cycle where there are competing sports for the young talent.

Therefore, your yardstick is ludicrous.

See my reply above, as it’s applicable here. No doubt you’ll come out with something stupid again though.

Most of your comments are ludicrous.

[PhilBB]

The Wales U20 results, pick any year.

Ah, I see your mistake.

Often the best players from that age grade aren't selected to play in those games and those who are selected are often a year young.

Oh is that just your opinion? I mean i actually backed my point up with data IE fact.

No, it's very well known that u20 eligible players don't play in the 6N if they are involved with their employers.

[PhilBB]

See my reply above, as it’s applicable here. No doubt you’ll come out with something stupid again though.

Most of your comments are ludicrous.

If they were ludicrous, you'd be able to successfully argue against them.

What you note here is that the Welsh regional academies are 'failing' because Halaholo has played for Wales. Therefore, if that's your yardstick, you must note the academies in Ireland and Scotland are doing equally as poorly as they have their own "Halaholo". Are you following this logic so far?

[RiscaGame]

Director of rugby Dean Ryan makes six changes to the XV that was beaten 7-6 by Leinster in Newport on Sunday.

Rhodri Williams returns at scrum-half and Jordan Williams gets the nod at full-back while there are four changes up front with Wales flanker Ross Moriarty out with a knock that should only keep him out for one week.

Harrison Keddie replaces him at blindside and captains the side while Taine Basham starts at openside, with Ollie Griffiths passing his head injury protocols to be on the bench.

Lock Joe Maksymiw will call the lineout against his former side and Greg Bateman starts at loosehead.

Connacht make three changes to their side that hammered the Bulls 34-7 with starts for loosehead Matthew Burke, number eight Paul Boyle and wing Ben O'Donnell.

The hosts will be driven around the Sportsground by the experienced and lively half-back partnership of Ireland internationals Kieran Marmion and Jack Carty.

Connacht: T O'Halloran; B O'Donnell, T Farrell, T Daly, M Hansen; J Carty, K Marmion; M Burke, D Heffernan, F Bealham, O Dowling, U Dillane, C Predergast, J Butler (captain, P Boyle.
Replacements: S Delahunt, J Duggan, J Aungier, L Fifita, C Oliver, C Blade, C Fitzgerald, S Arnold.

Dragons: J Williams; J Holmes, J Dixon, A Owen, J Olowofela; S Davies, R Williams; G Bateman, E Dee, M Doge, W Rowlands, J Maksymiw, H Keddie (captain), T Basham, A Wainwright.

Replacements: T Davies, A Seiuli, C Coleman, J Davies, O Griffiths, G Bertranou, J Lewis, A Warren.

I really don't like Olowofela on the wing. I am a little surprised he didn't get a bit of a telling off for his poor defence last week, but I guess there are injuries to Dyer et al, otherwise we should be playing somebody else. I suppose you could argue that Dee is lucky to start, after last week too, as Taylor Davies (who I don't particularly rate) seemed better at his arrows than Dee.

[Guest]

Was it Olowofela who seemed scared to tackle at the end of the game when Leinster scored their non-try? Was pretty funny until I remembered it was my team he was playing for! Whoever it was, really didn't look like he wanted to run in and make a last ditch tackle.

On that note - I've seen the replay a million times now and I'm still not convinced that the Leinster player knocked it on. Thought it might have gone backwards off our jumper's hand. So a bit of luck there I reckon as that would have been 7 points and no LBP for us.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I thought Dee was really quite poor against Leinster, and I'm not sure Galway is the best place for a player to 'find form' or whatever.

Very happy to see Jordan Williams back, we've missed the threat he poses.

[RiscaGame]

Was it Olowofela who seemed scared to tackle at the end of the game when Leinster scored their non-try?  Was pretty funny until I remembered it was my team he was playing for!  Whoever it was, really didn't look like he wanted to run in and make a last ditch tackle.

On that note - I've seen the replay a million times now and I'm still not convinced that the Leinster player knocked it on.  Thought it might have gone backwards off our jumper's hand.  So a bit of luck there I reckon as that would have been 7 points and no LBP for us.

Yeah, that was the most obvious moment where he dropped his bottom, but I thought there were a few other times too.

I'm not sure about the knock on either. I did see the hand go in, but didn't think you could definitively say it was a knock on. Certainly must have been confident to overrule the ref, who I am certain gave a try on the field.

[RiscaGame]

I thought Dee was really quite poor against Leinster, and I'm not sure Galway is the best place for a player to 'find form' or whatever.

Very happy to see Jordan Williams back, we've missed the threat he poses.

I was noticing that Dee was standing on the pitch throwing in too. I didn't think that was allowed, never mind his general fascination with stepping across to his side of the line

Yes indeed, although Lewis did play well against Ospreys, I do feel we should have more of a running threat at 15. Particularly when we aren't overly free scoring, at the minute (in the league anyway).

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Josh Lewis has done well at full back, and he's a very useful squad member these days, but he's a very different proposition with ball in hand.

I just had a look at the forecast for Galway tomorrow, fearing the worst, but it's meant to be dry with a light breeze!

[RiscaGame]

I really wish I could have gone to Galway. It's a brilliant city.

Weather was okay on game day, when I went a few years back (3 maybe?). It did rain the rest of the weekend though.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

And what a difference Jordan Williams made!

[mikey_dragon]

For sure, I didn't realise how much we missed him. Defence was good again, all the guys putting in hits and putting their bodies on the line. Our defence around the fringes of the ruck needs work however. A good difference a few signings have made eh.

[Sponsored content]