Ashes 2021/22 and other cricket through the winter of 2021 thread

[Mind the windows Tino.]

First topic message reminder :

James Bracey? Admittedly looked painfully bad vs NZ in the summer, but if we are wanting to give guys a chance then he shouldn’t be forgotten about so quickly. Especially as he was batting out of position. Better FC record than Hameed and made a half century for the Lions in Aus in 2020 and a ton this time. But he was flown home because English scoring runs just isn’t on!

Fair. Had forgotten about him actually and he was thrown a suicide pass in the summer against the best test team in the world. He probably does deserve another shot in the near future.

[alfie]

Ah well I think I have just about recovered by now from the numb feeling brought on by the events of this (Melbourne) morning...

So a few thoughts (not to make light of today - impossible - but to try to make sense of it)

68 all out is horrible. It happens : so do 60 in a first innings or 36 in a second to take just two (not English) examples from the last few years. But there really is no such thing as an all out 68 pitch. Nevertheless , this Test was not lost today - it was lost on day one. As Anderson suggested , this was probably a 250 pitch and they were 60/70 light. And as - perhaps contrary to expectations - the pitch didn't get easier for batting , a second innings collapse when faced with even a modest deficit was always a chance.

None of this is to excuse batting shortcomings , I should say. But when I look at some of the incandescent rage spewing across some websites I feel we need to keep some things in perspective. Nobody threw their wicket away in this innings , or didn't bother to try. They just weren't good enough to handle some very good pace bowling on a tricky pitch : ignoring the four rabbits - one of whom was rather cruelly sent into the viper's pit early - all the batsmen were got out. Three edged good balls to slip or keeper ; two were beaten and adjudged marginally lbw ; and one was bowled by a ball that clipped top of stumps - all classic dismissals and individually not too shocking. Was the all in one innings thing that made it truly awful.
Plus the fact that there were also a number of edges that might have got wickets on another day. Not even Root ever looked comfortable for more than a few balls. How much of this combined failure was down to incompetence and how much to the mental state of the players , is my main question : and I am not sure I know the answer. But it is pretty clear they were very rattled last night and it didn't get any better this morning.

Did they actually lose the series on day one at the Gabba ? Has the effect of constantly seeming to have to catch up one day from another simply done their heads in ? Can't help but think there is a lot of that in it because even if this is a very weak batting group by Test standards (which it is) they probably are capable of better. Blame poor selection , lack of warm ups , luck of the toss , whatever : we are entitled to expect better ; but I suspect the players are suffering worse than the fans.

I do hope they can come back in Sydney , too late though it is , and put up a decent show. Don't rate Silverwood at all - was unhappy in the northern summer - but I don't think anything he can do now can make much difference : is going to be up to the individual players. If we are to see anything salvaged from the wreckage it might be a display of character from some of them. Will keep watching and hope to see some such.

As an aside I do think Root may opt to resign the captaincy after the series (whatever happens in these two games). Stokes will presumably take it on and I think he may bring a more vigorous style to the leadership - but he will still need some serious improvement in the batting or he's going to be relying on the bowlers just as much as Joe has been for the last couple of years. But I'm just guessing anyway...

[GSC]

Rather predictably the knives are out for the Hundred online, because England had been batting so well before last year

[Duty281]

Agnew, who predicted a 2-2 result and said Australia were only marginal favourites pre-series, has now declared that England never stood a chance.

So many clueless pundits like him who know nothing about the sport they commentate on, yet they get paid handsomely to do it.

[KP_fan]

Agnew, who predicted a 2-2 result and said Australia were only marginal favourites pre-series, has now declared that England never stood a chance.

So many clueless pundits like him who know nothing about the sport they commentate on, yet they get paid handsomely to do it.

Agnew and Blofeld before him and now Isa Guha are commentators because they are pleasing to the ears & non controversial...and not because they can read the game deeply & intimately
They do have enuf skills to explain what's going on, on the field in the moment ...ball is swinging, batsman looking edgy, what are the field placements and so on.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Rather predictably the knives are out for the Hundred online, because England had been batting so well before last year

Yes there is a lot of people failing to see the actual issues so far…to be honest I include the ECB in that!

If a cricketing country like New Zealand with vastly inferior resources and a smaller player pool can compete in all formats, us as one of the so called “big three” should be more than able too as well.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The mental stats also continue to amaze - this was one I enjoyed

By February 6, Joe Root had already scored over 100 more Test runs than any other England player would manage in the whole of 2021.

[alfie]

Without having actually looked back at Agnew's comments , I'd agree that sounds like a serious bit of backtracking if it's accurate

But I don't think calling a series result wrongly is proof that the pundit doesn't know much about the game or can't read it ! After all , Duty : I wouldn't accuse you of being clueless about cricket but just a few months ago you were confidently predicting an easy England home series win over India...I also seem to recollect nearly everyone on here being massively wrong in predictions re the t20 cup.

Predictions are based on a lot of factors : but generally on theories of how various players are likely to perform in a series. And opinions obviously vary - just as what players actually do at any time tends to do : they aren't robots.

I'm not a massive Agnew fan. But he's actually experienced the game at the top level so probably has some knowledge of what he's talking about.

Doesn't make him a prophet

[Duty281]

England need to scorch the earth and begin again.

County cricket - tear it up. There needs to be a premier first-class competition of preferably six teams, maximum of eight. It needs to be either four-day with 110 overs per day, or five-day with 90 overs per day. The ECB should be responsible for curating the pitch, to ensure there are no roads or dodgy pitches. It has to be played in the prime months of summer and alongside English test series at home. It has to be promoted and look professional.

There can be minor competitions running below it (3 or 4 day), with perhaps a play-off relegation and promotion system, but it will be the premier competition that has the best players and will be where England select from.

The T20 blast should be slim-lined and can be either:

a) Wholly independent of the premier first-class competition, meaning that players who play in the former can't play in the latter and vice versa, and that Blast fixtures can be played on the same days as the first-class competition.
OR
b) Run alongside as is the manner now with more fixtures being played in May and late August/early September, and only a few in the 'prime months of summer'.

Move the 50-over competition to the edges of the calendar and slim it down. Abolish the Hundred.

Total clear-out of the ECB staff, who are clueless about cricket and only conversant with money. Invest more in junior coaching. Try and give the game more of a footing in state schools.

England, specifically:

Get rid of the entire coaching staff and start again. Have one overall 'director of cricket' who has vision and scope. Under that director should be three separate 'team managers' who are all individually responsible for the 'test', 'ODI' and 'T20' teams.

No more three format players, it's lunacy, two formats at most. Tests only is fine, or ODIs only, or T20s only, or tests and ODIs, or ODIs and T20s, but not tests and T20s, and certainly not all three.

Invest more in data analysis. Run the game from a sabre-metrics approach.

Stop being so bloody obsessed with the Ashes.

Petition the government and get all home tests on FTA TV and YouTube.

I don't want to see Root captain again. I wouldn't trust him to lead the war effort on a Hearts of Iron game. I wouldn't let him play Cricket Captain 2021. The new captain should be someone who's currently outside the set-up, the rugby team did similar when they made Robshaw captain in 2012. Not sure who that could be to be honest.

The ECB should also ensure a consistent number of games for the England team - 6 or 7 tests in a summer, 6-8 ODIs and 4-6 T20s is the ideal number, versus two or three different opponents. Ensure that games are played throughout England and Wales with an equal covering, and stop playing internationals at Lord's which is a horrible ground and gives me ill-feeling. Perhaps bring back those tri-series of the early 2000s for ODIs or T20s?

With regard to winter tours - have some bloody warm-up games v proper, first-class opposition, like the Lions try to do in rugby. No intra-squad games. Two three-day (or four) games v FC opposition as an absolute minimum, but preferably three or four. And there should be either be two smaller winter tours in a winter e.g. trip to Sri Lanka, three warm-up games, two tests, ODI warm-up, three ODIs and off home (taking around 40-60 days from the start of October to the end of November), followed by a 2 month rest, then a trip to the West Indies, three warm-up games, three tests, ODI warm-up, three ODIs and off home (taking around 40-60 days from the start of January to the end of February) OR

one larger tour and that is the only winter tour. For instance, trip to Australia, three warm-up games, two tests, another FC practice game, three more tests, ODI warm-up game, two ODIs, another practice game, three more ODIs (taking around 90 days).

How not to run a winter tour is the situation these England players have found themselves in.

England are currently heading for 10th-12th place in the test cricketing world. That's where they will be within ten years unless the ECB makes serious changes. It's not just the ECB's fault. They're bad governors of the game, but so are the ICC.

[Duty281]

Without having actually looked back at Agnew's comments , I'd agree that sounds like a serious bit of backtracking if it's accurate

But I don't think calling a series result wrongly is proof that the pundit doesn't know much about the game or can't read it ! After all , Duty : I wouldn't accuse you of being clueless about cricket but just a few months ago you were confidently predicting an easy England home series win over India...I also seem to recollect nearly everyone on here being massively wrong in predictions re the t20 cup.

Predictions are based on a lot of factors  : but generally on theories of how various players are likely to perform in a series. And opinions obviously vary - just as what players actually do at any time tends to do : they aren't robots.

I'm not a massive Agnew fan. But he's actually experienced the game at the top level so probably has some knowledge of what he's talking about.

Doesn't make him a prophet

I make talk a load of old cobblers sometimes, but at least I'm not in the pay of someone to be wrong. I'm just very tired of sports punditry and commentators in general, with very few exceptions. Agnew, Neville, Warne, Moore, Savage, O'Brien Botham - they all talk a load of old rubbish, Neville especially, but they are rewarded handsomely for it and it's the viewer who has to suffer.

On Amazon Prime, when they broadcast sport, you can mute the commentators and only listen to the crowd noise and sounds of the game. It's heavenly.

And England should have easily beaten India, and would have done if Root weren't captain. And no one can accurately predict T20s, it's close to asking people to pick the lottery results.

[alfie]

Rather predictably the knives are out for the Hundred online, because England had been batting so well before last year

Yes there is a lot of people failing to see the actual issues so far…to be honest I include the ECB in that!

If a cricketing country like New Zealand with vastly inferior resources and a smaller player pool can compete in all formats, us as one of the so called “big three” should be more than able too as well.

But they can compete , Olly. Just they can't compete very well in Australia in Tests at present. Neither could NZ just a year or two back , I should point out .

Test team has fallen off a cliff in the last few months. They really weren't rubbish before that , even if they weren't fantastic either. I think there is more than one factor to blame but something does seem to have gone badly awry recently. Is it the management ; or the peculiar circumstances of the last couple of years that has caused a general loss of form across most of the playing group ?

Personally feel the over-emphasis on white ball stuff has done a lot of harm to England but that may be just my prejudice. I think there is room for a lot of debate about the problems and possible solutions...

And I imagine we will have a lot of it on here over the next few months

[Pal Joey]

...I also seem to recollect nearly everyone on here being massively wrong in predictions re the t20 cup.

That's right, alfie. Gosh you've got a great memory!  

I abstained from making a prediction. Think I was quietly backing India or Pakistan to win it.
That doesn't mean I don't know a little bit about t20 cricket though!

[alfie]

Wow ... When you say "Scorched Earth " , Duty , you really mean it

Think I will let guildford have first go at discussing some of your more radical proposals for the English domestic game.

Totally agree re the need for proper warm up arrangements for tours ; but I am not sure that is going to be quite as easy to fix as we might wish. Same goes for the whole International programme. Money talks.

Have said elsewhere I expect Root to pass the reins on - if he can find anyone else willing to take them ! But I'm not putting too much blame on him ... and I'm not giving you a leave pass for your India series prediction on the grounds that he sabotaged it either

[GSC]

I do think we sometimes treat being good at white ball cricket as almost a sin sometimes, many teams have been good at both simultaneously.

Agree with Duty, any inquest has to start from the beginning. England rarely produce test standard players, let alone players who excel in that arena. It's not even as if there's a current pipeline of talent, Hameed was parachuted into the India series out of nowhere because he was making runs for Notts, Crawley back in midway through this series. Pope was the last good hope but he's gone backwards since his call up.

Dunno if it already happens but could the ECB be funding promising players to go play in Australia etc during the winter.

[Duty281]

Wow ... When you say "Scorched Earth " , Duty , you really mean it

Think I will let guildford have first go at discussing some of your more radical proposals for the English domestic game.

Totally agree re the need for proper warm up arrangements for tours ; but I am not sure that is going to be quite as easy to fix as we might wish. Same goes for the whole International programme.  Money talks.

Have said elsewhere I expect Root to pass the reins on - if he can find anyone else willing to take them !  But I'm not putting too much blame on him ... and I'm not giving you a leave pass for your India series prediction on the grounds that he sabotaged it either

Haha, fair enough.

And yes, money is the main issue. There's no incentive for the ECB to change. England's cricket team will still pack out the grounds at home for whatever format they play, the T20 blast keeps the counties afloat and content, the big broadcasting money piles in year-after-year, and the ECB staff get to collect their huge salaries and generous bonuses. Why change that, they'll think? Reform the game? Sounds too much like risky hard work.

It's been the same problem with football for years, which has only recently changed. Why invest money into grassroots coaching (still needs improvement) and youth development (getting much better) when the Premier League is doing so well and the England football team still attract 90,000 at Wembley?

And with rugby, it took a huge effort from Clive Woodward to drag English rugby from cozy amateurism to proper professionalism, which culminated in the 2003 World Cup win.

[Duty281]

I do think we sometimes treat being good at white ball cricket as almost a sin sometimes, many teams have been good at both simultaneously.

Agree with Duty, any inquest has to start from the beginning. England rarely produce test standard players, let alone players who excel in that arena. It's not even as if there's a current pipeline of talent, Hameed was parachuted into the India series out of nowhere because he was making runs for Notts, Crawley back in midway through this series. Pope was the last good hope but he's gone backwards since his call up.

Dunno if it already happens but could the ECB be funding promising players to go play in Australia etc during the winter.

That's a very good point, I think Kingraf and Soul have also brought it up. FC specialists who are pushing for England selection should be encouraged to play first-class cricket in Australia, possibly even India, during the winter months.

What's Foakes been doing this winter? One game v Australia 'A' and that's it.

[kingraf]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

[alfie]

I do think we sometimes treat being good at white ball cricket as almost a sin sometimes, many teams have been good at both simultaneously.

Agree with Duty, any inquest has to start from the beginning. England rarely produce test standard players, let alone players who excel in that arena. It's not even as if there's a current pipeline of talent, Hameed was parachuted into the India series out of nowhere because he was making runs for Notts, Crawley back in midway through this series. Pope was the last good hope but he's gone backwards since his call up.

Dunno if it already happens but could the ECB be funding promising players to go play in Australia etc during the winter.

That's a very good point, I think Kingraf and Soul have also brought it up. FC specialists who are pushing for England selection should be encouraged to play first-class cricket in Australia, possibly even India, during the winter months.

What's Foakes been doing this winter? One game v Australia 'A' and that's it.

Seem to recall that used to happen back a few years - up to a point. One problem is that there are only six state teams so they aren't always falling over themselves to help train potential England players. Easier to play grade cricket of course but not quite the same.

Bit different the other way. With 18 counties there is more space to fit in overseas imports : and they are often quite ready to take them - even if it does end up helping them beat up on the national team a year or two later

[JDizzle]

Rather predictably the knives are out for the Hundred online, because England had been batting so well before last year

Yes there is a lot of people failing to see the actual issues so far…to be honest I include the ECB in that!

If a cricketing country like New Zealand with vastly inferior resources and a smaller player pool can compete in all formats, us as one of the so called “big three” should be more than able too as well.

But they can compete , Olly.  Just they can't compete very well in Australia in Tests at present. Neither could NZ just a year or two back , I should point out .

Test team has fallen off a cliff in the last few months. They really weren't rubbish before that , even if they weren't fantastic either. I think there is  more than one factor to blame but something does seem to have gone badly awry recently. Is it the management ; or the peculiar circumstances of the last couple of years that has caused a general loss of form across most of the playing group ?

Personally feel the over-emphasis on white ball stuff has done a lot of harm to England but that may be just my prejudice. I think there is room for a lot of debate about the problems and possible solutions...  

And I imagine we will have a lot of it on here over the next few months

This is an interesting one - as I wonder whether an England Test team has ever had as hard a run of fixtures as they have this year. They've gone from India in India playing on raging turners to facing the World Test Champions NZ in seaming conditions. They've followed that by playing India with their best ever seam attack in England in seaming conditions and have then gone to Australia to face Starc, Cummins and Hazlewood. And they've done all this whilst trying to prepare for a T20 WC and under the auspices of covid and all the problems that entails with preparation etc.

I guess it then depends on your perspective - whether it is good that run of games has ruthlessly exposed the underlying problems in English cricket or whether you think with a kinder schedule it might have allowed Pope, Crawley, Lawrence a bit of time to bed in and the batting problems wouldn't be as bad as they look now.

Playing those attacks makes Root's year all the more remarkable though.

[alfie]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

That's what I was getting at a few posts above. As you say , a rotten year ; and it does seem that apart from Root practically every batsman in and around the squad has regressed from their previous standard over this period. Fixed trend or just an extraordinary set of circumstances ? Guess we will see going forward. There are some endemic weaknesses , certainly. But this run against some pretty handy opponents may not actually signal the Death of English Cricket just yet.

Should remind ourselves that Australia has been a graveyard for the last three tours. And there were certainly a few good players on those squads so this latest disaster is not exactly unique.

2009 was the last time England were bowled out to lose by an innings despite trailing by less than 85 runs. That was against West Indies. A year or so later they were winning Ashes tourists and heading for top of the rankings...though I am not actually predicting a similar rapid ascent this time !

[sirfredperry]

Don't think Root giving up the captaincy is the right thing. Only other contender is Stokes and would you really want to lumber him with being skipper as well?

Yes, 68 all out was horrible. But should we be that surprised about how things have turned out? England's batting has been as poor as I, at 71, have known it this year, they had no real warm up for the series and no cricket between the Tests.

Is it any wonder that out-of-form and out-of-practice players who can only be replaced by other out-of-form and out-of-practice players have performed badly?

A final word on Root, who was yet again top scorer in both innings. To have batted in 2021 like he has - the captain, with little or no support from in-form batters, knowing all depended on him - has been remarkable.

He didn't quite get the runs-in-a-calendar-year record but I would venture to say that his effort this year eclipses ALL the others in the best-year list.

[kingraf]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

That's what I was getting at a few posts above. As you say , a rotten year ; and it does seem that apart from Root practically every batsman in and around the squad has regressed from their previous standard over this period. Fixed trend or just an extraordinary set of circumstances ? Guess we will see going forward.  There are some endemic weaknesses , certainly. But this run against some pretty handy opponents may not actually signal the Death of English Cricket just yet.

Should remind ourselves that Australia has been a graveyard for the last three tours. And there were certainly a few good players on those squads so this latest disaster is not exactly unique.

2009 was the last time England were bowled out to lose by an innings despite trailing by less than 85 runs. That was against West Indies. A year or so later they were winning Ashes tourists and heading for top of the rankings...though I am not actually predicting a similar rapid ascent this time !

It is of course not all rosy. The reality is not a single player who made his debut for England in the past five years averages more than 35, which does seem to suggest a batting endemic of sorts has gripped England. But Test cricket is both cruel, but also surprisingly kind. The South African team from 2011-2014 wasn't quite all conquering, but it was damn close. In reality though, AB de Villiers, Amla, Steyn and Philander represented something like 90% of the man of the matches we received in that era. Similarly, until Labuschagne came to the fore, Australia made do as a batting line up with Smith and Warner at home, and they were/are nigh on unbearable there. If you can get a second bankable batsman, suddenly it becomes easier to find 3-4 other batsmen who can contribute enough to keep you in games. Of course the dream is to have Australia's '99-2007 team and have match winners 1-11, but in reality, most teams have to make do with 2-3 good bats and a decent pace attack

[Gooseberry]

Om the plus side at least Anderson didnt have to bowl in the second innings

[msp83]

What more can England do? Perhaps Stuart Broad can retire in the middle of the series, and they can drop Root and Malan for daring to score a few!

[Duty281]

A final word on Root, who was yet again top scorer in both innings. To have batted in 2021 like he has - the captain, with little or no support from in-form batters, knowing all depended on him - has been remarkable.

He didn't quite get the runs-in-a-calendar-year record but I would venture to say that his effort this year eclipses ALL the others in the best-year list.

Easily the best. Yousuf is at the top, but he frequently came to the crease at 150/2 and played on pancake flat wickets, against plenty of middling opposition. Root has taken on the very best that test cricket currently has to offer - Ashwin, Bumrah, Siraj, Axar, Cummins, Hazlewood, Starc, Lyon, Boult, Jamieson and Southee - and done magnificently.

[Duty281]

It is of course not all rosy. The reality is not a single player who made his debut for England in the past five years averages more than 35, which does seem to suggest a batting endemic of sorts has gripped England.

Which is why I forecast bad times. In five years time or so, whenever Root retires, England's batting order will be full of high 20s and low 30s averages. They'll struggle to beat anyone.

England haven't debuted a high-quality test batsman since Root in December 2012, so it's reasonable to assume they won't do so in the next 9 years either, unless serious reform is meted out to the domestic game. Any country can have lean spells in producing top-quality cricketers, but 9 years without a decent batsman is more than a lean spell, it points to a gross inadequacy in the first-class system.

It goes a little further back than 2012, actually. Since England won the Ashes in September 2005, only Cook, Prior, Trott and Root have debuted and been high-quality test batsmen. Four quality batsmen debuted in 16 years. It's a disgrace. You could perhaps add Stokes if you were generous.

For comparison, Australia have found around ten in the same time frame. India around 13. Tiny New Zealand have pulled out half a dozen.

[VTR]

What's also worrying for England is bringing in batsmen who do well for one or two years then fall off a cliff to become abysmal. Off the top of my head Ballance, Bairstow, Pope, Sibley and Crawley are all on that list.

[guildfordbat]

Wow ... When you say "Scorched Earth " , Duty , you really mean it

Think I will let guildford have first go at discussing some of your more radical proposals for the English domestic game.

Totally agree re the need for proper warm up arrangements for tours ; but I am not sure that is going to be quite as easy to fix as we might wish. Same goes for the whole International programme.  Money talks.

Have said elsewhere I expect Root to pass the reins on - if he can find anyone else willing to take them !  But I'm not putting too much blame on him ... and I'm not giving you a leave pass for your India series prediction on the grounds that he sabotaged it either

Thanks, pal!

Family stuff tonight - try tomorrow.

[msp83]

What's also worrying for England is bringing in batsmen who do well for one or two years then fall off a cliff to become abysmal. Off the top of my head Ballance, Bairstow, Pope, Sibley and Crawley are all on that list.

Don't think the likes of Pope, Crawley and Sibley have performed for 1 or 2 years and then lost it. They've had 2 or 3 good games in between a lot of inconsistencies. Bairstow and Ballance yes, they did look like proper test bats before losing it. And Bairstow even in his current state, is a better bet than Crawley or Pope.

[VTR]

Well, yes some of them fall a bit short of that, but did look decent for a number of games at least. Pope had a really good tour of SA, I really thought then we'd found a middle order batsman. Crawley started slowly but showed continual improvement until making a double century. Sibley was good away to SA and the 2020 home summer. They are all hopeless at the moment though!

[Maine man]

Quick question, what batsmen in the county game would people like to see be given an opportunity?

[king_carlos]

Quick question, what batsmen in the county game would people like to see be given an opportunity?

There's not a lot frankly, Maine. Hence the debates around whether county cricket is fit purpose when it comes to producing Test cricketers.

England have tried practically everyone who's scored runs in the CC and a fair few who haven't like Crawley and Buttler. Players such as Burns, Sibley and Pope were picked because they were the dominant scorers in the CC.

A few years ago I thought Nick Browne looked a really good player but his form fell off a cliff around when England needed to replace Alastair Cook.

Of the tried and discarded players I still think (Olly will laugh at me here) that Ben Duckett is more talented than many batsman tried since him. James Bracey was hung out to dry by abysmal selection when picked as a keeper and batted at 7. He's no Test match level keeper but does have talent as a top 3 batsman.

I'm surprised the Leicestershire opener Hassan Azad hasn't even been with the Lions.could be a potential. Harry Brook played as a batsman against Australia A. I've nothing personally against the bloke but Brook averages 27.6 in F-C cricket for goodness sake.

Rob Yates has some fans but needs a lot more experience, runs and tons. The same for Jamie Smith who I do think looks a talent but needs a lot more experience. Tom Lammonby looked excellent during his debut 2020 summer but had a stinker in 2021. I think he is one to watch but again needs time.

Josh Bohannon was with the Lions in Oz. He has a decent F-C average but only 3 tons. I've honestly not seen him bat. The average suggests there might be something there but the lack of big scores make me wonder if his average might drop a bit as he plays more games. Again, one that needs more runs before being near a Test match.

The options aren't inspiring basically.

I think Ben Foakes might get an extended run at keeper and I'd love him to succeed. His glovework is wonderful to watch and he has plenty of ability with the bat. When he got 3 Tests in a row over the winter, albeit in very tough Indian conditions, he actually made some uncharacteristic errors with the gloves and struggled with the bat though. I think Guildford used the phrase, "he looked like a beautiful bridesmaid rather than the bride", after those Tests.

[guildfordbat]

Another very fine post, Carlos.

It's too late and I've supped too many ales to properly reply to it now but will try to do so over the next day along with your post the other day in response to my mixed bag of thoughts about England and the county game.

All I'll say atm is that I've seen a fair bit of Jamie Smith and do rate the young guy highly. More next time.

Btw, Carlos, have you spoken to your dad about Ray Illingworth? Pretty off topic, I know, and apologies for that but we sure could do with some of the organisation and fight that came with Illy's captaincy. I'm sure your grandad would have approved of that.

[kingraf]

I do think we sometimes treat being good at white ball cricket as almost a sin sometimes, many teams have been good at both simultaneously.

Agree with Duty, any inquest has to start from the beginning. England rarely produce test standard players, let alone players who excel in that arena. It's not even as if there's a current pipeline of talent, Hameed was parachuted into the India series out of nowhere because he was making runs for Notts, Crawley back in midway through this series. Pope was the last good hope but he's gone backwards since his call up.

Dunno if it already happens but could the ECB be funding promising players to go play in Australia etc during the winter.

That's a very good point, I think Kingraf and Soul have also brought it up. FC specialists who are pushing for England selection should be encouraged to play first-class cricket in Australia, possibly even India, during the winter months.

What's Foakes been doing this winter? One game v Australia 'A' and that's it.

Seem to recall that used to happen back a few years - up to a point. One problem is that there are only six state teams so they aren't always falling over themselves to help train potential England players.  Easier to play grade cricket of course but not quite the same.

Bit different the other way. With 18 counties there is more space to fit in overseas imports : and they are often quite ready to take them - even if it does end up helping them beat up on the national team a year or two later  

I think a possible working alternative is maybe having the players spend a summer or two in South Africa. Similar-ish conditions, and with the South African system having moved from six franchises to 15 districts, there is
A - Probably enough space to accommodate say half-a-dozen English batsmen and bowlers across the various sides.

And equally importantly for SA

B - Probably a need for imported batsmen to raise the standard of play while the inevitable dip in quality that comes from nearly tripling the size of your domestic competition happens.

[Old Man]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

South Africa isn't worth mentioning these days. From their administration, to the controversies and their on field performances it has become embarrassing that such a great test country have fallen by the wayside.

I fear we have seen the last of the Proteas as a world force.

[kingraf]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

South Africa isn't worth mentioning these days. From their administration, to the controversies and their on field performances it has become embarrassing that such a great test country have fallen by the wayside.

I fear we have seen the last of the Proteas as a world force.

I mean, England is the only team we've lost a home series to in seven years, but sure, we're also-rans now.

[kingraf]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

South Africa isn't worth mentioning these days. From their administration, to the controversies and their on field performances it has become embarrassing that such a great test country have fallen by the wayside.

I fear we have seen the last of the Proteas as a world force.

I mean, England is the only team we've lost a home series to in seven years, but sure, we're also-rans now.

Have to go all the way back to the last time we were in Australia to find when we last beat them. Embarrassing really.

[sirfredperry]

Some are suggesting this is among the worst, possibly, the worst performance by an England team Down Under.

However, this is also one of the poorest sides England have ever taken to Australia and a side with no real warm-up matches and with their top all-rounder rusty.

Surely, you have to consider that the England sides who took part in 06/07 and 2013/14 Ashes series were far more culpable in that both were full of top Ashes-winning players.

And what about 1958/59 when what was described at the time as one of the strongest teams to travel Down Under were thumped 4-0 by a young Australian side. (yes, I know there were a lot of injuries and that Meckiff threw and Rorke dragged thru the crease)

But just look at the bowling for England on that tour. Trueman, Statham, Tyson, Loader, Lock, Laker and Bailey. The batting had May, Cowdrey and Graveney.

Rather puts 2021/22 into perspective.

[alfie]

I do think it is fair to say there are plenty of reasons/excuses for this side to be struggling in Australia ; and although this latest collapse was rather spectacular it is probably drawing more attention than it actually merits - plenty of other teams have folded for low scores in recent years.
Think it is more the culmination of a sequence of poor results that has caused all the angst among supporters : and the belief that serious flaws in the management of the game in England are not being addressed.

[Pal Joey]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

South Africa isn't worth mentioning these days. From their administration, to the controversies and their on field performances it has become embarrassing that such a great test country have fallen by the wayside.

I fear we have seen the last of the Proteas as a world force.

I mean, England is the only team we've lost a home series to in seven years, but sure, we're also-rans now.

Have to go all the way back to the last time we were in Australia to find when we last beat them. Embarrassing really.

That Hobart test was embarrassing for us. Shades of this last match (in reverse) with Australia being bundled out for 85, SA posting 327... then ripping through Australia again who could only manage 161. So an innings and 80 run win it was for your guys, raf, to take an unassailable 2-0 lead at that point.

All I can say to you and C is hang in there. Same for England fans. All teams go through rough patches. 2008/2009, 2010/2011, 2013, 2016, 2018 and of course the end of India's tour here 2020/2021 were miserable times for Australian cricket. It feels a little better when those lean years are punctuated with a few clean sweeps but Australia also experimented with some players who would normally never get near a Test XI... and got soundly thrashed on many occasions. I believe both SA and England will unearth someone... or that someone will progress to the next stage of their career after this low point. Then (as a few have mentioned) this will build confidence in other players around them and the team will start having results go their way.

I agree with about 90% of Duty's master plan above; particularly in regard to an ECB clean out, proper warm-up matches on tours, 'forced polarisation' between test/odi and odi/t20 specialists, increased focus on red ball cricket at the height of summer and simulating overseas conditions at home or sending players overseas to familiarise them with non-English playing conditions. All teams should be doing this if they want to remain on top.

It feels hopeless (as a fan) during those hard times but by the same token there may be one or two hidden gems who emerge from those tough years as stronger players and who then go on to have their time in the sun. It just goes to show that such players have to somehow ride out the storm (which can last for years!) recover from injuries, have the backing of selectors, work hard on improving their game and try not to throw in the towel too early when things look dire. And obviously not getting the chop completely would also help their cause in the long run.

Was just checking out tickets for the 4th Test. Even though the series is already over, I still really enjoy a day out at the ground. Always have this feeling of the magnificent history of the game when I go out there. You can really feel the spirit of the great players who have strode out to bat whilst the bowlers and fielders go through their limbering up. It's such a special atmosphere. I've mentioned that I was stared at* (I thought too intensely) by The Don once (early 90s)... he must have thought: who is this young punk? Or maybe he caught a glimpse of my look of sheer enjoyment at being at the game and thought: That's good to see! Who knows what he was thinking? I guess we'll never know.

I was just about to click "process payment" when a news item mentioned that covid cases are going on a bit of a surge here. This was then followed by some smiling blonde woman telling everyone that there will be no restrictions on SCG crowd numbers. 35,000 on Day 1. What?? Seems crazy. Our Premier is also encouraging everyone to go out and have big New Year celebrations. It just doesn't add up. So I chickened out and didn't book seats.

I have a feeling that although the match will most likely go ahead... I wouldn't feel all that comfortable mingling with 10s of thousands of others. A pity really. There's a huge struggle going on within me - whether to satisfy the need to rekindle happy memories of cricket matches or play it safe and stay at home.

* I was also once stared at by the famous Australian commentator Norman May... who had a glass eye. Also at a cricket match. But that was different to Bradman. With Norman May, there was this sense that he was looking at something else entirely and I just happened to be in his line of vision way. I gave him the friendly wave anyway.

[JDizzle]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

South Africa isn't worth mentioning these days. From their administration, to the controversies and their on field performances it has become embarrassing that such a great test country have fallen by the wayside.

I fear we have seen the last of the Proteas as a world force.

I mean, England is the only team we've lost a home series to in seven years, but sure, we're also-rans now.

Sri Lanka, surely? This SA team playing India looks stronger than the one England played - but I will not have this Kusal Perera erasure!

[Duty281]

What's the England team going to be for Sydney, in just under a week's time?

I can imagine a total clear-out of the three seam bowlers. Anderson's played two consecutive tests so probably gets a rest now; it's a big risk playing Wood for two consecutive tests so perhaps he gets a rest; and Robinson definitely needs a rest after three straight tests, the last of which he was notably struggling for pace, and the biggest workload of any England bowler so far. That would mean Broad (that's OK), Woakes (oh dear) and Overton (good grief) all getting into the XI. At least two changes, if not three, I reckon.

Not sure any changes to the batting will happen. Lawrence coming in for Buttler may be the only change, unless Stokes is injured. Don't think they'll fiddle with the top three.

Australia's top seven needs no altering and neither does Lyon. The only complication is finding the best arrangement of seam bowlers. Starc has bowled more overs than any fast bowler this series (100 overs; 13 more than the second-most which is Robinson) so he'll probably be rested allowing Hazlewood to come back in. Cummins will stay and they can't drop Boland after that debut test! No way back, currently, for Richardson or Neser.

The series is obviously over, but Australia's ruthless winning mentality (which I so admire) will ensure they're targeting 5-0. That and the all-important WTC (*cough*). Australia are in a tight battle with India and Pakistan* for a spot in the final two and every point is crucial -  *maybe NZ can join that battle if they dominate their four home tests over the next couple of months and topple England next summer.

[GSC]

A member of Chris Silverwoods family tested positive for COVID so he'll be isolating during the 4th test

[kingraf]

I'm not saying being 12-0 down in the last 13 Ashes matches is ideal, but I think it's important to note that while this year was something of an annus horribillis. You're still the 50 over world champs, went into the World T20 as favourites, and heading into the disastrous India tour, you'd won five out of seven Test series, including wins in South Africa and Sri Lanka.

South Africa isn't worth mentioning these days. From their administration, to the controversies and their on field performances it has become embarrassing that such a great test country have fallen by the wayside.

I fear we have seen the last of the Proteas as a world force.

I mean, England is the only team we've lost a home series to in seven years, but sure, we're also-rans now.

Sri Lanka, surely? This SA team playing India looks stronger than the one England played - but I will not have this Kusal Perera erasure!

You're completely correct! Crazy I'd forgotten that Sri Lanka came here and whooped us 2-0, seeing as that's probably exactly when our hell loop began. We went into that series having won five of our last six series in Tests, and four of our last five ODI series. After Perera decided to play the greatest knock of all time, we lost nine of our next ten Tests, and got humiliated in the World Cup. Probably a sign of how quickly things can and do change in international cricket.

[king_carlos]

Another very fine post, Carlos.

It's too late and I've supped too many ales to properly reply to it now but will try to do so over the next day along with your post the other day in response to my mixed bag of thoughts about England and the county game.

All I'll say atm is that I've seen a fair bit of Jamie Smith and do rate the young guy highly. More next time.  

Btw, Carlos, have you spoken to your dad about Ray Illingworth? Pretty off topic, I know, and apologies for that but we sure could do with some of the organisation and fight that came with Illy's captaincy. I'm sure your grandad would have approved of that.

Thanks, guildford. I look forward to your thoughts on the County game.

Yes, I was home with my parents on Xmas day when the news about Illy broke. Such sad news. I'm actually in the camp that the influence of captaincy in the modern game is often overstated but that is a different discussion! In Illy's era it was huge though as the role basically made you a manager, coach, selector, analyst and mentor. The all round package Illy brought as a leader in that era was incredible.

His Test economy which is exceptional even for an era when scoring rates were lower sums his reading of the game well. His Test average and strike rate, whilst by no means poor, when compared to his F-C numbers shows a spinner who sometimes struggled to offer threat against the best batsman. His ability to read the game, manipulate his field placings and be incredibly patient led to him offering an absolutely vital role providing control though.

I remember a long time ago the wonderful Tony Cozier during a radio bit was comparing past and present (for that time!) play. It was centred around the endless debate of comparing stats across eras, changing pitches, improved bats, "was bowling better then or now?", etc etc. Cozier made the really interesting point that shutting off unusual scoring areas for unorthodox batsman happened surprisingly little in the day. He mentioned Sobers 254 against Australia as an example. Whilst Sobers hitting of O'Keefe and Jenners spin in that innings is simply superlative, Cozier remembered Sobers scoring a lot of runs sliced over point from the quicks. Sobers seemed to identify that if he went hard and got enough of it to go over the top there was a lot of space there. As putting point back to quicks was viewed as very negative it took a long time to be plugged. Sobers kept going, not always in complete control and scored lots through that area. *

Orthodox scoring areas would be plugged if it was a batsman's strength. Deep square for strong hookers and pullers. Deep extra for cover drivers once they were set. Less orthodox scoring areas would frequently not be though. Cricket as a game likes what it knows. If a fielding position looks odd that can sometimes trump effectiveness for longer than it should.

Illy played very much in that era but did not skipper like it. He'd shut down scoring areas expertly regardless of how it looked. Had he played in a slightly later era for instance you get the feeling Illy would have dealt with Viv by starting with a man at cow despite anything commentators might have said about negativity and not trying to reinvent the wheel. If Viv still flicked balls from outside off through the leg side I can just imagine Illy shrugging and muttering, "risky shot for one lad".

* There's actually very good footage of that Sobers innings on robelinda's YouTube channel for those interested. Sobers footwork, placement and striking of spin is just sublime.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Reports in the Aussie media one of their batsmen has tested positive for Covid - their flight to Sydney is delayed

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Confirmed by CA as Travis Head

So we now have Covid in the England camp, the Aussie Camp and the officials (match referee David Boon is missing the next test). The series is done from a results point of view…

Why are these last two tests taking place?

[kingraf]

Confirmed by CA as Travis Head

So we now have Covid in the England camp, the Aussie Camp and the officials (match referee David Boon is missing the next test). The series is done from a results point of view…

Why are these last two tests taking place?

Because MONEY

[alfie]

Same reason the tour as a whole is happening - they all want to carry on as near to normal as possible. Some credit is I think due to the oft-criticized authorities for keeping international sport going in the midst of a pandemic , even if they don't get everything right.

Can see why a lot of long suffering England fans might like to see these matches called off ; but as long as it doesn't get to some crazy situation involving mass player lockouts I see no real reason why they shouldn't go ahead.

[VTR]

Seems to be a high chance that Mitchell Marsh will play, so we can complete the humiliation by letting him score a double hundred!

[Pal Joey]

Seems to be a high chance that Mitchell Marsh will play, so we can complete the humiliation by letting him score a double hundred!

Thought I heard Usman was in the mix too. A straight swap for Head.

With Green already in the side, I'd rather see Khawaja have a bat at his home ground for perhaps the last time.

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