English 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/05/six-nations-rugby-covid-rob-baxter

A potential answer to a potential problem. Baxter has said that if there is a risk of cancellations or playing in front of 1 man and his dog you may as well play all the games in England.

I suppose an interesting suggestion. If they could agree a slice of revenue from whichever grounds would host along with some teams giving up home advantage would people want to see this? It doesn't reduce the risk at all, merely increases it surely, gives England an advantage. It's unlikely the Government will bring in further restrictions as their hands are tied by the back benchers so reduces the risk of last minute changes. Just a big melting pot of cross contamination.


'Rob Baxter, Exeter’s director of rugby, believes that playing this season’s Six Nations in one country has “got to be better than cancelling it”.

The tournament is due to kick off in Dublin and Edinburgh on 5 February but currently finds itself shrouded in uncertainty. Under current Welsh Government restrictions imposed due to the pandemic and, specifically, the omicron variant, Wales would have to play scheduled home games against Scotland, France and Italy behind closed doors. Scotland are in a similar position for games at Murrayfield, while it has been reported that Wales could consider moving their home against Scotland, France and Italy to England.

Financial implications of behind-closed-doors home games for the Welsh Rugby Union would be significant. They faced an identical situation for last season’s tournament, with the shutters being down for matches against Ireland and England. Full crowds were, however, allowed at the Principality Stadium for Wales’ recent Autumn Nations Series before fresh restrictions took effect from Boxing Day.

Capacity crowds are currently allowed in England, provided spectators can prove full vaccination status or provide a negative lateral flow test. Against such a backdrop, playing the whole competition – it takes place across five weekends between early February and mid-March – in one country with permitted crowds has also been mooted in some quarters.

“The whole beauty of the Six Nations has been that change of environment, that change of weather conditions, going to play in Scotland, Wales, Ireland – those are the great challenges,” said Baxter. “That’s what makes the Six Nations such a great competition to win. You’ve seen French teams in that one week they can beat anyone in the world in Paris, and then the next week it doesn’t go quite so well in Cardiff. That’s the beauty of the tournament, that’s what from a rugby perspective I am sure we would all want to see happen.

“That said, we can’t all sit here and pretend the world is in an ideal place at the moment. For the national bodies, their responsibility goes beyond the professional sport, it goes right down to grassroots rugby, so if playing the tournament provides a level of income that cancelling it or no crowds doesn’t create, then we’ve got to look at the next best scenario. If the next best scenario is playing it in one country, where you can have sellout crowds, you can raise some revenue and you can keep that income stream going for all the bodies, then it’s got to be better than cancelling it.


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“I think with every sporting body, it’s revenue that is the biggest thing that has been damaged, so anything that can keep revenue online has got to be preferable to just binning things for a season,” Baxter added. “We’ve all had to try and find a way to keep going, to try and keep revenue coming in. It’s the same with any business, you’ve got to explore those options.”

lostinwales wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Just noticed current speculation is that May is out for the 6N. Hill has a foot problem and the prognosis is not known, and Slade is not training this week.

I suspect (based admittedly on nothing) that Lawes and Slade will be fine for Scotland, the only question being how much work Lawes will be able to do beforehand.

Lawes has developed that ability to return from injury playing very well to be fair. Some players seem to need a lot of training and games to reach their peak. For a while now Lawes has been very good pretty much whenever he plays.

I know he doesn't get injured so often these days but historically he's certainly had enough practice.

For a guy held together by physio tape Lawes availability had been excellent until last season where he only managed 5 games for Saints. He managed 3 AIs, 2 Six Nations games and the 4 Tests with Lions in around that over the 2020/21 season as well though.

Prior to that the least he'd played for Saints in a season was '19/20 with 12 starts and 841 minutes. Around that same 19/20 season he played a further 14 internationals and 731 minutes for England across RWC warm-ups, RWC and Six Nations. So even his worst season in terms of availability for Saints saw him play 1572 minutes of professional rugby!

For an international with 94 caps between England and the Lions by 32-years-old his durability has actually been very impressive.

Between his style of play and miles on the clock he will likely pick up more niggles now though. My hope with Lawes is that by the RWC we can move him into a settled role as the ideal impact sub for the modern game. He can wear the 19 or 20 shirt depending on the bench split, cover lock and blindside, offer a huge amount of impact and leadership from the bench.

Poorfour wrote:Eddie has said he's considering Slade at 12 - which I think most of us would support. That makes the choice of 13 interesting. Marchant would be the obvious choice, perhaps with Nowell and Malins on the wings. Northmore would give a bit more heft and let him use Marchant on the wing.

With the other experienced players missing a debutant in Northmore feels unlikely for R1 away from home.

I think it will either be 12.Slade 13.Marchant or 12.Atkinson 13.Slade in the centres.

As said several times I'm not the biggest fan of Slade at 12 as I think his strength is defending that 13 channel excellently. I rate Marchant very highly though, with the absentees I don't mind that partnership at all.

I'd also guess that Nowell will take May's spot on the left wing for a bit of experience alongside Steward and Malins too.

Atkinson would be pretty much a debutant too, though, and one without the benefit of familiarity with Smith.

But who are we kidding? It'll be Daly.

Just a thought if Lawes does not make the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought if Lawes does not make  the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

It will be Curry as per the AIs, or possibly Genge.

Poorfour wrote:Atkinson would be pretty much a debutant too, though, and one without the benefit of familiarity with Smith.

But who are we kidding? It'll be Daly.

But would allow Slade to stay at outside centre where he is at his best defending the 13 channel whilst Atkinson is very solid defensively at 12.

Mr Bounce wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought if Lawes does not make  the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

It will be Curry as per the AIs, or possibly Genge.

I don't think Genge is England captain material or certain to play is he? Is Marler fit?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought if Lawes does not make  the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

It will be Curry as per the AIs, or possibly Genge.

I don't think Genge is England captain material or certain to play is he? Is Marler fit?

I think Marler will be fit but I don't know how fit given the last time he came back post Covid. Captain likely to be Curry but wouldn't have a problem with Genge, if for no other reason than the way he provided so much leadership last summer when Ludlow was the nominal captain but went missing.

Other names - Dombrandt, Itoje?

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought if Lawes does not make  the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

It will be Curry as per the AIs, or possibly Genge.

I don't think Genge is England captain material or certain to play is he? Is Marler fit?

I think Marler will be fit but I don't know how fit given the last time he came back post Covid. Captain likely to be Curry but wouldn't have a problem with Genge, if for no other reason than the way he provided so much leadership last summer when Ludlow was the nominal captain but went missing.

Other names - Dombrandt, Itoje?

If he plays, Ludlam is a very good captain for Saints. One of the few players that have embraced the role and upped their performance since becoming the captain. I'd make it conditional on him getting his hair cut though.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought if Lawes does not make  the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

It will be Curry as per the AIs, or possibly Genge.

I don't think Genge is England captain material or certain to play is he? Is Marler fit?

I think Marler will be fit but I don't know how fit given the last time he came back post Covid. Captain likely to be Curry but wouldn't have a problem with Genge, if for no other reason than the way he provided so much leadership last summer when Ludlow was the nominal captain but went missing.

Other names - Dombrandt, Itoje?

If he plays, Ludlam is a very good captain for Saints. One of the few players that have embraced the role and upped their performance since becoming the captain.  I'd make it conditional on him getting his hair cut though.

Isnt that like Samson...?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought if Lawes does not make  the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

It will be Curry as per the AIs, or possibly Genge.

I don't think Genge is England captain material or certain to play is he? Is Marler fit?

I think Marler will be fit but I don't know how fit given the last time he came back post Covid. Captain likely to be Curry but wouldn't have a problem with Genge, if for no other reason than the way he provided so much leadership last summer when Ludlow was the nominal captain but went missing.

Other names - Dombrandt, Itoje?

If he plays, Ludlam is a very good captain for Saints. One of the few players that have embraced the role and upped their performance since becoming the captain.  I'd make it conditional on him getting his hair cut though.

Isnt that like Samson...?  

Well, he has got Middle Eastern roots through his father, so you never know there might be a long lost connection. Even without his hair, he managed to pull down the pillars of the temple, so still effective.

They're trialling new scrum laws apparently in the 6 Nations. Brings Leicester's illegal scrummaging into the norm now. Gets a bit technical but lifted this from Rugby Pass:

'With just a week to go to the start of the 2022 championships, World Rugby and Six Nations Rugby have confirmed the use of a closed law trial in this year’s men’s, women’s and U20s tournaments that aims to advance scrum stability and player welfare. Both hookers will now be required to ensure one foot (the ‘brake foot’) is extended towards the opposition during the crouch and bind phases of the scrum engagement sequence. Referees will penalise failure to comply with a free-kick.

A World Rugby statement on the Six Nations scrum tweak read: “Having consulted widely with leading players, including international hookers, scrum coaches and match officials, World Rugby wishes to understand whether this minor adjustment can have a positive impact on the number of scrum collapses and resets, and welfare outcomes.

“It is anticipated that the adoption of a ‘brake foot’ will help prevent players, in particular hookers, from experiencing excessive loading and pressures in the scrum. The trial comes with the full support of the participating teams, Six Nations Rugby and International Rugby Players.”

“Renowned scrum coach Mike Cron has been working with high-performance union scrum coaches throughout 2021, and specifically with Six Nations teams on behalf of World Rugby in advance of the championships to support them with the implementation of the trial, which has been welcomed by players.

“Axial loading, when front row players – primarily hookers – lean their heads onto opponents’ shoulders in between the referee’s ‘bind’ and ‘set’ calls placing pressure through necks, is outlawed. However, the dynamic nature of the scrum at the elite level, and in particular the need to balance tactical and stability considerations, has meant ‘axial loading’ has not been completely eliminated.'

Clearly done for safety reasons as stated above but I was half thinking that England may have rolled it out if they were under massive pressure and needed to roll the dice. I'm not an expert enough to know how this will affect the scrums, presumably means that weight of pack may be slightly lessened over technique of props?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just a thought if Lawes does not make  the first game against Scotland, who takes over the captaincy?

It will be Curry as per the AIs, or possibly Genge.

I don't think Genge is England captain material or certain to play is he? Is Marler fit?

I think Marler will be fit but I don't know how fit given the last time he came back post Covid. Captain likely to be Curry but wouldn't have a problem with Genge, if for no other reason than the way he provided so much leadership last summer when Ludlow was the nominal captain but went missing.

Other names - Dombrandt, Itoje?

If he plays, Ludlam is a very good captain for Saints. One of the few players that have embraced the role and upped their performance since becoming the captain.  I'd make it conditional on him getting his hair cut though.

Isnt that like Samson...?  

Well, he has got Middle Eastern roots through his father, so you never know there might be a long lost connection.   Even without his hair, he managed to pull down the pillars of the temple, so still effective.

Nah, keep the hair. Adds to his all for nothing, semi-wild man appearance. He has improved significantly since he let his hair grow. So maybe there is something to his ancient lineage.

Besides, it's not a mullet.

Not sure why you'd think England could push something like this through on their own, or why they would 71/2. The pack is likely to be inexperienced but it's hardly underpowered.

I've never played hooker, but from coaching scrums at youth level I suspect that the "brake foot" serves two purposes - it slows the engagement as the name implies, but it also means that the hooker is better able to support their own weight rather than relying on an opposing front row who have every interest in making it difficult... It should also reduces the ability of teams to put in an early shove, because the hooker won't be able to drive backwards with full force until the binds are completely settled and the brake foot is withdrawn.

In terms of what it means for the scrum, it's a further step away from the "hit" scrum of 10 years ago and towards one where technique and power endurance count more than explosive power. It probably slightly reduces the chances for a dominant scrum to win against the head, because the greater stability before Set will allow weaker scrums a little more leeway to get the ball in and out quickly.

So will we see smaller more technical hookers...mighty midgets of old coming back...ie harry Thacker

Poorfour wrote:Not sure why you'd think England could push something like this through on their own, or why they would 71/2. The pack is likely to be inexperienced but it's hardly underpowered.

I've never played hooker, but from coaching scrums at youth level I suspect that the "brake foot" serves two purposes - it slows the engagement as the name implies, but it also means that the hooker is better able to support their own weight rather than relying on an opposing front row who have every interest in making it difficult... It should also reduces the ability of teams to put in an early shove, because the hooker won't be able to drive backwards with full force until the binds are completely settled and the brake foot is withdrawn.

In terms of what it means for the scrum, it's a further step away from the "hit" scrum of 10 years ago and towards one where technique and power endurance count more than explosive power. It probably slightly reduces the chances for a dominant scrum to win against the head, because the greater stability before Set will allow weaker scrums a little more leeway to get the ball in and out quickly.

Apologies that's not what I meant. I meant that they may try the ever so slightly against the technical rules on scrums that Leicester have been doing very successfully, not implementing this trial.

Does anyone know who exactly is in the squad/training camp? and when is the match day squad named for the 6nations?

Yup.

Quick question, where do English fans rank Spencer at Bath? He always looks quality. I rate Bristol 9, Randall I think but Spencer is never mentioned.

Ha ha.
Training squad  listed above somewhere. Main changes to that being Ford and Daly for Farrell and May. Some more injuries in the squad plus Marler has covid again,  but no other cover called up at the moment. I would assume matchday squad announced Thursday.

Maine man wrote:Quick question, where do English fans rank Spencer at Bath? He always looks quality. I rate Bristol 9, Randall I think but Spencer is never mentioned.

English equivalent of John Cooney. Talented guy who seems to have a good range of ability but for some reason just isn't fancied by international management.

lostinwales wrote:Ha ha.
Training squad  listed above somewhere. Main changes to that being Ford and Daly for Farrell and May. Some more injuries in the squad plus Marler has covid again,  but no other cover called up at the moment. I would assume matchday squad announced Thursday.

Thank you.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Maine man wrote:Quick question, where do English fans rank Spencer at Bath? He always looks quality. I rate Bristol 9, Randall I think but Spencer is never mentioned.

English equivalent of John Cooney. Talented guy who seems to have a good range of ability but for some reason just isn't fancied by international management.

You couldn't have put it better!

Maine man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Maine man wrote:Quick question, where do English fans rank Spencer at Bath? He always looks quality. I rate Bristol 9, Randall I think but Spencer is never mentioned.

English equivalent of John Cooney. Talented guy who seems to have a good range of ability but for some reason just isn't fancied by international management.

You couldn't have put it better!

Per Chris Ashton commentating on the Bath v Harlequins game tonight, Spencer is a very talented individual but doesn't control the game at all which a top 9 needs to do. Barring injuries I suspect he has had his time and EJ is onto the next generation of scrumhalfs, with Raffi Quirke seeming to be everybodys choice as the future.

Play nice lads

Well I've just logged on and seen it, both deleted.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Maine man wrote:Quick question, where do English fans rank Spencer at Bath? He always looks quality. I rate Bristol 9, Randall I think but Spencer is never mentioned.

English equivalent of John Cooney. Talented guy who seems to have a good range of ability but for some reason just isn't fancied by international management.

It always felt like there was an opening for him as a younger version of Richard Wigglesworth, but it didn't quite work for him.  It's slightly disappointing (and baffling) because Wigglesworth is the human equivalent of a box kicking machine. Always felt that Spencer had more about him.

He's a funny one Spencer as most of us England fans rate him. Eddie has had him involved and moved away so there must be something missing. I've heard murmering that he's not vocal enough which is odd.

majesticimperialman wrote:Does anyone know who exactly is in the squad/training camp? and when is the match day squad named for the 6nations?

Mate, do you ever follow rugby news online, or even your own country’s team social media?

Honestly how any player at Bath this season could be in contention for an international place baffles me. Jones does seem very particular with his 9s, Robson only a got a couple of sniffs when there was practically no other option too.

As for maj not knowing who's in the camp ...it does change in an almost daily basis. It's getting to the point where they might as well name everyone England qualified (maybe leave a few bath players out) then see who's actually fit and turns up on the day.

RiscaGame wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Does anyone know who exactly is in the squad/training camp? and when is the match day squad named for the 6nations?

Mate, do you ever follow rugby news online, or even your own country’s team social media?

No i don't i get most of my news off bbc sport site. as for social media i am not very computer savy, and do not go on social media.

Beeb reporting that Marchant is now a doubt because of a positiver COVID test, got to wonder whether this is going to rip through the England camp. Could the game be in jeopardy?

You would imagine that it is going to definitely mean a shake up in the centres though, Atkinson or Northmore to partner Slade?

Marchant out is a big blow, worse than May. Quality centres are where England are struggling. Looks like Atkinson/Slade it is then.
Yes Marchant might have been picked on wing but him not being available greatly reduces options now. Radwen and Lynagh called up as wing cover.

9 Young
10 Smith
11 Daly
12 Atkinson
13 Slade
14 Malins
15 Steward

Still a good back line!
Where would Nowell fit in?

GeordieFalcon wrote:9 Young
10 Smith
11 Daly
12 Atkinson
13 Slade
14 Malins
15 Steward

Still a good back line!
Where would Nowell fit in?

I'd start Nowell on wing instead of Daley and have Daley bench cover for wing/centre/FB.

I feel that Atkinson is a limited player at this level but he is going to be a safe pair of hands if he is chosen.

As far as regular centers go we have Atkinson, Slade and Northmore as full timers, and Daly and Nowell as part timers. Noticeable that Jones called up 2 more wings, which suggests he was looking at Marchant on the wing anyway.

I've not seen much of Atkinson, but if he gives Smith an option who can straighten the line and suck in defenders but still distribute the ball then it might be what we need. Think I'd still have preferred Slade and Marchant, but that's probably an option for another game (though I could see Marchant as a bench option if, say, Malins starts or Ford is also on the bench)

I still don't know if the covid test alone will keep Marchant out if he has a clear test before the game.

Of course we know that Marler probably should not have played vs SA as the virus did have some effect on him, and we need to avoid that situation reoccurring.

Not being a medical expert but assuming it's the Omicron variant it seemingly has zero adverse effect on lots of people so positive test might not affect them physically from playing. Lots of assumptions there of course and until negative test won't be allowed to play anyway.
Marler did look well under cooked v SA so was that Covid or just lack of general fitness. Those chicken runs aren't what there're cracked up to be...

lostinwales wrote:I still don't know if the covid test alone will keep Marchant out if he has a clear test before the game.

Of course we know that Marler probably should not have played vs SA as the virus did have some effect on him, and we need to avoid that situation reoccurring.

It depends on the variant and how badly a player has been affected, I guess. Marler's autumn case was pre-Omicron, IIRC, but if they have both caught Omicron this time around and had their boosters the main risk is a loss of training time with the team.

I'd expect Marler to play if at all possible given the lack of experience in the front row. Marchant may miss out because the backline needs more time together, so I could see him on the bench.

It is a set of backs which is lacking caps and I think that that may sway Jones in a few selections. Youngs, Ford, Daly, Slade, Nowell have big ticks in the been there box.

Given the weather is meant currently to be a bit wet and windy there must also be the temptation to whack a load of part time full backs in there too, Malins, Nowell on the wing with Steward at the back. Play Daly in OC and have him dropping back to help diffuse the bombs of course.

lostinwales wrote:I feel that Atkinson is a limited player at this level but he is going to be a safe pair of hands if he is chosen.

As far as regular centers go we have Atkinson, Slade and Northmore as full timers, and Daly and Nowell as part timers. Noticeable that Jones called up 2 more wings, which suggests he was looking at Marchant on the wing anyway.

That or he has run out of what he considers to be viable centre options. Unless he brings on Joseph or Devoto from out of the cold he's going to be selecting a youngster like Kelly or Ojomoh. Seems like he wants to keep Radwan and Lynagh involved as he sees them with a) a future at this level and b) more able to slot in this tournament.

I'd guess;

9. Youngs
10. Smith
11. Malins
12. Atkinson
13. Slade
14. Nowell
15. Steward

21. Quirke
22. Ford
23. Daly

Gives Smith a range of options ball in hand but also some defensive stability. Atkinson is a short term option but he's a good all round option albeit lacking in pace, those around him should make up for that and Slade for his faults is normally a very good defensive operator in the 13 channel. We might be missing a little of the top end speed with that backline though Delay could inject a bit from the bench. I guess that's the problem with no Marchant and no May.

That's backline I'd go with and bench but of course that means 5-3 split and Jones seem to go with 6-2.

Personaly i would like to see Louis Lynagh get a chance maybe off the bench. I must say i amnot a big fan of picking player just because his father was a great player himself...perfect example Paul Grayson a great fly half for saints and England.

But his son has not been a big hit for England as he?

Well Marler is back in training which I must say is a huge plus. Rodd looks good but having Marler coming from the bench could be huge. Lawes looks unlikely to make it back apparently. Time for Barbeary, Curry and Dombrandt to rule the roost.

So does that assume Genge starts at LH?

I'm assuming that Geordie. I'd prefer him to start now due to his time in camp and I think that will be what makes up the coaches' minds. For the backrow, thats my choice but not the one i necessarily expect.

Im wondering if Lawes isnt fit...will Eddie go like for like "ish" with Isiekwe..?

I think it's a strong possibility. In my head 2 positions are pretty much certainties there in Curry and Dombrandt. It really could be anyone out of Barbeary, Isiekwe, Simmonds or Ludlam though. I won't be putting my mortgage on it.

Id actually like to see Ludlum and Curry on the flanks. With Barbeary off the bench.

Dombrandt can be the 3rd jumper.