English 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/05/six-nations-rugby-covid-rob-baxter

A potential answer to a potential problem. Baxter has said that if there is a risk of cancellations or playing in front of 1 man and his dog you may as well play all the games in England.

I suppose an interesting suggestion. If they could agree a slice of revenue from whichever grounds would host along with some teams giving up home advantage would people want to see this? It doesn't reduce the risk at all, merely increases it surely, gives England an advantage. It's unlikely the Government will bring in further restrictions as their hands are tied by the back benchers so reduces the risk of last minute changes. Just a big melting pot of cross contamination.


'Rob Baxter, Exeter’s director of rugby, believes that playing this season’s Six Nations in one country has “got to be better than cancelling it”.

The tournament is due to kick off in Dublin and Edinburgh on 5 February but currently finds itself shrouded in uncertainty. Under current Welsh Government restrictions imposed due to the pandemic and, specifically, the omicron variant, Wales would have to play scheduled home games against Scotland, France and Italy behind closed doors. Scotland are in a similar position for games at Murrayfield, while it has been reported that Wales could consider moving their home against Scotland, France and Italy to England.

Financial implications of behind-closed-doors home games for the Welsh Rugby Union would be significant. They faced an identical situation for last season’s tournament, with the shutters being down for matches against Ireland and England. Full crowds were, however, allowed at the Principality Stadium for Wales’ recent Autumn Nations Series before fresh restrictions took effect from Boxing Day.

Capacity crowds are currently allowed in England, provided spectators can prove full vaccination status or provide a negative lateral flow test. Against such a backdrop, playing the whole competition – it takes place across five weekends between early February and mid-March – in one country with permitted crowds has also been mooted in some quarters.

“The whole beauty of the Six Nations has been that change of environment, that change of weather conditions, going to play in Scotland, Wales, Ireland – those are the great challenges,” said Baxter. “That’s what makes the Six Nations such a great competition to win. You’ve seen French teams in that one week they can beat anyone in the world in Paris, and then the next week it doesn’t go quite so well in Cardiff. That’s the beauty of the tournament, that’s what from a rugby perspective I am sure we would all want to see happen.

“That said, we can’t all sit here and pretend the world is in an ideal place at the moment. For the national bodies, their responsibility goes beyond the professional sport, it goes right down to grassroots rugby, so if playing the tournament provides a level of income that cancelling it or no crowds doesn’t create, then we’ve got to look at the next best scenario. If the next best scenario is playing it in one country, where you can have sellout crowds, you can raise some revenue and you can keep that income stream going for all the bodies, then it’s got to be better than cancelling it.


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“I think with every sporting body, it’s revenue that is the biggest thing that has been damaged, so anything that can keep revenue online has got to be preferable to just binning things for a season,” Baxter added. “We’ve all had to try and find a way to keep going, to try and keep revenue coming in. It’s the same with any business, you’ve got to explore those options.”

Genge is only 25 too, it's still so young for a prop. Marler was a brilliant U20 prop too, but it really took until his mid 20s onwards for him to dominate at international level, then he took his break

BamBam wrote:Genge is only 25 too, it's still so young for a prop. Marler was a brilliant U20 prop too, but it really took until his mid 20s onwards for him to dominate at international level, then he took his break

Genge is 27

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:You know what will happen....

Next world cup cycle ...we'll have top class 9's, 10's and 12's galore....and no props etc...

To be fair the production line for 10s looks good with Marcus Smith, Finn Smith and Orlando Bailey all getting regular game time at Prem level. George Ford is still in his 20s as well so there's no real need to ditch him.

Props looks decent enough. Only Marler is over 30 of the current preferred options and then not by much. Stuart, Rodd and Heyes should all develop significantly more as they move into their prime years. There's some options behind them.

9s and 12s still look a little light though...

Will Haydon Wood up here aswell Sam, the 10 spot is his for the rest fo the season.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Genge is only 25 too, it's still so young for a prop. Marler was a brilliant U20 prop too, but it really took until his mid 20s onwards for him to dominate at international level, then he took his break

Genge is 27

Still on the young side for a prop though. He'll only be 32 by the 2027 RWC for instance.

Trevor Nyakane was 32 for the first Lions test, it was only his sixth start for the Boks.

Mtwarira was 34 when he started in a RWC final win.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Genge is only 25 too, it's still so young for a prop. Marler was a brilliant U20 prop too, but it really took until his mid 20s onwards for him to dominate at international level, then he took his break

Genge is 27

Still on the young side for a prop though. He'll only be 32 by the 2027 RWC for instance.

Trevor Nyakane was 32 for the first Lions test, it was only his sixth start for the Boks.

Mtwarira was 34 when he started in a RWC final win.

I wasnt saying hes old KC, just correcting the age.

I'd say genge has been our best player so far. V good in the scrum. Hard carrying. That pass.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd say genge has been our best player so far. V good in the scrum. Hard carrying. That pass.

And if we are talking of such things - his reaction to the Negri injury is also a big plus although it is not a playing issue. (Not sure 'giving him a slap to see if he's awake' was necessarily the right option but you know what I mean)

Lol. Very good reaction.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Genge is only 25 too, it's still so young for a prop. Marler was a brilliant U20 prop too, but it really took until his mid 20s onwards for him to dominate at international level, then he took his break

Genge is 27

When did that happen

Still youngish

BamBam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Genge is only 25 too, it's still so young for a prop. Marler was a brilliant U20 prop too, but it really took until his mid 20s onwards for him to dominate at international level, then he took his break

Genge is 27

When did that happen

Still youngish

just remember the mind is the second thing to go……

I'm scared to ask a doctor what is first

BamBam wrote:I'm scared to ask a doctor what is first

It's the first time it's ever happened.

BamBam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Genge is only 25 too, it's still so young for a prop. Marler was a brilliant U20 prop too, but it really took until his mid 20s onwards for him to dominate at international level, then he took his break

Genge is 27

When did that happen

Still youngish

We've all lost the last 2 years.....

Great news Jack Willis is in the Wasps squad to play Quins tomorrow. A year on from that horrendous injury playingfor England against Italy.

Looking ahead albeit with my biased Wasps hat on.
A WC back row of Tom & Jack Willis, Alfie Barbeary, Tom Curry & Alex Dombrandt would not b too shabby

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Looking ahead albeit with my biased Wasps hat on.
A WC back row of Tom & Jack Willis, Alfie Barbeary, Tom Curry & Alex Dombrandt would not b too shabby

Could you please go ask Mrs. Willis to breed us an inside centre?
And we need him grown and ready by the 2023 RWC.....

Big Trev, moving into Wasps country in April, will I get hunted down if I an seen with my Saints shirt on?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Big Trev, moving into Wasps country in April, will I get hunted down if I an seen with my Saints shirt on?

Coventry? I'll doubt most will even know what it is.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Big Trev, moving into Wasps country in April, will I get hunted down if I an seen with my Saints shirt on?

Coventry? I'll doubt most will even know what it is.

Coventry? I think some people know what a Coventry is.

p.s. You will only get hunted by the natives from north of the DMZ (aka. A14).

Mentioned on comms for the Bath vs Tigers match that Underhill has started contact training again with Bath. Presumably that means he's recovered from the concussion symptoms, gone through RTP protocols and is building back to fitness for a return on the pitch.

Would be great news if so. His most recent England performances weren't his peak standard but still very solid and he has such a high ceiling at his best as we know.

I think Underhill would also be really useful for this side as he tends to perform very well from the bench. His physicality in contact against tiring players can be very effective. The England bench needs that type of impetus from the bench at the moment.

king_carlos wrote:Mentioned on comms for the Bath vs Tigers match that Underhill has started contact training again with Bath. Presumably that means he's recovered from the concussion symptoms, gone through RTP protocols and is building back to fitness for a return on the pitch.

Would be great news if so. His most recent England performances weren't his peak standard but still very solid and he has such a high ceiling at his best as we know.

I think Underhill would also be really useful for this side as he tends to perform very well from the bench. His physicality in contact against tiring players can be very effective. The England bench needs that type of impetus from the bench at the moment.

Agree about his impact.  But I just hope his rehab is slow and methodical.  There is nothing gained by rushing him back.  

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Big Trev, moving into Wasps country in April, will I get hunted down if I an seen with my Saints shirt on?

Coventry? I'll doubt most will even know what it is.

Coventry?  I think some people know what a Coventry is.

p.s. You will only get hunted by the natives from north of the DMZ (aka. A14).

Doc, I like to be spoken to, so not Coventry, although it does have a CV postcode. Going a few miles south of the birthplace of the game we all love Rugby.

Close enough to Northampton that I can get a season ticket (or two, missus loves to go to a game) for next season. I even get a discount these days.

doctor_grey wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Looking ahead albeit with my biased Wasps hat on.
A WC back row of Tom & Jack Willis, Alfie Barbeary, Tom Curry & Alex Dombrandt would not b too shabby

Could you please go ask Mrs. Willis to breed us an inside centre?
And we need him grown and ready by the 2023 RWC.....

Wasps have Ollie Hartley just coming through at 12 and they have huge hopes for him....

19, 6'4 ...we shall watch with interest...

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Big Trev, moving into Wasps country in April, will I get hunted down if I an seen with my Saints shirt on?

Coventry? I'll doubt most will even know what it is.

Coventry?  I think some people know what a Coventry is.

p.s. You will only get hunted by the natives from north of the DMZ (aka. A14).

Doc, I like to be spoken to, so not Coventry, although it does have a CV postcode. Going a few miles south of the birthplace of the game we all love Rugby.

Close enough to Northampton that I can get a season ticket (or two, missus loves to go to a game) for next season. I even get a discount these days.

So not moving to the heart of darkness, eh? I certainly hope the move works for you.  More or less about a half-hour by car from the second holiest place in Rugby, the actual town/school being the first.  

I'm not so far from qualifying from the discount myself.  Unfortunately, my commute to the Gardens is just a wee bit longer than yours.  But, hopefully in the spring, I might take a sabbatical and bunk down at my old man's for a while, presuming he is not in gaol.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Looking ahead albeit with my biased Wasps hat on.
A WC back row of Tom & Jack Willis, Alfie Barbeary, Tom Curry & Alex Dombrandt would not b too shabby

Could you please go ask Mrs. Willis to breed us an inside centre?
And we need him grown and ready by the 2023 RWC.....

Wasps have Ollie Hartley just coming through at 12 and they have huge hopes for him....

19, 6'4 ...we shall watch with interest...

Quick, give him to the Russian Olympic Committee for, ahem, additional fitness and strength training!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Looking ahead albeit with my biased Wasps hat on.
A WC back row of Tom & Jack Willis, Alfie Barbeary, Tom Curry & Alex Dombrandt would not b too shabby

Could you please go ask Mrs. Willis to breed us an inside centre?
And we need him grown and ready by the 2023 RWC.....

Wasps have Ollie Hartley just coming through at 12 and they have huge hopes for him....

19, 6'4 ...we shall watch with interest...

Yes a real shame he picked up an ankle injury just prior to the U-20 6Ns.
He has been promoted to first team squad a few days ago & it will be great to see him play next season.

Training squad for the Wales game.

1.Genge, Marler, Rodd
2.LCD, George, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4.Itoje Launchbury
5.Isiekwe, Ewels, Chessum
6.Lawes, Barbeary
7.Curry
8.Domrandt, Simmonds

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith, Ford, Bailey

11.Nowell, Daly
12.Tuilagi
13.Slade, Marchant
14.Malins, Radwan, Lynagh
15.Steward, Furbank

Atkinson misses out as Manu returns, only 3 centres selected. OHC also misses out for Radwan and Lynagh.

Nowell must be fit then which is good news with the winger situation.

Isiekwe returns as well as Launchbury and Lawes. No Jonny Hill yet though.

Ludlam still injured but not replaced so only one openside in the squad in Curry which is a change from the days of 3 in the 23.

I hope Lynagh gets a chance even if it's off the bench.

I also would like to see Bailey in the side for Ford.

Is Freddie Steward injured?

No Steward is in the training squad

king_carlos wrote:

only 3 centres selected.

Whos gonna play on the other wing then?

majesticimperialman wrote:I hope Lynagh gets a chance even if it's off the bench.

I also would like to see Bailey in the side for Ford.

Is Freddie Steward injured?

Since when is a 6N game against Wales a chance for experimentation? If Smith goes down in the first minute we want Ford a player as good as Smith coming on not a talented youth thrown into deep end on his debut.

We should go as strong as possible and look for a statement win at home. Build some momentum ahead of two very tough games coming up swiftly after. There's going to be enough changes with with the likes of Lawes and Launchbury coming back in.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I hope Lynagh gets a chance even if it's off the bench.

I also would like to see Bailey in the side for Ford.

Is Freddie Steward injured?

Since when is a 6N game against Wales a chance for experimentation? If Smith goes down in the first minute we want Ford a player as good as Smith coming on not a talented youth thrown into deep end on his debut.

We should go as strong as possible and look for a statement win at home. Build some momentum ahead of two very tough games coming up swiftly after. There's going to be enough changes with with the likes of Lawes and Launchbury coming back in.

I understand what you are saying  Re Ford, Bailey.

I was making the point we are only Playing Wales. Not the All Blacks.

Sorry, missed Steward there by accident. Amended that posted squad!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I hope Lynagh gets a chance even if it's off the bench.

I also would like to see Bailey in the side for Ford.

Is Freddie Steward injured?

Since when is a 6N game against Wales a chance for experimentation? If Smith goes down in the first minute we want Ford a player as good as Smith coming on not a talented youth thrown into deep end on his debut.

We should go as strong as possible and look for a statement win at home. Build some momentum ahead of two very tough games coming up swiftly after. There's going to be enough changes with with the likes of Lawes and Launchbury coming back in.

100% agree, Smith is still finding his feet this 6N's and what we do not need is an even less experienced 10 covering him! Ford is more than good enough and will play.

We should be looking to smash the Welsh. The loss to Scotland should still hurt and I hope the players use that.

I wouldn't pick Ford for the bench either, I'd have Slade covering 10. I would prefer centre and back 3 options. Ford for me either starts or doesn't make the 23.

I wouldn't want Slade covering 10. He can barely cover centre.

Yeah I'd not want Malins or Slade covering 10. We've got the two best flyhalfs in the Prem available have them both in the squad and keep competition high. The time for experimentation is the summer tour, the 6N is the time for us to be looking to play our best rugby.

I think there’s a distinction to be made here between “experimentation” and “preparation”.

Eddie is looking ahead to an RWC tournament where you will still have the restrictions on calling up replacements (i.e. a player can only join the squad if another player leaves it) but COVID could easily lead to teams losing a player in any position for a week but with a good chance of returning the following week.

We’ve already seen that happen with Marler. Imagine if it happened with Smith or Ford during the tournament. Who is then the backup flyhalf? Obviously, it depends a bit on whether Farrell travels, but assuming Eddie only has two full time fly halves in his squad, he needs to know that someone else can provide backup.

This 6N may actually be the best place to find out. It’s a proper tournament with all the stresses that entails. It’s far enough out from the RWC that a couple of losses won’t dent momentum. The squad is already pretty experimental as a result of injuries.

I’m not saying I necessarily agree with the tactic - but given the way Eddie’s mind and squad selection work, I can see the reasoning behind trying something like that and it’s sound in the longer term.

Trouble is as we all know with Jones, prep or experimentation is muddled at best. There's been games notably last 6N(2021) when he should have tried new players against Italy but didn't. He tried Radwen in AI against Tonga and nothing else. He has Randall and at times Quirke in squad but plays Youngs for 80 mins. Players in and out of squad but don't get game time.

As for Ford, he should be on bench for Wales. If Smith goes down especially early then Slade not answer. Trouble is it does compromise bench options as a 9 will be there as well(no doubt Randall as Saint Ben of Youngs no doubt start) so assuming a 5-3 split at best leaves one other back on bench. Daley most likely if he doesn't start.

Good news is Manu is fit and firing. Bad news is we've heard it so many times before. Will he last a game? He has to play but there's always that lingering doubt.

Think we already know the emergency fly half cover: Furbank.

I really rate Ford but he's clearly the third choice FH so would more than likely not be going to the WC. As soon as Farrell is fit, he's be out of any future squad.

As Poorfour mentioned, it would be much more beneficial having Slade/Malins as backups over Ford. I also think they would both do a fine job, they're both excellent 10's.

king_carlos wrote:Training squad for the Wales game.

1.Genge, Marler, Rodd
2.LCD, George, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4.Itoje Launchbury
5.Isiekwe, Ewels, Chessum
6.Lawes, Barbeary
7.Curry
8.Domrandt, Simmonds

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith, Ford, Bailey

11.Nowell, Daly
12.Tuilagi
13.Slade, Marchant
14.Malins, Radwan, Lynagh
15.Steward, Furbank

Atkinson misses out as Manu returns, only 3 centres selected. OHC also misses out for Radwan and Lynagh.

Nowell must be fit then which is good news with the winger situation.

Isiekwe returns as well as Launchbury and Lawes. No Jonny Hill yet though.

Ludlam still injured but not replaced so only one openside in the squad in Curry which is a change from the days of 3 in the 23.

That looks like a very talented group. Take out ewels and Youngs and add Jonny hill and Jack Willis in the second 7 slot and of coarse a young 12 to learn and he's pretty much got an excellent squad. I hope Rafi has an excellent week and establishes himself, the game seems more exciting when he's in the pitch.

On another note, is heyes a good scrummager as I'm not convinced on Stuart, any tigers fans give me run down on whether he's ready or not.

Yoda wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Training squad for the Wales game.

1.Genge, Marler, Rodd
2.LCD, George, Blamire
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Heyes
4.Itoje Launchbury
5.Isiekwe, Ewels, Chessum
6.Lawes, Barbeary
7.Curry
8.Domrandt, Simmonds

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith, Ford, Bailey

11.Nowell, Daly
12.Tuilagi
13.Slade, Marchant
14.Malins, Radwan, Lynagh
15.Steward, Furbank

Atkinson misses out as Manu returns, only 3 centres selected. OHC also misses out for Radwan and Lynagh.

Nowell must be fit then which is good news with the winger situation.

Isiekwe returns as well as Launchbury and Lawes. No Jonny Hill yet though.

Ludlam still injured but not replaced so only one openside in the squad in Curry which is a change from the days of 3 in the 23.

That looks like a very talented group. Take out ewels and Youngs and add Jonny hill and Jack Willis in the second 7 slot and of coarse a young 12 to learn and he's pretty much got an excellent squad. I hope Rafi has an excellent week and establishes himself, the game seems more exciting when he's in the pitch.

On another note, is heyes a good scrummager as I'm not convinced on Stuart, any tigers fans give me run down on whether he's ready or not.

Heyes is a good scrummager, particularly considering his age as he's only 22 but has been playing in the Tigers first team as Cole's understudy for three years already. He's not ready to set the world alight but I'd expect him to hold his side of the scrum against the Welsh looseheads, what the Irish and French bring might be more testing.

He needs to work on his loose game as currently that is merely acceptable as opposed to stand out. He's mobile and gets through the work but there's an absence of big hits, notable carries and turnovers. Ten years ago he'd be right in there, twenty years ago a revelation but these days props are expected to have a USP above the normal bits at international level.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I really rate Ford but he's clearly the third choice FH so would more than likely not be going to the WC. As soon as Farrell is fit, he's be out of any future squad.

As Poorfour mentioned, it would be much more beneficial having Slade/Malins as backups over Ford. I also think they would both do a fine job, they're both excellent 10's.

I'm not really fussed about whether Ford goes to the world cup or not I'm fussed about us winning on Saturday. The team is under development and the world cup 18 months away. What we need is wins and momentum. Experiment to much and lose on Saturday and the young guns will be savaged in the media. Golden boy Smith might still be exempt or it might be the time they turn on him who knows. Losing isn't beneficial either way so don't allow the possibility of us playing without a specialist 10 whilst the attack is being remodeled. It's not like there's a specialist centre who will lose out, Daly will be the cover all options from 23 player.

I also disagree that both Slade and Malins are excellent 10s as both are currently at best third choice for their clubs with Malins more like fourth. They were both prospect 10s at age group level but didn't have the ability to play that position at upper end club level but were to talented to cast aside so their skills were refocused to other positions.

Malins had the attributes to be a great 10. Still think he would have been best to focus on that but you of course have to allow for other players too. Saracens were stacked with great players through cheating and hence he was used as a jack of all trades for a fair while. If he'd been somewhere else he may well have found himself first choice fly half quickly. But he needs to have time there for his club should he want that position. He isn't a winger for me at this level.

A number of these young guns are already better than their experienced alternatives too. 'You don't win anything with kids'.

Even if Malins and Slade were good enough to cover 10 in the Six Nations, which they really aren't, them replacing Smith would leave us with no competent goal kickers on the pitch. Not ideal in a tournament that frequently has very tight scorelines, from games played in poor conditions, that are decided by goal kicking.

"Golden boy Smith"........so salty! lol

I don't really give a shoot about this 6N tbh...I'd prefer us to build for WC. Malins and SLade are excellent options for 3rd choice backup.

The likelihood is they will never be required anyway and we're arguing over nothing.

I really dislike that everything needs to revolve around the WC. It can't just be next game but you should always be looking to win it along with ensuring that there's one eye on the future. With England's resources that's not impossible by a long shot.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Golden boy Smith"........so salty! lol

I don't really give a shoot about this 6N tbh...I'd prefer us to build for WC. Malins and SLade are excellent options for 3rd choice backup.

The likelihood is they will never be required anyway and we're arguing over nothing.

Quite probably. 

I guess the key difference here is you're not interested in the 6N whereas I think a win is more important than testing world cup coverage.