6 Nations Round 4 - England v Ireland

Collapse2005 wrote:I reckon England are favorites. When did they last lose at home? Anyone know? They beat SA and Wales there recently so it will take a big game for us to win on Saturday. Ireland are good enough but will need a top performance.

king_carlos wrote:Delighted that Launchbury is viewed as fit to return. His maul work will be vital against Ireland. A shame that Underhill isn't ready though.

I'd personally pick Barbeary ahead of Simmonds but he'd be the favourite to miss out alongside Chessum and Heyes. Tigers bias but I'd pick Heyes over Stuart. He's already the better player with a higher ceiling IMO.

1.Genge
2.George
3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury
5.Itoje
6.Lawes (c)
7.Curry (vc)
8.Dombrandt

9.Randall
10.Smith

11.Nowell
12.Slade
13.Daly
14.Malins
15.Steward

16.Blamire
17.Marler
18.Stuart
19.Ewels
20.Simmonds
21.Youngs
22.Ford
23.Marchant

That seems most likely.

Same rubbish midfield and lack of pace on the wings but the pack still looks strong. The backs were rock solid defensively against Wales and very good under the high ball which will be important against Ireland.

I'd have Ireland as narrow favourites due to their far superior midfield. Elsewhere the sides look fairly well matched and home advantage usually counts for a lot in the Six Nations which is in England's favour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I reckon England are favorites. When did they last lose at home? Anyone know? They beat SA and Wales there recently so it will take a big game for us to win on Saturday. Ireland are good enough but will need a top performance.

Scotland off the top of my head. Albeit that was covid so more a neutral venue.

king_carlos wrote:7.5

It's come through the RFU website so is definitely correct if that's what you mean by true? Orlando Bailey also training with the 26-man squad as an apprentice player.

I'd probably make those same changes.

On the midfield though. Marchant did very little with his start to be honest and Daly has at least looked strong defensively at 13.

I'd be interested to see Daly at 13 in a better balanced backline. If given some space he can be a dangerous runner, similar to JJ back in 2015 and 2016. Despite plenty of good ball against Wales the backs just couldn't manufacture that space.

Slade just isn't a 12, sadly.

king_carlos wrote:Delighted that Launchbury is viewed as fit to return. His maul work will be vital against Ireland. A shame that Underhill isn't ready though.

I'd personally pick Barbeary ahead of Simmonds but he'd be the favourite to miss out alongside Chessum and Heyes. Tigers bias but I'd pick Heyes over Stuart. He's already the better player with a higher ceiling IMO.

1.Genge
2.George
3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury
5.Itoje
6.Lawes (c)
7.Curry (vc)
8.Dombrandt

9.Randall
10.Smith

11.Nowell
12.Slade
13.Daly
14.Malins
15.Steward

16.Blamire
17.Marler
18.Stuart
19.Ewels
20.Simmonds
21.Youngs
22.Ford
23.Marchant

That seems most likely.

Same rubbish midfield and lack of pace on the wings but the pack still looks strong. The backs were rock solid defensively against Wales and very good under the high ball which will be important against Ireland.

I'd have Ireland as narrow favourites due to their far superior midfield. Elsewhere the sides look fairly well matched and home advantage usually counts for a lot in the Six Nations which is in England's favour.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do agree that it looked very close to clicking vs wales (quotes from the group) but was still frustrating to watch. Just think we'd look better with some more round pegs in round holes.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do agree that it looked very close to clicking vs wales (quotes from the group) but was still frustrating to watch. Just think we'd look better with some more round pegs in round holes.

Despite my frustrations I do think the new game plan has shown moments of very nearly clicking as you say. They just can't quite connect it together currently though which is so frustrating. We'll have quick ball from the forwards but the backs look disjointed. Then the backs will look very well structured but the forwards get knocked back causing slow ball. They build lots of pressure and get a lineout close. Then fudge the lineout. Or the same with a scrum.

Key moments going astray.

yappysnap wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do agree that it looked very close to clicking vs wales (quotes from the group) but was still frustrating to watch. Just think we'd look better with some more round pegs in round holes.

Despite my frustrations I do think the new game plan has shown moments of very nearly clicking as you say. They just can't quite connect it together currently though which is so frustrating. We'll have quick ball from the forwards but the backs look disjointed. Then the backs will look very well structured but the forwards get knocked back causing slow ball. They build lots of pressure and get a lineout close. Then fudge the lineout. Or the same with a scrum.

Key moments going astray.

Yes, if you think back to the Wales game then we had created a lot of pressure early, Wales get the yellow card and we opt for a scrum close to their line which was a poor call. Scrums had already been iffy, and it gave them a chance to waste time which ate up the clock and then we lost it anyway!

With more experience and better game management the players might have realised a lineout or tap and go was a better option to keep the pressure on there.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:I reckon England are favorites. When did they last lose at home? Anyone know? They beat SA and Wales there recently so it will take a big game for us to win on Saturday. Ireland are good enough but will need a top performance.

Scotland off the top of my head. Albeit that was covid so more a neutral venue.

Yeah and before that maybe NZ, basically not too many losses.

Collapse2005 wrote:
The statistic being quoted in the media is that England have had two 6N losses since 2010, one in 2018 against Ireland and last year against Scotland.
The English pack with Launchbury back in the frame looks strong and Ireland will miss their two front rowers. England will target the Irish ruck and Gibson Park's pace with passing the ball. French refs seem to allow more of a contest at the rucks, so will be interesting to watch.

nlpnlp wrote:I think criticism of Slade at 12 is fair, but then he isn't a 12 - Eddie won't for some reason pick Mark Atkinson the best/only 'natural' 12 available to England currently.

Our backline would look quite different if Quirke, Watson, May, Farrell, Tuilagi and Cokanasiga were all fit, in form and available.  

I suspect England's gameplan will be to kick high ball to the diminutive Michael Lowry and hope we can outjump him.  Which means Youngs to start.  A lot will depend on the quality of our kicking, chase and competition in the air.  Unfortunately, the weather forecast looks quite mild for Saturday.  It is defintiely all change from the early 2000's when Ireland played the kick chase game and England played all the rugby.

Collapse2005 wrote:My guess it it will be Lowe, Keenan and Conway with Hansen on the bench. Lowe is the only left footed back three player in the squad and his huge left boot might see him start. Hansen is a left winger but is right footed so might be pipped for that reason.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:My guess it it will be Lowe, Keenan and Conway with Hansen on the bench. Lowe is the only left footed back three player in the squad and his huge left boot might see him start. Hansen is a left winger but is right footed so might be pipped for that reason.

I really love the balance of the Ireland side right now, especially the pack. Huge test for us this one, I'm really looking forward to it.

Ireland are clearly a bit more ahead in their planning whatever happens and I'd take a loss much better than losing to Wales.

Martin Gleeson is aiming for nothing less than a revolution. The England attack coach has been tasked by Eddie Jones with creating a style of play that has never been seen in the international game’s 151-year history.

Jones, the England head coach, has long believed that shirt numbers should be irrelevant outside the set-piece. Now Gleeson, a former Great Britain and England rugby league international, is attempting to put that formation-free vision into practice, whereby any player can fill in at scrum-half or first receiver, all in the name of quick ball and heads-up rugby.

“We want to try to play a new way of rugby,” says Gleeson, 41. “We have got a vision of how we want to play where we are not copying off anyone else. We want to play a certain way, where we want to generate quick ball, and it does not really matter who is going in at nine.

“Because when you get it right it is hard to defend and you are playing what you see. You are not playing to any predetermined pattern. We can look up and play what’s in front of us at that time and judge accordingly. We want to play where the space is.

“It is harder to implement and there’s a lot of work to do, but once you get it you become more dangerous and hard to defend.”
....

If a foundation was laid during an unbeaten autumn, this Six Nations is being used to add “layers”. The first focus was on improving England’s kick return, and Gleeson says their numbers have “gone through the roof”.

But getting to the opposition 22 is not the problem. Instead, it is England’s red-zone efficiency which is holding them back, with a tally of 1.2 and 1.3 points per visit to the opposition 22 against Scotland and Wales. “On kick return, we made a few breaks off being direct and making short passes to get us on the front foot and playing to the edge if the space was there,” Gleeson says.

“At the moment, we are getting the ball off kick return and getting down in the 22, but that’s the area where we are not taking the next step and capitalising on the work we are doing to get there. We have got a couple of layers we want to add on. If you go too much too early you will get completely lost.”

The instinctive skills of Marcus Smith at fly-half are central to this vision. Coming from a rugby league background, Gleeson loves Smith’s willingness to attack the line, but at the same time his unpredictability poses a challenge for team-mates and opponents alike. “He has his goose step and if someone is not used to that, who is playing outside, then he may overrun him,” Gleeson says. “He has got to get used to the players around him and the players have to get used to him and the way he plays when he gets the ball.”

Rugby Fan wrote:Interview with attack coach Martin Gleeson:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/03/09/england-attack-coach-martin-gleeson-honing-new-style-rugby-has/

Martin Gleeson is aiming for nothing less than a revolution. The England attack coach has been tasked by Eddie Jones with creating a style of play that has never been seen in the international game’s 151-year history.

Jones, the England head coach, has long believed that shirt numbers should be irrelevant outside the set-piece. Now Gleeson, a former Great Britain and England rugby league international, is attempting to put that formation-free vision into practice, whereby any player can fill in at scrum-half or first receiver, all in the name of quick ball and heads-up rugby.

“We want to try to play a new way of rugby,” says Gleeson, 41. “We have got a vision of how we want to play where we are not copying off anyone else. We want to play a certain way, where we want to generate quick ball, and it does not really matter who is going in at nine.

“Because when you get it right it is hard to defend and you are playing what you see. You are not playing to any predetermined pattern. We can look up and play what’s in front of us at that time and judge accordingly. We want to play where the space is.

“It is harder to implement and there’s a lot of work to do, but once you get it you become more dangerous and hard to defend.”
....

If a foundation was laid during an unbeaten autumn, this Six Nations is being used to add “layers”. The first focus was on improving England’s kick return, and Gleeson says their numbers have “gone through the roof”.

But getting to the opposition 22 is not the problem. Instead, it is England’s red-zone efficiency which is holding them back, with a tally of 1.2 and 1.3 points per visit to the opposition 22 against Scotland and Wales. “On kick return, we made a few breaks off being direct and making short passes to get us on the front foot and playing to the edge if the space was there,” Gleeson says.

“At the moment, we are getting the ball off kick return and getting down in the 22, but that’s the area where we are not taking the next step and capitalising on the work we are doing to get there. We have got a couple of layers we want to add on. If you go too much too early you will get completely lost.”

The instinctive skills of Marcus Smith at fly-half are central to this vision. Coming from a rugby league background, Gleeson loves Smith’s willingness to attack the line, but at the same time his unpredictability poses a challenge for team-mates and opponents alike. “He has his goose step and if someone is not used to that, who is playing outside, then he may overrun him,” Gleeson says. “He has got to get used to the players around him and the players have to get used to him and the way he plays when he gets the ball.”

king_carlos wrote:
Smith is a special talent and 100% deserves the run of starts at 10 but I thought his work on phase play against Wales consistently defined by that lack of organisation/communication and playing way to flat against a good defence was a pretty naive performance. That's absolutely fine for a 10 starting his 3rd Six Nations match. All young players have those performances. For him to kick well in a win against Wales when the pack lost Curry at halftime whilst having that kind of game is impressive in it's own way.

Worth noting as well I think that when Smith was first picked most people felt that having a strict attacking structure would ruin his skills with "we need to build an attack around Smith" a regular statement. Now that it's a freer structure that should suit him it's still the structure's fault though. For all Smith's talent at some point I think it's fair to look at how much good ball England squandered against Wales and think, "isn't making more use of this why we wanted Smith in the team?"

theslosty wrote:Re Ireland's back 3, Farrell has clearly got a lot right lately but the absence of playing time (not even vs Italy) for Rob Baloucoune has bewildered me a tad. He's the best winger in Ireland atm for me with real genuine pace (something that Irish teams sometimes lack) and no obvious weakness to my eyes. Keith Earls and Jacob Stockdale (on form the next two best wingers besides RB) have missed this tournament through injury which makes Baloucoune's absence especially odd. In fairness, Hansen has pleasantly surprised a lot of Irish fans so far but in Lowe and Conway we have two 'good' but not world class wingers. Conway in fairness is underrated outside Ireland and Lowe definitely has his strengths but for me Baloucoune is showing the potential to be a level beyond both in that he has linebreaking ability Conway slightly lacks and more solid basics than Lowe.

I just hope that if Farrell does give him a chance soon that he seizes it and is in possession of a starting jersey for the 2023 RWC. If we really want to contend for that competition we need a back 3 that is dangerous in the same way France have Penaud, SA have Kolbe and Mapimpi and NZ have Jordan and Reece.

mountain man wrote:Smith has been good so far for Eng. Good but not the wonderkid some were expecting. That is only to be expected against Int teams, usually a faster pace and less time and space. He will though given opportunity cut open a team. Some are just unrealistic on what one player can do(maybe with exception of DuPont!).
Smith used to playing with such a big, powerful but also very skillful 12 with Quins. He hasn't had that with England. Yet.
All that said, I'd have him as starting 10 until/if his form takes a big dive. I know Ford is good and lots rate him but for me Smith is the man at 10.

Collapse2005 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Smith has been good so far for Eng. Good but not the wonderkid some were expecting. That is only to be expected against Int teams, usually a faster pace and less time and space. He will though given opportunity cut open a team. Some are just unrealistic on what one player can do(maybe with exception of DuPont!).
Smith used to playing with such a big, powerful but also very skillful 12 with Quins. He hasn't had that with England. Yet.
All that said, I'd have him as starting 10 until/if his form takes a big dive. I know Ford is good and lots rate him but for me Smith is the man at 10.

Yeah he is a great player and in my view England's best 10 now. He has taken his chance well with plenty of confidence however he is definitely very over hyped too which wont help his cause.

Collapse2005 wrote:Fair enough

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Smith has been good so far for Eng. Good but not the wonderkid some were expecting. That is only to be expected against Int teams, usually a faster pace and less time and space. He will though given opportunity cut open a team. Some are just unrealistic on what one player can do(maybe with exception of DuPont!).
Smith used to playing with such a big, powerful but also very skillful 12 with Quins. He hasn't had that with England. Yet.
All that said, I'd have him as starting 10 until/if his form takes a big dive. I know Ford is good and lots rate him but for me Smith is the man at 10.

Yeah he is a great player and in my view England's best 10 now. He has taken his chance well with plenty of confidence however he is definitely very over hyped too which wont help his cause.

I really don't think he is over-hyped. The praise he has received in rugby circles has been warranted, he's the most exciting talent we've had at Fly Half since Wilkinson. You always get the "next big thing/poster boy" rubbish in the nationals but if you've just got to take these for what they are......tosh.

Collapse2005 wrote:I expect that POM has been selected for the lineout and to keep England honest there after all their funny business v Wales.

Very decent team.