Ireland v Scotland: Saturday 19th March @ 1645.

First topic message reminder :

I thought I'd be the one to start the match thread this week seeing as I haven't started one in a while and I'm trying to contribute to the forum more I'm future .

Before this test, there is a massive Scottish Derby in the URC which I'm definitely going to watch, let's hope these pesky train drivers aren't causing mischief again lol.

Regarding Saturday, everyone knows we will need to be MUCH BETTER than we have been this tournament to have any chance so hopefully Stuart and Gregor are rallying the troops all week in training etc.

I keep saying this as its true but, our rough record HAS to come to an end one day so why can't this weekend be that day just as last year were the days our rotten record was finally broken at Twickenham and Stade Francais.

As for the team I'd go:

Schoeman
Turner
Z. Fagerson
Gray
Gilchrist
Darge
Watson
M. Fagerson
Price
Hastings
Graham
Johnson (though GT won't drop Harris as he's our best defender)
Bennett
Kinghorn
Hogg

I am struggling to pick the bench so I'll let you guys help me out there, I would put Harris there but that means dropping Steyn completely and expecting BK to go the full 80mins. The other thing I'm struggling with is, do I put in Nel or Dell and Christie or Bayliss because my plan was to go with the 5:3 split.

Anyway, I'm expecting a good, tight and open game , hopefully with less errors from both than we saw from the round 4 matches.

My prediction: Ever the optimist and bearing in mind my original point regarding hoodoos eventually being broken, I say Scotland by 2, coming from behind .

Absolutely waste taking the quick tap. Had to go to corner

Well kinghorn is a master of the skipped pass. Unfortunately it also skips out of the players' hands.

Scotland need to once again do some major soul searching.

Was not really much Darcy could have done about that!

Never a yellow

Irelands title then.

I'm feeling nostalgic, this is like going back 10 years of progress.

Scotland. Penalties. Enough said

Congrats Ireland, tough wait for you guys now!

Regression by any measure for Scotland. But I’m sure Gregor will be armed with excuses as ever

No 7&1/2 wrote:Irelands title then.

I see what you did there...but Highly doubtful

Well done Ireland, clearly the better side and maybe would have been playing for the GS had they had France at home.

As for Scotland, we got what we deserved.

tigertattie wrote:Scotland. Penalties. Enough said

Don't forget execution!

It's almost like we have an attack coach from the 2009-2012 set up...

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Congrats Ireland, tough wait for you guys now!

Regression by any measure for Scotland. But I’m sure Gregor will be armed with excuses as ever

It’s the players who need to have a long look at themselves. Discipline was shocking.Some very dumb dumb penalties and Hogg going alone with a three on one is unforgivable.

Scotland were soft as has been the norm. Ireland punished them for it.

Onto the beer. Cause that needs erased from my memory

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Congrats Ireland, tough wait for you guys now!

Regression by any measure for Scotland. But I’m sure Gregor will be armed with excuses as ever

Toonie's main issue at the moment, IMO is sticking with these same players who keep letting him down time and time again.

Maybe it is time to look past this group of underachievers and start to build a new team.


Kinghorn did well enough for his first proper run out, certainly worthy of more time in the saddle. Not much else to say about the rest of them though, Hoggy and Price reverted right back to the previous games.

It's been a rubbish 6N for us, worse in some ways than getting horsed every week. We are not really that much better than we were then in truth.

Well played Ireland a well deserved win, triple crown in the bag, depending on England against France  could be 6ns champions.

BigGee wrote:It's been a rubbish 6N for us, worse in some ways than getting horsed every week. We are not really that much better than we were then in truth.

This is the thing. I’m bored of the hype starting every time we manage to scrape together a win over a big side, followed by the inevitable failure to back it up. This squad might like to think of themselves as a golden generation but I think they’re fooling themselves at the moment

BigGee wrote:

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Congrats Ireland, tough wait for you guys now!

Regression by any measure for Scotland. But I’m sure Gregor will be armed with excuses as ever

Toonie's main issue at the moment, IMO is sticking with these same players who keep letting him down time and time again.

Maybe it is time to look past this group of underachievers and start to build a new team.


Kinghorn did well enough for his first proper run out, certainly worthy of more time in the saddle. Not much else to say about the rest of them though, Hoggy and Price reverted right back to the previous games.

It's been a rubbish 6N for us, worse in some ways than getting horsed every week. We are not really that much better than we were then in truth.

Not sure I agree on Kinghorn. He didn't take control of the game in any way, and basically shipped the ball standing still most times he got it. He had a nice touch for Darcy in the build-up to Schoeman's try but that's kind of it.

He's by no means the reason we lost but didn't add overly much IMO.

Toonies position is untenable now. He really has left us in a poorer state leading up to the WC. I actually think we're such a shambles currently that it wouldn't make much difference getting a new coach.

Yes key players let us down but they were given the opportunity to time and time again by Toonie. Selection and tactics ultimately are his responsibility.

Watching Harris just battering the line to get turned over was just painful. Hogg was absolutely unforgivable today. He should be dropped as captain as he has proven to be a poor leader this tournament. Give it to Gilchrist or Ritchie. Price was pedestrian. Kinghorn, sorry but I disagree, he wasn't a 10. If you can't hit a basic conversion at international level that's not a 10.

Get a new coach in. We can't get any worse so we literally have nothing to lose.

Sorry if anyone thought that Blairhorn had a positive game. Yes he made one or two breaks and a couple of nice wide passes. However he is so passive in defence that it is embarrassing. He simply slid off a tackle during Ireland's final try as well as turning his back on Sheehan for the first try He also isn't a goal kicker. He may become an international standard flyhalf but he is far from it at the moment.

Geech has just bitch slapped the team in summary. Now that is a first. He was searching for the right words and trying to be polite but utter gash was the bottom line.

I have never heard him criticise a Scottish team like that before.

Listening to the Toony interview - he's sounding a bit of a broken man.

RDW wrote:Listening to the Toony interview - he's sounding a bit of a broken man.

What is he saying cause we have tuned into the news here

Totally agree on the captaincy too, Hoggy no doubt gives it his all and is extremely passionate, you can’t fault the effort. But it’s not working. Jamie Ritchie is the man. That of course means Damish is off the cards, but we seriously miss Ritchie when he’s out the side and he’s the sort of leader the side needs

Heuer27 wrote:

RDW wrote:Listening to the Toony interview - he's sounding a bit of a broken man.

What is he saying cause we have tuned into the news here

He was asked some challenging question (have we regressed etc) and did his best political answers but ultimately just sounded complete deflated.

As an aside - the ref authorities need to have a long hard look at that TMO.
- He should have come in to turn the penalty against Graham round when he was chasing a high ball and was nudged out the way by an Irish player causing the collision with the Irish catcher
- The attempt to rule out Schoeman's try
- The attempt to get Schoeman penalised for leading with his elbow.

Scotland has not one, but 2 backlines as good as, if not better than Ireland

Where are they?

Scotland has not one, but 2 backlines as good as, if not better than Ireland

Where are they?

RDW wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:

RDW wrote:Listening to the Toony interview - he's sounding a bit of a broken man.

What is he saying cause we have tuned into the news here

He was asked some challenging question (have we regressed etc) and did his best political answers but ultimately just sounded complete deflated.

He was also asked about Hogg's 4 on 1 screw up and how it's become a recurring habit. Very much struggled to answer that one.

RDW wrote:

RDW wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:

RDW wrote:Listening to the Toony interview - he's sounding a bit of a broken man.

What is he saying cause we have tuned into the news here

He was asked some challenging question (have we regressed etc) and did his best political answers but ultimately just sounded complete deflated.

He was also asked about Hogg's 4 on 1 screw up and how it's become a recurring habit. Very much struggled to answer that one.

I think anyone would have struggled to answer that other than saying, because Hoggy is a plonker!

RDW wrote:

RDW wrote:

Heuer27 wrote:

RDW wrote:Listening to the Toony interview - he's sounding a bit of a broken man.

What is he saying cause we have tuned into the news here

He was asked some challenging question (have we regressed etc) and did his best political answers but ultimately just sounded complete deflated.

He was also asked about Hogg's 4 on 1 screw up and how it's become a recurring habit. Very much struggled to answer that one.

Tough one for him I suppose. It was Hoggs glaring error that everyone saw. Not much for him to defend or explain other than , how do I drop my captain. I don’t know what if he went out on the lash against team orders and in direct contravention of the team manager’s instructions. That ought to tick all the boxes I would have thought. Can you tell I’m still very upset

Just compare what Hoggy (the very experienced Scottish captain) did in that situation compared to the 15 year old Italian kid, who was making his first start.

He scores that, especially with an inside pass that would have brought it nearer the posts, we were back in the game.

Moments change matches and we never got another look in.

Thing is. I could see it coming and just knew Hoggy was not going to pass.

You can't blame that on the coach!

Not wishing to disturb the self-flagellation to much but I thought I'd provide some views on the Ireland performance. Adequate, at best I think. Took most of the opportunities offered, but the scrum is still an issue, primarily down to the lack of depth at loosehead.

Personally thought Barnes got most things right, but felt Schoeman deserved some sanction for the forearm to the throat. It looked like he knew what he was doing and drove upwards with it. A shame given the rest of his game.

Before you throw too many out, have you got better alternatives? Including coaches?

No idea how my frown imojo got a Santa hat. Jimbo !!!! Help

BigGee wrote:Just compare what Hoggy (the very experienced Scottish captain) did in that situation compared to the 15 year old Italian kid, who was making his first start.

He scores that, especially with an inside pass that would have brought it nearer the posts, we were back in the game.

Moments change matches and we never got another look in.

Thing is. I could see it coming and just knew Hoggy was not going to pass.

You can't blame that on the coach!

You can't, but you can blame playing players out of position in key positions, sticking with favourites over form, inadequate team performances, lack of discipline and blunt attack.

Hoggs glory blunder was merely part of a bigger problem.

Unclear wrote:Not wishing to disturb the self-flagellation to much but I thought I'd provide some views on the Ireland performance.  Adequate, at best I think.  Took most of the opportunities offered, but the scrum is still an issue, primarily down to the lack of depth at loosehead.

Personally thought Barnes got most things right, but felt Schoeman deserved some sanction for the forearm to the throat.  It looked like he knew what he was doing and drove upwards with it.  A shame given the rest of his game.

Before you throw too many out, have you got better alternatives?  Including coaches?    

I thought Ireland weren't great, but didn't need to be. There wasn't much fluency and a lot of errors in attack.

Unclear wrote:Not wishing to disturb the self-flagellation to much but I thought I'd provide some views on the Ireland performance.  Adequate, at best I think.  Took most of the opportunities offered, but the scrum is still an issue, primarily down to the lack of depth at loosehead.

Personally thought Barnes got most things right, but felt Schoeman deserved some sanction for the forearm to the throat.  It looked like he knew what he was doing and drove upwards with it.  A shame given the rest of his game.

Before you throw too many out, have you got better alternatives?  Including coaches?    

Why was Henderson aiming to tackle that high?
Schoeman did absolutely nothing wrong - there is a world of difference between what he did and taking your hand off the ball and leading with your elbow.
Re the coaches - too early yet but Mike Blair is showing promise IMO.

Gicater wrote:

Unclear wrote:Not wishing to disturb the self-flagellation to much but I thought I'd provide some views on the Ireland performance.  Adequate, at best I think.  Took most of the opportunities offered, but the scrum is still an issue, primarily down to the lack of depth at loosehead.

Personally thought Barnes got most things right, but felt Schoeman deserved some sanction for the forearm to the throat.  It looked like he knew what he was doing and drove upwards with it.  A shame given the rest of his game.

Before you throw too many out, have you got better alternatives?  Including coaches?    

Why was Henderson aiming to tackle that high?
Schoeman did absolutely nothing wrong - there is a world of difference between what he did and taking your hand off the ball and leading with your elbow.
Re the coaches - too early yet but Mike Blair is showing promise IMO.

Why was Schoeman carrying the ball at the throat height of a significantly taller second row? There are lots of different views.

Unclear wrote:

Gicater wrote:

Unclear wrote:Not wishing to disturb the self-flagellation to much but I thought I'd provide some views on the Ireland performance.  Adequate, at best I think.  Took most of the opportunities offered, but the scrum is still an issue, primarily down to the lack of depth at loosehead.

Personally thought Barnes got most things right, but felt Schoeman deserved some sanction for the forearm to the throat.  It looked like he knew what he was doing and drove upwards with it.  A shame given the rest of his game.

Before you throw too many out, have you got better alternatives?  Including coaches?    

Why was Henderson aiming to tackle that high?
Schoeman did absolutely nothing wrong - there is a world of difference between what he did and taking your hand off the ball and leading with your elbow.
Re the coaches - too early yet but Mike Blair is showing promise IMO.

Why was Schoeman carrying the ball at the throat height of a significantly taller second row?  There are lots of different views.

You're allowed to carry as you want.

Gicater wrote:

Unclear wrote:Not wishing to disturb the self-flagellation to much but I thought I'd provide some views on the Ireland performance.  Adequate, at best I think.  Took most of the opportunities offered, but the scrum is still an issue, primarily down to the lack of depth at loosehead.

Personally thought Barnes got most things right, but felt Schoeman deserved some sanction for the forearm to the throat.  It looked like he knew what he was doing and drove upwards with it.  A shame given the rest of his game.

Before you throw too many out, have you got better alternatives?  Including coaches?    

Why was Henderson aiming to tackle that high?
Schoeman did absolutely nothing wrong - there is a world of difference between what he did and taking your hand off the ball and leading with your elbow.
Re the coaches - too early yet but Mike Blair is showing promise IMO.

Thought the ref got the big decisions right tbh. Henderson’s attempted tackle is exactly the type of thing world rugby are trying to stamp out. Schoeman knew exactly what he was doing though and it could have gone either way. Had he lifted his arm away from his body he would have seen a card.

There was nothing wrong with Schoeman's carry, if anything it was terrible tackle technique by Henderson to be standing up that tall. I learned to tackle around the waste/legs when I was about 12, don't know why so many professional rugby players seem to have difficulty with it.

Time’s up for Townsend.

Vern Cotter took us to Fifth in the World Rankings and within a dodgy penalty of a RWC semi.

That wasn’t good enough for the SRU who horsed him out of the door to make way for Townsend.

We are ranked 7th in the World and were dumped out of the RWC in the group stages by Japan.

In the 6N Cotter finished 3rd in his final season in charge. Since then we’ve finished 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th and 4th

That despite arguably the deepest pool of players we have had in the professional era.

Townsend has been indulged, jollying around the world to learn from coaches in other countries and sports….where is the return on this investment?

Time for change

Might be a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things, but WTF was Fraser brown doing on the bench? He's hardly played all season, and looked off the pace.

RDW wrote:Might be a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things, but WTF was Fraser brown doing on the bench? He's hardly played all season, and looked off the pace.

I think McInally had a niggle? Ashman is injured. We're a bit thin on the ground. Although agree, form-wise cherry would have been better.

Another whinge - wtf was going on when Finn came on? It was clear no-one had a clue who was meant to be playing where. Whether Finn ignored instruction or that was the plan, it wasn't a good look.

RDW wrote:Another whinge - wtf was going on when Finn came on? It was clear no-one had a clue who was meant to be playing where. Whether Finn ignored instruction or that was the plan, it wasn't a good look.

I had lost the will to live by that point, was beyond caring!

That was an amazing tackle by Keenan on Hogg. He has been outstanding for Ireland.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/stuart-hogg-breaks-silence-on-scotland-team-disciplinary-breach/

Hogg speaks

RDW wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/stuart-hogg-breaks-silence-on-scotland-team-disciplinary-breach/

Hogg speaks

Not exactly very apologetic about the horrendously butchered 3 on 1. "Any other game I'd have been in"

Maybe he knows that his time as captain has gone, or maybe he just wants to give it up now anyway.

Probably for the best either way.

A little snapshot after 23 years of the Six Nations...

Just read the rugby pass article. It’s hard to digest because it seems to be a snapshot of the interview but Hogg comes across as an arrogant asshat.
Unfortunately that is my personal and anecdotal experience of him. Let’s just say he was not popular at Glasgow for his attitude.
To say in effect that he doesn’t care about the fan’s opinions is shameful for a captain of his country.
He might not have ‘gave them what they were after’ but they did manage to make him look incredibly silly.
Surely after all that has happened and they way he dealt with it publicly, he cannot retain the captaincy.