France vs England

by No 7&1/2 Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

As there's currently no thread:

France

France: Jaminet; Penaud, Fickou, Danty, Villiere; Ntamack, Dupont (capt); Baille, Marchand, Atonio, Woki, Willemse, Cros, Alldritt, Jelonch.

Replacements: Mauvaka, Gros, Haouas, Flament, Taofifenua, Cretin, Lucu, Ramos.

vs England

15. George Furbank

14. Freddie Steward

13. Joe Marchant

12. Henry Slade

11. Jack Nowell

10. Marcus Smith

9. Ben Youngs

1. Ellis Genge

2. Jamie George

3. Will Stuart

4. Maro Itoje

5. Nick Isiekwe

6. Courtney Lawes

7. Sam Underhill

8. Sam Simmonds

Finishers

16. Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)

17. Joe Marler

18. Kyle Sinckler

19. Ollie Chessum

20. Alex Dombrandt

21. Harry Randall

22. George Ford

23. Elliot Daly

Kick-off: 8:00pm

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)

Assistant Referee 1: Mike Adamson (SRU)

Assistant Referee 2: Frank Murphy (IRFU)

TMO: Marius Jonker (SARU)

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:09 am

Unclear wrote:The game against Wales showed the French attack can be blunted pretty successfully (as did Ireland in the second half, shame about the first 40mins though). Unfortunately what Wales couldn't do was show any efficiency in attack themselves. I'm sure Mr E Jones and colleagues will be analysing and coming up with plans to limit Frances scoring opportunities and there are plenty of options in the squad to implement such strategies. The Ireland game also showed incredible resilience in defence until the extra man paid dividends in the final ten minutes.
But can England come up with sufficient attacking options themselves? I think we will end up with a low scoring game with France coming out on top by taking what few scoring opportunities they are offered. I think that England are concentrating on building a world class defence at the moment and will hope to bolt on a world class attack in the autumn and next years 6Ns. This minimises the time to analyse it and counteract it before the RWC.
France need to win this game and get the Grand Slam to prove they have the ultimate winning mentality after years of fragility. England just need to keep the score down (and hope their own supporters don't lynch the coaching staff for not valuing the 6Ns).

Sacrificing 6Ns is unacceptable. I do think we're extremely early in the development of the attack but I still think Jones has gone to win this tournament. Frankly 2 pieces of appalling discipline has sunk him but shows that you can't hope to scrape by doing the bare minimum. Whoever is next after the wirld Cup I do hope they intend to go all out to win everything holding nothing back.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:10 am

I have a sense of hope for this team selection. Its bound to be destroyed by picking Youngs and Daly I'm sure.

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 9:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have a sense of hope for this team selection. Its bound to be destroyed by picking Youngs and Daly I'm sure.

Yep. BBC Rugby Union podcast predicting an England kicking game(surprise) with Daly on wing and Youngs to start.

by Geordie Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:11 am

I dont have a lot of hope for Saturday....think a few individuals could have a torrid evening in Paris

by majesticimperialman Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:38 am

Re Ben Youngs i think Ben Youngs is in the same bracket as AWJ. I do not mean in terms of caps, but Wayne Pivac expects AWJ to play for Wales up untill EWC 2023

I expect Ben Youngs to be the same.
.

I do not mean any of them any disrespect , but i do think this 6ns should be their last for the good of the game. They both have done remarkably well for them selves.

by doctor_grey Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:39 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Unclear wrote:The game against Wales showed the French attack can be blunted pretty successfully (as did Ireland in the second half, shame about the first 40mins though). Unfortunately what Wales couldn't do was show any efficiency in attack themselves. I'm sure Mr E Jones and colleagues will be analysing and coming up with plans to limit Frances scoring opportunities and there are plenty of options in the squad to implement such strategies. The Ireland game also showed incredible resilience in defence until the extra man paid dividends in the final ten minutes.
But can England come up with sufficient attacking options themselves? I think we will end up with a low scoring game with France coming out on top by taking what few scoring opportunities they are offered. I think that England are concentrating on building a world class defence at the moment and will hope to bolt on a world class attack in the autumn and next years 6Ns. This minimises the time to analyse it and counteract it before the RWC.
France need to win this game and get the Grand Slam to prove they have the ultimate winning mentality after years of fragility. England just need to keep the score down (and hope their own supporters don't lynch the coaching staff for not valuing the 6Ns).
Sacrificing 6Ns is unacceptable. I do think we're extremely early in the development of the attack but I still think Jones has gone to win this tournament. Frankly 2 pieces of appalling discipline has sunk him but shows that you can't hope to scrape by doing the bare minimum. Whoever is next after the wirld Cup I do hope they intend to go all out to win everything holding nothing back.

I agree with you. But I think the available choices for selection are limited. There really aren't any wild cards in the training squads. So not sure how to get out there and what to do. Opening up space for Randall/Smith is a step in the right direction. Can't play Barbarian style though because we don't have the horses for that and France will eat it up. What do you think?

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:00 am

That's just it. Randall and Smith been picked which is what we wanted for ages but otherwise same old same old. Steward has successfully made break into starting XV but he's not an attacking 15. France will score tries, will England? Seems unlikely on showing so far so can England beat them by suffocating defence and kicking points. Can't see it against a rampaging France if they get up a head of steam.
Maybe in 18 months time if England win RWC this 6N be a distant memory and no-one will care but realistically England don't look like WC contenders at the moment.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:44 am

doctor_grey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Unclear wrote:The game against Wales showed the French attack can be blunted pretty successfully (as did Ireland in the second half, shame about the first 40mins though). Unfortunately what Wales couldn't do was show any efficiency in attack themselves. I'm sure Mr E Jones and colleagues will be analysing and coming up with plans to limit Frances scoring opportunities and there are plenty of options in the squad to implement such strategies. The Ireland game also showed incredible resilience in defence until the extra man paid dividends in the final ten minutes.
But can England come up with sufficient attacking options themselves? I think we will end up with a low scoring game with France coming out on top by taking what few scoring opportunities they are offered. I think that England are concentrating on building a world class defence at the moment and will hope to bolt on a world class attack in the autumn and next years 6Ns. This minimises the time to analyse it and counteract it before the RWC.
France need to win this game and get the Grand Slam to prove they have the ultimate winning mentality after years of fragility. England just need to keep the score down (and hope their own supporters don't lynch the coaching staff for not valuing the 6Ns).
Sacrificing 6Ns is unacceptable. I do think we're extremely early in the development of the attack but I still think Jones has gone to win this tournament. Frankly 2 pieces of appalling discipline has sunk him but shows that you can't hope to scrape by doing the bare minimum. Whoever is next after the wirld Cup I do hope they intend to go all out to win everything holding nothing back.
I agree with you. But I think the available choices for selection are limited. There really aren't any wild cards in the training squads. So not sure how to get out there and what to do. Opening up space for Randall/Smith is a step in the right direction. Can't play Barbarian style though because we don't have the horses for that and France will eat it up. What do you think?

In terms of the selection available to be made today you mean? I'll be happy if he finds a place for Barbeary on the bench, To put Northmore at 12 with Marchant at 13 though I would reluctantly accept Slade back there (getting really overrated though by some in my opinion) and Lynagh on the wing with Nowell.

I would hate to see Youngs, Slade at 12 and Daly in the starting 15.

I do think the pack has the ability to be on top once again though clearly the back row combo is a big choice for Jones.

by Oakdene Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Unclear wrote:The game against Wales showed the French attack can be blunted pretty successfully (as did Ireland in the second half, shame about the first 40mins though). Unfortunately what Wales couldn't do was show any efficiency in attack themselves. I'm sure Mr E Jones and colleagues will be analysing and coming up with plans to limit Frances scoring opportunities and there are plenty of options in the squad to implement such strategies. The Ireland game also showed incredible resilience in defence until the extra man paid dividends in the final ten minutes.
But can England come up with sufficient attacking options themselves? I think we will end up with a low scoring game with France coming out on top by taking what few scoring opportunities they are offered. I think that England are concentrating on building a world class defence at the moment and will hope to bolt on a world class attack in the autumn and next years 6Ns. This minimises the time to analyse it and counteract it before the RWC.
France need to win this game and get the Grand Slam to prove they have the ultimate winning mentality after years of fragility. England just need to keep the score down (and hope their own supporters don't lynch the coaching staff for not valuing the 6Ns).
Sacrificing 6Ns is unacceptable. I do think we're extremely early in the development of the attack but I still think Jones has gone to win this tournament. Frankly 2 pieces of appalling discipline has sunk him but shows that you can't hope to scrape by doing the bare minimum. Whoever is next after the wirld Cup I do hope they intend to go all out to win everything holding nothing back.

Agreed, although I can see the merit in doing it the year after a RWC as that's when you need to start looking at your squad & thinking who won't be there at the next RWC.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:56 am

I'm all for a constant refresh. People talk about caps etc leading into world cups, frankly don't care. Ideally you don't go into any game with a 10 guys fresh from the U20s but no one will convince me that taking Youngs with 115 caps is a better option that Quirke with a handful. There will be times where it'll get stodgy in attack but you still need to win those games. Putting all your eggs in one basket is foolish as what happens if you have 78 mins in a group stage with 14 and get knocked out, you've wasted 4 years then in 'prep' and overall I come back to the most important thing. Entertainment. That's where England fans are being let down since the WC, yes we won 2 tournaments out of 2 in 2020 but I did not enjoy them.

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:19 pm

England attacking problems are 11 to 15 not 9 and 10

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:30 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:England attacking problems are 11 to 15 not 9 and 10

Yes although I wouldn't change Steward so maybe more 11-14. Nowell not an attacking threat either really but he was superb against Ireland so he has to keep place. As we've said all along it's centres and lack of pace on wings.

by hugehandoff Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:54 pm

Leaked reports saying England changes are Launchbury into 2nd row with Itoje and Lawes staying at 6. Underhill at 7 with Dombrandt at 8. Daly at 14 replacing Malins as the only other change to the starting line up.

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:04 pm

FFS Daly on wing. Rugby pod predicted it but had hopes wrong.

by hugehandoff Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:12 pm

mountain man wrote:FFS Daly on wing. Rugby pod predicted it but had hopes wrong.

I agree but it would also have been wrong to have given a debut to Lynagh away to France when they are going for a GS. Eddie should have made changes earlier in the tournament.

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:15 pm

True but does anyone think he's best option?

I was scathing of Nowell after Welsh game but he was a revelation against Ireland so maybe Daly surprise us all but doubt it somehow. I so hope I'm proved wrong!

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 17, 2022 1:37 pm

hugehandoff wrote:
mountain man wrote:FFS Daly on wing. Rugby pod predicted it but had hopes wrong.

I agree but it would also have been wrong to have given a debut to Lynagh away to France when they are going for a GS. Eddie should have made changes earlier in the tournament.

Why would it be wrong.
England should do what is best for England.
Daly is not the answer, Lynagh might be.
Tough first cap but if he is good enough he will come through it

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:04 pm

FRance team is out: France: Jaminet; Penaud, Fickou, Danty, Villiere; Ntamack, Dupont (capt); Baille, Marchand, Atonio, Woki, Willemse, Cros, Alldritt, Jelonch.

Replacements: Mauvaka, Gros, Haouas, Flament, Taofifenua, Cretin, Lucu, Ramos.

by majesticimperialman Thu Mar 17, 2022 3:27 pm

When is the England team named?
Not seen any mention of it yet.

by Mr Bounce Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:19 pm

This evening I believe

by majesticimperialman Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:42 pm

cheers.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:54 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:This evening I believe

20 mins time bounce.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:17 pm

Frak appalling side.

ENGLAND XV 15. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 5 caps) 14. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps) 13. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 11 caps) 12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 47 caps) 11. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 38 caps) 10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 9 caps) 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 116 caps) 1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps) 2. Jamie George (Saracens, 65 caps) 3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 19 caps) 4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 55 caps) 5. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 6 caps) 6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 92 caps) 7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 27 caps) 8. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps)

FINISHERS 16. Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap) 17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 78 caps) 18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 51 caps) 19. Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap) 20. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 8 caps) 21. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 5 caps) 22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps) 23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 56 caps)

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:18 pm

So many things wrong with that.

by hugehandoff Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:25 pm

Terrible selection but sadly I cannot see the RFU getting rid of Eddie until after the RWC.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:29 pm

Positives. The pack looks good and Isiekwe and Chessum are there to help do a job on their lineout. Smith and Marchant start. And that's the end of the good news. Really really strange.

by majesticimperialman Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:34 pm

England: Furbank; Steward, Marchant, Slade, Nowell; Smith, Youngs; Genge, George, Stuart, Itoje, Isiekwe, Lawes, Underhill, Simmonds.

Replacements:, Marler, Dolly, Sinckler, Chessum, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford, Daly

Very surprised Youngos starting and Furbank in as
well.

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:44 pm

I thought Furbs might get a bench slot due to versatility, but Steward on the wing!!!!!! The slowest back on the wing, just what is he doing. It can only be for his ability to challenge for the box kicks.

If Sinckler is fit, he has to start. Why is Randall not starting, he is streets ahead of Youngs

by Barney McGrew did it Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:46 pm

Come on though, let’s admire Eddie’s comedic value. And what a set of backs combinations:

Old man of the hills with boy wonder,
The slowest back 3 to date, and
The best we could do at centre.

I actually think the BR may outpace the back 3, wonder if they’ll swap at scrum time. Time we all accepted the reality that currently England backs define mediocrity, and dream of those golden years of Watson, May, JJ & Manu.

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:48 pm

Deary me. Furbank at 15 and Steward on wing?!

Just what we needed. Not.

Furbank never shown enough for Eng, Tonga aside and that really doesn't count. Steward great 15 but does he really have pace for wing? No I think is answer.

Must be yet another hybrid player position experiment for RWC or something....

by doctor_grey Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:50 pm

Really????
Furby at 15, Youngs starting? Furby is good catching balls in traffic but that is really Stewards reason for being in the squad and he is developing into a real rock back there. Has Steward ever played on the wing? France will be bombing Furby until he proves that doesn't work. Or, EJ will replace him with Daly....

Furbank is a good fullback and a dynamic runner. He is also a good second receiver, but then what is Slade there for? Maybe the available players in the squad dictate this. But, unless someone says otherwise about Steward, this could be another player out of position. Youngs, I just don't get.

by Recwatcher16 Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:52 pm

Wow, you would have had long odds on that selection.

Steward is not a winger but presumably Youngs, Smith and Slade will be putting high balls in to the corners and test the french wingers, which could be profitable but not very inspiring.
Not sure what Launchbury did wrong and don't understand Furbank selection - who is a skillful player but not a test athlete and fullback. He needs a very big game.
Fingers crossed for Underhill, as I fear for him a little bit and the punishment he takes at rucks. Dolly and Chessum are pretty big punts for a Slam game in Paris but certainly the latter looks a future test player.
It will all be either inspired EJ's selection or a warm evening in Paris for a bit of a pumping. I fear the latter but will stay optimistic, just.

by doctor_grey Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:52 pm

Maybe Eddie Jones did this to increase traffic on the 606V2 web site?

I missed Launchbury's absence. Unless injured, wtf?

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:56 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Maybe Eddie Jones did this to increase traffic on the 606V2 web site?

I think there must be a get out clause in contract based on bizarre player positions.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:56 pm

It's logical in his mind. He thinks France kick alot and long. He doesn't think they'll challenge the high ball in attack and he wants Steward to challenge better than Malins in attack. He intends to kick the leather off it really poorly so picks Youngs. This is the first time I'm properly fed up with him.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 5:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's logical in his mind. He thinks France kick alot and long. He doesn't think they'll challenge the high ball in attack and he wants Steward to challenge better than Malins in attack. He intends to kick the leather off it really poorly so picks Youngs. This is the first time I'm properly fed up with him.

Youngs will kick badly again as he has done for 12 months and give them ball. They'll run and not kick and walk through Slade. I'll be surprised if marchant gets the ball on anything other than a kick.

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:00 pm

Well I think Jones has picked a winning side there....for France.

by hugehandoff Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:01 pm

We will clearly just kick everything up very very high and expect Steward to regather as well as putting pressure on their line out which had an off day against Wales.

"This is our strongest 23 for the game against France," said Jones....quelle surprise!

by Mr Bounce Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:04 pm

What the actual...

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:11 pm

Well we already have the old timers at the Times and Austin Healey calling for his head. I think there will be a few more win or lose after this weekend. I do think the pack is great. But those backs are just so depressing.

by doctor_grey Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:17 pm

I actually understand the logic having Furbank back there to add more of an attacking threat from 15 than England have had. He is tough, can run and can kick well. But by putting Steward on the wing, that I don't get.

Still trying to wrap my head around this. Thank goodness I have no more surgical procedures today.

by sensisball Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:22 pm

Thus back 3 selection smacks of Eddie getting his excuses in first before a big defeat against France. Townsend has done much the same thing by picking Blair Kinghorn at 10 for Scotland.

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:23 pm

Jones has lost the plot

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:25 pm

Pretty obvious plan with be endless contestable kicks for Steward to go after.

That ball going to spend so much time in the air it'll have a platinum frequent flyer card by end of match.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:26 pm

sensisball wrote:Thus back 3 selection smacks of Eddie getting his excuses in first before a big defeat against France. Townsend has done much the same thing by picking Blair Kinghorn at 10 for Scotland.

It's clearly not.

by majesticimperialman Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:32 pm

EJ keeps saying he is building for the RWC 2023.

But surely he should of built the squad by now. and know who the players are or are going to be in the squad.

Surely this 6ns should be about perfecting the squad and not keep chopping and changing players all the time.

by mountain man Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:38 pm

I honestly now wonder if he wants out. Maybe(hopefully) we're all proved wrong and his master plan is a genius stroke which wins but I seriously doubt it.

If that's the best 15/23 England can produce then we're in even more trouble than I thought.

by formerly known as Sam Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well we already have the old timers at the Times and Austin Healey calling for his head. I think there will be a few more win or lose after this weekend. I do think the pack is great. But those backs are just so depressing.

I don't particularly like the pack to be honest. I don't get Stuart starting, he's lucky to have retained the bench spot this 6N and Sinckler is on the bench? Surely Sinckler is either fit and starts or he's not and shouldn't be in the squad, it was a concussion after all. No Launchbury is a concern against a pack as big as France's.

Yeah the backline doesn't work but it hasn't worked all tournament. Even against Italy it didn't pop. It's a mess really and shoving in a utility back who's only ever looked average at international level and putting our ideal fullback on the wing where he's likely to be isolated by his opposite number's pace is going to help nothing.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:42 pm

Sinckler hasn't trained much hence dropped to bench. The pack has been very good. The obvious miss is Curry but Underhill is obviously class if possibly undercooked.

by Geordie Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:57 pm

I just don't get that selection at all...

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