England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

A few things whirling around my head and most start with the fact that Eddie is likely to remain in charge. There are probably a lack of available alternatives and the RFU won't want to fork out more money. Therefore, he is likely to remain in charge until the RWC 2023 is done. Bearing that in mind what are the positives and negatives?

Positives
We have some decent forwards for sure and the set piece should be fine. Underhill was terrific yesterday and I think a return to Curry and Underhill playing around a big 8 would be very handy. Dombrandt should be that man.
Our defence is excellent and the team spirit is clearly there.
We have loads of quality players who can hopefully return to fitness and form and add to the mix. All countries lose players and of course we have more resources than anyone bar France, but we will no doubt look completely different if Launchbury, Hill, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Manu, May, Watson, Cockanasiga, Farrell are all fit and firing.
We have some foundations to build on and it is not Eddie's fault that we have not had Manu, or a decent replacement, available to add some power to our midfield.
There is enough time to fix many of these issues.

Negatives
Inconsistent selection
Inconsistent tactics and coaching team (too many coaching changes). Taking over from Lancaster Eddie was very clear on what to do. Restore England's traditional strengths in the set piece, defence and back it up with good kicking. Now we are totally confused as what we are trying to do.
The whole thing about playing players not in their best positions
Everyone is bored with Eddie's comments - we need less of him

Aus Tour
What a statement he made by winning 3-0 last time post a grand slam. Ruthless in taking off Burrell after 25 minutes. And they were missing Manu then as well and ended up with Ford, Farrell and Joseph so if we assume that Manu is unavailable then there is still hope. But we need players in their correct position and we need some consistency. Considering we don't have too many options at 12 and Slade is not really working out should we revert to Farrell? Not exactly a running beast, but at least he will be fresh and might just add some toughness. I would love to see Youngs left behind and to back 2 of our younger 9s. Genge, Dombrandt, Smith, Steward etc all need exposure to a tough away series.

Autumn
Based purely on form this is now the time to select the 23 Eddie sees as our strongest RWC team. All bets are off now and if a Mako or Bill V are playing well and showing the form and hunger to return then why not consider them. We might need then in the RWC group even if they are back ups to the regular starters. So maybe give them a game to see where they are? And then hopefully we can enjoy some consistent selection allied with a revamped game plan.

Anyone else hopeful that Eddie can resurrect the team and our RWC ambitions?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Updates on injuries in rugby are rubbish at the best of times. It's more like wrestling where there are surprise returns than any other sport.

True. Borthwick refusing to discuss player injuries also means a lot of the news at Tigers is just injuries. Rumours are Martin is out with a knee injury until next season, could quite easily appear in the team for Saturday who knows.

Poorfour wrote:It’s “to the manner born”, at least if you go by Shakespeare’s usage of it in Hamlet (Act 1, Scene 4). “I am native here / And to the manner born” I.e. I’ve been used to the way we do things around here all my life.

To The Manor Born was an 80s sitcom starring Penelope Keith as an impoverished aristocrat who is forced to sell the manor house she sees as her birthright and schemes to get it back.

Showing your age there Poorfoor, Dame Penelope Keith and Peter Bowles as the "common born" supermarket millionaire of Polish descent who bought the mansion. Great series for it's day. Late seventies / early eighties I think.

One loose head to watch, he is not ready yet after only one full season playing in the position, is Manny Iyogun. In 2020 he was a flanker and Saints thought his build might be better suited to a prop (a very large muscular backside, or so I am told). After only a few Wanderers games and at the tender age of 19 injuries forced him to be thrown in the deep end, against I think, Leicester and Dan Cole. He did well enough that he retained his place against Exeter the following week. This season season you can see his development, bit heavier, bit stronger, more technique, he has the problem of competing against the prop with the most appearances ever in the Premiership in Alex Waller, but is getting game time. Waller is not getting younger and I suspect Manny will be getting more starts next year as he develops, a season and a bit is not sufficient time to learn the tricks and techniques of the front row. By the middle of next year I can see him being the starting choice and with his rate of development maybe on EJ radar.

Having played most of the time in the back three with only occasional sorties into the engine room, I am not qualified to say what makes a good prop, but his rate of development is pretty quick. That he still plays in broken field play like the backrow he was is another benefit.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Updates on injuries in rugby are rubbish at the best of times. It's more like wrestling where there are surprise returns than any other sport.

True. Borthwick refusing to discuss player injuries also means a lot of the news at Tigers is just injuries. Rumours are Martin is out with a knee injury until next season, could quite easily appear in the team for Saturday who knows.

Did he learn from Deano.....

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Poorfour wrote:It’s “to the manner born”, at least if you go by Shakespeare’s usage of it in Hamlet (Act 1, Scene 4). “I am native here / And to the manner born” I.e. I’ve been used to the way we do things around here all my life.

To The Manor Born was an 80s sitcom starring Penelope Keith as an impoverished aristocrat who is forced to sell the manor house she sees as her birthright and schemes to get it back.

Showing your age there Poorfoor, Dame Penelope Keith and Peter Bowles as the "common born" supermarket millionaire of Polish descent who bought the mansion. Great series for it's day. Late seventies / early eighties I think.

One loose head to watch, he is not ready yet after only one full season playing in the position, is Manny Iyogun. In 2020 he was a flanker and Saints thought his build might be better suited to a prop (a very large muscular backside, or so I am told). After only a few Wanderers games and at the tender age of 19 injuries forced him to be thrown in the deep end, against I think, Leicester and Dan Cole. He did well enough that he retained his place against Exeter the following week.  This season season you can see his development, bit heavier, bit stronger, more technique, he has the problem of competing against the prop with the most appearances ever in the Premiership in Alex Waller, but is getting game time.  Waller is not getting younger and I suspect Manny will be getting more starts next year as he develops, a season and a bit is not sufficient time to learn the tricks and techniques of the front row. By the middle of next year I can see him being the starting choice and with his rate of development maybe on EJ radar.

Having played most of the time in the back three with only occasional sorties into the engine room, I am not qualified to say what makes a good prop, but his rate of development is pretty quick.  That he still plays in broken field play like the backrow he was is another benefit.

In the next season or two theres going to be a lot of good Looseheads pushing the established Marler, Genge, Mako...trio.

Apparently Scotland are gunning for Arundle already....

You know what if he wants to choose so quick let him go. He's still very unproven.

We also have Josh Hodge still developing and he's only 21.

Yes lets just ignore class young players as they were born with options!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes lets just ignore class young players as they were born with options!

Not ignoring...just dont be held over a barrel to select a kid whos had 2 games and really only has pace in his game at the moment.

We have plenty of options.

Arundle has the potential to be the best of the lot though. Only pace; sorry don't agree.

And it's not about being put over a barrel it's taking a pragmatic approach that he has options and we should cap him because of it. Jones has already messed up that with Redpath.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Arundle has the potential to be the best of the lot though. Only pace; sorry don't agree.

And it's not about being put over a barrel it's taking a pragmatic approach that he has options and we should cap him because of it. Jones has already messed up that with Redpath.

I disagree....theres many players with huge potential. They all could come through...it all depends on injury, and gametime.

At the moment, ive only really seen the pace aspect of Arundels game. Nothing to stand him out against some of the others.
Whats his defence like
His passing
His vision

He's young but all this needs looked at before hes fast tracked in to the England Full squad even as an apprentice.

Josh Hodge looks a class act...he just needs to play regularly.

Yeah Hodge is there too. Not getting enough gametime and made a few errors when he got chances. Arundell was one of those who looked like he was playing with the U12s when he was in the U20s and is making an immediate impact in the senior side. Jones was at the game on Saturday where he won player of the match in 20 minutes.

As with my first post he perhaps wouldn't be starting for England if we had May Watson and Steward all fit, but I'd pick him. A couple of posters said he's already ready. I'm quickly coming around to agreeing with them. I see no reason to risk not picking him for the summer and capping him. At the moment he's leap frogged Hodge.

Not saying he should definitely be selected as not many teenagers play international rugby for a reason. But he's absolutely the most talented player I've seen come through at that age at LI. Better than Watson and JJ, albeit that's not to say he'll be as good as them as people develop at different rates and some drop off completely.

There's a lot more to his game than pace. His defence needs some work and he's not Steward under the high ball, but overall he's got most things. Kicking game, strength, balance, vision etc.

He's played 14 games this season (including 3 at U20 level), so does have some playing time under his belt.

Margin W,
Is he better than Tom Parton, whos a talented alround 15...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah Hodge is there too. Not getting enough gametime and made a few errors when he got chances. Arundell was one of those who looked like he was playing with the U12s when he was in the U20s and is making an immediate impact in the senior side. Jones was at the game on Saturday where he won player of the match in 20 minutes.

As with my first post he perhaps wouldn't be starting for England if we had May Watson and Steward all fit, but I'd pick him. A couple of posters said he's already ready.  I'm quickly coming around to agreeing with them. I see no reason to risk not picking him for the summer and capping him. At the moment he's leap frogged Hodge.

This lad needs to hope that Stuart Hogg leaves in the summer and Baxter has firmly decided Hodge is the man to make that 15 shirt his own.

If he does happy days, if not...i think he needs to move somewhere he gets regular gametime.

He should never have left us...and i said at the time it might be a mistake. On his day though he can play....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Margin W,
Is he better than Tom Parton, whos a talented alround 15...

Yeah, he's better than Parton. Parton doesn't really do anything better than him for me. Other than have more experience under his belt.

Margin_Walker wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Margin W,
Is he better than Tom Parton, whos a talented alround 15...

Yeah, he's better than Parton. Parton doesn't really do anything better than him for me. Other than have more experience under his belt.

I dunno I've seen Arundell a few times and he looks mustard ball in hand but positionally and defensively he needs quite a bit of work. Parton is probably the more rounded player there but given the respective ages not really a surprise. Parton might have to get used to his understudy overtaking him for selection.

Arundell touring with England makes a lot of sense, at 19 he looks a ridiculous talent so getting him experience with the first team in a summer where there's no junior world cup is a good idea. He might be to raw for 15 at international level but a cap on the wing to ease his way in to the big time and in a position England need an injection of something could work.

He needs a cap either way be it at wing, full back, scrum half doesn't matter.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Margin W,
Is he better than Tom Parton, whos a talented alround 15...

Yeah, he's better than Parton. Parton doesn't really do anything better than him for me. Other than have more experience under his belt.

I dunno I've seen Arundell a few times and he looks mustard ball in hand but positionally and defensively he needs quite a bit of work. Parton is probably the more rounded player there but given the respective ages not really a surprise. Parton might have to get used to his understudy overtaking him for selection.

Arundell touring with England makes a lot of sense, at 19 he looks a ridiculous talent so getting him experience with the first team in a summer where there's no junior world cup is a good idea. He might be to raw for 15 at international level but a cap on the wing to ease his way in to the big time and in a position England need an injection of something could work.

I really like Parton, but I don't think even his Mum would describe him as defensively solid.  It's probably what's held him back slightly as far as international recognition goes.

Is Parton realistically near the squad? Don't think he's been in the squad even as an apprentice. We seem to be cycling through some of the fringe players but it's Malins and Freeman who have been looked at for fullback cover. Again with the emergence of Arundell it seems more likely he will be the next to be looked at rather than waste time of Parton?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is Parton realistically near the squad? Don't think he's been in the squad even as an apprentice. We seem to be cycling through some of the fringe players but it's Malins and Freeman who have been looked at for fullback cover. Again with the emergence of Arundell it seems more likely he will be the next to be looked at rather than waste time of Parton?

He was in an extended squad last summer before getting cut. He's then been injured for most of this season until the last month or two.

But realistically he's behind a few at the moment and I'd be surprised if he was involved in the near future.

Ah ta Walker.

Your all missing something anyway....he'll never get past Elliott Daly

Don't forget George Hendy in the up and coming department of 15s. 6'3" and nearly 15 stone at the tender age of 19, he has already shown Sarries in the PRC this season just how quick he is, but also pretty sound defensively for a 19 year old anyway.

It's not just straight line speed, he has a wicked step and outside break, is good under the high ball and has a pretty good (but could be improved) kicking game. He suits the Saints style as if thinks he sees an opening, he will run from deep, not always in line with what his team mates are thinking though.

Played 4 times in the PRC (1 as replacement) scored 4 tries.

He will have a hard job dislodging Furbank and Freeman though to get game time, but may get some game time in the international windows.

Too many players. Obviously covid was a horrible experience on the whole to many but I thought the way that rugby packed so many games into a short space and then brought in the restrictions on appearances and forced teams to play much more of their depth and youth did have a lot of benefits to pushing some of those younger players on. If I wasn't so lazy I'd go back and check some teams at that time and see if it's more perception than fact.

Theres a ton of young kids coming through now...its going to be fascinating which ones make it and which ones fall away...

Theres only so many places in club and international rugby...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Theres a ton of young kids coming through now...its going to be fascinating which ones make it and which ones fall away...

Theres only so many places in club and international rugby...

It would be nice to imagine England Men getting to a position closer to where the England Women are - they currently have enough strength and depth that they can lose players of the quality of Scarratt, Brown, Hunter, Dow and Breach and still keep winning while also fully rotating the squad. That may change as the women's professional game matures - but it's not dissimilar to the 2003 men's squad where a completely rotated team could get within one missed kick of beating a full strength France in Marseilles.

At the moment, Eddie seems to be in the middle of reshaping the squad, but I hope that as it settles he'll find room to bring through more of the youngsters he's been watching.

I wouldn't call the women's game exactly a level playing field though.

For England men to get to that level of one sidedness....we'd need a few unions to regress to amateur status. As much fun as it would smashing NZ by 60pts, it would soon get boring.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wouldn't call the women's game exactly a level playing field though.

For England men to get to that level of one sidedness....we'd need a few unions to regress to amateur status. As much fun as it would smashing NZ by 60pts, it would soon get boring.

The gap in the ratings table between England and everyone else isn't that different from the gap between NZ Men and everyone else from 2011-15, though. The top 4 sides are pretty competitive, usually with NZ on top, but England have got their act together best coming out of the pandemic. It was great to see Italy doing well in the 6N, too.

Some quite interesting numbers in this

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/05/05/day-jackaller-premierships-defensive-breakdown-masters-ranked/

Seems slowly but surely we're seeing more stats coming through the media, seeing more ruck speed stats as well, though lacking definitions as to what that actually means.

Willis has always been outstanding in that department but he needs to add more. He's up against Curry realistically and Curry has much more about him.

Willis's big challenge is staying fit long enough to mount a serious challenge really. Every time he's got up a head of steam he's got a serious injury, he's like the next Tom Rees.

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wouldn't call the women's game exactly a level playing field though.

For England men to get to that level of one sidedness....we'd need a few unions to regress to amateur status. As much fun as it would smashing NZ by 60pts, it would soon get boring.

The gap in the ratings table between England and everyone else isn't that different from the gap between NZ Men and everyone else from 2011-15, though. The top 4 sides are pretty competitive, usually with NZ on top, but England have got their act together best coming out of the pandemic. It was great to see Italy doing well in the 6N, too.

With the English leap to full time contracts it's a bit lopsided though Poorfour. I'm all for a strong English side and it's actually perked my interest somewhat....they play some nice stuff. But, it's just not a level playing field.......I know that's not England's fault, but it's not good for the game surely?

Or is it? Will England's dominance drive other nations to offer up full time contracts?

I just think the current state is like men v boy....pardon the pun.

I'd have Willis at 6 and Curry at 7. Dombrandt 8 and Barbeary on the bench.

Jones will go Lawes, Curry, Dombrandt and Simmonds I reckon.

Lawes needs a break, apart from a couple of months injured he has been going for a few years now without any real downtime. A good chance to see what Willis can do at 6.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:With the English leap to full time contracts it's a bit lopsided though Poorfour. I'm all for a strong English side and it's actually perked my interest somewhat....they play some nice stuff. But, it's just not a level playing field.......I know that's not England's fault, but it's not good for the game surely?

Or is it? Will England's dominance drive other nations to offer up full time contracts?

I just think the current state is like men v boy....pardon the pun.

I hope that other teams will be spurred to offer up full time contracts - if not because of England's dominance/standard of rugby then because of the money.

I've been to a couple of England women's games now. One about 20 years ago (when a friends sister was playing) when it was in the stadium after the men's game with free entry and probably not more than a couple of hundred people watching (which included some of the men's team who were clearly happy to cheer them on). The second was the last home game this year at Welford Rd, with ~16k fans who paid to be there. I'd assume that game turned over £400k+ in ticket sales, and there will be more money for TV rights than in years gone by as well. If England can build on that the women's game will be generating good money for the RFU soon enough. As other nations realise pro women's rugby can be good and can make good money, I'm sure they will want to get involved.

I'd also add that there have been various serious and not so serious conversations about who should/should not be in the men's tournament. If that generates speculation when all teams are pro and doing everything they can to be as good as they can - you have to question how sustainable the women's 6 nations is if any of the teams don't bother to go pro. I can easily pro nations looking elsewhere for competitive matches if others don't go pro and get up to speed, and the likes of USA/Canada/NZ/etc do. They've already (rightly) separated themselves from the men's 6Ns window, and there's no need for them to do anything else just because it's what's traditional in the men's game. I'm not suggesting anything needs to change soon, but if other unions can't be bothered to invest and think they can send unprepared amateur teams at low cost, then bank the TV cheques as the game grows elsewhere... they probably ought to be dumped.

George Martin back for Tigers this weekend. Hopefully he can stay fit to feature in the squads over the summer.

If Watson or May could get fit before the seasons over that'd be a big boost too.

Big wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:With the English leap to full time contracts it's a bit lopsided though Poorfour. I'm all for a strong English side and it's actually perked my interest somewhat....they play some nice stuff. But, it's just not a level playing field.......I know that's not England's fault, but it's not good for the game surely?

Or is it? Will England's dominance drive other nations to offer up full time contracts?

I just think the current state is like men v boy....pardon the pun.

I hope that other teams will be spurred to offer up full time contracts - if not because of England's dominance/standard of rugby then because of the money.  

I've been to a couple of England women's games now.  One about 20 years ago (when a friends sister was playing) when it was in the stadium after the men's game with free entry and probably not more than a couple of hundred people watching (which included some of the men's team who were clearly happy to cheer them on).  The second was the last home game this year at Welford Rd, with ~16k fans who paid to be there.  I'd assume that game turned over £400k+ in ticket sales, and there will be more money for TV rights than in years gone by as well.  If England can build on that the women's game will be generating good money for the RFU soon enough.  As other nations realise pro women's rugby can be good and can make good money, I'm sure they will want to get involved.

I'd also add that there have been various serious and not so serious conversations about who should/should not be in the men's tournament.  If that generates speculation when all teams are pro and doing everything they can to be as good as they can - you have to question how sustainable the women's 6 nations is if any of the teams don't bother to go pro.   I can easily pro nations looking elsewhere for competitive matches if others don't go pro and get up to speed, and the likes of USA/Canada/NZ/etc do.  They've already (rightly) separated themselves from the men's 6Ns window, and there's no need for them to do anything else just because it's what's traditional in the men's game.  I'm not suggesting anything needs to change soon, but if other unions can't be bothered to invest and think they can send unprepared amateur teams at low cost, then bank the TV cheques as the game grows elsewhere...    they probably ought to be dumped.

Fair points Big. I certainly don't think the mens game is ideal at all with such a small pool of sides capable of realistically challenging for top honours. It's certainly an interesting debate anyway.

I think the women’s game has a good chance to establish itself as a sustainable professional sport.

We have to remember that it’s still very early days for professionalism - IIRC at the 2013 tournament there was only one professional player (Canada’s Magali Harvey).

Today we still have only a couple of hundred professional players worldwide, but the game is beginning to show that it can attract crowds. That’s likely to be the trigger for wider professionalism.

The challenge will be to find the space in a crowded schedule. I only manage to watch a couple of women’s games live each year; I’d like to watch more but I don’t have the time to follow both the men and the women properly. Moving the W6N to a slot after the men’s has reportedly been a games changer in terms of popularity and attendance, and the key for the women’s club game is probably to do something similar.

I think there will be an opportunity for this in the near future. The pressure to reduce the number of games the men are playing is likely to increase, and I can see the Premiership moving to a conference system before too long. That creates space to fill the gap with women’s professional rugby. As long as it’s done sensibly with salary cap aligned to crowd levels, and the clubs invest in building the audience the way they have for men’s rugby, I could see the women’s game being in great shape by the 2030s. It needs some commitment and organisation though.

Willis looks close to his best. Just affects so much of the game.

Willis looks close to his best. Just affects so much of the game.

Arundell has to be involved.....wow

I don't think I can remember a better individual try tbh. Again, just needs to tour and be capped ASAP.



Edit. Seen a number of posts now saying it's a young Cullen...and yes that's probably spot on for the style of the try.

Arundell should tour because he could realistically be a starting quality player in the next year as much as anything. He's got everything to be an incredible player at fullback or wing.

Alo seems to have found some form this season too. Possibility he may tour as back up?

king_carlos wrote:Arundell should tour because he could realistically be a starting quality player in the next year as much as anything. He's got everything to be an incredible player at fullback or wing.

The try at the weekend another absolute stunner. We needed something extra on the wing after the AIs and he could well be it. Even better let's pair him with Radwan on the wings. Steward will mop up everything from fullback and let's face it who's going to kick deep and loose to let Radwan and Arundell run it back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Alo seems to have found some form this season too. Possibility he may tour as back up?

He might get a go in the Baabaas game but who are you dropping to make room? Sinckler, Stuart and Heyes are the incumbents and then Collier is in good form as well. Alo is 28 but Heyes at 23 and Stuart at 25 are both longer term options also playing good rugby this season. Collier might be ruled out on age unfortunately for him, though 31 isn't old for a prop.

I'm thinking he looks in better form than Stuart and Heyes, Sinckler is guaranteed to be starting if fit. Both longer term options certainly but sometimes you've just got to go with who is performing well too. Not like he's on his last legs at 28.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm thinking he looks in better form than Stuart and Heyes, Sinckler is guaranteed to be starting if fit. Both longer term options certainly but sometimes you've just got to go with who is performing well too. Not like he's on his last legs at 28.

Not sure Alo is pulling up trees to the level I'd vault him to the front of the queue. Heyes comfortably dealt with Cian Healey at the weekend and is getting around the park well. Stuart seemed to turn a corner for England in the 6N, given the current state of Bath not sure you can read too much into his club form.

Alo has got Sale and Tigers before the end of the season. Show up well against Rodd and Genge and then it might be a different story. He's certainly worth a look in the Baabaas game though Sinckler and Stuart will both be around as their clubs won't make the playoffs.

I really hope that Eddie does pick Arundell for the summer tour, unlike some of the other players that have opted for other nations recently I think I would be genuinely be gutted if he lost out on him. We need more outside backs with attacking flair and raw pace, especially if we return to the Farrell/ Slade centre partnership.

I'd say Redpath is the only one I'd consider as opting for another country over England recently. Players such as Tompkins, Bayliss, White, etc were realistically nowhere near the squad when they opted elsewhere.

Arundell is a huge talent though you're right, Cumbrian. Unless he has a burning Tommy Reffell-esque desire to play for another nation he hasn't yet stated I'd be surprised if he opted elsewhere. From what I know of his upbringing he seems very much rooted in England and shouldn't be struggling to get a look in. Ali Crossdale trained with the squad in the back three for instance!

Arundell seems very much a Jones style player as well. Lightning quick, kicking game of a fullback, power to break tackles, very comfortable on the ball and distributing. It's the sort of all round package you often see in Aussie back three players that comes from many of them playing multiple sports - Union, league, Aussie rules - growing up.

Arundell reminds me a bit of Issy Dagg but with more pace. Which makes sense re the Cullen observation as Dagg sometimes reminded me of Cullen but without quite the same pace Cullen had at his peak!

You guys sure about Arundell? Hasn't he only played a handful of games?